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Goatfather
HOMELE55 Double Tap.
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 04:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
We should just make one massive merc/war alliance in HS. Push our differences aside if this system actually goes live. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 04:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
373
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Posted - 2012.05.03 04:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. You'd be surprised.
Don't forget the war stacking multiplier, lol. |
Goatfather
HOMELE55 Double Tap.
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 05:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place.
As it says: 50m starting plus 500k per person x1 = 50.5m
*ahem* it's on the test server, thus it's "in place" enough to have made it that far.
I do not think CCP is dumb, I feel CCP is making a choice based on what they felt was good. What means they utilized to decide what is good, who knows. |
Ifly Uwalk
Concentrated Evil Mining For Profit Alliance
211
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Posted - 2012.05.03 06:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
629
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Posted - 2012.05.03 06:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
So don't deck goons in highsec and move in on their turf. There is realisticly, way more ******* people who may not like them and if all of EVE (if that were to happen) were to focus on goons, they would be crushed like a cat under a monster truck. And you could do it without a wardec fee at all.
Also...GTFO of highsec, problem ******* solved. Been saying that all along if you don't like highsec shenanigans |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
22
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sounds to me that if this hits tranquility it will kill empire decs for the most part.
Not only do you have to pay ridiculous fees, with the ally system that will go in effect, no one will be that interested in putting up even a vote.
My opinion:
Increase the dec fee - good call.
Add a 'per member' cost value - bad call.
Unlimited allies for the target - ridiculous.
Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge.
Doesn't sound like it has been thought through enough.
I predict a massive suicide gank increase and mercs advertising with that as a specific service;
NEED SOMEONE KILLED?
Hire us for our Tornado gank service.
Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
Devore Sekk
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aesheera wrote:Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge.
Wut? Half decent mercs aren't cheap. Hiring a bunch of bozos with some PvP ships is just throwing your money away, especially without neutral rr. |
qu1ckkkk
The Warp Core Stabilizers Purgat0ry
2
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aesheera wrote: Not only do you have to pay ridiculous fees, with the ally system that will go in effect, no one will be that interested in putting up even a vote.
Assuming you didn't read the changes, a corporation vote is no longer needed.
Aesheera wrote: Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge.
Doesn't sound like it has been thought through enough.
I predict a massive suicide gank increase and mercs advertising with that as a specific service;
NEED SOMEONE KILLED?
Hire us for our Tornado gank service.
I myself have long discussed this balance problem that I foresee due to the costs as well as the unlimited allies with a few mates. I'm not too bothered with the fact that deccing goonz is 4Bil +, but the smaller decs even costing a bil is pretty meh.
Taking into account the cost implications, as well as the unlimited allies problem, dont you think the shift to everyone suddenly doing merc work rather than actually aggressing might hurt empire decs? No doubt, there will still be wars, but the risk-cost implications is pretty big :)
Those that havent seen the fanfest vid on Inferno should watch it. CCP want's dec's to be more 'hardcode'. We'll, the only way that is happening is by preventing the dec shielding crap and getting out of a dec before the week is over. Other than that, meh.
Heck, I'll probably do free merc work now considering I'll be joining a bunch of allies ^^
my 2c |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
719
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Posted - 2012.05.03 08:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. You'd be surprised. Don't forget the war stacking multiplier, lol. There won't be no stacking multiplier in the new system |
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
374
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Posted - 2012.05.03 08:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. You'd be surprised. Don't forget the war stacking multiplier, lol. There won't be no stacking multiplier in the new system Okay, so that's a good sign at least.
Still, as someone who's managed successful small mercenary outfits for many years now, I can tell you that mercenary services will now exclusively become the domain of the wealthy. As it is now, few clients are willing to pay a decent service fee (I'm talking in the couple-hundred-million area), and when a 100-200 million war fee comes into play, many get turned off entirely. With these changes, it will cost hundreds of millions just to wage a week of war. So small-scale mercenary groups will either have to work for free (and still have less jobs than they do today), or not work entirely.
CCP needs to realize that a billion ISK is a lot of money for some carebear corporation that wants to hire muscle for some revenge. The professional mercenary industry has already been declining for the past few years, at least as far as small groups are concerned. We made a pretty big deal out of the new fee structure in General Discussion, but CCP declined to listen.
Like Aesheera said, it will probably be more financially viable to suicide-gank than to declare war after the changes. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
qu1ckkkk wrote:Aesheera wrote: Not only do you have to pay ridiculous fees, with the ally system that will go in effect, no one will be that interested in putting up even a vote.
