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Synnyr
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Posted - 2009.03.31 05:29:00 -
[1]
so I could get Deep Space Probes.
Made a quick run and don't see any difference.
From my perspective scanning is still broken from the patch. Is it so hard to give legacy explorers the opportunity to easily scan down a system to see if we want to waste the next 30 minutes finding out we don't want to be there?
I must be missing something and would really appreciate some help here - I was told Deep Space scanners were much like the old Multi-spectral probes. After running a while with them I was still mucking around with positioning and narrowing down the location of sites that I had no idea what they were. How does one use the Deep Space probes properly? Or did I just waste 12 days of training time?
Thanks.
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Kulmid
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.31 05:36:00 -
[2]
Drop the range to 8 or 16AU. If that doesn't work, get some better skills
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.31 05:47:00 -
[3]
Apparently CCP has (very recently) nerfed them to be only marginally more useful than standard probes.
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Armoured C
Gallente Armoured Investments
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Posted - 2009.03.31 05:52:00 -
[4]
;_;
WARNING: ANGRY AND LOOKING FOR BLOOD
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2009.03.31 06:07:00 -
[5]
I've been playing since 05 and never used the scanner until last week. I had zero trouble picking it up. I drop one Deep Space Probe and it covers the whole system and returns sigs no problem. I don't know what you're doing wrong.
It takes a couple seconds to launch the probe, a few for it to warp into position and 10 seconds to scan. That sounds a cinch for a 'legacy explorer'. What do you want, a single button press that gives you warp-ins of everything in the system?
Even launching 4 or 5 Core Probes will give you pretty good general coverage in most systems and it's a single button press to bring all the probes back in. what the crap just happened? |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.31 06:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Empyre Even launching 4 or 5 Core Probes will give you pretty good general coverage in most systems and it's a single button press to bring all the probes back in.
Sometimes people have amazingly good advice and they just can't understand how someone would be so stupid to miss something so obvious... Or so they think themselves.
It very often turns out that they completely missed the point due to their lack of in-depth knowledge of the issue, and thus end up looking at an over-simplification of the situation.
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bnogo
Caldari Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.03.31 08:25:00 -
[7]
i think the issue is right after apoc got released, deep space probes were the **** if you could use them, like 2-3 gave a 75% or better hit on most sites so you knew what to skip etc.
ccp nerfed them in 1.0.2 i think or 1.0.1 can't remember which. so it would be more difficult to pin point. it makes it somewhat quicker still, but eh, not a big deal.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.31 08:43:00 -
[8]
Actually at any given range, all three probe types now work exactly the same, returning identical signal strengths for the items they can probe for.
To compare the combat and deep space probes (since both of these scan for everything), you can drop one of each and set them both at 2AU, they will return identical signals. The difference is that you can set the combat probes to a shorter range and get a higher strength. But until you're inside that 2AU distance, there's not any kind of performance difference between the probes. Likewise, out to 64 AU (where the combat probes stop working) they are functionally identical in every way.
The advantage of training Astro V now is that it lets you (1) launch 8 probes at a time, which is sometimes handy; and (2) it lets you scan at ranges beyond 64 AU (which is only useful if there's a ship in a legacy safespot). It's a pretty specialized and narrow return on training time, but it's not necessarily wasted depending on what you want to do. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Turiel Demon
Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2009.03.31 08:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T Apparently CCP has (very recently) nerfed them to be only marginally more useful than standard probes.
They nerfed them to be identical to core probes, but with greater maximum and minimum ranges.
Before the patch deep space probes had the signal strength effectively two 'sizes' higher than cores, so at 4AU range they would have the scanning strength of a 1AU core probe, letting you discover the nature (grav, ladar etc.) of signals quite quickly, but requiring core probes to narrow down the hardest signals (unless you were max skilled and implanted).
Now deep probes are essentially pointless.
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ollobrains
Young Enterprise DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2009.03.31 09:38:00 -
[10]
they have been severly nerfed but sitll usable in certain circumstances
Astro 5 good for the strength bonuses
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2009.03.31 09:46:00 -
[11]
Astro 5 gives you an extra probe, not a strength bonus. This is useful in the situation where you wish to probe down 2 signals at a time, but for the rest there's not really anything you can do with 8 probes that you can't do with 7.
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.31 09:47:00 -
[12]
I too miss the old deep space probes and their ability to rapidly identify a site's type but the current implementation of them is still usable.. it's just a little pointless.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2009.03.31 09:49:00 -
[13]
Deep space probes are now essentially a waste of time.
The only use they are for is jumping in system, dropping 1 to scan if there is a sig before moving on.
