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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.30 18:21:00 -
[391]
If something has a higher jam strength then your ship, it should jam you. If it doesn't, it shouldn't. It needs to be simplified.
Make ECM drones proportional to their size and have modules stack for the jam.
So if one drone is on you, with jam strength of like 8 for example and you have a strength of 12, it would take another drone to jam you.
ECCM would be more simple, you don't have it you get jammed, you do you increase the amount of jammers needed to jam you.
Black and white, cut and dry. Make caldari ships have exceptional sensor strength as a built in racial "plus" to improve them in pvp. Stop, hammer time. |
Zaraki KenpachiSan
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Posted - 2009.04.30 19:50:00 -
[392]
Ecm drones are fine, the most of the time i can't jam anything, so i don't see how can they be overpowered.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2009.04.30 20:14:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Cutie Chaser This thread shows how out of touch some people are with the game, and I say this for one reason...
EC-900? Seriously, why does this drone enter into this entire discussion AT ALL?
Beats me. If EC-900s were effective at all, then there would be a healthy market for them. It is possible to go a week in a large market hub and see less than 20 of them move - total. In a week. If EC-900s were useful, then there would be a lot more traffic than that. Actually, the traffic of all of the EWar drones, aside from the light and medium ECM drones, is minimal at best and there is a reason for that: They suck!
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.04.30 20:38:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Vitrael on 30/04/2009 20:39:39
Originally by: Mortuis Veritatem Can i see your killboard ? Jammed six times in 5 minutes even ? Well it is the way jamm works - RANDOM .You never can say then it hit you. And Hyper can't win against expiriensed Mael btw.
Right here, and this is the fight where I got jammed five times with 4 EC900s on a 49 SS ship. Not that that information helps you at all, it's just an anecdotal example.
Originally by: Mortuis Veritatem Problem in jamm mechanic not in ECM drones. Looks like Devs can't find the way to solve scoop/deploy ECM drones exploit and trying to fix it by nerfing drones.
Well with this I can agree. The best solution would be to remove the jamming effect completely from Eve. It's too powerful no matter how much you nerf it. I prefer Eve Online to Jammed Online.
Quote: Make caldari ships have exceptional sensor strength as a built in racial "plus" to improve them in pvp.
Yeah! Let's nerf the only good counter to Falcons by making them less vulnerable to other Falcons. -----
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2009.04.30 20:41:00 -
[395]
ECM drones are fine, the only reason ECM drones seem overpowered is for the same reason ECM in general does. The fact that you are simply screwed for a set period of time, and no skill, module, rig or ship attribute will change that time period makes it a very aggravating thing. And you will continue to hear people *****ing about all things ECM until the whole thing is reexamined.
With that said, the reason you don't see people using the other types of EWAR drones is that they are pretty much useless. The Neut drones can be used to some effect but that is because they are not really "EWAR". The problem with true EWAR drones (TP, TD, SD, SW) is the fact that the stacking penalties are so harsh on their tiny bonuses that they don't amount to ****.
Please look at it from the flipside and try boosting the other drones instead of destroying the few types that do work. Drone users are constantly getting shafted and it is about time we get a little loving. Try increasing they're bonuses, decreasing they're stacking penalties, Try making different sized variants of the webber drones. There is alot of ways to approach this "problem", and dont forget that what you may see as the problem, others see it as the only viable option out of a borked set of equipment.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
AngryMax
Gallente Executable Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.01 03:45:00 -
[396]
As someone who has been on the receiving end of ECM drones and doesnt have them trained i suggest to:
LEAVE THEM ALONE
If a pilot packs a set of ECM drones they deserve to have a "get out of jail" card because they are technically sacrificing big dps chunk in favor of that particular dynamic.
