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Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 15:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
"But wait!", you say, "The other guns aren't broken! Just hybrids are!"
Yes...maybe not entirely but you are correct.
What I am going to attempt to do here is to redefine the way that the three turret based weapons of EVE could possibly all be re-tuned to better suit all their existences and balance them out.
Range:
First of all I think all three of the gun types should have similar potential ranges to work with but HOW they work in those ranges can be different. This section is rather simple and is similar to what we know and love today.
- Hybrids: Balanced between optimal and falloff.
- Projectiles: Very little optimal, very high falloff.
- Lasers: Very high optimal, very low falloff.
Tracking
As it pertains to tracking, you have to be careful with how things were built. For instance, speed can counter act low tracking.
- Hybrids:
- -Rails: High Tracking
- -Blasters: Low Tracking
- Projectiles:
- -Artillery: Low Tracking
- -Autocannons: High Tracking
- -Lasers: Mid level tracking for all
Here is my reasoning. Looking at rails and arty I figured that rails should have higher tracking and projectiles low based on their sizes. For instance 425mm rails compared to 1400mm arty. What I thought is that the sheer size of the arty should make their movement very difficult and thus make their tracking very low. While the railguns could be argued to also be very large and requiring lots of equipment for the magnetic firing systems I still think that the size factor of arty wouldn't scale the same as would thus lead to MUCH worse tracking as larger sizes. In this plan for tracking, however, I could also accept lasers and hybrids swapping places based on the arguments that lasers need even less equipment and are thus smaller and easier to move. In terms of blasters it is assumed that most things that are using blasters are built up like a brick and thus will get in the face of their enemies, web the **** out of them and take a shotgun to their face. For this reason I propose that Gallente and Minmatar switch places in regard to their ewar styles as it pertains to points and webs. Besides, the fed navy already have the best webs, having the Gallente specialize in them would just make more sense. The high tracking speed needs to still be on the autocannons for the sake of Minmatar's fast skirmisher style of attacking. Anything otherwise would likely kill off ships like the Vagabond.
Damage and RoF
This should be rather similar to what we have now with only a few tweaks.
- Hybrids:
- -Rails: High RoF, Low volley
- -Blasters: Low RoF, High volley
- Projectiles:
- -Artillery: Low RoF, High volley
- -Autocannons: High RoF, Low volley
- Lasers: Balanced RoF and volley
This combined with the proposed changes above should give each of the turrets a distinct feel. It would give PVPers a blasters and arty for high volley and suicide ships and it would give them rails and ACs for high DPS ships. Lasers could then be used to fill in any other gaps in the middle.
Wrap Up
All of the above styles to turrets would assume that ships are re-balanced to suit them. For instance giving blaster boats tracking, buffer HP, and web range bonuses, giving rails and autocannons damage bonuses, giving arty tracking bonuses, etc. It is also assumed that they are balanced to fit around each other. Lasers and Hybrids should get a slightly higher base damage to compensate for their forced damage types and things like the high tracking of rails and low tracking of arty would be balanced against each other of course so that you don't have rails tracking as much as autocannons and you don't have blasters tracking as slow as arty. The ranges can also be tweaked a bit too. While the trend for projectiles will be "low optimal, high falloff" they can have the "short range" guns be a bit closer to having more falloff and the "long range" guns having a bit more optimal. This should already be something that we're used to in projectiles and I recommend something similar to the other two gun types.
And so finally that's it. Go ahead and throw your crap at it. Good ideas? Bad Ideas? Why?
-Xerc
P.S. +1 to CCP's web team, draft saved this topic from certain doom. The Drake is a Lie |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
726
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
"You" seem to "figure" a lot. It's nice to have opinions. Keep it up. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
205
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Posted - 2012.04.30 16:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
There's a few issues in here:
1) You didn't split pulse and beam lasers 2) Low tracking short range weapons (as you've suggested for blaster) means they won't ever be able to hit anything without heavy manual piloting. A single web would shut down a blaster ship. 3) High tracking long range isn't necessary as distance mitigates transversal velocity 4) Hybrids are balanced for optimal/fallof, should they not also be balanced for tracking and balanced for damage/rof?
This is a discussion that needs to happen (though it should be in the F&I forum, not GD), but not the right conclusions. |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:There's a few issues in here:
1) You didn't split pulse and beam lasers 2) Low tracking short range weapons (as you've suggested for blaster) means they won't ever be able to hit anything without heavy manual piloting. A single web would shut down a blaster ship. 3) High tracking long range isn't necessary as distance mitigates transversal velocity 4) Hybrids are balanced for optimal/fallof, should they not also be balanced for tracking and balanced for damage/rof?
This is a discussion that needs to happen (though it should be in the F&I forum, not GD), but not the right conclusions.
1) In cases where I grouped lasers together without breaking pulses and beams apart I mean to say that that both would be using the same general philosophy but obviously tuned relatively for short and long range.