If there is a signature, you've no idea what radar type it is which means you still waste time having to scan it out.
If thats working as intended, thats fine, but the blog when Apoc was released indicated they should of been more of a boon and useful, which they are not.
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Yalezorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.31 09:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Empyre I've been playing since 05 and never used the scanner until last week. I had zero trouble picking it up. I drop one Deep Space Probe and it covers the whole system and returns sigs no problem. I don't know what you're doing wrong.
It takes a couple seconds to launch the probe, a few for it to warp into position and 10 seconds to scan. That sounds a cinch for a 'legacy explorer'. What do you want, a single button press that gives you warp-ins of everything in the system?
Even launching 4 or 5 Core Probes will give you pretty good general coverage in most systems and it's a single button press to bring all the probes back in.
You must have missed the part about the Multi-Spectral probes, or since you're just starting exploration, don't know what they are.
In the old system, you could drop one of these probes in a system, and it would tell you what sites were up. If there were Radar sites, Ladar sites, Unknowns, whatever it would come up in the list.
In the new system, you get Signatures. You don't know if it's a wormhole, an asteroid field, a combat site, a hacking site, or anything about it. So you get to spend (read: waste) time scanning down each and every one, often just to find out it's not the type of site you were looking for. Before, you dropped one probe in a system, saw if there were any types of sites worth scanning for, and if there weren't you moved on.
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2009.03.31 11:34:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 31/03/2009 11:45:20 They had it all nicely balanced, and then went and messed it up.
I have two characters, my main, who amongst other things has been doing exploration since it was released; Astrometrics to 5 and all other skills to 4, and my combat alt, who has the bare minimum necessary to scan his way out of w-space.
On release of the new system things were just right, my main could quickly find wormholes, get the gang into w-space and quickly find any wormholes leading out. Scanning was more fun and didn't require excessive time, which was about right given the skill training time invested in this chracter.
My alt on the other hand would find the wormholes in k-space fairly quickly, but would have a long and difficult time in w-space due to the large amount of signatures. Again this was just fine, after all, he had hardly any skill time invested in explorataion.
So far so good, CCP had done a good job on the balancing of this one. Unfortunately this balance kind of hinged around the Deep Space probes ability to quickly tell what type of signature it was seeing, which allowed my main to concentrate on the type of signature required. It was this ability which was nerfed meaning that now there is little difference between my skilled main or noob alt.
The problem is the large amount of signatures in w-space and having to rule each one out. For this the old Deep Space probe was perfect, they still needed deploying, focusing and moving around to get the results, which was hugely preferrable to some 'filter' that identifies signature types. Furthermore it could only be used by people who had invested the training time into exploration, unlike a filter would be.
All in all CCP had this right and then dropped the ball...
Edit: What would be ideal is to have the strength of Deep Space probes kept as it is, but allow them to detect the type of signature at lower strength levels. This would still require the more specialised probes to be used to actually find the signatures, but would make the Deep Space probes very useful again for characters with the necessary skill investment. ------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.31 12:10:00 -
[16]
IF you are looking for something in particular you can do the following.
Drop a single probe get a count in system with approx ranges. As most sites are near planets ie within 4 AU so you can use that info to extrapolate where the sites are in system. Drop a few more @ 8 or 4 AU range so you can get them triangulated roughly. Drop a single probe right in the center of each signal and reduce the range to 1 AU.
90 % of the sites will give you a type @ 1 AU. Then you can either mark them of no interest or bring in more probes to narrow down the site of interest.
THe point is you don't have to waste time getting 100 % on all the signals and you also don't have to warp to every one.
NOt sure if this is making any sense but all you need is 1 probe within 1 or 2 AU and you can tag the site. Requires some thought but it is a lot quicker then warping to every site.
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Thernys
Caldari Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.03.31 12:24:00 -
[17]
Tl;dr for the lazies abundant in these threads: Probing is fine.
Wormhole systems are clearly not intended to be a cakewalk in any regard. Why should scanning down sites be the exception, and instantaneous? It takes some effort, and that just kills the people with the 'all mine, right now' mentality so common today. Even without an instant way to see the types of all the sites, you should still have a reasonable idea of where to look for what you want to find. If you don't, you need to RTFM or otherwise figure out the meaning of signal strengths.
Astrometrics 5 is still very useful even without overpowered deep space probes. It speeds up your scanning in WH systems greatly as you can have one set of four probes with a large radius around the central cluster, and then another mobile set of four probes to narrow down the signatures. This means having a better overall picture of what you're doing, and less moving around of probes which directly translates into time savings.