I really urge CCP to take a step back and look at what they are doing to the big picture of PVP. Everything is moving closer and closer together into a very narrow band of expression. Taking ECM drones out of the game (and you can disagree all you want but you know that with almost every nerf you have made so far you have effectively killed the affected item from being used: Arazu, EOS, Webbers, PolyCarbs... to name a few) will narrow that band even further.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Most of the time you're facing multiple ECM Drones, which can be quite tricky to target and destroy, it becomes quite annoying.
Being a victim is fairly tricky and annoying. That's the point of lose it all PVP isn't it?
It seems to me that balacing the game out has been taken to new heights by CCP recently. Almost as though someones job depends on it and they will lose it if they dont find something new to balance with every update.
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honey bunchetta
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Posted - 2009.05.01 11:59:00 -
[397]
You ppl do know that a max skilled falcon pilot with a racial ECM fitted has a optimal of 48km with 53km falloff now dont you?.
Even with 2 x ECM range rigs and 3 x SDA T2 it can only reach a optimal of 85km so unless it wishes to work well into falloff that only goes out to 138km with all those mods boosting it, a lot of ships in most versitile gangs should be able to hit it easily.
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JadeMako
Industrial Mite
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Posted - 2009.05.01 14:31:00 -
[398]
I hope CCP Nozh is ok, haven't seen him for ages...
Hope he hasn't got the flu. |
Mass'a Whipcracka
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Posted - 2009.05.01 20:54:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Mass''a Whipcracka on 01/05/2009 20:56:01 devs i am seeing a very common sentiment among ppl here, and that is that all EW drones need some looking at, not just taking the only one that it worth using and hitting it with the nerf bat.
maybe ew drones need to be completely reworked, like give them increased EW effectiveness per EW drone skill lvl. perhaps even have them sacrifice some EW for some damage so they do a little of both.
while ur fixing EW drones please take a look at faction drones, you teased us with them then made ridiculously low spawn rates in a very small section of the galaxy.
I do explo and i pass up most drone sites because they are not fun or worthwhile compared to other sites i could be finding, this is a common occurrence among ppl who do explo. if you would increase the drop rate and let the BPCs drop everywhere it would make alot of drone users happy and would make a big chunk of ur explo content get some actual use instead of ppl just find then leave till it despawns
Originally by: honey bunchetta
You ppl do know that a max skilled falcon pilot with a racial ECM fitted has a optimal of 48km with 53km falloff now dont you?.
Even with 2 x ECM range rigs and 3 x SDA T2 it can only reach a optimal of 85km so unless it wishes to work well into falloff that only goes out to 138km with all those mods boosting it, a lot of ships in most versitile gangs should be able to hit it easily.
PS falcon thread that way --->
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honey bunchetta
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Posted - 2009.05.02 10:55:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Mass'a Whipcracka
Originally by: honey bunchetta
You ppl do know that a max skilled falcon pilot with a racial ECM fitted has a optimal of 48km with 53km falloff now dont you?.
Even with 2 x ECM range rigs and 3 x SDA T2 it can only reach a optimal of 85km so unless it wishes to work well into falloff that only goes out to 138km with all those mods boosting it, a lot of ships in most versitile gangs should be able to hit it easily.
PS falcon thread that way --->
I was replying to this:
Originally by: Vitrael
Well with this I can agree. The best solution would be to remove the jamming effect completely from Eve. It's too powerful no matter how much you nerf it. I prefer Eve Online to Jammed Online.
Yeah! Let's nerf the only good counter to Falcons by making them less vulnerable to other Falcons.
Get it?.
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Vassai
Caldari Terracorp Inc. Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.02 11:37:00 -
[401]
Edited by: Vassai on 02/05/2009 11:38:00 Maybe its time to rebalance ECM itself not just drones?
Make ECM modules capable influancing sensor strength. For example, you have signal strength 10 and Multijummer can reduce it by 15% (20% for racial jammers). If the module applied at its optimal the strength will be reduced to 8.5 or lower (8.6 and higher) in case of faloff.
Stacking penalty will be also applied to ECM modules.
