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Del Jouhannen
Delphinian Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.09.15 02:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been playing with EVE HQ fittings for ships and trying to get the best DPS (damage per second) numbers tank ability. What I was wondering is what sort of numbers are 'good' for mission running 3/4, or PvP for example.
300? 400? 500?
I'm shield tanking either passive or active depending on ship but I realized I don't have any benchmarks to know what is considered having a good chance of success in PvP.
For battleships and battlecruisers is what I'm looking at too. Any advice from those experienced players would be helpful. I've only been on EVE for less than 2 months :) |
Gregor Palter
15
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Posted - 2011.09.15 02:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tank for lvl 3 should be around 300 if you want to be on the safe side. LVL 4 can be anything from 400ish to 1k depending on the mission (most of those difficult missions tend to be faction ones which you could ignore as not to get too much negative standing). Also realise that it's not just tank; if you do crappy damage you'll need to tank a lot, if you do massive damage you need to tank less. Generally, if you aim for 600ish for lvl 4s you should be fine.
PVP works entirely different, whereas PVE tends to be a drawn out fight favouring active tanking, PVP is mostly a short burst of violence where active tanks struggle too much in most situations. And that doesn't even account for the cap use, required micro management and possibly being neuted. Therefore most PVP ships are fitted for EHP (HP+resists). |
Del Jouhannen
Delphinian Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.09.15 03:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks for the advice. That's that's certainly good things to think about. I have come to realize that capacitor stability is 'pretty darn important' for fitting a ship, and maxing shield and energy management etc. to get the most out of it.
For relative noobs like me reading this, check the 'Relevant skills' part of EVE HQ for what you're designing and train up. There are skills out there I had no idea about. I have no vested interest in EVE HQ by the way, I just found it to be extremely helpful to figure out what I'm doing. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
60
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Posted - 2011.09.15 04:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
I tank level 4 missions with 700m/s and 140m sig radius. My ship has a shield booster fitted, but I never use it. Not boasting, just trying to raise your awareness that tanking is more than just activating a module to produce +HP faster than the enemy are giving you -HP.
For more inspiration in the world of tanking, try this post on the old forums: A comprehensive new player guide to tanking.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
32
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Posted - 2011.09.15 07:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
You could also do what I usually do... overtank like hell (based on tired and true fits that people present) and then shed some of it bit by bit (replacing it with DPS) until you find the perfect balance of tank and gank for your skill level. It's a trial and error process that does involve a bit of ISK... but once you get a general feel for it then you don't need to perform the process again. And as your skills advance you can shed even more tank in favor of more DPS (if you so desire). "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Ruban Spangler
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2011.09.15 07:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
For missioning a good practical way to determine your tank is to build up the number of damage modules. So for example pick a mission you know or have researched and run it with a single damage module. If you have no issues tanking it then use two damage modules and see if you can work up to three.
If you have the isk you can boost your tank and damage using faction modules. Many people often overlook implants. The +3% skill implants are relatively cheap and can boost shield armour or damage.
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Ruban Spangler
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2011.09.15 07:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
double post |
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
10
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Posted - 2011.09.15 07:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
General rule of thumb for lvl 4 is that your tank + your dps has to be over 1000.
So you can do it with 500 tank and 500 dps, or 300 dps and 700 tank. As any other rule of thumb, this is merely a easy to remember guideline. Always overtank a bit at first, then gradually go for less tank and more dps as you grow comfortable with your ship.
I found that I can easily do lvl 3 with about 150 tank and 300 dps. Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior. |
Bilbo II
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Fatal Ascension
10
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Posted - 2011.09.15 13:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Del Jouhannen wrote:Thanks for the advice. That's that's certainly good things to think about. I have come to realize that capacitor stability is 'pretty darn important' for fitting a ship, and maxing shield and energy management etc. to get the most out of it. For relative noobs like me reading this, check the 'Relevant skills' part of EVE HQ for what you're designing and train up. There are skills out there I had no idea about. I have no vested interest in EVE HQ by the way, I just found it to be extremely helpful to figure out what I'm doing.
Cap stability is very important in pve, but, in pvp the fight is almost always over in a miute or less so don't waste fitting slots to make your cap last much longer than that ,imo. |
Gregor Palter
15
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Posted - 2011.09.15 19:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cap stability is not at all important for missions, in fact with most BS for lvl 4 it's undesired. First of all because cap recharge isn't linear; you don't have to perma tank (unless your applied dps is low) so you can stop repping when your HP is back up decently well and your cap is around 25-30%, then the recharge is MUCH higher than elsewhere and you'll gain back cap really fast so you can start repping again.
Secondly; making most active tanking ship cap stable involves lots of CCC rigs, cap rechargers and cap power relays. Slots which could be put to better use to increase your damage. rigor rigs for missiles, sentry rigs for droneboats and damage/range mods for turrets. So if you drop the all CCC/CR/CPR nonsense and replace that with a single mod called a capacitor booster you gain a lot of extra damage, making your ship way more efficient.
