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pniz
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:52:00 -
[1]
Ive been thinking about hoping into a carrier, i got caldari bs lvl5 and also minmatar bs lvl5 dont know which carrier to choose nidhoggur or chimera? i have better skills for armor tanking, is it worth training the shield tanking skills for the chimera instead of getting a nidhoggur?
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arbiter reborn
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:39:00 -
[2]
the nidhoggur is considerd the worst carrier but it can actually tank better with rreppers off than a thanny, it also has imo a proper carrier bonus i often fit 2 arnor and 1 shield remote rep,which works very nicley, the main prob with the chimera is the shield rr bonus if you run alot of shield gangs go for that, but in gonna say i prefer the nid its the best logistics carrrier and has the tank when you need it
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:48:00 -
[3]
You should be shield tanking your Niddy, so I say go for whichever one you want. More gangs armor tank so the niddy is the more obvious choice, but it all depends: do you fly with active shield tankers or RR armor gangs?
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis SIRRIUS.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:48:00 -
[4]
Considering the Carrier is a fleet ship and work really well in RR carrier gangs/fleets/blob, Nid.
Local tank = who cares in bigger fleet battles. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Solid Prefekt
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:58:00 -
[5]
I thought this was a post on which carrier was worst. I would have to give (the loser award) to the Niddy.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:04:00 -
[6]
There's tradeoffs. The Niddy is great for POS repping. The Chimera's great for actually surviving a battle. I've heard (from more than one Blob-FC) that the Right Answer is to immediately primary Niddys whenever you see them. There's two reasons: - You can primary and kill a full health Niddy faster than you can finish a Chimera down to quarter shields. This seemed to hold up pretty well during Armageddon day (about the only way anyone can ever fully 'compare' the two carriers). - The Niddy gives great RR bonuses to everyone else. When you have a Chimera and a Niddy, the Chimera effectively ends up with two tanking bonuses and the Niddy with none. (NoNah, that was a great way of putting it).
The Niddy is (numerically) inferior in pretty much every way (from sensor strength to hitpoints) to all the other carriers - but I T S
F R E A K I N G
V E R T I C A L !
And this counts for a lot. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis SIRRIUS.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Niddy is (numerically) inferior in pretty much every way (from sensor strength to hitpoints) to all the other carriers - but I T S
F R E A K I N G
V E R T I C A L !
And this counts for a lot. :)
-Liang
Unless I've seriously lost my mind, isn't the Nag the Vertical Dread and the Niddy is more like.
F R E A K I N G H O R I Z O N T A L
Personally, I'd rate the Thanny as the worst Carrier, due to the least useful bonus. Yay a DPS bonus on a giant logistics ship. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Taius Pax
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Niddy is (numerically) inferior in pretty much every way (from sensor strength to hitpoints) to all the other carriers - but I T S
F R E A K I N G
V E R T I C A L !
And this counts for a lot. :)
-Liang
Unless I've seriously lost my mind, isn't the Nag the Vertical Dread and the Niddy is more like.
F R E A K I N G H O R I Z O N T A L
Personally, I'd rate the Thanny as the worst Carrier, due to the least useful bonus. Yay a DPS bonus on a giant logistics ship.
Nid is horizontal, Nag is vertical.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/03/2009 01:38:28
Originally by: Artemis Rose Unless I've seriously lost my mind, isn't the Nag the Vertical Dread and the Niddy is more like.
F R E A K I N G H O R I Z O N T A L
Hmmm.... I thought it was vertical. Whoops.
Quote: Personally, I'd rate the Thanny as the worst Carrier, due to the least useful bonus. Yay a DPS bonus on a giant logistics ship.
I don't disagree that the Thanny is lacking, I do disagree that it's the worst carrier. Either way, the other two carriers are obvious wins and these two are obvious fails.