This wil influense the capability of ships to lock certain ships or ships with a certain signature. For example you have to have signal strength 10 at least to be able to lock ship with a signature 300m. 10 - 300 12 - 400 etc.
This will make smaller ships vulnerable to ECM and larger ships will be still able to lock smaller ships but may not lock larger.
In this case 2-3 ECCM modules fitted in a ship will make ECM useless because of stacking penalty.
In this case we will have 2 results: 1. Jam will become predictable. 2. ECCM module will be more needed against ECM than it is now.
Regarding to the drones - stacking penalty. 4 heavy drones = T1 multifrequency jammer and the 5th drone is useless because of stacking penalty.
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.02 12:10:00 -
[402]
Edited by: Issaries Valran on 02/05/2009 12:15:11
Originally by: CCP Nozh Ok,
I'm sitting at home reading over this thread. Brainstorming about new ECM mechanics, help me out:
Instead of the current mechanic where a successful ECM cycle breaks your lock for the given time of the ECM module. Your lock breaks, but you automatically start locking your target again. The duration would rely on your ability to target back your enemy, ECCM modules would essentially be sensor boosters. Could even add a fun twist to sensor dampening...
The class values would of course have to be tweaked a bit...
I think this idea to help fix ECM overall is a good idea, but it doesnĘt fix ECM drones. I also donĘt think ECM drones are the true problem here, I think E-war drones in general have a lot of problems to be resolved.
For one ECM drones, even with the changes to ECM you proposed are the only E-war drones worth using. I mean when was the last time you saw someone use Target Painter Drones or Tracking Disruptor Drones or any of the other E-war drones. I havenĘt seen anyone use them that I can remember, I would think the lack of use by the other E-war Drones would indicate that they could use some work too.
One of the other problems I see is that everyone uses the maximum number of these drones as they can field, making them a bit over powered. If one fails well that is ok you have 4 other chances for it to work. Even though ships have to lose DPS to field them that doesnĘt really hurt E-war Drones usefulness, especially since most ships that can use E-war Drones most effectively donĘt rely on drones for their DPS.
What I propose is a complete rework of E-war Drones all together. Why not buff all E-war Drones, I know that sounds strange we are all here talking about how to nurf ECM drones but hear me out, before flaming me. By buffing all E-war Drones and change a few other mechanics about how E-war Drones work I think we could make all E-war Drones useful again and add more diversity to Pvp all together and that wouldnĘt be a bad thing would it?
1.Condense all the different sized E-war Drones down to just one size. Something like making them letĘs say all medium sized Drone. Just about all ships that can field drones can field at least one Medium drone so they will be useful to a larger number of ships but you will have to decide if you want to field one E-war Drone or field 2 light combat Drones.
2.Buff all E-war drones so they are as effective as one t1 module.
3.Add some new skills to the game that will make the different types of E-war drones more effective if you train the skills. Something like a skill called, ECM Drone Effectiveness, this skill would make ECM Drones more effective by like 3% per level. And Target Painter Drone Effectiveness making Target Painter Drones 3% more effective per level. Making a new skill for each type of E-war Drone. You Figure out the Numbers and skill levels and all.
4.And this is the part that will help encourage people to use other E-war Drones and add more variety to PvP as a whole and is the important part of my proposed change to E-war Drones. You make it so you can only have one of E-war Drone of each type in your Drone bay at a time.
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.02 12:11:00 -
[403]
Edited by: Issaries Valran on 02/05/2009 12:17:40 What this means is no more fielding 2-3-4-5 of the same type of E-war drone. You wonĘt be able to have 5 ECM Drones in your drone bay anymore. But what this does mean and for hypothetical debates sake let say we have a drone bay big enough to field 5 medium drones, that you can have 1 ECM drone and 4 other medium combat drones. Or 1 ECM drone and 1 Target Painter Drone and 3 medium combat Drones. Or 1 ECM Drone and 1 Target Painter Drone and 1 Tracking Disruptor Drone and 2 Medium combat Drones. And so on up to a full bay of E-war drones as long as each one is of a different E-war type.
