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Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
32
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Disclaimer: Not a carebear blah blah, didn't lose any hulks blah blah, don't live in Hi blah blah.
Matter at Hand:
Eve is a Sandbox or tries to be as much as possible. What is not "sandboxable" is the ship designs of Eve. They are sort of given to us by magical beings deciding what we can fly and what we can't.
As with any thing in Human history when one thing failed things started to adapt. We see this in fleet doctrines or fits for ships.
What we do not see is the ship design itself change. What am I getting at?
Mining ships. It makes no sense, from any fluffy perspective that ships continuously ganked never develops and becomes able to counter that thread. Few times in history have people insisted on being so ******** as to continue doing the same mistake over and over. No place in Eve has ever been safe enough for any ship design as paper thin as an exhumer to be designed in the first place!
One should think that an Engineer had at least enough some entrepreneurial spirit as to create a mining design not popin on sight. The resource is worth it. Current ship design just plain weird.
Faq: q) omfg omfg omfg carebear don't want suicide ganks. a) Yes I do. But lets put some fun into it. School Yard bully only fun for so long?
q) Your a botter a) No.
q) You just butthurt a) Not really. I just haven't lost faith in common sense
q) Don't fly what you can't afford to lose a) I don't
q) Have you tried mining a) Yes
q) Why should I care? a) Dunno, maybe you just will?
tbc |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
214
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yup, that is actually pretty accurate.
+1
Nothing clever at this time. |
Alara IonStorm
2082
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Business 101.
Guy buys Mining Ship > Mining Ship is destroyed > Guy buys new Mining Ship.
They don't have much incentive to put money into designing something when everyone just keeps buying new current Mining Ships after getting ganked.
Like how new light bulbs burn out quicker then ones made in the 30's. |
Rezig Huruta
AD ASTRA Interstellar
8
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
So, how about using a buffer ship... maybe I don't know... shield transfer arrays and other such things to last a bit longer until the baddies get Concorded?
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4012
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
There's this one hull that can be fit to mine pretty well and fit a great tank.
You may have heard of it, it's called the Rokh. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
575
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Andski wrote:There's this one hull that can be fit to mine pretty well and fit a great tank.
You may have heard of it, it's called the Rokh. Yay for the rokh ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
33
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?).
My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast.
I mean I would almost be able to find investors on this real planet called earth:
http://www.economist.com/node/21553419 |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
41
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
As far as the Hulk goes... A fool and his ISK are soon parted. |
Alara IonStorm
2083
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote:Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?).
My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast.
That's great but no one would buy it. ORE holds pattens on all their Mining Gear and would never sell permission to use it to you.
Your Ship would Mine less then a Hulk, about as much as a Rokh really if you are lucky. No one would invest the capital you need because surprise, surprise they are all investing in ORE.
Why are they investing in ORE? Besides being industry leaders all their Ships are easily destroyed so they end up triple billing everyone. You would never make enough to reverse engineer the technology.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4014
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote:Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?). My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast. I mean I would almost be able to find investors on this real planet called earth: http://www.economist.com/node/21553419
This is about balance - the Hulk has great mining abilities, but that comes at the expense of the ability to take damage.
It does not take much to kill a gank-fit Catalyst - one HAC/BC will take care of it quickly. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
33
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Andski wrote:Archdaimon wrote:Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?). My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast. I mean I would almost be able to find investors on this real planet called earth: http://www.economist.com/node/21553419 This is about balance - the Hulk has great mining abilities, but that comes at the expense of the ability to take damage. It does not take much to kill a gank-fit Catalyst - one HAC/BC will take care of it quickly.
Of course it is about balance. But currently the setup is so off balance it should be obvious.
Another piece of evidence is the weird manifesto from our dear James(whatever)(tm) about carebears destroying Eve. What he is right about is that no one dares to mine. Those that do either failed math at school or I don't know is masochists or something.
If we want a game of hunted and hunters, there must be a food chain. Currently Mining itself has ******** gameplay but combine it with ******** ship designs make it even more inbearable.
In short. Bad mining design kills pew!
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Merrc
Shrike Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
I would like to see a new ship also, unkillable no, but damn Hulks are dated ( I cant even remember are they circa 2006?) There is a larger consumption of ore now but no one designs a larger mining vessel? Carriers, Dreads,Titans...but the ship that helps build many of these... sometimes I think the Orca was initially designed to be a mining vessel but was viewed as too powerful, lets pull the srtip miners and give it Tractors |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
207
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.
I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what! |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
828
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
lol space ship designers have to adapt so incompetent pilots don't have to |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
288
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.
I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what!
wololololol
******* owned
end thread
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.
I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what!
I'm down with this. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
41
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
VERY good thread. Actually OP, the Exhumers were supposed to be these ships.
CCP just dumped them on the miners then promptly ignored ALL their failings, then killed mining with drone alloys and nobody really cared much afterwards.
