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Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1509
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Posted - 2012.05.06 12:12:00 -
[91] - Quote
I agree to the OP, 100%.
Buff miners !
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
0
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Posted - 2012.05.06 12:14:00 -
[92] - Quote
Scien Inkunen wrote:Archdaimon wrote:Disclaimer: Not a carebear blah blah, didn't lose any hulks blah blah, don't live in Hi blah blah.
Matter at Hand:
Eve is a Sandbox or tries to be as much as possible. What is not "sandboxable" is the ship designs of Eve. They are sort of given to us by magical beings deciding what we can fly and what we can't.
.......... ? Than hire players who will protect you - spend some ISK in that - they get the fight, you get the (relative) security.
Nice idea, but how can other players effectively protect Your Hulk?
A group of lets say 3 - 4 destroyers will Kill the Hulk in less than 10 seconds + approximately two seconds of lock time, that's not really a lot of time. If You wanted to protect Your miners You'd either have to suicide gank the destroyers before they can do the same to Your hulky friends or You'd have to have ridiculous amounts of repping power.
Don't get me wrong, having so much repping power is entirely possible. You just need a lot of logistic ships to do so, but then those same players flying the logistics ships could be earning ridiculous amounts of isk by doing some incursions or doing plexes in null or low sec...
So there's two options I see there. You have enough money to pay for protection, in which case You'll probably end up bankrupt pretty soon, or You have enough friends, corp mates, companions etc. to protect You on a regular basis during Your mining "adventures", in which case You'll probably end up mining in null, pretty soon. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Scien Inkunen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.05.06 13:00:00 -
[93] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Scien Inkunen wrote:Archdaimon wrote:Disclaimer: Not a carebear blah blah, didn't lose any hulks blah blah, don't live in Hi blah blah.
Matter at Hand:
Eve is a Sandbox or tries to be as much as possible. What is not "sandboxable" is the ship designs of Eve. They are sort of given to us by magical beings deciding what we can fly and what we can't.
.......... ? Than hire players who will protect you - spend some ISK in that - they get the fight, you get the (relative) security. Nice idea, but how can other players effectively protect Your Hulk? A group of lets say 3 - 4 destroyers will Kill the Hulk in less than 10 seconds + approximately two seconds of lock time, that's not really a lot of time. If You wanted to protect Your miners You'd either have to suicide gank the destroyers before they can do the same to Your hulky friends or You'd have to have ridiculous amounts of repping power. Don't get me wrong, having so much repping power is entirely possible. You just need a lot of logistic ships to do so, but then those same players flying the logistics ships could be earning ridiculous amounts of isk by doing some incursions or doing plexes in null or low sec... So there's two options I see there. You have enough money to pay for protection, in which case You'll probably end up bankrupt pretty soon, or You have enough friends, corp mates, companions etc. to protect You on a regular basis during Your mining "adventures", in which case You'll probably end up mining in null, pretty soon.
Well, any protection is better than none. Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life ! |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
0
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Posted - 2012.05.06 13:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
Scien Inkunen wrote:
Well, any protection is better than none.
True, but the main problem here is, that the protection You need will just cost so much that it's not really something the average miner can afford. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
218
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Posted - 2012.05.06 14:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
Andski wrote:There's this one hull that can be fit to mine pretty well and fit a great tank.
You may have heard of it, it's called the Rokh.
Since the Rokh is the best mining ship these days, it may be viable that the bonuses get readjusted. At last a purpose for the Rokh! Everyone hail the Rokh. EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
Scien Inkunen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.05.06 14:08:00 -
[96] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Scien Inkunen wrote:
Well, any protection is better than none.
True, but the main problem here is, that the protection You need will just cost so much that it's not really something the average miner can afford.
Well, then they only can peacefully lose their ships. Or they can have members with fighting skills, not only miner or industrials. Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life ! |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
228
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Posted - 2012.05.06 14:46:00 -
[97] - Quote
seany1212 wrote: ... The fact is miners have ways to reduce their chances of getting ganked, most in highsec choose to be afk and defend their ship with cargo extenders and mining upgrades. ...
I would not call that a fact at all but your supposition. I can definitely see how you would come to that conclusion as the KBs mostly show Hulk kills fit that way.
My Hulks are all fit with what I call a deterant-tank; Shield resist rigs, DCUII, shield boost, Inv Fld etc ... is it gank-proof? Hell no! But, it does keep the guys looking for the quick gank away.
So, I guess I am saying "Thank you" for thinning out the herd of the dumb-miners and leaving more ore for me!
