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Psycho Nomad
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Posted - 2009.03.17 13:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Psycho Nomad on 17/03/2009 13:47:12 I've noticed quite a small difference between these turrets.
especially between the Dual 180s and the 220s (dual 180 'scouts' and the 220 Vulcs).
with a slightly higher Dmg multiplier and slightly lower tracking/RoF respectively upward through all 3 turrets in size.
Its just the actual difference Vs the Pgrid is a little to micro for me to discern without outside input as specifically as i would like.
I would like to know, if whoever may be reading this feels partial to passing out some much appreciated info, how the specific turret differences would be put into context within PVP mechanics.
Specifically fitted on the Stabber/Rupture/Cane.
As far as i can tell. The Dual 1800mm 'scout' ACs would be better against smaller/fast moving targets. (Frigs, fast cruisers size hulls, being the most effective against Frigs out of the three turret types (or am i wrong?)) The 220mm Vulcans, would still be effective against the afore mentioned hulls, yet with a slower tracking & higher dmg multiplier. Hence leaning to be more effective against Cruiser sized hulls. Specifically what would be the trade off ratio between less tracking capability Vs higher dps, vs frigs, and against cruisers? The 425mm 'scout' ACs would ideally be for BC sized hulls, although still be moderately capable against cruiser sized hulls. These turrets following the same pattern as the previous turrets in relation to effective targets ship size, only a 'step higher'.
This as far as i can tell is the 'basic' overview, from simple logic as to what the most 'supposed' specifics the different turrets would have.
So in a sense could be classed as theoretical. I'm looking for your input of actual field experience, how close to true my presumptions are and any 'filler' and tips to help me on my way to understanding the relationships and differences between these turrets.
so yeah... POST! ----- I corpse tank... Ships r for noobs. |
Lee Dalton
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:16:00 -
[2]
Just use 220mm.
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:21:00 -
[3]
I kinda did a personal in-depth analysis of medium blasters and autocannons last week and I found out that IMO, the largest turrets (425mm and heavy neutrons) don't deal enough DPS to justify their higher powergrid use. If you fit heavy ions/220mm, you have free powergrid for a tank, and if you survive long enough to squeeze off one more volley before getting popped, you'll deal the same amount of damage as the heavier guns with a lighter tank.
Also, projectile damage/RoF rigs are cheap as dirt which makes the smaller autocannons more attractive DPS-wise.
But in general you get the idea of heavier guns = less tracking and more damage. On the field I've never had tracking issues with dual 180mm/220mm autocannons, although I do remember 425mm ACs on a Hurricane having problems with orbiting targets at close range. I cant give you details as I can't quite remember the full situation.
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Asmodean Reborn
Kurtz's Kommandos
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Posted - 2009.03.17 16:34:00 -
[4]
Just fit 220s.
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.17 18:16:00 -
[5]
I find that bigger is better if you can fit it without sacrifices in other areas.
While tracking often gets mentioned, it's pretty grey area. If you're not hitting target with 425s, you're most likely not hitting with D180s either(say, AF is orbiting you, etc). In turn they give lesser ammo consumption, higher DPS and higher volley damage(which is useful even on ACs in certain cases).
Generally you'll end up with D180 on Stabber/Rupture, 220s on Vaga/Hurri, 425s on Sleip/Hurri.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.03.17 18:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/03/2009 18:20:24
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Generally you'll end up with D180 on Stabber/Rupture, 220s on Vaga/Hurri, 425s on Sleip/Hurri.
D180s on Vaga, 220s on Rupture actually, but yea, along these lines.
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Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2009.03.17 19:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/03/2009 18:20:24
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Generally you'll end up with D180 on Stabber/Rupture, 220s on Vaga/Hurri, 425s on Sleip/Hurri.
D180s on Vaga, 220s on Rupture actually, but yea, along these lines.
This. -- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Horizon Taker
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.03.17 20:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gort
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/03/2009 18:20:24
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Generally you'll end up with D180 on Stabber/Rupture, 220s on Vaga/Hurri, 425s on Sleip/Hurri.
D180s on Vaga, 220s on Rupture actually, but yea, along these lines.
This.
Quit eve, both of you.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.03.17 22:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Horizon Taker
Quit eve, both of you.
