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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.18 08:07:00 -
[1]
I've been getting very sick of people saying that you need 70gazillion SP to PVP properly and that it's so unfair and waa waa waah.
Normally I fly drakes and ewar frigates, so the bulk of my SP is in missiles, shields, ewar and drones - I know jack **** about guns or how to use them.
To prove a point I picked up some gunnery skillbooks last time I was in empire and trained up to fly a rifter with basic t1 generic guns.
Last night I flew into lowsec, bought myself 10 rifter hulls and lots of guns, scramblers and webbers and put myself together a cheap t1 rifter fit.
After a little roam back into nullsec I came across a Kestrel at a gate and locked him down and scrambled him. Now I'm a proud Caldari like my daddy and his daddy before him - missiles are in my blood and I had no idea what to do with guns whatsoever, so I closed in and started orbiting at 500m and opened fire.
Surprisingly enough he was up for it and did the exact same to me with his missiles. It was great fun and after taking a reasonable bite out of his shield, my rifter was eventually turned into floating space dust.
The point is that I have no more gunnery SP than a complete newbie wouldn't have after a day or so training.
Maybe if I actually knew how to use guns I might have had a better fight, but actually going out on a whim, training a little bit and going out hunting just for the hell of it was the most fun I've had in ages :)
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Logan Xerxes
Steel Soldier's Stainless St33l
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Posted - 2009.03.18 08:19:00 -
[2]
SP can only make you better at something up to a point. After that point SP's just allow for horizontal growth, not vertical. Once someone trains all the skills for a particular ship and/or setup to 5, they cannot get any better with it. All SP's aquired after this point just allow them to do something else.
There's also the goonswarm solution. Just be a T1 tackler for the older players who kill them for you.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.18 10:04:00 -
[3]
Being a smart player is and always has been more important than having lots of SPs.
If I had to choose between flying alongside a veteran player with a newly-created character and flying alongside a new player with a bought high SP character, I'd go with the vet every time.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.03.18 10:11:00 -
[4]
SP's give more speed, more armor, more shield, more firepower and more ship/fitting options. But they can't cure stupid or poor preparation. Hence a 3 day old rifter pilot can solo year old characters in certain situations. I agree with above, it's better to have a vet in a noob character than a noob in a vet character.
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Cromzor
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.18 13:17:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Cromzor on 18/03/2009 13:18:38 Just to play devils advocate: You lost. The player with more SP won. How does that prove your point?
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Psycho Nomad
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Posted - 2009.03.18 13:22:00 -
[6]
THIS WHOLE THREAD. completely!
i have to totally agree with this.
skills only allow for horizontal growth, where as very out of game intelligence and ability/skill accounts for vertical growth.
As i prime example, i fairly often beat 2-3 year old characters on singularity when i ask for a T1 1v1 frigate fight, even if they're rigged and im not, even if they're also overheating and i'm not. I'm pretty new (as in my SP are somewhere around 5 mill, easily 10-15% of the average SP per toon in eve) and i'm well aware of the fact winning is down to how effectively you use the right kind of strategy against a specific kind of target ship. The effectiveness of said strategies, and more importantly:
what they completely rest on is personal ability at being able to read, comprehend and assimilate the different readouts of all the different aspects of the game engine/ship aspects into an overall mental image and 'micro managing' them effectively on the fly/ in the heat of battle.
This in no way at all, or at most only minimally regards the actual in game skill points.
So what does that mean? Skill points open doors. Victory is a matter of intelect. Which is why, imo, eve is exactly how it is. ----- I corpse tank... Ships r for noobs. |
Tallaran Kouros
Caldari Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.18 13:46:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Tallaran Kouros on 18/03/2009 13:47:03
Originally by: Cromzor The player with more SP won. How does that prove your point?
Of course they did, but that wasn't what I was trying to prove.
A week ago I had the same amount of Minmatar and Gun SP as a complete newbie to the game - diddly squat.
I spent a couple days training the skills up and then got into a cheap frigate and went out to have a laugh, proving the point that you don't need lots of SP to enjoy PVP.