Nothing clever at this time. |
Gloomy Gus
GoonWaffe
303
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Posted - 2012.05.06 14:51:00 -
[98] - Quote
It's been said a billion times before, enough times that I'm ashamed to even post it, but since someone else hasn't ITT here I go.
HIRE COMBAT SHIPS.
EVE is intended to work that way. Noone is ever everything solo, at least not at anything close to peak effectiveness. EVE is designed to make many ship types work together. Do that.
"DIE N***ERS1 DIE!!!" - EVENEWS24's Riverini |
Pyotr Kamarovi
EVE University Ivy League
4
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Posted - 2012.05.06 15:06:00 -
[99] - Quote
Gloomy Gus wrote:It's been said a billion times before, enough times that I'm ashamed to even post it, but since someone else hasn't ITT here I go.
HIRE COMBAT SHIPS.
EVE is intended to work that way. Noone is ever everything solo, at least not at anything close to peak effectiveness. EVE is designed to make many ship types work together. Do that.
Wait, what? How do combat ships help? Are you saying they should sacrifice themselves by trying to alpha the gankers before they can get a volley off and take down the mining ship? How the hell does that work?
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stoicfaux
1015
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Posted - 2012.05.06 15:07:00 -
[100] - Quote
Gloomy Gus wrote:It's been said a billion times before, enough times that I'm ashamed to even post it, but since someone else hasn't ITT here I go.
HIRE COMBAT SHIPS.
EVE is intended to work that way. Noone is ever everything solo, at least not at anything close to peak effectiveness. EVE is designed to make many ship types work together. Do that.
Right idea (solo is bad,) wrong solution though (guards are expensive and and guard duty is boring.)
If criminals are perma-flagged as criminals (i.e. they're shoot on sight) after their first criminal act, then the community of players can effectively police high-sec. Gankers can still gank, high-sec carebears become more social in protecting themselves. Win win.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2012.05.06 15:08:00 -
[101] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Business 101.
Guy buys Mining Ship > Mining Ship is destroyed > Guy buys new Mining Ship.
They don't have much incentive to put money into designing something when everyone just keeps buying new current Mining Ships after getting ganked.
Like how new light bulbs burn out quicker then ones made in the 30's.
And yet theres ones burning from Ben Franklin's time
It would be rather neat if you could research on the ship youre in to increase the stats on the ship. Like as though you were revising the design of the ship. Expand the ship you have rather than just looking for the next ship up. Make jury-Rigging exactly that. The ship gets jury rigged to get more ability to fit a PROPER tank yet it compromises it in another fasion tat DOESNT screw it over and make it a Covetor. Have the jury rigging have a chance to fail entirely making everything on the ship fail till you get it repaired. IMO THATD be funny Make it insanely, prohibitively expensive or require 6 mnths of training, W/E that makes ships better.
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
228
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Posted - 2012.05.06 15:12:00 -
[102] - Quote
Gloomy Gus wrote:It's been said a billion times before, enough times that I'm ashamed to even post it, but since someone else hasn't ITT here I go.
HIRE COMBAT SHIPS.
EVE is intended to work that way. Noone is ever everything solo, at least not at anything close to peak effectiveness. EVE is designed to make many ship types work together. Do that.
Unfortunately, hiring combat ships, or bringing your own have NO EFFECT on an Empire Gank. The gankers have already factored in the loss of their ship so it doesn't matter to them if they die to CONCORD or your combat support guys. They have already ganked the miner before you can shoot!
In fact, I would guess they would prefer to be blown up by a combat support guy as they would then still get their insurance.
Nothing clever at this time. |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
63
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Posted - 2012.05.06 15:21:00 -
[103] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Business 101.
Guy buys Mining Ship > Mining Ship is destroyed > Guy buys new Mining Ship.
They don't have much incentive to put money into designing something when everyone just keeps buying new current Mining Ships after getting ganked.
Like how new light bulbs burn out quicker then ones made in the 30's.
Yes and no. Planned obsolescence has not prevented us from making technological improvements over the years, it has just ensured that the lifespan of these new products is kept short enough that we will buy the next wave of improved products.
Logic would dictate that if low defense & high-yield mining vessels are too fragile, someone would design either an equally high-yield version that has more defensive capability (but would be more expensive), or that some of the mining yield and cargo capacity would be sacrificed in the design of an equally priced yet more sturdy vessel.
