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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 01:36:00 -
[1]
Edited by: The Mittani on 24/03/2009 01:44:47 http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/65686
more shameless goonie propaganda~~~
this topic is related to the discussion we had today at the eve university birthday panel regarding why espionage is not merely advantageous but necessary for success
also features a 'ghost invasion', delve war update, and a critique of e-honor
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Tractus Vesica
Caldari Frater Adhuc Excessum
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Posted - 2009.03.24 01:38:00 -
[2]
Que? -------------------------------------------------------------- "Youtube, its like a pitri dish of stupid."
-Myself
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Taedrin
Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.03.24 02:26:00 -
[3]
An interesting read. While I agree that "e-honor" should not be held on to too tightly, I personally believe that e-honor does have a place in EVE, to a degree. IMO, this should be whenever the distinctions between real life and EVE are blurred - such as threats of physical violence against your person, cheating to get what you want (surely goons would agree with me here considering recent events?), breaking laws to get what you want (hacking servers, locating an enemy in real life and destroying their property to prevent them from playing, etc etc).
Also, you contradict yourself (kind of). You say: "Goonswarm - which is quite possibly the easiest alliance in EVE to infiltrate due to our size". Later, you cite Goonswarm as one of the best examples of using spies for counterintelligence (paragraph starting with: "Even if an alliance is philosophically opposed to spying..."). While not a direct contradiction, your earlier statement's rhetoric depends upon portraying your enemies as incompetent because the thing which they should have done was easy. You then go on to show that such a thing is not actually as easy and straightforward as you had previously lead the reader to believe. Granted, so long as you can get away with it, you can use whatever rhetorical fallacies you want to bring the reader over to your side...
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Shinma Apollo
Shut Up And Play
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Posted - 2009.03.24 02:27:00 -
[4]
what if the gatling gun, it has no bullets?
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Taedrin
Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.03.24 02:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Shinma Apollo what if the gatling gun, it has no bullets?
It can still be used as a rather potent blunt object, which a sword may have great difficulty cutting or overpowering.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.24 03:08:00 -
[6]
Good article.
Oh, and the TL-DR version for the attention impaired:
Space Ninjas beat Space Samurai any day. Why? No stupid Space Bushido. Fix the Wardec System! Upgrade the Probing System! |
The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 15:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Taedrin
Also, you contradict yourself (kind of). You say: "Goonswarm - which is quite possibly the easiest alliance in EVE to infiltrate due to our size". Later, you cite Goonswarm as one of the best examples of using spies for counterintelligence (paragraph starting with: "Even if an alliance is philosophically opposed to spying..."). While not a direct contradiction, your earlier statement's rhetoric depends upon portraying your enemies as incompetent because the thing which they should have done was easy. You then go on to show that such a thing is not actually as easy and straightforward as you had previously lead the reader to believe. Granted, so long as you can get away with it, you can use whatever rhetorical fallacies you want to bring the reader over to your side...
it's easy to get spies into goonswarm, due to our size
however we have some advantages in counterintelligence over other organizations which do not spy due to offensive espionage
that's not a 'kind of' contradiction, but nuance~
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ry ry
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Posted - 2009.03.24 15:27:00 -
[8]
Edited by: ry ry on 24/03/2009 15:29:19
that article is a bit weaker than your usually excellent stuff tbh.
having a propaganda platform is all well and good, but if the article boils down to a one-line CAOD riposte stretched out over a few hundred words it becomes less engaging.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.03.24 15:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 24/03/2009 15:29:19
that article is a bit weaker than your usually excellent stuff tbh.
having a propaganda platform is all well and good, but if the article boils down to a one-line CAOD riposte stretched out over a few hundred words it becomes less engaging.
Having a soapbox to stand on is irresistable to certain segments.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:18:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/03/2009 16:20:30 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/03/2009 16:19:51 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/03/2009 16:18:57
I disagree with the assertion that espionage is essential for success, even in 0.0. Ignoring PIE's (still around after being formed on Day 1) refusal to engage in underhand activities, take a look at the CVA. Whilst their time in 0.0 may not have been as glamourous as the Goons, they've been growing steadily for a very long time.