The last part that comes into play is actual player skill. I'm sure this is what CCP wanted to promote when taking away your probing 'I win button'. There are any number of methods and tricks to use to speed up the search and enable you to find what you're looking for even in the thickest central cluster. Figure out what works for you, learn to actually probe and you'll start going from this to this sooner than you think.
And if someone's only scanning k-space and still complaining, there is nothing nice that can be said to you. STFU.
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Haramir Haleths
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Posted - 2009.03.31 12:27:00 -
[18]
But you can open a covert cynosural transfer gate on your Black Ops with astrometic at 5 .... is that nothing ?
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.31 13:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Thernys Tl;dr for the lazies abundant in these threads: Probing is fine.
Wormhole systems are clearly not intended to be a cakewalk in any regard. Why should scanning down sites be the exception, and instantaneous? It takes some effort, and that just kills the people with the 'all mine, right now' mentality so common today. Even without an instant way to see the types of all the sites, you should still have a reasonable idea of where to look for what you want to find. If you don't, you need to RTFM or otherwise figure out the meaning of signal strengths.
Astrometrics 5 is still very useful even without overpowered deep space probes. It speeds up your scanning in WH systems greatly as you can have one set of four probes with a large radius around the central cluster, and then another mobile set of four probes to narrow down the signatures. This means having a better overall picture of what you're doing, and less moving around of probes which directly translates into time savings.
The last part that comes into play is actual player skill. I'm sure this is what CCP wanted to promote when taking away your probing 'I win button'. There are any number of methods and tricks to use to speed up the search and enable you to find what you're looking for even in the thickest central cluster. Figure out what works for you, learn to actually probe and you'll start going from this to this sooner than you think.
And if someone's only scanning k-space and still complaining, there is nothing nice that can be said to you. STFU.
You seem to have misunderstood somewhat, all we're saying is that it's a pain to have lost the equivalent of a multispectral probe, not that we want warpable results (I know at least I don't that would kill the fun of it. However, I don't find scanning for extended periods of time looking for a specific site only to realise that there never was one in the entire system to be much fun) As to "Skill"...there is little skill in probing, it's a simple thing that always goes the same, it's just a case of knowing how to do it right and then doing it that way every single time.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Thernys
Caldari Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.03.31 13:45:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Thernys on 31/03/2009 13:51:49
Originally by: Benco97 it's just a case of knowing how to do it right and then doing it that way every single time.
Isn't that pretty much the definition of skill, knowing how to do something right? Repetitiveness is a different matter entirely. And no, I didn't misunderstand, I realise you want to know which sig is where exactly, so you can pinpoint site x on the first scan* instead of on the second, or fifth. And with all that said, I still think probing is fine.
The only mid-range sites you ever really want to find are wormholes, and most of them are very easy to spot. High-quality sites have low sig str so you know where to look. And if you really want to mine veld in WH-space, you look for the highest str. It doesn't need to get any easier than that.
Edit: * First scan after your new 'multispectral' of course. Only it's not multispec since deep space probes also give location info.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.31 13:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Turiel Demon Astro 5 gives you an extra probe, not a strength bonus. This is useful in the situation where you wish to probe down 2 signals at a time, but for the rest there's not really anything you can do with 8 probes that you can't do with 7.
This.
There is a significant difference between being able to scan down two sites at once and not being able to scan down two sites at once. Remember that deep space probes were intended for scanning deep safes and not meant as a general pinpointing tool.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.31 13:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Thernys I realise you want to know which sig is where exactly, so you can pinpoint site x on the first scan instead of on the second, or fifth.
That isn't what I want at all, I don't care if a site takes me 50 scans to pinpoint, I just want to know if there is actually one THERE.
I would be totally happy with functionality identical to the old multispectrals, it just tells you if "X" site is present, not WHERE it is. For example, sorting through a pile of gravimetric sites for a Ladar site that may not even exist is not fun, if I knew that there was a Ladar site there I would gladly scan ALL DAY to find it and then feel happy with myself upon finding it (It's not time involved that bothers me, it's sinking time into something pointless that bothers me, searching for something which doesn't exist is pointless). Admittedly, the current system is still perfectly usable and works, I'd just prefer it the other way.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Thernys
Caldari Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.03.31 14:05:00 -
[23]
As an addendum to the earlier (thought a suggestion might warrant a post rather than an edit):
The closest thing to a multispec that I can think of in the new system with movable probes would be a probe that CANNOT provide location info, but only gives you a list of the types of sites that are available within its scan radius. I'm not entirely sure if that wouldn't still make it too easy, but it would strike a reasonably good balance between 'Iwin' and what you all apparently consider to be 'too hard'.
It has the functionality of the multispec of old, yet has some use in locating sigs without providing too obvious location hints.
