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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
ACE81
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Posted - 2009.03.31 15:54:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 29/03/2009 02:30:29 Ok, so here's the deal...
Everyone keeps fighting about how wrecks should work. Most agree that CCP implemented Salvaging as a mini-profession, and thus wrecks are public property.
So... why don't wrecks show up on scans. Or... why don't battlefields simply populate on the Overview after the mission runner has turned in their mission.
We all know the easiest way to do it, is to bookmark a wreck... then hand in, and come back later. The deadspace will collapse, and you can MWD around as you tractor, loot, and salvage.
So why not just advertise the wrecks to anyone interested. Overview would be a giant neon sign saying "Come claim this stuff". But making them apparent on probes would be a step in the direction of a true profession.
Another thing... don't make the wrecks belong to anyone. Sure, kick the loot out in a Corp labeled Jet Can, but leave the wrecks neutral so anyone can tractor them. Otherwise, you're still emphasizing the subtle fact that salvage was only intended for the mission runner themselves.
What mystical force is preventing you from tractoring a wreck you didn't shoot? Does The Force inhibit the beam somehow? If you want to say it's first come, first served... then why are all these other miners chewing at my rocks, when I got here first!?
So yeah... make wrecks more apparent, and make them tractorable to anyone.
That is all...
Good Idea except I think mission recks should not be scannable till the mission ends then alls fair game.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Limited Liability Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.31 16:30:00 -
[32]
Which has been raised in other "Salvage" threads.
The problem being: 1) Ninjas don't probe for the wrecks, they probe for the runners. So they can sneak into your mission space and grab up wrecks before you're even done killing people.
2) If runners, and the wrecks, were invisible until after the mission space was collapsed, then it'd only emphasize the notion that wrecks are another form of loot. And that's what a lot of people are trying to avoid.
I try to be objective, and keep suggestions from having a "Salvager" or "Mission Runner" flavor to them. Sometimes I even succeed.
As a runner, I want keep all the lootz to myself. And since the rats didn't appear until I started the mission... then the kills, loot, and wrecks should be mine. But that's the ISK hungry Gollum talking. And the notion of a Salvaging "profession" doesn't allow for it.
As a salvager, I want to be able to find wrecks that others have no intention of cleaning up. I've run with some folks who would grind missions as fast as they could, only interested in the bounties and standings. So why not make the battlefields register as Mag sites after hand-in. Then anyone can probe them down and collect the wrecks before they time out.
So yeah... I just think a few kinks need ironed out. Then Salvaging will no longer be a "mini-profession" but a true "profession" with balanced mechanics and (reasonably) fair play. |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.31 16:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
As a salvager, I want to be able to find wrecks that others have no intention of cleaning up. I've run with some folks who would grind missions as fast as they could, only interested in the bounties and standings. So why not make the battlefields register as Mag sites after hand-in. Then anyone can probe them down and collect the wrecks before they time out.
may I correct you? The salvagers arent interested in wrecks somebody abandoned there intentionally because they are of no value potentially. They are interested in respectable income rather, in wrecks which are worth salvaging, respectively wrecks other people like to salvege too(mission runner). Concluding from above and the fact the game mechanics consider salvaging any wreck as a legal act they will not care about the container the wrecks are enclosed and continue probing mission runners instead of sites.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Limited Liability Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.31 17:10:00 -
[34]
You're right...
Ninja salvagers aren't interested in earning their own way in the universe. They're content with scavenging what they can from runners.
Why make some effort, when you can let someone else do it for you?
It seems some folks are more than happy quoting "No rewards without risk/effort" at times, and then ignoring it at others. |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.31 17:32:00 -
[35]
mhh what's the difference between shooting npc and salvaging wrecks?? Both are flying through the space and clicking modules. Mission runners dont risk anything, lookup aggro triggers in eve survival, shoot them away and gathering bounties for free at quasi zero risk, exepting for the salvagers they have to share unowned wrecks with.
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Aidan Drake
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Posted - 2009.03.31 17:48:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Mission runners dont risk anything
This is disingenuous and you know it.
L4 missions are fairly low risk in a well tanked BS, but LOW RISK is not the same game as ZERO RISK.
It's possible to die. If you're scrambled and tanked improperly it's extremely possible. And it happens.
Aside: I really tire of the bile you spew out in these threads. If you're only interested in being negative, not in actually discussing ideas on this forum, why are you even here? Could you just scan over your replies before you hit post and ask yourself, "does this sound like a troll?"
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.31 18:00:00 -
[37]
I must admit I am just p*ssed by all those greedy carebears which arent getting enough of grinding ISK and dare to ignore the developers rules for the game while keep whining and spam forums.