This would also work for Ships with smaller drone bays for hypothetical debates sake let us say you have a ship with only 30m3 space for drones. That means you can field 6 light combat drones. Or with this proposal you could have 1 ECM drone and 4 light combat Drones. OR you could go 1 ECM Drone and 1 Target Painter Drone and 2 light combat Drones or you could use 3 Different types of E-war drones.
What does this add to the game you might be asking, well for one it would add more choices to when choosing drones for your ship, do you want to use all combat Drones or add a 1 E-war drone or a few E-war drones to complement your combat drones. This would also make it so you may not always know what sort of drone your target will throw at you. You may get in a fight with some choosing to use multiple types of E-war against you. This would basically add an assortment of new options when choosing drone instead of it being Combat drone or ECM drones.
And by buffing all E-war Drones so they are of equal strength as a t1 module and adding some new skills to further enhance that power a little. People might actually be interested in use all the different types of E-war drones and be encouraged to mix and match them with the others and with the combat drones.
So what do you guys think? Should I put my fire ******ant cloths back on? Or is this a good proposal?
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Overbrain
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Posted - 2009.05.02 15:41:00 -
[404]
I just wanted to share this information . A friend of mine experienced in pvp said this would be so cool regarding ecm changes "that way great fights wont be ruined by ecm"
x> probably ecm will break your lock only but wont jam you x> you will immediately relock x> ecm's will be 10 sec cycle
Thats the three lines . Maybe a base 5 second minimal jam time which can be reduced fitting eccm modules ?
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Vampiress
Minmatar Oblivion. Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.02 15:46:00 -
[405]
i think u need to learn about the "boost" word and stop using "nerf" one to much cuz in this rate ..in 2010-2011 eve will be crap everything was fine back in 2006 ..with missiles / speed /nos / ecm ...but then one of those things got nerfed and this " balance " thing started and to balance the rest of the stuff is to nerf thats how u guys see it
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.05.02 15:52:00 -
[406]
Two obvious solutions come to mind, and neither is a nerfbatting of these drones(seriously, if you're giving up 300+ DPS, a one in three chance of jamming a BS isn't overpowered).
Firstly, if the complaint is that it takes a large smartbomb to damage them, drop the activation proximity on all three classes of ECM drone to 2500m, so that smalls can hit them too. This is actually a bit of a nerf, but the extra second before jamming starts on the heavies isn't too big a deal, and saying that drones ought to live in smartbomb range isn't unreasonable, given that smartbombs are only especially useful for anti-drone work and Jita 4/4 games.
Secondly, better drone AI would help immensely. If you had the ability to drop Hobgoblins and have them auto-target enemy drones, then the life of an ECM drone would be a painful one. It'd also provide a second weapon class that could deal with them while you're jammed. This has a lot of value on its own merits - drone AI has gotten a lot better, but it's still sketchy - but it'd also double as a nice solution to this problem.
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.05.02 17:29:00 -
[407]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 02/05/2009 17:31:21
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
damage them, drop the activation proximity on all three classes of ECM drone to 2500m, so that smalls can hit them too. This is actually
There is another problem with small smartbombs: (almost) nobody will fit them because of enormous PG/CPU requiremens. Just an Example: a small smartbomb takes 21% of PG on a Rifter. A Large Smartbomb on a Tempest: just 6%. Same for activation energy: Small smart on Rifter 12%. Large smart on Tempest 3%. CPU: 19% on Rifter, 11% on a Tempest.
Ok we also have micros but is anybody using them ?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.05.02 17:37:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 02/05/2009 17:31:21
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
damage them, drop the activation proximity on all three classes of ECM drone to 2500m, so that smalls can hit them too. This is actually
There is another problem with small smartbombs: (almost) nobody will fit them because of enormous PG/CPU requiremens. Just an Example: a small smartbomb takes 21% of PG on a Rifter. A Large Smartbomb on a Tempest: just 6%. Same for activation energy: Small smart on Rifter 12%. Large smart on Tempest 3%. CPU: 19% on Rifter, 11% on a Tempest.