Also, consider the following - if an alliance actively engages in espionage, then not only are the odds of one of their people turning double agent ("going native") going to increase but when you have loads of people who are into that sort of thing the chances of something like a director stealing corp assests or disbanding the alliance when he gets annoyed increase.
Furthermore, in Eve you can't buy a reputation for honesty and integrity - you have to earn it by being honest and trustworthy.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: The Mittani
more shameless goonie propaganda~~~
Goon posting = shameless propaganda.
It's a given.
And shouldn't this be in CAOD?
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Tekutep
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:15:00 -
[12]
It makes sense to me why some people are against spying and consider it "honorless". I think some of the people who are so against it feel that way because they want to be able to compete and win/lose by way of space combat and not something else. It's like the person who hunts for nothing more than the pleasure of the hunt - he's not doing it just because he wants food. Just as people want to win/lose a battle for the sake of the fight itself, and winning/losing because some espionage took place robs them of that experience.
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/03/2009 16:20:30 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/03/2009 16:19:51 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/03/2009 16:18:57
I disagree with the assertion that espionage is essential for success, even in 0.0. Ignoring PIE's (still around after being formed on Day 1) refusal to engage in underhand activities, take a look at the CVA. Whilst their time in 0.0 may not have been as glamourous as the Goons, they've been growing steadily for a very long time.
Also, consider the following - if an alliance actively engages in espionage, then not only are the odds of one of their people turning double agent ("going native") going to increase but when you have loads of people who are into that sort of thing the chances of something like a director stealing corp assests or disbanding the alliance when he gets annoyed increase.
Furthermore, in Eve you can't buy a reputation for honesty and integrity - you have to earn it by being honest and trustworthy.
Yah, that's great. Except 0.0 isn't about honesty and integrity, it's about ripping your opponents throat out so no one can hear them scream as you dismember them. Most alliances who forgot that either don't exist anymore, or are in the process of being removed from 0.0 .
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
And shouldn't this be in CAOD?
espionage is of general interest, not just to alliances~
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Zang Hoor
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:40:00 -
[15]
i am at a point where i cant bother to read anything goon post or type... u simply have put to much effort in forum whines and throll.. if u stopped that i might take you guys serious till then, your nothing but flamers...
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: The Mittani Edited by: The Mittani on 24/03/2009 01:44:47 http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/65686
more shameless goonie propaganda~~~
this topic is related to the discussion we had today at the eve university birthday panel regarding why espionage is not merely advantageous but necessary for success
also features a 'ghost invasion', delve war update, and a critique of e-honor
Interesting read, although it reveals a number of unquestioned cultural assumptions.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:58:00 -
[17]
This was a good read.
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 18:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Malcanis
Interesting read, although it reveals a number of unquestioned cultural assumptions.
this is an intriguing comment, care to elaborate?
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Iria Ahrens
Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.03.24 20:58:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 24/03/2009 21:04:49 Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 24/03/2009 21:01:32 Hey Mittani, I enjoy your articles very much. Partially because I agree with much of it, and partially because I enjoy your sense of humor, "during the subsequent bout of utter panic."
Personally I think a lot of people confuse fighting honorably with fighting fairly which are truly two different things. Fighting fair is done to encourage participation. It attempts to eliminate as many outside factors as possible and get all the participants as close to parity as possible so that any result is determined by skill and natural aptitude. Fighting fair is only honorable when both sides agree to fight fair. Like when you sit down to a game of chess or watch a boxing match. Fighting a war fairly is dumb to me because one does not want more participation in wars. The goal is to have people pick wars with someone else and cringe at the thought of instigating a war with us.
Fighting honorably is about fighting in accordance to some previously set standards, whatever they may be. Holding oneself to a set of standards the enemy refuses to follow to me is stupid if it hurts the participant's abilities. Of course, if one wins this can lead to a diplomatic advantage in the aftermath. So it comes back to tradeoffs. Which does the particiant value more, the immediate result or the potential for an advantage provided they win. Because if you fail due to fighting, you can have a lot of people hug you and make you feel better, but when all is said and done, you're still the loser.