Even with both of us gone, some random noob would still own you.
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Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.03.17 22:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lee Dalton Just use 220mm.[/quote
This.
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McDaddy Pimp
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.18 04:22:00 -
[11]
180 or 220 on vagas/rupie (depends or ur pg). 425 for ratting/pve because of less ammo use. 220 on canes so u can still track frigs..
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Noskill McCheese
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.03.18 04:50:00 -
[12]
Oh hell no, if you don't have 425's on your cane you're doing it wrong. Stabber/vag shouldn't go higher than 220 tho.
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Horizon Taker
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.03.18 05:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Noskill McCheese Oh hell no, if you don't have 425's on your cane you're doing it wrong. Stabber/vag shouldn't go higher than 220 tho.
While this extreme, this is the extreme I appreciate. Sometimes though, double plated Hurricanes just have to fit 220's, but Hurricane should bring 425's to mind. A Stabber can't afford to go beyond 220's, though a Vagabond can be scary with 425's if done properly. 180's are simply for the situations where you are fitting a ridiculous amount of plates or something and you absolutely don't have any powergrid, or if you know 90% of your targets are going to be sub 10km and in frigates.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.03.18 06:45:00 -
[14]
Personally not a big fan of 425s unless I'm hunting BCs and BSs. So pretty much only use them on Hurricanes. Usually stick with the smaller two otherwise, even if I have the grid to fit larger.
Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.03.18 07:56:00 -
[15]
The only Minmatar ship I've ever fit 180's on is the Scimitar (used to make a great heavy tackler before speed nerf, and still not half bad), and even doing it on that ship made me cry. It reduces your most effective range with Barrage M down to around 15km, iirc.
The people who put 180s on a Vagabond either shouldn't be flying it to begin with, or are doing something like armor tanking it, and thus shouldn't be flying it.
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Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.03.18 10:55:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tefkros on 18/03/2009 10:56:39
Originally by: Grista The only Minmatar ship I've ever fit 180's on is the Scimitar (used to make a great heavy tackler before speed nerf, and still not half bad), and even doing it on that ship made me cry. It reduces your most effective range with Barrage M down to around 15km, iirc.
The people who put 180s on a Vagabond either shouldn't be flying it to begin with, or are doing something like armor tanking it, and thus shouldn't be flying it.
Witness what will soon be regarded as the greatest idiot on the EVE-O forums. For additional stupidity, his other comments go like this.
That said, I always fit 180mm if I have them in stock, 220mm and 425mm are second class solutions. Why? When a t1 cruiser puts a scram and web on your amazing Sleipnir or Vaga, or an AF on your super Hurricane, youŠll find out why. Suddently 25 extra dps and 300m extra optimal wonŠt seem so important anymore.
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Psycho Nomad
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Posted - 2009.03.18 12:12:00 -
[17]
ok hahaha. Seems it's still somewhat open for discussion then.
people seem to have given quite mixed responses. But i've gotten a general jist of:
"fit 220s" unless ur fitting a large plate tank, in which case fit dual 180s. And if your flying a Cane fit 425s. Allthough i've personally noticed, in pve anyway (as i've rarely been in pvp situations in a Cane where i can effectively test the dps output without it being overshadowed with higher dps boats in the fleet on a prime) that, 425s have a slower RoF, so even though their alpha is higher than 220s their dps is actually conciderably lower. IMO 220s actually take BS rats down 'quicker' than 425s simply because of the higher RoF. But of c/ they have trouble maintaining a 'reliably' decent dps on anything smaller.
Still, the most confusion remains with the 'minimal' difference between the dps output Vs tracking difference of 220s and dual 180s. So lets take OUT the Pgrid factor. What would be the best choice? as in taking in both factors on both turrets, which gives the best DPS output overall, across all circumstances? Or more simply if that question is a little to fuubared, which out of the two seem the most effective. I know this question seems rather exacting and fiddly but its essentially the question that been bothering me the most, and seems there is no 'straight' answer as you've all given quite personal, and inconsistent responses overall. ----- I corpse tank... Ships r for noobs. |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:19:00 -
[18]
Don't know if you should fit d180s these days. The Vaga used to fit d180s because during the nano-fest it traveled at such speeds that d180s with falloff rigs had a better damage curve than 220s. These days, who knows. It's a slower game, and that should favor the 220s. I'm sure someone has calculated the damage curves. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.03.18 18:19:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 18/03/2009 18:24:24
Originally by: Grista
The people who put 180s on a Vagabond either shouldn't be flying it to begin with, or are doing something like armor tanking it, and thus shouldn't be flying it.