Sure I lost, but how do you know that's down to the lack of Minmatar and Gun SP and not down the the fact that being a Caldari/ewar player I have no idea how to fight with guns?
What's to say that if I knew how to fight with guns and fit a Minmatar ship then I wouldn't have taken him down?
But most importantly of all, it was *FUN* :) |
Cyprus Black
Caldari Elitist Jerks Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:37:00 -
[8]
Hi, can I pvp with my starting 50k SP? ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. |
Jolla Skyia
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Jolla Skyia on 18/03/2009 17:58:04
Originally by: Cyprus Black Hi, can I pvp with my starting 50k SP?
Strip off your miner laser add two named meta 2/3 guns to your noob ship with a warp scrambler in the mid. Fit something you like in the lows and go fight other noobs in their noob ships.
You wont find many fights, but you can find some here and there. It's a almost free way to learn some very basic PVP skills.
You can also use your noob ship and learn your directional scanner while you are training skills up. If you want to be good a PVP you NEED to learn to use your directional scanner very well.
While you might not be able to "attack" much as a total noob with 50k SP's you can still go play cat and mouse with other players in low sec. Don't try to fight them, just make your "somewhat" safe scanning spots and try to track them down. (nothing like a little risk to make you learn faster)
Half of PVP is finding the target, if you use your noob time learning the most valuable PVP skill in the game (directional scanner) then you will be that much further ahead as you train up your skill books.
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Seraph Castillon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.18 18:08:00 -
[10]
The SP myth as you call it does not say you can't fly in a frigate and get blown up in another frigate. It says that you, flying in your frigate with low SP, are no match for the dude that has been playing a year longer than you and puts a BC or some other skill intensive ship against your frigate. I'd like to see you get out of that if you already get blown up frigate vs frigate.
And you may say: "Pick your fights". But if you start thinking realisticly you'll know that you don't always have that option.
Yes you can pvp with low SP. Yes, you can get far by simply learning what to do when and how to handle your ship. But no, you can not pvp effectively against a player that also knows what he's doing, but has xx mil skillpoints on you. He has the ability to put a larger ship against you and you won't even be able to break his tank.
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Cordarouy Pants
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Posted - 2009.03.18 18:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cyprus Black Hi, can I pvp with my starting 50k SP?
Hi, yes.
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crockett EXE
Minmatar Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.03.18 18:24:00 -
[12]
Edited by: crockett EXE on 18/03/2009 18:24:01
Originally by: Cordarouy Pants
Hi, yes.
Hey man.. you hanging around local loc sec today? Our war is kinda dead now.. I'll come frig vs frig you if you want.
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Mik kyo
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.03.18 18:39:00 -
[13]
I'd argue that the better pvpers in this game are the ones that have been at a SP disadvantage in the past.
A bit like I find the best fps players are ones that have considerable experience playing on dialup connections.
The handicap forces you to be better in every way to stay competitive, the mediocre can get by if they have 80 million sp, with 3 million, they are soon weeded out.
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Bud Johnson
Capital Ships Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.18 18:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Seraph Castillon Edited by: Seraph Castillon on 18/03/2009 18:08:45 The SP myth as you call it does not say you can't fly in a frigate and get blown up by another frigate. It says that you, flying in your frigate with low SP, are no match for the dude that has been playing a year longer than you and puts a BC or some other skill intensive ship against your frigate. I'd like to see you get out of that if you already get blown up frigate vs frigate.
And you may say: "Pick your fights". But if you start thinking realisticly you'll know that you don't always have that option.
Yes you can pvp with low SP. Yes, you can get far by simply learning what to do when and how to handle your ship. But no, you can not pvp effectively against a player that also knows what he's doing, but has xx mil skillpoints on you. He has the ability to put a larger ship against you and you won't even be able to break his tank.
A 3 month old player can have just as much sp in the skills affecting their bc as a year old player.
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Seraph Castillon It says that you, flying in your frigate with low SP, are no match for the dude that has been playing a year longer than you and puts a BC or some other skill intensive ship against your frigate. I'd like to see you get out of that if you already get blown up frigate vs frigate.
Actually two characters 4 to 6 weeks old in T1 fittet T1 frigates, if piloted by players that know what they do, will take out in 2v1 most of the turret based battlecruisers, even T2 fitted, that you see around.