2) The way I've designed blaster boats in this plan is that they don't move much to begin with. Compliment the existing style that Gallente have with heavy armor with trimarks and 1600mm plates. Give they very heavy buffers and long range webs to pull targets in so that they may be properly pummeled. This style means you aren't going to orbit, you are going to simply crawl up to them and unload without impunity once you've brought them down to your level of speed.
3) While this is true it can provide some relief in mid range situations where you get caught in situations you don't expect. Or perhaps allows for rails to be used in the case where you want to do max damage with antimatter and are thus pulled in closer by the range penalty. Let rails be the skirmisher weapon for Gallente and Caldari.
4) The same could be said for how I did lasers but in reality people tend to favor the polarizations far more often. The real challenge is taking the balanced role I proposed for lasers and making them worth using over the other two weapon types in certain situations. Maybe the simplicity of their play style could be enough? Point is, I made hybrids the way I did because it seems to flow more easily with the way hybrids are already designed and where CCP seems to be going with them. But you are right in saying that hybrids could be the turret of choice for balance and laser instead could get the properties I gave hybrids (except for the range concepts). Making pulse lasers into massive shotguns affixed to golden bricks of doom would better compliment the style of ships like the Abaddon for instance. The Drake is a Lie |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
These changes only enforce the status quo, they don't fix anything. If anything these hybrid changes will make them even less useful than they are now. |
Hayaishi
Aperture Harmonics K162
105
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
rails as "high dps" along with ACs? wut? |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
657
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
ALL GUNS ARE FINE.
Now fix the ships. CISPA - Readin' your secret corptheft mails since 2012 |
Alara IonStorm
2050
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Know what would be interesting. Lasers are supposed to be high RoF DPS Pumps.
I say make them solid beam and remove volley. Make there DPS the Volley and don't break the beam until you stop firing or are destroyed.
That would be unique.
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Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hayaishi wrote:rails as "high dps" along with ACs? wut?
Not quite so bluntly but yes.
Rails would be compared to beams and arty in regard to how fast their RoF would be, what their range should be and what their tracking should be. They will be DPS guns like ACs but they will be far from the same. The Drake is a Lie |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Know what would be interesting. Lasers are supposed to be high RoF DPS Pumps.
I say make them solid beam and remove volley. Make there DPS the Volley and don't break the beam until you stop firing or are destroyed.
That would be unique.
That it would and that sounds awesome but I think the hamsters would cry unless CCP could refactor how damage is applied in a constant manner like that. The Drake is a Lie |
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Par'Gellen
29
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Something is wrong with guns? To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Something is wrong with guns?
Yes, it's half the reason Minmatar is FOTM and why a lot of the Gallente pilots are still whining about Tallest being away cause they don't think hybrids are fixed yet.
I am very much in agreeance that ships really do need to be fixed around the turrets they use for my or any other plan to work including CCP's.
Thankfully the hybrid whiners seemed to have shut up since fanfest. The Drake is a Lie |
Alara IonStorm
2051
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:That it would and that sounds awesome but I think the hamsters would cry unless CCP could refactor how damage is applied in a constant manner like that. Nothing needs to be done. Remove the cycle animation from the turret and make it glow like when you activate a cloak. Do it for cosmetic reasons because a one second cycle would be annoying as hell. Then make the volley every second.
Nothing needs to be seriously canged in Damage Calculation. 1 Second Volley and no halting of the Laser Animation till you turn of the guns. |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Xercodo wrote:That it would and that sounds awesome but I think the hamsters would cry unless CCP could refactor how damage is applied in a constant manner like that. Nothing needs to be done. Remove the cycle animation from the turret and make it glow like when you activate a cloak. Do it for cosmetic reasons because a one second cycle would be annoying as hell. Then make the volley every second. Nothing needs to be seriously changed in Damage Calculation. 1 Second Volley and no halting of the Laser Animation till you turn of the guns.
Now that doesn't sound half bad. I already know that CCP is incapable of making continuous effects otherwise you wouldn't get miners and strip miners "resetting" every once in a while but I will admit they've gotten much closer than when I started EVE in QR.
The 1 second thing shouldn't be too bad for damage calculations and the one second thing could be used for cap usage calculations as well.
I think we got a winner here :D The Drake is a Lie |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
154
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Xercodo wrote: In terms of blasters it is assumed that most things that are using blasters are built up like a brick and thus will get in the face of their enemies, web the **** out of them and take a shotgun to their face.
Have you ever actually flown a blaster boat? 'Built up like a brick,' 'get in the face of their enemies,' and 'Blaster' don't belong in the same sentence. It can be fast, it can be tough, or it can melt face; pick 2.