Assuming you didn't read the changes, a corporation vote is no longer needed. Small typo, I was aware, but you get what I mean.
qu1ckkkk wrote:I myself have long discussed this balance problem that I foresee due to the costs as well as the unlimited allies with a few mates. I'm not too bothered with the fact that deccing goonz is 4Bil +, but the smaller decs even costing a bil is pretty meh.
Taking into account the cost implications, as well as the unlimited allies problem, dont you think the shift to everyone suddenly doing merc work rather than actually aggressing might hurt empire decs? No doubt, there will still be wars, but the risk-cost implications is pretty big :)
Those that havent seen the fanfest vid on Inferno should watch it. CCP want's dec's to be more 'hardcode'. We'll, the only way that is happening is by preventing the dec shielding crap and getting out of a dec before the week is over. Other than that, meh.
Heck, I'll probably do free merc work now considering I'll be joining a bunch of allies ^^
my 2c
Thats most likely what will happen if this is going live on Tranq.
Who will even bother wardeccing someone? Heck RvB will probably shutdown with this mechanic since the costs for their - in my opinion - amazing Empire war operation will be nigh unfundable for a prolonged amount of time.
I don't think CCP realises the weight of this decision. People left and right will be offering themselves as so called Mercs just to get free targets and the amount of dockgames will increase to such a degree that within a 2 month notice highsec will become what the PvE'rs (the ones that have at least) always whined about.
And if that doesn't happen highsec will most likely become one big fat alliance or two just to demotivate anyone from ever declaring a war. I mean, who wants to even pay billions for a one week wartarget hunt?
A big string of systems where every missionrunner, miner and industrialist will be able to do whatever they want without anyone bothering to deploy some grief - not that that's my thing, but making it THIs risk adverse will make it extremely boring. Not to mention the 'suspect' mechanic where even a simple canflip for said griefers will be punished so hard that it's going to become one, big lifeless pool of PvP boredom.
The consequences have too big of an impact.
My proposed changes?
Increase base dec fee and only that, screw +member fees.
Remove max number of corporation decs (like is planned atm).
Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage.
Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
4,2 billions to war dec goons.
This is madness.
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
80
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ifly Uwalk wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is.
Allinces/corps should have a tax on members that becomes an ISK sink Ie 100m per month per member which would encourage corps to ditch dead beats and prevent them from filling up with alts to boost the price of war. It would also make alting much harder for no profitable reason. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Devore Sekk wrote:Aesheera wrote:Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge. Wut? Half decent mercs aren't cheap. Hiring a bunch of bozos with some PvP ships is just throwing your money away, especially without neutral rr. You miss my point, the influx of people offering themselves as mercs is going to skyrocket and honestly, why would a decced corp even care if the people that offer themselves for free are worth their salt?
The more they can rally in their defense the better right?
Especially with the 0 limit. Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
14
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Ifly Uwalk wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is. Allinces/corps should have a tax on members that becomes an ISK sink Ie 100m per month per member which would encourage corps to ditch dead beats and prevent them from filling up with alts to boost the price of war. It would also make alting much harder for no profitable reason.
A Corp member tax will not work. If it was 100mil per month per member, it would be cheaper to be in an NPC corp and just pay the high tax when you rat or do missions. The shutdown of almost all the player corps would be the only result. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
374
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Ifly Uwalk wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is. Allinces/corps should have a tax on members that becomes an ISK sink Ie 100m per month per member which would encourage corps to ditch dead beats and prevent them from filling up with alts to boost the price of war. It would also make alting much harder for no profitable reason. A Corp member tax will not work. If it was 100mil per month per member, it would be cheaper to be in an NPC corp and just pay the high tax when you rat or do missions. The shutdown of almost all the player corps would be the only result. Not that I agree with the idea per se, but what if the tax was 500,000 ISK per week? You know, exactly what the aggressor would have to pay per member in the case of war? |
Tigris Liono
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.05.03 10:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aesheera wrote:
Who will even bother wardeccing someone? Heck RvB will probably shutdown with this mechanic since the costs for their - in my opinion - amazing Empire war operation will be nigh unfundable for a prolonged amount of time.
[snip]
Just a thought, but RvB's war is mutual, so it doesn't cost anything (although, I may be misinformed, please feel free to correct me if this is so)
If that option stays with the new system, RvB will be able to carry on as they see fit. |
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
38
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Posted - 2012.05.03 10:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Devore Sekk wrote:Aesheera wrote:Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge. Wut? Half decent mercs aren't cheap. Hiring a bunch of bozos with some PvP ships is just throwing your money away, especially without neutral rr.