-Liang
Ed: Quoting fail. I'm a double fail today! Awesome! -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
TrollmoreX
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Posted - 2009.03.19 06:09:00 -
[10]
I hear pro niddy pilots fit a multispec II in their 5th midslot.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Destructive Influence KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: TrollmoreX I hear pro niddy pilots fit a multispec II in their 5th midslot.
oh nice. . .
I would go for the Chimera. . .the resistance bonus is the single best thing for a cap. Archon and Chimera reprisent the best of carriers, Niddy and Thanny are both worse off. So in your case - go for the Chimera. -----------
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Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/03/2009 01:38:28
Originally by: Artemis Rose Unless I've seriously lost my mind, isn't the Nag the Vertical Dread and the Niddy is more like.
F R E A K I N G H O R I Z O N T A L
Hmmm.... I thought it was vertical. Whoops.
Quote: Personally, I'd rate the Thanny as the worst Carrier, due to the least useful bonus. Yay a DPS bonus on a giant logistics ship.
I don't disagree that the Thanny is lacking, I do disagree that it's the worst carrier. Either way, the other two carriers are obvious wins and these two are obvious fails.
-Liang
Ed: Quoting fail. I'm a double fail today! Awesome!
I find it disturbing that people who donŠt even know how a ship looks like, feel entitled to comment on its abilities based on what they "heard" or what their EFT sheets told them.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.19 14:18:00 -
[13]
It's pretty even - nid is very useful when fitted correctly, unfortunately nobody ever seems to do so.
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Inertial
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 14:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sokratesz It's pretty even - nid is very useful when fitted correctly, unfortunately nobody ever seems to do so.
I am about 200-300 days away from a Nidhoggur, care to give me a useful fit?
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.19 15:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Inertial
Originally by: Sokratesz It's pretty even - nid is very useful when fitted correctly, unfortunately nobody ever seems to do so.
I am about 200-300 days away from a Nidhoggur, care to give me a useful fit?
[Nidhoggur, Armour] Capital Armor Repairer I Damage Control II Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II ECCM - Ladar II
Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [empty high slot]
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
[Nidhoggur, Shield] True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Capital Shield Booster I Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II ECCM - Ladar II
Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [empty high slot]
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:01:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Atius Tirawa I would go for the Chimera. . .the resistance bonus is the single best thing for a cap. Archon and Chimera reprisent the best of carriers, Niddy and Thanny are both worse off. So in your case - go for the Chimera.
The resistance bonus isn't as important as the ability to rep. The energy transfer bonus isn't the most useful bonus. The chimera is a shield tanker in an armor tanking world. The Chimera is probably the worst carrier in a fleet.
Imho I would standardize on an armor tanking cap fleet. If you must support shield tankers (hopefully only battleships) then nid & thanny are the best. Archon if armor tanking is the only concern.
Chimeras can be ignored because at worst they'll just be trying to shield rep other armor tankers.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Crackzilla
The resistance bonus isn't as important as the ability to rep. The energy transfer bonus isn't the most useful bonus. The chimera is a shield tanker in an armor tanking world. The Chimera is probably the worst carrier in a fleet.
That is a plain lie. Half the titans shield buffer, phoenixes and chimeras are very common. Shield rr has the advantage of instant effect, and when it comes down to it, any rr is good rr.
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 19/03/2009 16:11:13 I would take the Nidh over the Chimera. The Nidh is great for small cap gangs, but if your gonna get in a big capital blob for POS warfare just train for amarr caps and be happy. Seriously, whats another 30-40 days of training anyway?
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:21:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 16:25:28 Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 16:24:04
Originally by: Sokratesz That is a plain lie. Half the titans shield buffer, phoenixes and chimeras are very common. Shield rr has the advantage of instant effect, and when it comes down to it, any rr is good rr.
And the best tanking motherships are usually shield tankers. But this isn't the normal cap fleet. Phoenixes have their own set of issues.
Having to support chimeras mean that thannys and nids have to split their remote reps slots between armor and shield. Most fights I've ending up using shield & armor remote reps on mostly armor tankers and wishing I just had to support armor tanking. I'd rather have 3x or 4x remote armor reps on someone then just 2x.
