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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Altair Mogwa
Amok.
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Posted - 2009.04.26 05:33:00 -
[31]
I was 100% mintar specced until i started going for a dread. Then i switched to cross training for a Rev. I know mintar like to 'mix it up' with the things like the Mael, cyclone, and command getting shield bonus, but IMO both caps should be armor.
Capitals are the glorious vessels of their race, stick to the races primary weapon focus and give the nag 3x turret points. Amarr took a change with some ships going full on missile boats, but you don't see the rev firing cits. -1 mid +1 low balance the armor hp to match out cap armor tankers.
IMO all dreads should be cookie cutter, they all get the same slot loadout/count, there's no reason the rev should have 7 lows and wtf pwn while the nag is a total fail. I don't understand how they made the other three so similar and then... made the nag.
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Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.04.26 06:57:00 -
[32]
The only thing wrong with the Nag is that it has one fewer slot than the other dreads. Which is a lot.
CCP, please fix my Nag.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Destructive Influence KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.26 08:04:00 -
[33]
theoretical dps. . .
but in truth, train for the rev or moros and be done with it. only RPers are so obscessed with being 'pure XYZ specced' as if this were wow or something. . .get over it. Minmatar have great ships in some classes and sucktastic ships in others - the strong and weak ships of each race are well known. So you can min/max and train for the correct ships of each class or you can be 'minmatar specced' act like that makes you an 'expert' and get blown up. . .either case, its your choise - and thats the beauty of eve.
oh, and please buff the nag. . . -----------
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Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.04.26 16:05:00 -
[34]
/signed ===============
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plastastic
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Posted - 2009.04.27 02:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ecky X The only thing wrong with the Nag is that it has one fewer slot than the other dreads. Which is a lot.
CCP, please fix my Nag.
it trades the lowslot for a extra highslot
anway
leave everything the same except combine the current bounus and and another one so
5% dammage to cit torps and autocannons per level 7.5% ROF to cit torps and autocannons per level (so cit torps gain 2.5% rof per lev+dammage boost may need to drop to flat 5%)
so it gets higher damage then the other dreds because of its 5th highslot rather then getting the same/less damage(with less tank) as other dreads becuse of its split wep systems
may need changing because this is going to be something like a 30% DPS increase but will make the nag worth it
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.04.27 20:32:00 -
[36]
As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.27 20:36:00 -
[37]
Originally by: CCP Abathur As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
Bonus to Target Painters \o/
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isdisco3
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: CCP Abathur As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
Thank you very much. It is good to know that the issue is being looked into. I look forward to seeing his thoughts and solution(s).
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:13:00 -
[39]
Fantastic. Also, while we're at it, why is it that even attaining equality with the other dreads requires 2x the SP investment? Shouldn't that level of investment actually yield better results?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: CCP Abathur As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
You gave the Eagle a 5th turret too; not convinced by that argument. But I am curious what Chronotis has to say.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
H A V O C
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Abathur As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
Finally.
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Gloria Lewis
Caldari lolpatrol B-D
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:24:00 -
[42]
Originally by: CCP Abathur As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
Solution: Are you ready for it? *Drumroll* Here it comes... Add MORE locators to the ship *rimshot*
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Abathur CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'.
It's too bad he never looked at citadels, hawks, rockets, cruise missiles, blaster tracking, TC/TD falloff modifiers, *cough* ECM *cough*, etc... ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:40:00 -
[44]
the rorqual guy having a look at the nagl.... /me believes chribba is smiling - putting the gist back into logistics |
Succubine
Caldari Succubine Dynasty Technologies
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Posted - 2009.04.27 21:45:00 -
[45]
Unbonused XL beams do more dps than XL Artillery with bonus on the Naglfail.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.27 22:03:00 -
[46]
the Veldfar looks pretty slick imo.
Win a Aeon mothership for 10M ISK |
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40 Cent
Evoke. Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.04.27 23:21:00 -
[47]
typhoon is a fun ship to fly but i would always prefer all the other tier one bs over the phoon
forget what the magic dps numbers in EFT tell you; fly the ship for years and you will understand that the typhoon is just a bit less capable than the other bs
some magic number (rage torps at 15km, hail, and ogre IIs for example) will never be as good as the direct damage from a geddon and so on
split highs are simply not that good. specialized ships are
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Ahz
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Posted - 2009.04.27 23:33:00 -
[48]
Originally by: CCP Abathur "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets...
I don't see how this should be the determining factor. This ship should really be able to support 4 auto cannons. I'd love to see the model change to support this change.
- 2 XL arti + 2 XL torp (same as today) - 4 XL auto cannons. High-damage, short range variant.
That would do it for me.
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Ahz
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Posted - 2009.04.27 23:35:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Ahz on 27/04/2009 23:36:02
Originally by: 40 Cent split highs are simply not that good. specialized ships are
I love the phoon but the high slot configuration should be 5/5 = 8.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.28 00:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ahz Edited by: Ahz on 27/04/2009 23:36:02
Originally by: 40 Cent split highs are simply not that good. specialized ships are
I love the phoon but the high slot configuration should be 5/5 = 8.