They may have problems with missile based BCs (depending on the fits) and with turret/drone based BCs that are specifically fit to fight frigates or that are very well flown. But against those they would most probably be able to disengage.
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:10:00 -
[16]
once you have propulsion jamming you can be useful, doubly so if you can use a sensor booster... --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
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Seraph Castillon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:14:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Seraph Castillon on 18/03/2009 23:14:29
Originally by: Bud Johnson A 3 month old player can have just as much sp in the skills affecting their bc as a year old player.
Yes ofcourse that is possible. But then again it just as possible that he has 3 times the skill points affecting his BC. You're just creating a hypothetical situation that doesn't make alot of sence in this discussion.
Originally by: Ami Nia Actually two characters 4 to 6 weeks old in T1 fittet T1 frigates, if piloted by players that know what they do, will take out in 2v1 most of the turret based battlecruisers, even T2 fitted, that you see around.
They may have problems with missile based BCs (depending on the fits) and with turret/drone based BCs that are specifically fit to fight frigates or that are very well flown. But against those they would most probably be able to disengage.
Yes, you may have a fellow noob also piloting a frigate to even the odds. But then again that BC pilot may call his corpmate in a drone boat, sending scout drones on your asses. And on top of that: Who is more likely to have a number of corpmates/friends to come and help him? The person who just joined the game or the one who has played it for a year or more?
Limited SP does not make you unable to PvP, but it handicaps you. Sure, you will always be able to create situations where you can take the upper hand, but so can others. And you will keep that handicap untill you get to the top of that intial pain-in-the-ass skill slope (cliff).
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Selia Evrion
Gallente Night-Stalkerz Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2009.03.19 03:18:00 -
[18]
I can't Pee Vee Pee even with loads of SP...
I jam/rep/scout for the people who can :D
desusigs |
Chevron7
Gallente Corp 1 Allstars PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.03.19 05:36:00 -
[19]
if you actually read your stuff up before making an awsomesauceuberleetcake thread like this you would have noticed that there is only a small generic group that will say something like that. The standard applies here yet again with someone giving the simple awnser for the uneducated here once again... indeed if you max out SP for a certain fit after that accumulating SP in other stuff wont help you better in that particular fit.
Oh and btwai :D keeping your pos's and ships from being stolen also greatly helps towards gaining the ultimate pvp satisfaction! without contracting eww diseases from greedy leaders that think a Titan is a "instant" win button lulz epic.
fail thread about something old but thats what CandyCane Alliance is for!
/Judas
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Vincent Death
Caldari K Directorate
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Posted - 2009.03.19 10:18:00 -
[20]
The high SP bullcrap always has been and always will be utter tripe. All you need is a ship and a good attitude towards losing and your all set for pvping.
My first ever kill was in a Condor without tackle.
The proper name for a social system based on political freedom is capitalism. |
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Nidel Shawen
Caldari UK1 Zero
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Posted - 2009.03.19 12:40:00 -
[21]
I have over 52 million SP and I cant PVP.... I try though!!! ;)
Logic would suggest the reverse is true!!!
Knowing your ships strengths and weakness, knowing your own stengths and weakness is what will "help" you fight effectively. SP cannot teach you this... only experience!!
Get in a ship you feel comfortable in. Get a solid pvp fit and go fight.... its the best way.
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Lola Fang
Space Assassination Service
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vincent Death The high SP bullcrap always has been and always will be utter tripe. All you need is a ship and a good attitude towards losing and your all set for pvping.
My first ever kill was in a Condor without tackle.
How did you stop them warping off? ---------------- "You lost your eye to a seagull dropping?," "Well," said the pirate, "it was my first day with my hook"
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Quebber
Cursed Souls Vort3x.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:37:00 -
[23]
no amount of SP can save u from dumbness! High SP ppl can do stupid things just as much as low SP players. |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Seraph Castillon And you may say: "Pick your fights". But if you start thinking realisticly you'll know that you don't always have that option.