Saying any remote rr is good rr is like saying that a sniper bs fleet should carry both remote armor and shield transfers to support the ravens. Better to standardize.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:36:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/03/2009 16:37:33
Originally by: Tefkros I find it disturbing that people who donŠt even know how a ship looks like, feel entitled to comment on its abilities based on what they "heard" or what their EFT sheets told them.
Unlike some of you, I took the opportunity to fly all the cap ships in the giant glorious cluster**** cap battle that was known as Armageddon day. Pardon me if my memory is a bit shakey on the look of the ship. ;-)
However, I find it amusing that you feel that someone *shouldn't* look at a rock teetering on the edge of a cliff and say "gee whiz, that might fall down on someone's head if it were to be pushed!"
It basically comes down to this: The Chimera is a 'selfish' ship, and the Niddy is a 'selfless' ship. And nice guys finish last.
-Liang
Ed: ALSO, I have been involved in a fairly significant number of cap battles on TQ. I suppose the biggest there was 150-250 caps on our side. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liang Nuren The Chimera is a 'selfish' ship, and the Niddy is a 'selfless' ship.
Another reason why I dislike the Chimera and the Archon. At least the archon can tank properly. That Chimera tank isn't going to help my armor tanker.
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Rapt Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.19 17:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sokratesz
[Nidhoggur, Armour] Capital Armor Repairer I Damage Control II Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II ECCM - Ladar II
Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [empty high slot]
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
[Nidhoggur, Shield] True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Capital Shield Booster I Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II ECCM - Ladar II
Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [empty high slot]
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Anyone who shield tanks a Nid honestly deserves to be primaried and popped. I personally prefer the triage-dual capital rep method so you at least have a semblance of survivability in smaller engagements.
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Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.03.19 17:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tefkros
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/03/2009 01:38:28
Originally by: Artemis Rose Unless I've seriously lost my mind, isn't the Nag the Vertical Dread and the Niddy is more like.
F R E A K I N G H O R I Z O N T A L
Hmmm.... I thought it was vertical. Whoops.
Quote: Personally, I'd rate the Thanny as the worst Carrier, due to the least useful bonus. Yay a DPS bonus on a giant logistics ship.
I don't disagree that the Thanny is lacking, I do disagree that it's the worst carrier. Either way, the other two carriers are obvious wins and these two are obvious fails.
-Liang
Ed: Quoting fail. I'm a double fail today! Awesome!
I find it disturbing that people who donŠt even know how a ship looks like, feel entitled to comment on its abilities based on what they "heard" or what their EFT sheets told them.
You must be new here.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.03.19 18:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rapt Industries
Originally by: Sokratesz
[Nidhoggur, Armour] Capital Armor Repairer I Damage Control II Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II ECCM - Ladar II
Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [empty high slot]
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
[Nidhoggur, Shield] True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Capital Shield Booster I Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II ECCM - Ladar II
Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [empty high slot]
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Anyone who shield tanks a Nid honestly deserves to be primaried and popped. I personally prefer the triage-dual capital rep method so you at least have a semblance of survivability in smaller engagements.
All the numbers I run suggest it tanks much better with shields than with armor. Granted, I don't fly one (yet), but I'm pretty sure that if you armor tank it, it's pretty much the same as a thanny (2300ish), while if you shield tank it, you can get close to 3600.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.19 18:32:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 18:34:15
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert it tanks much better with shields than with armor. Granted, I don't fly one (yet), but I'm pretty sure that if you armor tank it, it's pretty much the same as a thanny (2300ish), while if you shield tank it, you can get close to 3600.
cap stability (armor) > burst tank (shield)
I don't have eft here, but I'll bet the shield setup isn't cap stable. Everytime someone shield tanks a nid god kills a kitten.
*maybe* a shield tank is viable in a suicide-triage run with a small gang. maybe. Or undock games. Otherwise armor is better.