Sure using a cap booster takes some effort and all that but if that means you do missions much faster then that's a logical trade-off. |
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.15 20:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gregor Palter wrote:Cap stability is not at all important for missions, in fact with most BS for lvl 4 it's undesired. First of all because cap recharge isn't linear; you don't have to perma tank (unless your applied dps is low) so you can stop repping when your HP is back up decently well and your cap is around 25-30%, then the recharge is MUCH higher than elsewhere and you'll gain back cap really fast so you can start repping again.
Secondly; making most active tanking ship cap stable involves lots of CCC rigs, cap rechargers and cap power relays. Slots which could be put to better use to increase your damage. rigor rigs for missiles, sentry rigs for droneboats and damage/range mods for turrets. So if you drop the all CCC/CR/CPR nonsense and replace that with a single mod called a capacitor booster you gain a lot of extra damage, making your ship way more efficient.
Sure using a cap booster takes some effort and all that but if that means you do missions much faster then that's a logical trade-off.
"Just slap a cap booster on it and you're gravy!"
Meanwhile rookies who have a harder time coping with dynamic environments where their lack of experience and ingrained knowledge of the game mechanics can cause them to panic or flounder are cursing the people that act like it is so easy.
The poster should take the well seasoned and more retrospective advice given to him and start big (stable tank) and work his way down to a fit that has the right amount of tank, and yes, cap stability, for his skills, not only in skillpoints but in experience and understanding of the game.
A month old player should not be told to take a battleship that may very well be half of what they own, and just slap a cap booster on it and run amok in L4s.
Just because veterans already know how to micromanage these things and some rookies catch on quicker than others does not mean we should be telling every rookie that strolls through here to immediately go from Rookie to Advanced with no Intermediate in between.
Please do not mistake this for me telling you that you are wrong, I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying in a limited scope, but disagree with it being sage advice for a rookie player right out of the starting gates.
The answer:
foksieloy wrote:General rule of thumb for lvl 4 is that your tank + your dps has to be over 1000.
So you can do it with 500 tank and 500 dps, or 300 dps and 700 tank. As any other rule of thumb, this is merely a easy to remember guideline. Always overtank a bit at first, then gradually go for less tank and more dps as you grow comfortable with your ship.
I found that I can easily do lvl 3 with about 150 tank and 300 dps. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Gregor Palter
15
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Posted - 2011.09.15 20:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
You should probably check my earlier reply in the thread, replying to the OP. The reply you started raging about was aimed at the last post before that one. Also, it's not difficult to use cap boosters, all it takes is some time to get used to it.
Instead of giving new players bogus info like "mining is good income" and "cap stability is a good thing", how about giving them actual valuable info, you know factual stuff. I'm sure they can take it. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.15 20:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gregor Palter wrote:You should probably check my earlier reply in the thread, replying to the OP. The reply you started raging about was aimed at the last post before that one. Also, it's not difficult to use cap boosters, all it takes is some time to get used to it.
Instead of giving new players bogus info like "mining is good income" and "cap stability is a good thing", how about giving them actual valuable info, you know factual stuff. I'm sure they can take it.
If I was raging, I'd hate to see what you call calm, probably involves lots of toe tags and cold storage?
Anyways my point stands, telling rookies to just slap cap boosters on any and all battleships is shortsighted and smacks of veteran's myopia.
There is nothing bogus about telling a rookie player that starting from a point of relative safety and a more congenial fit for someone who lacks the immediacy of a veteran player's knowledge and reaction times is a good place for them to learn the ins and outs of the game, while working their way up the food chain. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Gregor Palter
15
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Posted - 2011.09.15 21:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sure, but that's something entirely different from "cap stability is very important" which the person I replied to voiced. Instead of "cap stability is everything" and then after a year or so saying "well, we kinda lied to you or we didn't know any better ourselves" how about "cap stability is unwanted in most lvl 4 BS setups but if you're really new to it all you could decide to use a stable setup to start out, as a crutch". Ofcourse I realise that people have different playstyles, RL issues that might affect game play and all that but I'd rather be factual with an addendum than add to memes like "caldari is PVE god", "raven is everything" and "be cap stable".
I WISH that back when I started playing someone would have come along and put the smack down stating facts, handing out proper knowledge rather than low-effort idiots spouting nonsense memes (not saying you are), would have saved me a whole lot of time and annoyance back then. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.15 22:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gregor Palter wrote:Sure, but that's something entirely different from "cap stability is very important" which the person I replied to voiced. Instead of "cap stability is everything" and then after a year or so saying "well, we kinda lied to you or we didn't know any better ourselves" how about "cap stability is unwanted in most lvl 4 BS setups but if you're really new to it all you could decide to use a stable setup to start out, as a crutch". Ofcourse I realise that people have different playstyles, RL issues that might affect game play and all that but I'd rather be factual with an addendum than add to memes like "caldari is PVE god", "raven is everything" and "be cap stable".