I'd challenge that assertion. If you're in a frigate (which if we're talking about low-SP PvP, is the sensible option anyway) then you have almost complete freedom to pick your fights. Nothing can catch you at the gates, and if you're paying attention you can warp out when something appears on the overview, and you'll be in the warp tunnel long before they come close to acquiring a lock. Consequently, the only time you should really be shot at in a frigate is when you've seen a target and decided to engage. Which means you have picked that fight.
Besides, I'd say around 80% of PvP happens before the first shot is fired anyway - it's the assessment of the situation, setting up of initial positions, consideration of target fittings, capabilities and backup, and comparing these to your own abilities. You should have a full plan of action before executing it that results in you winning, and you only really need to deviate from this should the unexpected happen. Obviously the more complete your intelligence, the lower the chance of this happening and the more accurate your "I should be able to win this fight" judgement will be.
A frigate can definitely take down a battlecruiser, especially one that's not particularly set up for PvP. Against a skilled player with Warrior IIs, propulsion jamming and possibly neuts, a frigate will have a very tough time managing things. But against a player that is fitting all cap rechargers in the mids and fields three T1 medium drones, the frigate stands a good chance of victory (or in the worst case, disengaging).
Of course, you don't always know how the battlecruiser is going to be fitted in advance. But if you're interested in fun, rather than in killboard statistics, it's likely to be a good fight either way with you trying to evade fire from drones and guns while killing them off, then going to work on the BC itself and possible trying to disengage when things go bad. And even if you're interested in KB stats, then in terms of ISK efficiency (as opposed to K:D ratio) you can feel free to engage lots of battlecruisers in your little T1 frigate; even if you only win one in ten fights you'll still be way up in terms of damage done, and you'll have learned an awful lot for the experience.
I'm a big proponent of the view that being good at PvP is more a matter of attitude than a matter of skillpoints. Besides, if you get competent at PvP with mediocre skills, your performance will only rise when you get an extra 10% damage, tracking, speed, cap etc.
Quote: Yes you can pvp with low SP. Yes, you can get far by simply learning what to do when and how to handle your ship. But no, you can not pvp effectively against a player that also knows what he's doing, but has xx mil skillpoints on you. He has the ability to put a larger ship against you and you won't even be able to break his tank.
Against an older, veteran PvP player then it's likely you're going to lose - not just because of his extra SP, but also because of his extra experience. In this respect you have very little strengths compared to him to leverage. However, EVE PvP is still a rock/paper/scissors game at heart, and depending on his ship and setup you may well be able to get at the *****s in his armour with a small, fast frigate. Given the ubiquity of passive tanks on PvP setups too, you'll likely be able to break his tank so long as you can stop him from damaging you. A gank Harbinger (with medium drones) would definitely lose to an AB Rifter, even T1 fitted, if the Rifter got a warp scrambler on him and orbited at 1km while popping the drones first. |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lola Fang
Originally by: Vincent Death My first ever kill was in a Condor without tackle.
How did you stop them warping off?
You'd be surprised how sometimes people just don't even try to warp out, especially if the fight is close and both ships are entering hull at a similar time. Not that I'm recommending PvPing without a point in order to find out, but a few times I've accidentally solo PvPed in gang support ships sans tackle... around half of the people I was winning against just stayed there and popped, for whatever reason. And judging by the ships and the fact they pointed me, this wasn't just ganking carebears either.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.19 14:50:00 -
[26]
Edited by: chatgris on 19/03/2009 14:53:34 Edited by: chatgris on 19/03/2009 14:51:58 Sure, you can pvp with almost no skillpoints, but you will be severely handicapped.
A few things.. 1) I've fought a lot of frigs in fw, and I have *never* even come close to losing to a kestrel. Maybe that's because, guess what, I have a good set of *useful* support skills for the rifter.
2) Now, after about 7 months of playing the game, I finally have enough skillpoints to comfortably do level 4 missions (domi with sentries), AND pvp effectively in a rifter. I wrote up a post once calculating training time for gunnery support skills to 4, a races frig/cruiser/BS/weapons to 4, some T2 tanking skills, overheating abilities, standard drone skills, good nav skills, learning skills etc. I am nowhere near max skilled even for my rifter (minnie frigate at 4 still for example).