However regardless of all that I think I've posted clear arguments from the logical angle of view why the salvagers arent doing something wrong.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Limited Liability Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.31 18:14:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Robert Caldera ...and dare to ignore the developers rules...
What!? Blasphemy! Herecy!
The DEVS are to be worshiped and revered! Their word is SACRED!!!
Sorry... couldn't help it.
All I'm saying about the Remora comment, is that runners had to train up their combat and ship fitting skills. Then they had to grind up the standings to get a decent agent. Then they make accept a mission and head off to fulfill it. Usually that entails flying into a fleet of rats, and shooting until they're dead and hoping you're still alive at the end.
Salvagers... well lets see. Expanded Probe Launcher, Combat Scanner Probes, and Salvager I. Those are your only tools, and your own skill goals.
So while I'm not arguing that the wrecks belong to the runner... he is the one risking himself against those rats, and he's made and is still making effort to secure them. You're just following in his wake, cleaning up the scraps.
That's why salvagers are nothing more than scavengers. If they were any better... they'd be salvaging their own missions. You want better salvage... get yourself a better agent. If you want to pick at my leftovers... then you get what I decided against claiming for myself. --- Players aren't interested in Variety, they only want THE BEST. |
Aidan Drake
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Posted - 2009.03.31 18:44:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Robert Caldera I must admit I am just p*ssed by all those greedy carebears which arent getting enough of grinding ISK and dare to ignore the developers rules for the game while keep whining and spam forums.
However regardless of all that I think I've posted clear arguments from the logical angle of view why the salvagers arent doing something wrong.
Dare to ignore the developers rules? Really?
I'll just assume you're lost, because this is the Features and Ideas forum. This is the appropriate place to suggest design changes and new ideas. Your posts of the flavor "stfu, the devs said its this way, its not going to change" are totally useless here. Saying that the status quo is good because it is the status quo is not a well reasoned argument.
Some of your posts contain actual reasons why you believe things should change or stay the same, and that's fine. But when you resort to your vulgar, hostile approach and dismissive nature, you are just disrupting threads.
Most of the threads here aren't whines, they contain actual suggestions for design changes, so calling them whines is either a dishonest excuse to vent your hostility or belies a lack of comprehension from you as to what is going on here.
If you want to contribute meaningfully, that would be awesome. Otherwise, could you please take it somewhere else?
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.31 18:59:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 31/03/2009 19:00:34 sure, its ideas and features forum but the salvage-whiners just exaggregate the purpose of this forums spamming all the same stuff over and over again despite other players and developers repeatedely state thats ok, this sounds like this:
carebear: we want our salvage developer: this is not yours, it has to be that way carebear: no but we WANT that salvage independent player: dude CCP knows about it but its not a bug and its working as designed carebear: BUT we shoot it so its ours developer: no you dont own it, salvage is free 4 all even if you shot it carebear: YOU SUCK GIV US THEES FREE ISK!!! ONLY US!
this is like a spit in the face posting all the same stuff over and over again knowing the view and intention of the devs. I'm noticing here at least 2 threads a day, so I've learned quicky to hate them . So if you continue moaning about things dont be surprised about harsh/troll replies because you're just annoying, find a way to earn your ISK on another way instead of grinding missions like braindead pr*cks while spamming forums with whines.
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Aidan Drake
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:08:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Robert Caldera carebear: YOU SUCK GIV US THEES FREE ISK!!! ONLY US!
First of all, my thread, as well as this one, do not say this AT ALL. They are if anything proposing changes that make salvaging LESS carebear-y. So again, I will say that you are either being dishonest or are just really, really thick. Regardless of which one it is, you are totally off base, so you have no justification for what you're saying.
Originally by: Robert Caldera find a way to earn your ISK on another way instead of grinding missions like braindead pr*cks while spamming forums with whines.
There you go again. You can't get through a single forum post without using language that requires circumventing the filter. You're clearly not getting any smarter, and I refuse to stoop to your level, so I'm going to just stop discussing this with you.
You're hostile, you're disruptive, and you're not contributing anything. If you have nothing useful to say, please get off of this forum.
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ACE81
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:35:00 -
[42]
Originally by: ACE81
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 29/03/2009 02:30:29 Ok, so here's the deal...
Everyone keeps fighting about how wrecks should work. Most agree that CCP implemented Salvaging as a mini-profession, and thus wrecks are public property.
So... why don't wrecks show up on scans. Or... why don't battlefields simply populate on the Overview after the mission runner has turned in their mission.