The phoon is awesome enough already. You don't need to make it even more so.
/me wishes he had Minmatar Battleships V. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
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isdisco3
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.04.28 01:33:00 -
[51]
Look, there are many problems with balancing, but the naglfar has been consistently mentioned as one of them for well over a year (closer to 2 now). Are there other things for them to look at? Sure. But at least they're looking at one. Flame the guys after they finish with this one.
On a side note, thank you again CCP for the post. This is exactly the kind of behind-the-scenes stuff that helps the playerbase feel like it is listened to. The post is note-worthy because, even though its only 3-4 lines long, it says:
1. the problem being addressed (the nagrofl) 2. the problems associated with its solution (a problem with the ship model) 3. a promise to get back to the players on the issue, quickly. (i'll have him post here)
If every developer-content post was this clear, concise, and informative I don't think we'd have nearly as many players asking (angrily, at times) for more interaction.
Thanks again.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 04:48:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Durzel on 28/04/2009 04:49:07
Originally by: Ahz
Originally by: CCP Abathur "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets...
I don't see how this should be the determining factor. This ship should really be able to support 4 auto cannons. I'd love to see the model change to support this change.
- 2 XL arti + 2 XL torp (same as today) - 4 XL auto cannons. High-damage, short range variant.
That would do it for me.
Role bonus: 100% bonus to turret damage or -50% reduction in turret RoF
Both give effective 4 turrets on a 2-turret model. It works well for Nightmare which is another model which can't support 8 visible turrets.
(Disclaimer: I know practically nothing about the Nagi or it's issues, just commenting on the "can't add more turrets" as being a problem that can be solved with creative thinking)
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Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.04.28 05:22:00 -
[53]
Originally by: plastastic it trades the lowslot for a extra highslot
anway
leave everything the same except combine the current bounus and and another one so
5% dammage to cit torps and autocannons per level 7.5% ROF to cit torps and autocannons per level (so cit torps gain 2.5% rof per lev+dammage boost may need to drop to flat 5%)
so it gets higher damage then the other dreds because of its 5th highslot rather then getting the same/less damage(with less tank) as other dreads becuse of its split wep systems
may need changing because this is going to be something like a 30% DPS increase but will make the nag worth it
Maybe not.
The Nag has more damage type choice than the other dreads, and uses no cap with its guns. The lack of cap to fire the guns might be considered equivalent to a resistance bonus, as it frees up some slots that would otherwise be dedicated to cap recharge, and the split weapon system may be justified by the ability to (mostly) choose your damage type.
Originally by: Succubine Unbonused XL beams do more dps than XL Artillery with bonus on the Naglfail.
Thus 3 bonused guns on the Rev do as much DPS, before damage mods, as 4 guns would on the Naglmao. The Nag's 5 highs are worth the same as 4 on a Rev, making it a ship with more interesting though maybe not inferior bonuses, and one fewer slot, than the other dreads.
I feel the addition of either a mid or a lowslot would bring it inline. And maybe some extra dronebay, I like drones.
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ollobrains
Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace
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Posted - 2009.04.28 05:22:00 -
[54]
give it a 100% jump drive range
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.04.28 06:10:00 -
[55]
Oh snap the Nags getting a boost?!
*runs off to purchase Minmatar Dreadnaught and a Nag before the price skyrockets*
Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
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Xelios
Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 07:38:00 -
[56]
Well if a third turret slot is out of the question then I would suggest
* Give it a double bonus on both weapon types (ROF + Damage) -- Without this the 4th weapon slot is worthless due to damage mods only being 50% effective on the Naglfail, not to mention it has 1 less low slot than other dreads when it's the only one that needs more to function properly. If you can't give it the ability to fit 2 or 3 damage mods and a standard tank then it needs these bonuses. With dread V you get more dps by fitting laser turrets to a Nag, if that's not a sign that the bonuses are broken...
* Decide if you want it to be a viable shield tanker (if so it needs more cpu) -- Right now it's impossible to fit a shield tank without a faction co-pro and COSMOS/named/faction t1 fittings. Can't even fit t2 hardeners or a t2 damage control.
* If not shield tanking then remove a mid and add 1 or 2 lows -- Since a damage mod only affects half the Naglfail's weapons it needs to fit more of them to get the same benefit as a damage mod on another race's dread. Right now it needs all its low slots to fit a decent tank. If shield tanking isn't going to be an option then it desperately needs at least 1 more low slot, and realistically 2 so it can fit a tank and one damage mod for each weapon type.
The 100% weapon bonus with 3 high slots is another good idea. Even then I'd still look into giving it some more cpu so it can actually fit a shield tank (which I assume was the point in giving it a 5th mid slot).
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.28 09:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Fantastic. Also, while we're at it, why is it that even attaining equality with the other dreads requires 2x the SP investment? Shouldn't that level of investment actually yield better results?
-Liang
The easiest way to do this would be to remove the launcher hardpoints and 2 high slots, then give the 2 existing projectile guns a huge RoF bonus, so it's dps and ammo usage is more or less equivalent to other dreads. No isssue with the graphic model, no more double SP investment, and everyone is happy.