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Thomas Orca
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
90
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Posted - 2012.05.06 15:53:00 -
[104] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:
Yes and no. Planned obsolescence has not prevented us from making technological improvements over the years, it has just ensured that the lifespan of these new products is kept short enough that we will buy the next wave of improved products.
Logic would dictate that if low defense & high-yield mining vessels are too fragile, someone would design either an equally high-yield version that has more defensive capability (but would be more expensive), or that some of the mining yield and cargo capacity would be sacrificed in the design of an equally priced yet more sturdy vessel.
You can already do the second one.
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Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
0
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Posted - 2012.05.06 16:17:00 -
[105] - Quote
Scien Inkunen wrote:
Well, then they only can peacefully lose their ships. Or they can have members with fighting skills, not only miner or industrials.
I believe this argument has already been discussed and, if I remember correctly, invalidated somewere else in this thread, right?
Having combat ships doesn't prevent any losses since the mining ships are so fragile that they'll die before the guard ships can even react. Taking into account the current ship insurance system it's even counterproductive to have an armed guard since the suicide ganking party won't receive their insurance payout as long as CONCORD kills them. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
848
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Posted - 2012.05.06 16:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
We're still on this stupid thread where whiny carebears insist that ship designers have to adapt before mindless hulk pilots do |
Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
50
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Posted - 2012.05.06 16:38:00 -
[107] - Quote
Still seems like a place where sadists only wants easy mode because they can't handle a challenge when presented with one. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
53
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Posted - 2012.05.06 16:46:00 -
[108] - Quote
Still seems like a place where miners only wants easy mode because they can't handle a challenge when presented with one. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Thomas Orca
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
91
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Posted - 2012.05.06 16:49:00 -
[109] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote:Still seems like a place where sadists only wants easy mode because they can't handle a challenge when presented with one.
You see, the problem is the things you are asking for (i.e adaptability in your internet spaceships) are already doable under current mechanics. There is no need for a new ship, because the role that you wish to be filled is already filled by existing ships. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
53
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Posted - 2012.05.06 16:53:00 -
[110] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:Logic would dictate that if low defense & high-yield mining vessels are too fragile, someone would design either an equally high-yield version that has more defensive capability (but would be more expensive), or that some of the mining yield and cargo capacity would be sacrificed in the design of an equally priced yet more sturdy vessel. They have already built the second type, it is called the Hulk. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
65
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Posted - 2012.05.06 17:21:00 -
[111] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Business 101.
Guy buys Mining Ship > Mining Ship is destroyed > Guy buys new Mining Ship.
They don't have much incentive to put money into designing something when everyone just keeps buying new current Mining Ships after getting ganked.
Like how new light bulbs burn out quicker then ones made in the 30's. And yet theres ones burning from Ben Franklin's time It would be rather neat if you could research on the ship youre in to increase the stats on the ship. Like as though you were revising the design of the ship. Expand the ship you have rather than just looking for the next ship up. Make jury-Rigging exactly that. The ship gets jury rigged to get more ability to fit a PROPER tank yet it compromises it in another fasion tat DOESNT screw it over and make it a Covetor. Have the jury rigging have a chance to fail entirely making everything on the ship fail till you get it repaired. IMO THATD be funny Make it insanely, prohibitively expensive or require 6 mnths of training, W/E that makes ships better.
I can hear the QQ now after dude spet 6 months and 100 billion yo retrofit his hulk into a battlehulk and it gets ganked
"It would be rather neat if you could research on the ship youre in to increase the stats on the ship. Like as though you were revising the design of the ship. Expand the ship you have rather than just looking for the next ship up. Make jury-Rigging exactly that. The ship gets jury rigged to get more ability to fit a PROPER tank yet it compromises it in another fasion tat DOESNT screw it over and make it a Covetor. Have the jury rigging have a chance to fail entirely making everything on the ship fail till you get it repaired. IMO THATD be funny Make it insanely, prohibitively expensive or require 6 mnths of training, W/E that makes ships better."
lol http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |
Ibrihm Esenhorn
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.05.06 18:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Business 101.
Guy buys Mining Ship > Mining Ship is destroyed > Guy buys new Mining Ship.
They don't have much incentive to put money into designing something when everyone just keeps buying new current Mining Ships after getting ganked.
Like how new light bulbs burn out quicker then ones made in the 30's.
That's not how business works - competition means that designers have an incentive to build a ship that is better than their rivals as a means to gain market share. The only way that mantaining the staus quo works is if there's collusion between providers, aka a cartel (and hey, what do you know - there's only one real supplier of ship designs in the EVE metaverse).