We all know the easiest way to do it, is to bookmark a wreck... then hand in, and come back later. The deadspace will collapse, and you can MWD around as you tractor, loot, and salvage.
So why not just advertise the wrecks to anyone interested. Overview would be a giant neon sign saying "Come claim this stuff". But making them apparent on probes would be a step in the direction of a true profession.
Another thing... don't make the wrecks belong to anyone. Sure, kick the loot out in a Corp labeled Jet Can, but leave the wrecks neutral so anyone can tractor them. Otherwise, you're still emphasizing the subtle fact that salvage was only intended for the mission runner themselves.
What mystical force is preventing you from tractoring a wreck you didn't shoot? Does The Force inhibit the beam somehow? If you want to say it's first come, first served... then why are all these other miners chewing at my rocks, when I got here first!?
So yeah... make wrecks more apparent, and make them tractorable to anyone.
That is all...
Good Idea except I think mission recks should not be scannable till the mission ends then alls fair game.
When I say mission ends I mean when the last rat dies not when the mission is turned in sorry for the confusion.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Limited Liability Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:48:00 -
[43]
Even if you waited until the mission were completed, that would still be easily exploited.
1) Use a ship configuration like mine. Salvage as you go, so by the end, there are no wrecks left. That last rat dies, the space becomes "free for all", and you salvage the wreck before anyone can even get a sensor hit.
2) Kill everything except for a single frigate. A lot of mission miners do the same thing, since they can easily tank the damage, they have plenty of time to mine the random asteroids that spawned inside the mission space. |
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2009.03.31 20:27:00 -
[44]
Cleaned.
Numerous off-topic and flaming posts removed.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.03.31 22:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Cleaned.
Numerous off-topic and flaming posts removed.
why not just close it. There are like 15 wreck and salvage threads open that keep getting bumped. ------------------------------------
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.04.01 04:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Abrazzar To make it easier on the database and to reduce the general clutter on the scanner is why I proposed one beacon per room. This could even be defined by the mission, so only rooms with larger amounts of ships (=wrecks) get a beacon.
I could support this as well. I'm not picky.
Ya know though, before wrecks people would fly mission non stop, same as now, and not loot thier loot cans. Bounties were higher and the loot from blown up cans wasn't worth collecting most of the time. I'm not aware that there was any more lag from clutter back then. Loot cans last just as long as wrecks do.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.04.01 04:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon The problem being: 1) Ninjas don't probe for the wrecks, they probe for the runners. So they can sneak into your mission space and grab up wrecks before you're even done killing people.
2) If runners, and the wrecks, were invisible until after the mission space was collapsed, then it'd only emphasize the notion that wrecks are another form of loot. And that's what a lot of people are trying to avoid.
Players used to be nearly invisible in missions, and pirates tryin to scan them out in low sec whined and cried till it got changed (as it rightfully should have) so that people couldn't hide out and run missions all day in low sec with impunity. (Kinda like ninja salvagers do now in high sec.) I think you could get away with making wrecks in dead space invisible though. And I'd still like to see it harder to probe out drones as well.
Other then that, there's nothin wrong with your ideas.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.04.01 04:15:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
As a salvager, I want to be able to find wrecks that others have no intention of cleaning up. I've run with some folks who would grind missions as fast as they could, only interested in the bounties and standings. So why not make the battlefields register as Mag sites after hand-in. Then anyone can probe them down and collect the wrecks before they time out.
may I correct you? The salvagers arent interested in wrecks somebody abandoned there intentionally because they are of no value potentially. They are interested in respectable income rather, in wrecks which are worth salvaging, respectively wrecks other people like to salvege too(mission runner). Concluding from above and the fact the game mechanics consider salvaging any wreck as a legal act they will not care about the container the wrecks are enclosed and continue probing mission runners instead of sites.
These new "grav sites" or whatever you wanna call the idea of probe-able closed missions with wrecks left over, could be classified by mission lvl. Then you could probe out the better wrecks by signal strength.
Yer just afraid of losing your risk free griefer tactic.
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BlyTwo
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Posted - 2009.04.01 05:48:00 -
[49]
One thing i never got about the wrecks, was that you can steal the wreck, just not the stuff inside...
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.04.01 07:14:00 -
[50]
Originally by: BlyTwo One thing i never got about the wrecks, was that you can steal the wreck, just not the stuff inside...
You can steal the stuff inside. It's just that the owner gets to shoot you afterwards.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.04.02 02:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: BlyTwo One thing i never got about the wrecks, was that you can steal the wreck, just not the stuff inside...