If my understanding is correct, the defender won't have to pay any fee to bring in allies (ie fee to CONCORD), other than what those allies want. What we'll do (and I suspect many other groups will do) is run around joining decs for free. If you're a defender, why would you ever pay for mercs when a bunch of HS dec corps (many of whom are better than the listed mercs) are willing to jump in for free so they don't have to pay eleventy-billion ISK/week for decs? |
qu1ckkkk
The Warp Core Stabilizers Purgat0ry
2
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Posted - 2012.05.03 10:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aesheera wrote: Limit the number of recruitable allies to 2 corps or a number of people relevant to the aggressors member count in one way or the other. This is the only semi sensible 'proposal' you have :/
Aesheera wrote: Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage.
I suspect someone got some 'suddently logistics' recently? lol. Proposing GCC for this is lame haha. Agression like anything else is fine, but GCC... lol lol |
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
135
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Posted - 2012.05.03 11:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP's argument is that you should have to pay more to have more targets to shoot at, but the fundamental issue with that is that it provides built in protection for larger entities that should theoretically be able to protect themselves better anyways.
Additionally, the cost scaling with having more targets and being able to fund the war with loot drops under the proposed new model doesn't really scale very well either, even in a best case scenario.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
374
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:CCP's argument is that you should have to pay more to have more targets to shoot at, but the fundamental issue with that is that it provides built in protection for larger entities that should theoretically be able to protect themselves better anyways.
Additionally, the cost scaling with having more targets and being able to fund the war with loot drops under the proposed new model doesn't really scale very well either, even in a best case scenario. Even worse, CCP is basing this model on a fallacy. The only way it works is if you completely disregard the whole concept of risk and reward. To implement this model without offsetting the fees based on the attacker/defender ratio is complete foolishness. The small corporation that takes on the challenge of attacking a large alliance is severely penalized, while the large alliance taking on the small corporation is rewarded not just with the intrinsic ability to more easily spread the war fee cost amongst its members, but with a much lower fee in general.
It's utterly ridiculous. |
Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
351
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Posted - 2012.05.03 12:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
War cost - remember that the changed version is NOT YET on Sisi, what is on Sisi right now is the original, old changes we implemented before Fanfest. Expect new version tomorrow.
That is the reply I got from CCP when I asked the question regarding the high cost since it was originally raised at fanfest already. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist.
The Crazy African |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1453
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Posted - 2012.05.03 13:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Aesheera wrote:Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage. No, this is absurd. Just have them take 15 minutes war aggression as they do now, PLUS the 1 minute aggression timer that prevents them from docking or jumping. Then they can no longer escape and are valid targets to the people whose enemies they assisted. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
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Posted - 2012.05.03 14:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
qu1ckkkk wrote:Aesheera wrote: Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage. I suspect someone got some 'suddently logistics' recently? lol. Proposing GCC for this is lame haha. Agression like anything else is fine, but GCC... lol lol You obviously dont know me and my fields of activity, which is fine. But the fact that you disagree with NEUTRAL logi's needing a fix in general shows you have very little experience in Empire PvP.
Im fine with Logi's, up to the point that it becomes abusive in High Sec in the shapes of neutral rep alts.
It *needs* to be looked at, it's current state is utterly ********. There need to be consequences for using them when theyre not part of your corp/alliance. Make them turn suspect on the spot, aka criminal flagged, semi similar to GCC without Concord and Sentry intervention. That way it returns to the 'what you see is what you get' type of Logi supported PvP. I believe this was already discussed at fanfest and tbh, it would be a very welcome change. Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1453
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Also, this. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
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Posted - 2012.05.03 14:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Liking. Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
qu1ckkkk
The Warp Core Stabilizers Purgat0ry
2
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Posted - 2012.05.03 14:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aesheera wrote: But the fact that you disagree with NEUTRAL logi's needing a fix in general shows you have very little experience in Empire PvP.
Have you actually read what I said? Apart from the fact that your neut logi debate is fail, its off topic.
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: No, this is absurd. Just have them take 15 minutes war aggression as they do now, PLUS the 1 minute aggression timer that prevents them from docking or jumping. Then they can no longer escape and are valid targets to the people whose enemies they assisted.
What this man said is exactly what I agree to. I hope you read this thoroughly before continuing on your off topic rant.
/thread |
NoxiousPluK
Abyssal Frontier Jovian Empire
25
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Posted - 2012.05.03 14:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Aesheera wrote:Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage. No, this is absurd. Just have them take 15 minutes war aggression as they do now, PLUS the 1 minute aggression timer that prevents them from docking or jumping. Then they can no longer escape and are valid targets to the people whose enemies they assisted. I'm up for this also. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
117
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Posted - 2012.05.03 14:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
These prices are too much for my merc corp.
And a 4b+/week wardec fee is indeed madness.
1) The base cost is too much. 50m to wardec a one-man corp ? Meh. 2) A linear 500k/toon is a very bad design. LOG FUNCTION TO THE RESCUE (or root). |
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