Ok we also have micros but is anybody using them ?
Never said it was a perfect solution, just that it'd help. Would you rather have the ability to fight them in a Rifter while jammed or not? Besides, I'm looking for a tweak for the purposes of balance, not a massive nerfbatting. Make them vulnerable, not laughable.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.05.02 20:40:00 -
[409]
Edited by: Murina on 02/05/2009 20:40:24
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
damage them, drop the activation proximity on all three classes of ECM drone to 2500m, so that smalls can hit them too. This is actually
There is another problem with small smartbombs: (almost) nobody will fit them because of enormous PG/CPU requiremens. Just an Example: a small smartbomb takes 21% of PG on a Rifter. A Large Smartbomb on a Tempest: just 6%. Same for activation energy: Small smart on Rifter 12%. Large smart on Tempest 3%. CPU: 19% on Rifter, 11% on a Tempest.
Ok we also have micros but is anybody using them ?
Never said it was a perfect solution, just that it'd help. Would you rather have the ability to fight them in a Rifter while jammed or not? Besides, I'm looking for a tweak for the purposes of balance, not a massive nerfbatting. Make them vulnerable, not laughable.
No need to change the orbit of drones just increase the SB range of med and smalls to the same as large but keep the dmg they do the same as it is now.
A reduction in cap and fitting costs would not hurt either.
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Toramii
Le Moulin Rouge
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Posted - 2009.05.02 23:36:00 -
[410]
So, to fix ECM drones which the majority of posts above agree are not the big issue, are we now suggesting a boost to smartbombs which affects ALL (non-ECM) drones?
Given CCP's history of nerfs and never looking at the knock on consequences, lets just kick Gallente further in the nuts with poorly thought out solutions. (As if MWD, web, sensor damp nerf wasnt enough).
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.05.03 03:07:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Murina No need to change the orbit of drones just increase the SB range of med and smalls to the same as large but keep the dmg they do the same as it is now.
A reduction in cap and fitting costs would not hurt either.
Bad idea. Smartbomb ranges going up is something that can be unwanted - if it gets you Concorded, or even if it just means more gangmates getting hit, you'll regret that extra 6 km. Dropping ECM drone range is a far smaller and less disruptive change than upping smartbomb range, and it has the same effect in this context. I can't speak to cap and fitting costs, but if we want to have ECM drones vulnerable to smaller smartbombs, dropping range is the best way to do it.
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King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.05.03 05:17:00 -
[412]
As I said earlier in this, I don't view ECM drones as terribly problematic. They can be a get out of jail free card for ratters/mission runners trying to avoid getting ganked in low sec but it's hit and miss. The real problem is the core ECM mechanic of jamming an enemy ship. I think ECM as a whole should be changed to a defensive system similar to real life ECM. It makes the ship using ECM harder to target or creates false sensor contacts rather than making an enemy ship unable to lock. Basically a defensive sensor damp that applies only when someone is targeting you.
With this idea, ECM drones could create fake ships to confuse an opponent. If a thorax is using 5 mediums, then it could cause a different thorax to suddenly see 6 thorax's all with the player's name and info attached so they couldn't tell which was the real thorax. This would have a burn through range at some point where the deception could be overcome and only the real thorax would appear (plus the ECM drones as ECM drones rather than thorax's). Implementing this type of setup would likely be time consuming and difficult. Not sure it's realistic to ask for.
A more realistic option is to make killing ECM drones faster and easier. This is an easy fix as bumping up their sig radius and reducing hitpoints is all that's needed. It would make them much more vulnerable to smartbombs, your own drones and even your own guns. I see no reason why people can't add enemy ECM drones to overview. I don't do it but I live in low sec and use smartbombs.