In the real world, incentive to undercut rivals tends to break apart cartels rather quickly unless there's some sort of governmental alliance to leverage the power of the state to force compliance with the cartel's policies.
Real world evidence - your tv is better than anything that could be bought 40 years ago, despite the fact that people keep buying them when they break.
And lightbulbs last longer than they did in the 1930's. |
Ibrihm Esenhorn
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.05.06 18:42:00 -
[113] - Quote
And a reply actually realted to the OP
Most of the play mechanics of EVE are multiplayer - i.e. require grouping
Miners are unarmed and squshy because you're sort of expected to group up and hire people specialized to defend you while you are specialized in mining and then share the profits between everyone.
Ideally the specialization means that everyone is the most efficient at their roles and total income is increased over having a bunch of miner/warship hybrids running around.
Man up, fleet up, and keep the **** up.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
600
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Posted - 2012.05.06 19:18:00 -
[114] - Quote
Ibrihm Esenhorn wrote:And a reply actually realted to the OP
Most of the play mechanics of EVE are multiplayer - i.e. require grouping
Miners are unarmed and squshy because you're sort of expected to group up and hire people specialized to defend you while you are specialized in mining and then share the profits between everyone.
Ideally the specialization means that everyone is the most efficient at their roles and total income is increased over having a bunch of miner/warship hybrids running around.
Man up, fleet up, and keep the **** up. Of course the problem is you gotta be careful about your fleet commanders or such. "Enemy incoming, take fleetwarp" which takes the lot of you into smartbombing typhoons would make things way too easy.
An awoxer would probably find it worthwhile to be able to take out a whole op worth of afk miners and their pods.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
51
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Posted - 2012.05.06 20:27:00 -
[115] - Quote
Ibrihm Esenhorn wrote:And a reply actually realted to the OP
Most of the play mechanics of EVE are multiplayer - i.e. require grouping
Miners are unarmed and squshy because you're sort of expected to group up and hire people specialized to defend you while you are specialized in mining and then share the profits between everyone.
Ideally the specialization means that everyone is the most efficient at their roles and total income is increased over having a bunch of miner/warship hybrids running around.
Man up, fleet up, and keep the **** up.
Wut, I mean, Wut?
So mr. experienced fleet commander. How would you tactically defend a hulk?
On a strategic level I get it. But not on a tactical level.
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Eric Konway
Silverwing Explorers Unfamiliar Presence
1
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Posted - 2012.05.06 21:30:00 -
[116] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:lol space ship designers have to adapt so incompetent pilots don't have to
Sounds like the design description of the Myrm. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
172
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Posted - 2012.05.06 22:01:00 -
[117] - Quote
Using mining as an example, ship spinners who use the forums to entertain themselves use dumbass ideas like 'Mine aligned' because it works in missions or null bear belt ratting. A Hulk can be as aligned as it wants, it won't get to warp speed before the lock and insta volley kills it. Even with perfect nav skills that won't happen. No logistics will save it from death either. The dps stucture is designed to kill any ship without a buffer tank and barges don't have buffer tanks.
To the OP's point, its like this in all ships of EVE. What are the chances of a true battleship being slowly eaten by a frigate? None, no chance in hell. In EVE? It's very easy to lose a battleship to a frigate. It just takes an eternity of structure grind.
T3 is in fact the adaptation. When CCP implement T3 as an all and any hull augmentation, then we will be able to bonus fit any ship. Bonus comes from subsystems, not from a preordained list that has too many boundaries to be effective. It will only happen when the mantra is changed from blow stuff up to Combat and PvP though. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
179
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Posted - 2012.05.07 00:18:00 -
[118] - Quote
Ibrihm Esenhorn wrote:And a reply actually realted to the OP
Most of the play mechanics of EVE are multiplayer - i.e. require grouping
...
Sorry, I read that, "groping." Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438 |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
120
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Posted - 2012.05.07 07:12:00 -
[119] - Quote
Quote:zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking.
Hi. Tier3 BattleCruisers would like to have a word with you. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4118
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Posted - 2012.05.07 07:19:00 -
[120] - Quote
Ocih wrote:Using mining as an example, ship spinners who use the forums to entertain themselves use dumbass ideas like 'Mine aligned' because it works in missions or null bear belt ratting. A Hulk can be as aligned as it wants, it won't get to warp speed before the lock and insta volley kills it.
you don't know what "being aligned" means do you
it means moving at 75% or more of your maximum speed in the direction you wish to warp
every ship can instantly enter warp by doing this, from frigates to titans "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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