However, because projectile guns don't use cap, and allow you to choose to some extent your damage type, them doing less dps than laser or hybrid guns is logical. The "projectile on Naglfar should do as much damage than laser on Revelation" argument posted above, is crap. ------------------------------------------
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Zero Temperature
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Posted - 2009.04.28 10:09:00 -
[58]
This is more of a thinking outside of the box kind of suggestion. One way to partially "fix" Naglfar and Phoenix is to let citadel torpedo launcher fit bombs.
Of course here bombs loaded in a citadel torpedo launcher must be different from those in a bomb launcher. They should become like ordinary missiles that are guided and explode on impact with longer flight time, while the rof of citadel torpedo launcher with bombs might need to be lowered and damage modifier adjusted.
This certainly does not increase the ganking ability for both dreads, but it adds some varieties and opens up many tactical options in capital fights. For example, the 4 damage bombs can be used to bombard enemy support fleets or to clear up bubbles. Also the ewar bombs should be allowed to affect dreads in siege and supercaps(I am not sure if they already do) while CCP could invent more ewar bombs such as tracking disruption bombs or target painting bombs, which is AOE with duration. Let Revelation and Moros do their dps, Phoenix and Naglfar don't have to be the same.
Disclaimer: above suggestion still does not help Naglfar's tanking problem.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.04.28 10:26:00 -
[59]
Fix for Nagl: -Barrage XL -XL Shield Extenders -Capital MWD -Allow Naglfar to move while in siege and remove tracking penalty
Zoomzoom, all hail the Naglbond!
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners
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Posted - 2009.04.28 10:29:00 -
[60]
Below is a copy an paste of my opinions and ideas from december
Right now in terms of its class it is completely borked for a start its a minmatar ship but you actually do more dps with lasers fitted than capital projectile guns when fitting a ranged setup even with minmatar dread Lv5 and more damage with blasters than autos with dread Lv4, now while some might think this is not really worthy of note and will point out the benifits of projectiles and downsides of lasers/blasters it is pretty much typical of the state of the ship and is extreemly flawed design.
So some basic stuff about the ship Highs: 5 Mids: 5 Lows: 6 Cpu: 700 (base) PG: 625000 (base) Launcher slots: 2 Turret slots: 2 Bonuses: 7.5% to capital projectile RoF 5% to citadel torp RoF Drone bay: 225m3
For a start the split weapons system is a complete failure it leaves the naglfar unable to really use any damage mods to a decent effect having to fit 2 just to get the same increase in damage any other dread would with one module (damage mods are a 90% certainty on most dread setups). On top of that the split weapons system is the reason why beam lasers are more effective than artillery and even autocannons suffer when shooting a POS as you need to take into account the fact that the autocannons will be firing in faloff no matter what ammo used even when right on the edge of shields (not the case with pulse lasers). This is due to only a single bonus to projectile turrets which really require 2 to be effective. So ideally the naglfar should be changed to a pure projectile boat with 4 highslots and 3 turret hardpoints with 2 projectile bonuses (one dmage one RoF) alternatively the 5 highslots could be kept but again switching it to 2 turret bonuses with 3 turret hardpoints and 1 launcher.
If no changes are going to happen to the highslots of the naglfar then at the very least it needs an increase in CPU as it is the naglfar uses 80 more CPU than the moros in its high slots (long range guns vs long range and short vs short fittings 80 CPU both times) while it does have one less low slot than the moros (something i will come to later) the ammount of CPU that one low slot would use maximum would be 40 CPU (and thats generous). Therefore in theory the naglfar should have atleast 40 more CPU than the Moros with skills and probably base however as it is the naglfar has _50_ CPU less base which is just plain wrong and completely out of whack that ammount of CPU more correctly fits the profile of a 3 turret projectile only ship not a ship using 2 launchers (150 Cpu each) and 2 guns (55 or 70 CPU each).
Next as i mentioned earlier the naglfar has 1 less mid slot than the moros infact it has 11 mid/lows total while every other dread has 12 while this was obviously done because the naglfar had an extra highslot it completely missed the point of why that highslot was there. The reason the naglfar had an extra highslot was to compensate (which it does not actually do very well anyway) for the split weapons system and seperated bonuses so that the naglfar would be effectively (but not in actual reality) able to do about the same as the other dreads could do with their 3 gun (moros/rev) or 3 launcher (phoenix) slots so should have been completely ignored when the naglfar was designed and therefore the naglfar should be given its missing slot and since the minmatar capitals were intially designed to be shield tankers it is my belief the naglfar should be given 1 extra midslot.
Finally a tiny in my veiw incorrect trait is the drone bay generally minmatar ships have the second largest drone bay the most obvious example of this is that the minmatar carrier and mothership both have second largest bays after the gallente ones therefore it is my belief the naglfar should have a large dronebay than the revelation (250m3) somewhere in the region of 280 m3. However that is a much minor issue and many will see it as a change which is not really needed while atleast some of the others ar
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