The other EW drones need serious work. Light and medium webber drones are much needed and the strength on them should be upped a little. Perhaps remove the stacking penalty on them. TP drones are worthless because TP's are mostly worthless. I see no possible fix for them. Even if they give a +3000% sig radius effect, I still don't see them being very useful unless you want to gank a cruiser with a dread and even then, good luck getting decent tracking on it.
Neut drones I have no experience with, but looking on EFT, I don't see them being useful as is. They just don't do enough neuting. 5x medium neut drones do -50 cap every 6 seconds, a small t2 neut which pretty much any ship can fit does -54 cap every 6 seconds. So you'd have more luck with a single small neut than with 5x medium neut drones. That puts them into the utterly worthless category. I'm not sure anything bigger than a frigate would even notice being neuted by drones. A cruiser has around 1300 cap, -50 cap every 6 seconds is nothing. To make them useful, they would need to have their effect increased to that of a single t2 neut of their size. So 5x light neut drones would do -54 cap every 6 seconds, 5x mediums would do -90 every 6 seconds and so on. This is an absolute minimum. They would still be largely worthless compared to damage drones of equal size.
A warp disruptor drone would be great too. I hate chance based trash so perhaps make it so that there would only be heavy scrambler drones and they would have a warp jamming strength of 1/2 and the minimum strength to scramble a ship being 1. That way 2 heavy scrambler drones are required to scramble a ship with no warp core stabs.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.05.03 11:40:00 -
[413]
Quote: Do I understand the problem correctly?
Yep I would say so.
Quote: How would you like to see this fixed?
hmmm
Quote: Instead of the current mechanic where a successful ECM cycle breaks your lock for the given time of the ECM module. Your lock breaks, but you automatically start locking your target again. The duration would rely on your ability to target back your enemy, ECCM modules would essentially be sensor boosters. Could even add a fun twist to sensor dampening... The class values would of course have to be tweaked a bit...
No 20 second delay but simply broken lock? While the ecm drones still work off the same ecm-strength factor.
Battleship to battleship that can still mean 7 seconds or so of basically no dps being laid down. Still pretty good.
Arazu. 3 damps with res scripts. ecm drones. Almost certainly will remove the target from the field completely. Arazu itself cant kill anything then. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Robot Robot
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Posted - 2009.05.03 14:11:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Vassai Edited by: Vassai on 02/05/2009 11:38:00 Maybe its time to rebalance ECM itself not just drones?
Make ECM modules capable influancing sensor strength. For example, you have signal strength 10 and Multijummer can reduce it by 15% (20% for racial jammers). If the module applied at its optimal the strength will be reduced to 8.5 or lower (8.6 and higher) in case of faloff.
Stacking penalty will be also applied to ECM modules.
This wil influense the capability of ships to lock certain ships or ships with a certain signature. For example you have to have signal strength 10 at least to be able to lock ship with a signature 300m. 10 - 300 12 - 400 etc.
This will make smaller ships vulnerable to ECM and larger ships will be still able to lock smaller ships but may not lock larger.
In this case 2-3 ECCM modules fitted in a ship will make ECM useless because of stacking penalty.
In this case we will have 2 results: 1. Jam will become predictable. 2. ECCM module will be more needed against ECM than it is now.
Regarding to the drones - stacking penalty. 4 heavy drones = T1 multifrequency jammer and the 5th drone is useless because of stacking penalty.
this is a good idea, though backwards. things with small signature radius should still be harder to lock than things with large ones. also, it should scale with ship sizes. i love the idea of jam strength being a flat subtraction from sensor strength and there being a slow degradation of what kind of signatures you can lock on to (and breaking existing locks of course).
non-randomized ECM with a concept of being "partially jammed" is exactly what people have been asking for.