Hehehe, actually the people fitting anything except 180s to their vagabonds shouldnt fly one.
Hint: If you have enough grid to fit a full rack of 220s instead of 2x 220s and 3x 180s, your fit is missing vital modules and gets soloed by frigates, ultimately just being a comedy killmail waiting to happen
Quote: These days, who knows. It's a slower game, and that should favor the 220s. I'm sure someone has calculated the damage curves.
On paper dps is not everything, the 180s make it easier to track at those moments where you are running full speed and need to hit small ships, and allow you to fit a medium neut without completely gimping your fit. The medium neut is mandatory with scrambling AFs these days, as they'll just laugh at your Warriors, and outrun your guns.
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Horizon Taker
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tefkros Edited by: Tefkros on 18/03/2009 10:56:39
Originally by: Grista The only Minmatar ship I've ever fit 180's on is the Scimitar (used to make a great heavy tackler before speed nerf, and still not half bad), and even doing it on that ship made me cry. It reduces your most effective range with Barrage M down to around 15km, iirc.
The people who put 180s on a Vagabond either shouldn't be flying it to begin with, or are doing something like armor tanking it, and thus shouldn't be flying it.
Witness what will soon be regarded as the greatest idiot on the EVE-O forums. For additional stupidity, his other comments go like this.
That said, I always fit 180mm if I have them in stock, 220mm and 425mm are second class solutions. Why? When a t1 cruiser puts a scram and web on your amazing Sleipnir or Vaga, or an AF on your super Hurricane, youŠll find out why. Suddently 25 extra dps and 300m extra optimal wonŠt seem so important anymore.
Aside from a vagabond, if you're not fitting a web on your Minmatar ship, you're probably doing it wrong. If a vagabond has something within 10km of it, it's probably dead anyways. Hurricane? Web. Stabber? Web. Muninn? If you're not sniping, web. Same with the rupture. I'll admit 425's can have some tracking issues, but I've never really had any problems in my Hurricane and Vagabond (when it's 425 fit, it's a specialized fit).
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.03.18 22:32:00 -
[21]
If in gang, you always fit 425 II's on a Hurricane; unless you are flying 2-3 plate trimarked monsters.
If solo, 180's on a Neut cane, 220's on a rep setup to save grid if needed, 425's on a gank fit.
These aren't hard and fast rules.
Something REALLY important, more important imo than what guns you fit:
Learn to control range and transversal
The downsides of upsizing your guns can be almost entirely mitigated by clever piloting.
[i] Ransom List Project: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=999677&page=1 |
Horizon Taker
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:00:00 -
[22]
ilu RedSplat
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Nexus Kinnon
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:10:00 -
[23]
~AWU V always fit 220mms to Ruptures and Hurricanes crew reppin'~
Originally by: Queue K'Umber It is unseemly when a player becomes a self-congratulatory poastaholic
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Nexus Kinnon
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:11:00 -
[24]
But d180s + med neut for vagas, you'll still get ****ed by nossing AFs if they get close but y'know
Originally by: Queue K'Umber It is unseemly when a player becomes a self-congratulatory poastaholic
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:49:00 -
[25]
Fit the biggest guns that your setup allows and don't listen to vaga pilots.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 03:20:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/03/2009 03:25:10
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon But d180s + med neut for vagas, you'll still get ****ed by nossing AFs if they get close but y'know
Its primary use is disabling their tanks, and dropping their MWD and/or tackle for a few seconds to get yourself out of the mess. The nos can help them out a bit there, but its typically not enough to run the AF on full capability, more so active tanking ones that can easily ignore your drone damage and the minimal dps bleeding through from turrets.
Proper choice of damage type and dispatching them from a distance is the best way to handle assault frigs, but that doesnt work always, especially if they come in packs. Good to have the neut onboard, but you'll still want to evade situations where you really need it.
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