As for giving the shortest range weapon the worst tracking... Yeah, that's gonna work well. |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
VaMei wrote:Xercodo wrote: In terms of blasters it is assumed that most things that are using blasters are built up like a brick and thus will get in the face of their enemies, web the **** out of them and take a shotgun to their face. Have you ever actually flown a blaster boat? 'Built up like a brick,' 'get in the face of their enemies,' and 'Blaster' don't belong in the same sentence. It can be fast, it can be tough, or it can melt face; pick 2. As for giving the shortest range weapon the worst tracking... Yeah, that's gonna work well.
The plan is built for the latter two. Hence the suggestion for web range bonuses.
Does no one understand the concept of "hold him down while I beat the **** out of him"? The Drake is a Lie |
Nomistrav
High Flyers RED.OverLord
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gallente finally get an edge to put them back in the field as a valid combatant and this guy wants to **** it all up; in the General Discussion no less!
Apart from this outrageous insult, let me explain something (and this was explained to me by other players) which is more likely to happen; bringing Hybrids in line with everything else (which is now has been, thank you CCP) or bringing everything else HIGHER than the Hybrid fix to put Hybrids back in their perpetual state of neglect?
Further more, and let me put this in big letters so everyone can see this:
Go fly something that is truly broken, like Gallente/Hybrids -before- the fix, then come back here with your opinions. |
Err0r404
Pipeliner Inc. A Number One
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Xercodo wrote:That it would and that sounds awesome but I think the hamsters would cry unless CCP could refactor how damage is applied in a constant manner like that. Nothing needs to be done. Remove the cycle animation from the turret and make it glow like when you activate a cloak. Do it for cosmetic reasons because a one second cycle would be annoying as hell. Then make the volley every second. Nothing needs to be seriously changed in Damage Calculation. 1 Second Volley and no halting of the Laser Animation till you turn of the guns.
put quad beams on a navy omen, turn off activation timer display, enjoy? |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nomistrav wrote:Gallente finally get an edge to put them back in the field as a valid combatant and this guy wants to **** it all up; in the General Discussion no less! Apart from this outrageous insult, let me explain something (and this was explained to me by other players) which is more likely to happen; bringing Hybrids in line with everything else (which is now has been, thank you CCP) or bringing everything else HIGHER than the Hybrid fix to put Hybrids back in their perpetual state of neglect? Further more, and let me put this in big letters so everyone can see this: Go fly something that is truly broken, like Gallente/Hybrids -before- the fix, then come back here with your opinions.
No this guy has never flown a hybrid ship.
What I've seen flying blaster boats is that armor weighs them down and thus makes it harder to catch anything. So I decided why not take the problem and turn it into an advantage by making them into complete bricks and then giving them web range bonuses to be able to reach their targets. Further more I'd decrease the raw DPS that blasters do and increase their range with the whole "optimal/falloff balance" so that they might start doing damage sooner.
It was also pointed out that I would accept making lasers fit this role instead since Amarr seems more like the "giant slow moving brick of death" than Gallente do. The Drake is a Lie |
Nomistrav
High Flyers RED.OverLord
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Err0r404 wrote:[put quad beams on a navy omen, turn off activation timer display, enjoy?
I'm going to go ahead and say that they didn't do this to begin with because of heat reasons. Now, before all you physics majors get pissy, let me explain real fast....
Heat Sinks as damage modifying modules. 'Nuff said.
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Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1058
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Posted - 2012.04.30 18:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Err0r404 wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Xercodo wrote:That it would and that sounds awesome but I think the hamsters would cry unless CCP could refactor how damage is applied in a constant manner like that. Nothing needs to be done. Remove the cycle animation from the turret and make it glow like when you activate a cloak. Do it for cosmetic reasons because a one second cycle would be annoying as hell. Then make the volley every second. Nothing needs to be seriously changed in Damage Calculation. 1 Second Volley and no halting of the Laser Animation till you turn of the guns. put quad beams on a navy omen, turn off activation timer display, enjoy?
Who the **** would ever fit quad beams ever? really? They do worse DPS, have less tracking, and range than focused medium pulses. There is literally no use for them other than to look cool.
Maybe less PG and CPU.....but really? The Drake is a Lie |
Err0r404
Pipeliner Inc. A Number One
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
I was just talking about a continuously firing laser with 1 second damage cycle, never said it was worth anything else |
Alara IonStorm
2053
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
I flew a Gleam Quad Beam Omen once. It's brawl fit anyway with MF so Gleam is practically the same think with better tracking. Went about as well as one would expect. Neuted in 10 Seconds by a Hurricane that was faster then me and offed just as fast.
Last time I try that.
I guess if the made Lasers Solid State design RoF Rigs would become Damage Rigs, RoF Bonus's would become Damage and Heatsinks would become Dmg only buffs.
Which would actually help with laser cap. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
308
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
I would love beams to be a continuous damage over time effect that ramps up damage over time to a set max. While pulse would be low ROF yet the longer activated against the target, the ROF increases.
While the mechanics may not support a continuous damaage stream, the damage tick could be updated like normal reload and fire "bullets" determining rather it hits or misses, but the art of the beam could be constant as long as the module is on. |
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