a single point of sensor strength should be enough to be able to lock any thing with the same signature radius as your own ship or larger. this means that, while frigates will be particularly vulnerable to being jammed (as they are already), they will also be the most effective while partially jammed. in fact, unless they're trying to get a shuttle, an inty or a pod, being partially jammed will have no effect on a frigate.
then (just throwing out numbers) maybe every five points of sensor strength allows you to target something that is half your signature radius. so a battleship with a sig radius of 320 that has been jammed down to 5 points of sensor strength can target a 165 signature battlecruiser, but not a 140 signature cruiser (unless it's MWDing....). if the battleship had only been jammed down to fifteen points, then it would still be able to target a 42 signature tristan, but not a 36 signature taranis.
of course, this might mean that some battleships and capitals might need to have their sensor strength increased slightly so that they can still target interceptors when unjammed (though a quick glance through EFT hasn't yet turned one up that has this problem). Also, the jam strength of various ECM modules and drones will certainly need to be tweaked, and possibly a stacking penalty introduced.
PROS: Non-Randomized ECM effects Partial Jamming mechanic means that being jammed doesn't necessarily remove you from the fight completely buff to small ships (particularly ECM frigates) Makes ECCM more measurably useful
CONS: might be too easy to put small ships sensor strengths to zero (could be fixed by just making it so that sensor strength can never be reduced past 1. this will however have the effect of rendering interceptors effectively immune to ECM. it will also mean that jamming a blackbird won't prevent it from continuing to jam a battleship. whether or not these are bad things is an exercise to the reader.) other cons? I can't see them, but i'm enamored with this idea right now.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.05.03 16:45:00 -
[415]
Edited by: Random Womble on 03/05/2009 16:52:49 Edit i just realised i misread the quoted post however other post still fails because it would lead to a 100% jam probability with drones eventually atleast as things stand.
Originally by: Clone 1
Originally by: CCP Nozh
How I view the ECM Drone problem:
....
Do I understand the problem correctly?
How would you like to see this fixed?
Multiple Chance Probability
The problem with ECM drones is they you have multiples of them each with their own chance of working or failing.
Given a Geddon, Radar Strength 17
EC-900 Jam strength 2
Probability of a single EC-900 jamming a geddon =2/17 = 0.1176
Now with 5 drones your chances go up for a single jam. All it takes is one successful EC-900 to jam. You add probilities when dealing with this.
Probability of 5 EC-900's jamming a geddon =2/17 + 2/17 + 2/17 + 2/17 + 2/17 = 0.588
Nearly 60% chance you get jammed with 5 EC-900's
That's what's wrong.5 EC-900 drones should not be as effective as a rack of 5 ECM-Multispecs. 5 EC-900s should be as effective as 1 multispec.
Drop EC-900 strength to 0.5 . That should bring probability back in line, that way 5 of them are actually a small bit better than 1 multispec. (0.3978 would make it = unbonused multispec)
You fail at maths In this case the easiest way to work out the probability is work out the probability that you wont be jammed which is (15/17)^5 which equals 0.53 to 2 decimal places so 53% of the time you wont be jammed therefore your only jammed 47% of the time.
The way the maths works is by taking the chances of you getting jammed by 1 drone each time ( (15/17*(2/17)^4)*5) + the chance of getting jammed by 2 drones each time ect ect
so in the end working out from reverse is easier.
By your maths btw 10 drones have over chance 100% to jam
If those drones were made to only have a strength of 0.5 your chance to jam a geddon each time would be 14% something which would never ever make them viable considering these are large drones were talking about and 14% chance to jam vs 300 DPS from 5 ogre IIs which is almost 1/3rd the dps from most battleships. Perhaps they should be reduced slightly to 1.6-1.8 at which point though its effectiveness is reduced dramatically against caldari ships (which is something that does not change give or take for drones) not to mention ECCM mods allready make them close to ineffective while unlike signal distortion amps theres no mod to boost ecm drone effectiveness.
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Enden Assulu
Caldari Blood Money Inc. Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.03 17:51:00 -
[416]
Don't nerf ECM drones, kthxbai.