I WISH that back when I started playing someone would have come along and put the smack down stating facts, handing out proper knowledge rather than low-effort idiots spouting nonsense memes (not saying you are), would have saved me a whole lot of time and annoyance back then.
True true... I also do NOT miss asking similar questions myself when I was a newbie and getting "haha lulz noob fit all DPS if you wanna be 1337!"
I appreciate you better clarifying your point and concede that you did not intend it to come across as the way you did, or at the least, that you have taken the time to explain that you meant it in a different way than I assumed.
I had a corpsmate back in early '08 that followed the 'omg dps' philosophy and fit his Navythron with nothing but gank, an afterburner, and a repper... needless to say he lost 3x of them in L4s in as many weeks, cuz he had absolutely no idea what he was doing, he was just following what others told him to do, rofl.
Anyways good stuff! ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
21
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Posted - 2011.09.15 23:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
In a Raven Navy Issue I orbit at 105 km. Nothing touches me at that range, so the only time I take significant damage is when I get aggro from the initial group on warp-in, or against Angels as they are swift. While at 105 km I turn off all my tanking modules and just run an afterburner.
In my Tengu, I warp in and just shoot everything because nothing in a level 4 mission can hurt it. It has 716 DPS of tank and a small 150m signature.
Cap stability is overrated. Don't pile on the capacitor modules when you can use a single cap booster module, and use the slots you saved for more tank and gank modules. |
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2011.09.16 02:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
The most effective tank maximizes damage dealt so that they can't hit you. |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2011.09.16 15:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gregor Palter wrote:Cap stability is not at all important for missions, in fact with most BS for lvl 4 it's undesired. First of all because cap recharge isn't linear; you don't have to perma tank (unless your applied dps is low) so you can stop repping when your HP is back up decently well and your cap is around 25-30%, then the recharge is MUCH higher than elsewhere and you'll gain back cap really fast so you can start repping again.
Secondly; making most active tanking ship cap stable involves lots of CCC rigs, cap rechargers and cap power relays. Slots which could be put to better use to increase your damage. rigor rigs for missiles, sentry rigs for droneboats and damage/range mods for turrets. So if you drop the all CCC/CR/CPR nonsense and replace that with a single mod called a capacitor booster you gain a lot of extra damage, making your ship way more efficient.
Sure using a cap booster takes some effort and all that but if that means you do missions much faster then that's a logical trade-off.
Yes, I must admit I've always used a cap booster even in missions. I've tried cap recharger fits but I find they're actually more tiring to use than a booster. With a booster you just notice you're low on cap and inject a charge or two and forget about it, with recharger fits you have to be always slightly monitoring cap usage (because you have no reserve).
But the biggest annoyance about recharger fits is the loss of midslots for more "interesting" modules (e.g. Tracking comps, drone mods, etc., etc.)
Maybe it's just a personal thing.
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Flakey Foont
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.09.17 01:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Gregor Palter wrote:Cap stability is not at all important for missions, in fact with most BS for lvl 4 it's undesired. First of all because cap recharge isn't linear; you don't have to perma tank (unless your applied dps is low) so you can stop repping when your HP is back up decently well and your cap is around 25-30%, then the recharge is MUCH higher than elsewhere and you'll gain back cap really fast so you can start repping again.
Secondly; making most active tanking ship cap stable involves lots of CCC rigs, cap rechargers and cap power relays. Slots which could be put to better use to increase your damage. rigor rigs for missiles, sentry rigs for droneboats and damage/range mods for turrets. So if you drop the all CCC/CR/CPR nonsense and replace that with a single mod called a capacitor booster you gain a lot of extra damage, making your ship way more efficient.
Sure using a cap booster takes some effort and all that but if that means you do missions much faster then that's a logical trade-off.
This^^^
Cap stability will gimp your DPS. Level 4s are about gank.
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Vai Tanis
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2011.09.18 09:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
I wrote a big detailed post there and the forums ate it. Anyway, the gist of it was:
-When you're new go for a sniper fit ship. Cruise missiles, beams or artillery. It'll not only help with incoming DPS dropping due to range it'll also give you more time to react which is crucial for a new pilot. Save blazing through a BS squadron with autocannons firing at point blank range for when you're a lot more skilled and experienced.
-Fit an afterburner to help maintain range. Also cuts down missile damage slightly.
-Train and use Tech II drones. Lvl 4s have web/scram frigates that will hold you in place while the big guns pound you to scrap, and a BS will have serious trouble hitting one of them.
-Learn whether or not you can multitask. A fit with a cap booster will give more raw tank and more DPS than a cap stable fit, but that won't help if you forget to switch them off and drain your cap dry.
Tanking is more than just raw numbers. Range, speed, sig radius and transversal will all affect the amount of incoming damage you receive, even in a BS. I practised in lvl 3s for quite a while when I was new before stepping up into lvl 4s, you can play around with the practicalities of tanking in lvl 3s while you watch how much damage you've got coming in without being in as much danger or as expensive a ship as in lvl 4s. |
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