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.31 14:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Thernys As an addendum to the earlier (thought a suggestion might warrant a post rather than an edit):
The closest thing to a multispec that I can think of in the new system with movable probes would be a probe that CANNOT provide location info, but only gives you a list of the types of sites that are available within its scan radius. I'm not entirely sure if that wouldn't still make it too easy, but it would strike a reasonably good balance between 'Iwin' and what you all apparently consider to be 'too hard'.
It has the functionality of the multispec of old, yet has some use in locating sigs without providing too obvious location hints.
I like this idea a lot and you seem like a sensible fellow. I wish to apply to your monthly newsletter, please find attached 18p for my first year's postage fees.
Kindest regards, -Benco97, Space tramp.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Thernys
Caldari Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.03.31 14:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Benco97 I like this idea a lot and you seem like a sensible fellow. I wish to apply to your monthly newsletter, please find attached 18p for my first year's postage fees.
Yeah so I didn't read every post in a thread that seemed like it was going to be full of whines. But it seems we have an accord at least on some level, though I still think it doesn't really need changing. |
Turiel Demon
Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2009.03.31 14:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Thernys As an addendum to the earlier (thought a suggestion might warrant a post rather than an edit):
The closest thing to a multispec that I can think of in the new system with movable probes would be a probe that CANNOT provide location info, but only gives you a list of the types of sites that are available within its scan radius. I'm not entirely sure if that wouldn't still make it too easy, but it would strike a reasonably good balance between 'Iwin' and what you all apparently consider to be 'too hard'.
It has the functionality of the multispec of old, yet has some use in locating sigs without providing too obvious location hints.
This would be ideal, let us know if there ARE any worthwhile sites in a system to bother probing at all. Every time I finish scanning 14 gravs, 1 ladar and a WH in a system I get massive turned off of wormholes.
It's not that probing is difficult, its that the frustration level is nigh-intolerable in the above situation, especially if you're the prober for a group of people, all waiting on you to find something interesting; this, IMO, is indicative of a flawed game mechanic.
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2009.04.01 03:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Yalezorn You must have missed the part about the Multi-Spectral probes, or since you're just starting exploration, don't know what they are.
In the old system, you could drop one of these probes in a system, and it would tell you what sites were up. If there were Radar sites, Ladar sites, Unknowns, whatever it would come up in the list.
In the new system, you get Signatures. You don't know if it's a wormhole, an asteroid field, a combat site, a hacking site, or anything about it. So you get to spend (read: waste) time scanning down each and every one, often just to find out it's not the type of site you were looking for. Before, you dropped one probe in a system, saw if there were any types of sites worth scanning for, and if there weren't you moved on.
I had a vague idea of what they were. The way it is now seems more balanced to me. Being able to drop a probe with a large range that tells you detailed info about a signature seems a little out of whack with logic, not that two different probes covering the same range that large would return very similar signatures with the same information. That sounds a little more sensible to me, but what do I know?
what the crap just happened? |
Cagot
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.04.01 03:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Thernys Figure out what works for you, learn to actually probe and you'll start going from this to this sooner than you think.
Nice. The difference between the timestamps at the bottom left of those pix is 4 hours 12 minutes, so I wouldn't exactly call it instant gratification.
And yes, I'm enjoying the new probing stuff, despite all the bloody grav sites. I disliked having 17 different probe types... even though I'm left with 17 fully-researched probe BPOs.
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Dante024781
Mercenary Evolution
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Posted - 2009.04.01 04:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Edit: What would be ideal is to have the strength of Deep Space probes kept as it is, but allow them to detect the type of signature at lower strength levels. This would still require the more specialised probes to be used to actually find the signatures, but would make the Deep Space probes very useful again for characters with the necessary skill investment.
I agree with this statement. This would be perfect.
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Thernys
Caldari Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.04.01 10:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cagot Nice. The difference between the timestamps at the bottom left of those pix is 4 hours 12 minutes, so I wouldn't exactly call it instant gratification.
Instant gratification is a plague on society tbqh. But other than that, the last screenshot was not taken immediately after the sys was finished and it was my first go at actually mapping out a whole system. Trust me, since then I've done a lot of systems, and learnt new tricks in the process (the 'player skill' part debated in previous posts) - and frankly, I've gotten brutally efficient at it. Not instant, but no longer 4 hours.
Also that's for mapping out a whole system, typically finding something you actually need is much faster. Particularly since what you need is generally in the lower end of the sig strengths, which cuts down the number of sigs you need to check by well over half. I can live with a couple arkanor belts, when the batch almost without fail contains radar/mag or high-end gas clouds.
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