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.19 19:14:00 -
[26]
To survive in a carrier against a fleet of battleships or dreads you relu entirely on resists and your fellow carrier pilots to rep you, so local tank is irrelevant, and 1 shield tank module is far superior to 1 armor tanking module even with lows full of CPRs, in both resistances and local tank. Were I to fly a Niddy I wouldn't give up the extra cap regen that comes with a shield tank, because remote repping is far more important. The fact that Minmatar lean toward shield tanking as well just further supports this.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.19 19:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Crackzilla Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 18:34:15
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert it tanks much better with shields than with armor. Granted, I don't fly one (yet), but I'm pretty sure that if you armor tank it, it's pretty much the same as a thanny (2300ish), while if you shield tank it, you can get close to 3600.
cap stability (armor) > burst tank (shield)
I don't have eft here, but I'll bet the shield setup isn't cap stable. Everytime someone shield tanks a nid god kills a kitten.
*maybe* a shield tank is viable in a suicide-triage run with a small gang. maybe. Or undock games. Otherwise armor is better.
A shield tank can have much much more cap than an armour tank. Cap power relays are your friend. If you want to know why, eve search for my name.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.19 19:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Saying any remote rr is good rr is like saying that a sniper bs fleet should carry both remote armor and shield transfers to support the ravens. Better to standardize.
That is a fail analogy.
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Rapt Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.19 19:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
Originally by: Rapt Industries
Originally by: Sokratesz
Anyone who shield tanks a Nid honestly deserves to be primaried and popped. I personally prefer the triage-dual capital rep method so you at least have a semblance of survivability in smaller engagements.
All the numbers I run suggest it tanks much better with shields than with armor. Granted, I don't fly one (yet), but I'm pretty sure that if you armor tank it, it's pretty much the same as a thanny (2300ish), while if you shield tank it, you can get close to 3600.
The reality is I'd suggest this is a case where superior numbers look great on paper, but in reality are functionally wrong. Probably the biggest problem is that the majority of small gang engagements are going to specialize in either armor or shield tanking, and I have yet to experience one in two years that choose shields.
I'm cap stable running two self reppers and can sustain 11000DPS peak in triage, 3000DPS outside triage. Obviously I'm going to be neuted, but the reality is I don't need ECCM as I'm immune to ewar and have an effective HP over 1 million. The build you just linked for shield tanking has 723,782 effective hit points and a peak shield DPS tanking capability of 1495, assuming you have ALL skills at level 5. Not only is my build vastly cheaper without using faction modules, but it's survivability is twice what yours is outside of triage, and almost 8x better tanking in triage. Ultimately this means in a small engagement (1-2 carriers, 15-30 BS's) you will simply be primaried and brought down without even having the ability to heal anyone but yourself while I happily self-rep and keep every ship in my fleet armor-happy. I would probably win without losing a single ship.
The reality is that your armor build is flawed, I would always recommend two capital armor reps unless you are in a very large fleet engagement (see: 20+ capital ships) and the odds of you being primaried is minimal. And, well.. Nidhoggur's are usually the first target for me to slap a few vollies at, and if they start shield boosting they would definately be called primary and popped quickly without lots of support.
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Rapt Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.19 19:36:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Rapt Industries on 19/03/2009 19:36:53
Originally by: EFT Warrior To survive in a carrier against a fleet of battleships or dreads you relu entirely on resists and your fellow carrier pilots to rep you, so local tank is irrelevant, and 1 shield tank module is far superior to 1 armor tanking module even with lows full of CPRs, in both resistances and local tank. Were I to fly a Niddy I wouldn't give up the extra cap regen that comes with a shield tank, because remote repping is far more important. The fact that Minmatar lean toward shield tanking as well just further supports this.
Absolutely false. I've watched a single Triage carrier tank a 30+ BS sniper fleet WHILE remote repping a dread that was slowly pegging BS's at range. Against a fleet of dreads, yes, but a single properly fitted triage carrier is absolutely amazing support on the battlefield, ESPECIALLY if the enemy BS fleet is stupid enough to primary it.
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