Stupidly CCP now killed "gun mining" for good thinking there was some actual viable gameplay to replace that. Well, whoopidy-effin-doodah, there isn-¦t!
Hulkageddon perfectly proves that, which I-¦m actually glad the Goons are doing. Nothing like cold hard data to show how stupid the whole mining gameplay is ATM. Which after all now provides the minerals and thus the whole backbone of EVE-¦s industry.
The food chain metaphor is perfect here. There is now indeed NO real food chain left. Only big fish eating the smaller ones.
The PVP masterminds will eventually have to start their own mining OPs, and I can-¦t wait to watch how that one will pan out. Bet Goonswarm mining will be a sight to behold.
Or rather not .. as even the Mitani can-¦t polish that turd shiny enough for his merry bunch of bastiches. |
Merrc
Shrike Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.
I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what!
Something like the TIII battlecruisers ? |
Thomas Orca
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
87
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
ivar R'dhak wrote: The food chain metaphor is perfect here. There is now indeed NO real food chain left. Only big fish eating the smaller ones.
I'm curious as to what you think a food chain is. |
ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
41
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Thomas Orca wrote:I'm curious as to what you think a food chain is. It begins with plankton or in EvE-¦s case miner "pond scum". "Food chainy" enough for you? |
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seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
157
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Oh look, another one of these threads, oh look, what's worse is it's a alliance member
Show me a decent buffer tanked hulk that's lost to gankers (start with a DC2 )... That's because pretty much everyone mining sticks survey scanners and cargohold expanders/mining upgrades in their respective mids and lows. When I start seeing actual tanked hulks on lossmails to gankers then i'll side with any one of these terrible threads |
Thomas Orca
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
ivar R'dhak wrote:Thomas Orca wrote:I'm curious as to what you think a food chain is. It begins with plankton or in EvE-¦s case miner "pond scum". "Food chainy" enough for you? And what we have now is not reminiscent of that how? |
ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
42
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Posted - 2012.05.05 02:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thomas Orca wrote:ivar R'dhak wrote:Thomas Orca wrote:I'm curious as to what you think a food chain is. It begins with plankton or in EvE-¦s case miner "pond scum". "Food chainy" enough for you? And what we have now is not reminiscent of that how? And what we have now is reminiscent of that how? |
Torneach
Hedion University Amarr Empire
28
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Posted - 2012.05.05 02:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:Oh look, another one of these threads, oh look, what's worse is it's a alliance member Show me a decent buffer tanked hulk that's lost to gankers (start with a DC2 )... That's because pretty much everyone mining sticks survey scanners and cargohold expanders/mining upgrades in their respective mids and lows. When I start seeing actual tanked hulks on lossmails to gankers then i'll side with any one of these terrible threads
Agreed 100%.
With halfway decent skills, anyone can tank a Hulk extremely well, at the cost of mining output.
But for some reason, that would be just terrible.
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Thomas Orca
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
87
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Posted - 2012.05.05 02:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
ivar R'dhak wrote: And what we have now is reminiscent of that how?
Miners are the bottom of our food chain; they are the producers of our little food chain. With the removal of gun mining, the vast majority of minerals produced comes from them.
Next, one of our primary consumers, if you subscribe to the carebear philosophy that ganking is solely for those who are terrible as "Real PvP", is the ganker. They kill the miners for their modules and maybe some ore.
Thirdly, if you again subscribe that carebear philosophy with the addition of the ideals of Nullsec alliances that lowsec pilots are terrible, are the lowsec pilots, who kill miners and other unprepared people who wander into lowsec. They make up our secondary consumers.
Forth, you have the nullsec alliances. Again, consuming everything below them in the food chain, especially if they wander into their respective nullsec territories. They are our tertiary consumers.
Finally, you have the leet pvpers, who are our apex predators.
EDIT: Then industrialists are our decomposers, who take the remains of all the other trophic levels, and turn them into usable resources. |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
217
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thomas Orca wrote:... blah blah ... words to stroke my epeen
I'd like to see your permission slip allowing pets to post.
Nothing clever at this time. |
Emiko Luan
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
55
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Posted - 2012.05.05 02:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
You can already trade tank for yield, Battleships have more tank for less yield. The final result is what matters, not the ORE logo on the side of the ship. +welcome to my world+ http://venomzer0.deviantart.com |
Thomas Orca
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nick Bison wrote:
I'd like to see your permission slip allowing pets to post.
You're just jealous because you have no owner alliance to love and adore you. |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
217
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thomas Orca wrote:Nick Bison wrote:
I'd like to see your permission slip allowing pets to post.
You're just jealous because you have no owner alliance to love and adore you.
Bwaa haa haa ... good one.
Nothing clever at this time. |
Thomas Orca
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nick Bison wrote: Bwaa haa haa ... good one.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. |
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