I think part of the reason people confuse honor with fairness is because when people play games, like chess, they agree before to starting the game (honor) to play with both sides starting from an equitable position (fair).
please note these are my views and not necessarily my corp or alliance's views.
--
Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Bish Ounen Good article.
Oh, and the TL-DR version for the attention impaired:
Space Ninjas beat Space Samurai any day. Why? No stupid Space Bushido.
I laughed. Nice analogy. :D
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Iria Ahrens
Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Bish Ounen Good article.
Oh, and the TL-DR version for the attention impaired:
Space Ninjas beat Space Samurai any day. Why? No stupid Space Bushido.
I laughed. Nice analogy. :D
space pirates vs space ninjas
Who wins? --
Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Iria Ahrens
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Bish Ounen Good article.
Oh, and the TL-DR version for the attention impaired:
Space Ninjas beat Space Samurai any day. Why? No stupid Space Bushido.
I laughed. Nice analogy. :D
space pirates vs space ninjas
Who wins?
Noone and everyone. Much like the current war between the Goons and whatever ******ed name they choose next.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Iria Ahrens
Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:34:00 -
[23]
Nice link :) --
Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
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The Riddik
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:40:00 -
[24]
sorry mit, dont want to read crap/
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: The Riddik sorry mit, dont want to read crap/
i guess that explains why your post wasn't proofread~~~
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:00:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Zeba on 24/03/2009 23:00:01
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: The Riddik sorry mit, dont want to read crap/
i guess that explains why your post wasn't proofread~~~
That makes about as much sense as this.
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: The Riddik sorry mit, your a big poo poo head/
i guess that explains why your left shoe wasn't tied~~~
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Kaaii
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:00:00 -
[27]
too goon;didn't read
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Iria Ahrens
Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.03.25 01:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 24/03/2009 23:00:01
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: The Riddik sorry mit, dont want to read crap/
i guess that explains why your post wasn't proofread~~~
That makes about as much sense as this.
snip
Actually Mittani's comeback was probably one of the best comebacks I've seen in months. The subtle ones are the best ones, and it's sad you need it explained and think it doesn't make sense or is completely random.
To proofread is to read one's own words. Riddik says he doesn't like to read crap, Mitttani says he did not proofread ergo, Riddik didn't read his own writing, thus Riddik declares his own writing crap by refusing to read it.
--
Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.03.25 01:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Iria Ahrens Actually Mittani's comeback was probably one of the best comebacks I've seen in months. The subtle ones are the best ones, and it's sad you need it explained and think it doesn't make sense or is completely random.
To proofread is to read one's own words. Riddik says he doesn't like to read crap, Mitttani says he did not proofread ergo, Riddik didn't read his own writing, thus Riddik declares his own writing crap by refusing to read it.
Well instead of being all flourishy and backhanded with the wording and bandying about insults like some proper british ladies whacking each other up side the head with change purses I like to be direct. The Riddik was pretty direct and consice though possibly not a good typer or even have good english skills. So I will be moar direct and less ambiguous about his short direct statement. You can pretty much distill all of the mittanis articles on Ten Ton hammer down to this: "Nyah nyah I got to write stuffs on an internets gaming forum about some internets spaceships shennanigans and I get to do it with no ccp intervention so let the spin games commence and I R better than U. Monkey. lolol ." So the mittani at a loss for words to such a direct statement waffled and went 'subtle'. That clear enough?
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Iria Ahrens
Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.03.25 03:39:00 -
[30]
Well, of course it's propaganda. I'd naturally expect his articles mainly to center around GS because that is where most of his experience is.
The main reasons I like his articles are. 1. I get to hear the GS POV in a well written article. Instead of a bunch of "bob is suxxor" comments that I normally hear on the forums. 2. The articles give newcomers and non-players a sense of the true scale of Eve and might inspire people to get more immersed or join when they were considering another mmo. 3. I'm hearing about events I'd otherwise have no knowledge myself.
But yes, there are definitely disadvateges to some of the best articles about EVE being goon propaganda, most of them too obvious to bother specifying. --
Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
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