3) For me, pvping when I know that the only way I can succeed is if the other person is fail is NOT fun for me. It's just demoralizing. I've still got another month of skills until I will consider myself well specced for the rifter, and that's ignoring the fact that I have 2,165 SP in missiles.
Yes, experience helps a LOT. But if you are experienced with almost no SP, you will just know that hey, I have to run now, this isn't a fight I have a chance of winning. As opposed to having the SP AND experience to solo destroyers (sometimes even AC/blaster fit) and interceptors.
And before you call my bit of cruiser/BC/BS skills irrelvant for pvp, (and those aren't that long, it's all the support skills really), pvp needs ISK. And the most efficient casual method I have found for making isk is the good old fashioned level 4 mission with salvaging and loot selling.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.19 15:00:00 -
[27]
And as to my 6 months of skill queueing, here is my old post I found on eve-search.
---------------------------------------------------
Gunnery support skills to 4 takes 21 days on their own! I've probably put a similar amount into T2 drones, and 16 days to get T2 armor tanking skills.
We're up to 58 days already.
Then there is about a month of cap and navigation skills, not to mention the 15 days required to get energy management to 5 so you can overheat your equipment (unless you like someone webbing you before you can get to them, cause guess what they can overheat).
Up to 103 days.
how about one races T1 ships (frig/cruiser/bc/bs) to level 4? (cause just flying frigates can be boring). That's another 20 days. Even if you only wanted to fly frigs, and ran right for T2 ships, what about cash? The easiest way to make cash for a combat pilot is level 4's, and they are most efficiently run in a BS. So for variety and income, I don't think that having 4 classes of ships is that unreasonable.
123 days.
Not to mention the 20 days initially required to get the basic learning skills (4/4) to learn at the pace I described above.
143 days.
another 2-5 days for cybernetics and science... (just for +4's)
147 days.
Wanna fit stuff on your ship? Eng 5 + electronics 5 + weapon upgrades 5 + AWU 4. 26 days
173 days.
All this, to fly once races (god forbid minmatar with split weapons) T1 properly fitted and supported ships and gear, with a smattering of T2 (drones and tank). Almost 6 months, and I'm sure I've forgotten a few things anyways.
And there, you have basic T2 drone and tank skills, some overheating. Weapons are still T1, which are more expensive when you die, and not as effective.
Seriously, unless you want to just be stuck in small ships, or be at a huge disadvantage for small fights when you can't even overload your hardeners, what do you do? I really don't see an alternate path.
And even WITH all this, you are still outclassed by T2 ships, T1 ships trained to level 5, better support skills and T2 attack skills. But after the initial 6 months, with basic skills, you at least stand a chance...
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Wensley
Minmatar The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.03.19 15:01:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Wensley on 19/03/2009 15:00:59 Its not the number of skill points that counts, its what you do with them. With about 5 million skill points you can be a highly competent frigate pilot with all the relevant skills trained up to IV. Sure, you'll have a hard time beating people who have those skills at higher levels but most skills beyond this point no longer relate to the ship in question. As a bonus, the time that you've spent in your frigate while you train up those skills will help you understand its strengths and weaknesses and consequently you'll learn how to get the most out of it on the battlefield. So, yeah, skillpoints are important. Without them you can't fly your ship well but trust me, you can have bottomless reserves of skillpoints and not know how to fly your ship. Focus your in and out of game training and you'll get great results. With 14 million skill points I only fly frigates and cruisers. I have a battlecruiser and just about the skills to fly it but not yet the skills to effectively pilot it, so I don't.
If you want to learn about flying gunships, especially Rifters, why not check out my Rifter guide? http://wensley.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/the-rifter-guide-solo-pvp/ (Yeah, yeah, shameless plug.)
Wensley: The Pirate Diaries |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:28:00 -
[29]
When I was 6 months I ransomed BC, HACs in my celestis.
Tactics and fitting > sp Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
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Vincent Death
Caldari K Directorate
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Posted - 2009.03.19 22:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lola Fang How did you stop them warping off?
My fleet did fit tackle ;)
The proper name for a social system based on political freedom is capitalism. |
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