Yeah, we've got a whole thread on the topic of the disconnect in different can mechanics over HERE if you'd like to contribute.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.04.04 06:04:00 -
[52]
Still probably the best overall solution.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.04.04 09:06:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Still probably the best overall solution.
I disagree that there is a problem
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.04 10:03:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Dead space dampens sigs anyway sooooo why now make wrecks in dead space have 0 sig, and then add them back to the list of probe-able objects?
A little warning:
with Apocrypha deadspace has stopped damping signatures
so adding wrecks to a probe result would:
a) clutter monstrously the scan windows in any system with even a moderate number of wrecks (1 hit for each wreck? a single mission runner or ratter would give you teens of them)
b) probably (if A don't break the probing system) will make the wreck field extremely easy to find as wrecks are large and have 0 signature. Probably the on board scanner would be sufficient.
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Miilla
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Posted - 2009.04.04 11:34:00 -
[55]
Go collect gold with your guild in quests you baby.
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Deimi
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Posted - 2009.04.04 11:45:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Deimi on 04/04/2009 11:56:54
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Cleaned.
Numerous off-topic and flaming posts removed.
My post wasnt the slightest off topic, it was smack on the subject at hand. Neither was I in any way flaming, yet you removed me.
Edit: I will repeat what I said in short here though for reference.
Missions were originally done in regular space, but was moved to the deadspace pockets so mission runners could do their missions without interruption. Now that scanning and entering mission areas have been made possible, we are back at square one in that regard. And so we have gotten the problems the OP and others pointed out in this thread. So if we could have the missions restored so that a third part player wont be able to warp into the mission area, I think this matter and other issues would be resolved.
Is it a new forum rule. That for everyone posting something you don't agree on. You should accuse them of being a troll? ;) |
Galvatine
Caldari Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.04.04 12:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Deimi Edited by: Deimi on 04/04/2009 11:56:54
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Cleaned.
Numerous off-topic and flaming posts removed.
My post wasnt the slightest off topic, it was smack on the subject at hand. Neither was I in any way flaming, yet you removed me.
Edit: I will repeat what I said in short here though for reference.
Missions were originally done in regular space, but was moved to the deadspace pockets so mission runners could do their missions without interruption. Now that scanning and entering mission areas have been made possible, we are back at square one in that regard. And so we have gotten the problems the OP and others pointed out in this thread. So if we could have the missions restored so that a third part player wont be able to warp into the mission area, I think this matter and other issues would be resolved.
What and ruin all the fun? Eve is a multiplayer game
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Deimi
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Posted - 2009.04.04 12:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Galvatine
What and ruin all the fun? Eve is a multiplayer game
Sure it was great fun in the early days for those who simply warp to the mission areas around moons and in asteroid belts back then.
For the guy who had been assigned the mission it was another story, he / she never were able to finish a single mission!
This was the reason to move missions to deadspace pockets.
With the ability to scan and enter mission areas the game have been brought back to square one in this regard. And so CCP will have to address the matter sooner or later anyhow.
Doing so will also solve the major points about looting of wrecks and salvage discussed in this thread.
Is it a new forum rule. That for everyone posting something you don't agree on. You should accuse them of being a troll? ;) |
Imertu Solientai
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.04 12:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Deimi
Originally by: Galvatine
What and ruin all the fun? Eve is a multiplayer game
Sure it was great fun in the early days for those who simply warp to the mission areas around moons and in asteroid belts back then.
For the guy who had been assigned the mission it was another story, he / she never were able to finish a single mission!
This was the reason to move missions to deadspace pockets.
With the ability to scan and enter mission areas the game have been brought back to square one in this regard. And so CCP will have to address the matter sooner or later anyhow.
Doing so will also solve the major points about looting of wrecks and salvage discussed in this thread.
So essentially you want instanced missions? Go back to WOW.
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Galvatine
Caldari Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.04.04 12:56:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Deimi
Originally by: Galvatine
What and ruin all the fun? Eve is a multiplayer game
Sure it was great fun in the early days for those who simply warp to the mission areas around moons and in asteroid belts back then.
For the guy who had been assigned the mission it was another story, he / she never were able to finish a single mission!
This was the reason to move missions to deadspace pockets.
With the ability to scan and enter mission areas the game have been brought back to square one in this regard. And so CCP will have to address the matter sooner or later anyhow.
Doing so will also solve the major points about looting of wrecks and salvage discussed in this thread.
I dont beleive they will "address" the issue at all, since there is nothing to "address". People scanning you out does not prevent you completing the mission, if you want the salvage get yourself a maurauder.
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