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Asynced
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Posted - 2009.05.04 03:42:00 -
[417]
so instead of actually doing some *work* and buff the other drones to make them useful you want to the typical MMO developer easy way out and just nerf the **** out of the one EWAR drone that is actually useful.
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Vadimko
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Posted - 2009.05.04 04:44:00 -
[418]
Sorry i dont see the problem yet Do you have numbers - how often this drones are used in combat? I was in a lot of fights - war in c9n (Stain vs Goons), war in Delve etc so i know the big fleet fights. I like small gans too. And i can say - drones are used by my fleet/gangs or enemy gangs not very often. Actually, heavy ECM drones was used a couple of times.
Do you have numbers?
May be the problem is - guys who know eve theoretically are trying to make this game better?
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Sexrex Taerg
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Posted - 2009.05.04 21:48:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Robot Robot
this is a good idea, though backwards. things with small signature radius should still be harder to lock than things with large ones. also, it should scale with ship sizes. i love the idea of jam strength being a flat subtraction from sensor strength and there being a slow degradation of what kind of signatures you can lock on to (and breaking existing locks of course).
non-randomized ECM with a concept of being "partially jammed" is exactly what people have been asking for.
a single point of sensor strength should be enough to be able to lock any thing with the same signature radius as your own ship or larger. this means that, while frigates will be particularly vulnerable to being jammed (as they are already), they will also be the most effective while partially jammed. in fact, unless they're trying to get a shuttle, an inty or a pod, being partially jammed will have no effect on a frigate.
then (just throwing out numbers) maybe every five points of sensor strength allows you to target something that is half your signature radius. so a battleship with a sig radius of 320 that has been jammed down to 5 points of sensor strength can target a 165 signature battlecruiser, but not a 140 signature cruiser (unless it's MWDing....). if the battleship had only been jammed down to fifteen points, then it would still be able to target a 42 signature tristan, but not a 36 signature taranis.
of course, this might mean that some battleships and capitals might need to have their sensor strength increased slightly so that they can still target interceptors when unjammed (though a quick glance through EFT hasn't yet turned one up that has this problem). Also, the jam strength of various ECM modules and drones will certainly need to be tweaked, and possibly a stacking penalty introduced.
PROS: Non-Randomized ECM effects Partial Jamming mechanic means that being jammed doesn't necessarily remove you from the fight completely buff to small ships (particularly ECM frigates) Makes ECCM more measurably useful
CONS: might be too easy to put small ships sensor strengths to zero (could be fixed by just making it so that sensor strength can never be reduced past 1. this will however have the effect of rendering interceptors effectively immune to ECM. it will also mean that jamming a blackbird won't prevent it from continuing to jam a battleship. whether or not these are bad things is an exercise to the reader.) other cons? I can't see them, but i'm enamored with this idea right now.
It needs some tweaks due to the cons you note, but I really like the idea. Might have to watch out how powerful jamming frigs might relatively become, but it's a nifty start.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:57:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Megan Maynard If something has a higher jam strength then your ship, it should jam you. If it doesn't, it shouldn't. It needs to be simplified.
Make ECM drones proportional to their size and have modules stack for the jam.
So if one drone is on you, with jam strength of like 8 for example and you have a strength of 12, it would take another drone to jam you.
ECCM would be more simple, you don't have it you get jammed, you do you increase the amount of jammers needed to jam you.
Black and white, cut and dry. Make caldari ships have exceptional sensor strength as a built in racial "plus" to improve them in pvp.
problenm that non random ECM leads into a single situation always. You get your falcon near a target.. check wich target is then you know his sensor strength.. and they you are 100% sure if you gonna loose or win. If you uncloak and engage the target has ZERO chance of doing anything. If you cannot jam him, then you don 't uncloak
THAT is AWFUL gameplay. No ship in game should have I win button on ANY situation. Specially a cloaker one that can always select the fight.
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