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HongHi Choi
Biometaloid
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Posted - 2009.04.24 00:56:00 -
[1]
So I been reading posts a little bit to learn about PvP as much as I can, and while doing so remembered that there are actualy energy neutralisers in the game. I opened EFT, and my calculations were as follows:
I calculated as there were two ships fighting each other, one using 3 medium diminishing NOS, and the other 3 meduim unstable neutraliser.
The first stats are that the neut. uses 4 less CPU, and costs about 4 mil. isk more than the NOS. Ranges are the same, and now for the power...
NOS ship: energy gained from NOS = 36 cap /6 sec= 6 cap/sec x3 = +18 cap/sec energy neutralised = -180 cap /12 sec= -15 cap/sec x3 = -45 cap/sec 18-45 = -27 cap every second
Neut ship: neut activasion (at lvl5 skill) = -112.5 cap/ 12 sec = -9.375 cap/sec x3 = -28.125 c/s energy drained by NOS = -18 cap/sec (as above) -28-18 = -46 cap every second
The question is obvious: what am I doing wrong. I have noticed almost the absence of neautralisers in favour of NOS (PvP setups), so can someone fill me in on this? Also I would like to know when to chose neutralisers (if ever) and if there is something I don't know or should know about NOS and neutralisers that I sould.
The second question is related to Damage controls. Some players have argued that they are useless in PvP. I find this to be a logical assuption, since they only give a notable resistance to hull, and when you are down to hull, I imagine that you ain't runnin' nowhere. Anyone had a good experience using these in PvP? Any thoughts?
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.04.24 00:59:00 -
[2]
I'm a little stuck here....
Can't tell if you're trolling or if you honestly don't know.
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Leon Caedo
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Posted - 2009.04.24 01:03:00 -
[3]
you cant NOS someone below your current % of cap. so if you are sitting at 100% cap, your NOS won't drain a single point of energy. (unless your enemy is somehow hacking and at 101% cap)
neuts always do what they say they do.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.04.24 01:08:00 -
[4]
Sigh... I guess I'll bite
A. If you see exclusively nos useage, you're not looking very hard. Neuts are massively more used. The reason being of course that NOS only work if your % of cap is lower than your enemy's % of cap. Nos are now usually only fitted on ships which anticipate being neuted, so as to keep a bit of cap... or on ships that have a spare slot and nothing particular to put in it. NOS is a lot less used than it used to be because it's not completely reliable anymore.
Use neutralizers to shut off enemy modules. Use nos to sustain your own, but you have to now practice cap management, because you have to keep your cap level lower than your enemies... and you have no direct way of knowing your enemies cap level.
B. DC2 is heavily used in PVP. One of the prime reasons being that it is not stacking nerfed the way other mods are.... that small amount of resistance you are writing off is actually equal to or better than what you would have gotten with 3rd iteration of another module. A uniform resistance tank is most likely going to contain a DC2. The additional hull resistance is all awesome extra sauce.
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HongHi Choi
Biometaloid
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Posted - 2009.04.24 13:59:00 -
[5]
Well thank you both. This sheds different light on the subject. My intention was not trolling. :)
I am planing to fly an Ishtar, and it seems I've been reading some old setups in the ship index. Most of those were using three NOS on this ship, but now i guess that the post were before the NOS nerf.
Anyways, now that I know how this works, can you suggest what kind of NOS, EN do I use on the Ishtar or at least where to get up to date setups for it.
Tnx again
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2009.04.24 15:55:00 -
[6]
As an aside:
If you are looking at lots of set-ups that use heavy nos, you are probably looking at old set-ups.
The change that makes NOS only steal cap if you have less is (relatively) recent and if you are looking through one of the sites with a random database of set-ups then I'm sure some of them are still cluttering the db up.
As things now stand, a heavy neut is pretty much an automatic if you have a utility high on a bs. If you have two utilities, I like a nos and a neut myself, but a lot of people go for two neuts.
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honey bunchetta
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:02:00 -
[7]
Edited by: honey bunchetta on 24/04/2009 17:04:20
Originally by: HongHi Choi
Anyways, now that I know how this works, can you suggest what kind of NOS, EN do I use on the Ishtar or at least where to get up to date setups for it.
A solo pvp ISHTAR fit + instructions on how to use it.
HIGHS 2 x 200mm auto cannon T2. 1 x 150mm auto cannon T2. 1 x med diminishing NOS. 1 X small diminishing NOS.
MIDS 1 x Y-T8 mwd. 1 x faint SCRAM (THE 9KM MWD KILLER TYPE). 2 x fleeting web. 1 x med named cap injector (800's).
LOWS 2 x med armour reppers T2. 1 x eanm T2. 1 x DCU T2. 1 x armour ex hardener T2.
RIGS 2 x auxiluary nano pumps T1.
DRONES T2 ogres. T2 hammerheads. T2 hobgoblins. I always include a few ec-600 as well.
1. Find turret ship..
2. Burn into 0km dual webbing and scraming them.
3. Sit and stay (as much as possible) at 0m making their turret DMG either very low and sporadic or even 0 (as ALL turrets miss at 0meters due to funky game mechanics).
4. Easily tank their drone and sporadic turret dmg (or kill the drones with your AC if you prefer).
5. Also a BIG benifit of this setup is that because you have killed the MWD with your scram and have your target dual webbed you will probably NOT need your own mwd much if at all after the initial tackle and your 2 NOS can perma feed ALL your tackle AND a single repper (making you less reliant on needing to reload cap booster charges if you are roaming).
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY. To constantly drain your targets CAP with your NOS you may need to run your second repper or mwd now and again so your cap % is lower than your targets, GOOD CAP MANAGMENT AND PILOTING IS WHAT MAKES THIS FIT EFFECTIVE.
6. Watch as your drones chew them up.
551 dps with a nice resistance and rep tank, this solo pvp fit is all about mitigating turret dmg by using piloting and in game mechanics/target knowledge more than just the normal mindless "hit f5 and hope he runs out of armour first" tank/gank fits/style.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:28:00 -
[8]
NOS only fits use NOS to lower your opponents cap and give them some troubles running everything but primarily to transfer their cap to your tank.
The idea is you can tank using their cap and outlast them.
Killing your opponents cap OTOH requires neuts.
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Seriously Bored
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: honey bunchetta Edited by: honey bunchetta on 24/04/2009 17:04:20
Plastered Ishtar Fit
Honey...you are just on a mission to get everyone on earth using this setup, aren't you? I've seen this put in about four different threads now.
Let me guess, you have another setup that's made to perfectly kill this Ishtar setup, and you're going to go around finding the pilots who listened to you and gank them?
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honey bunchetta
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: honey bunchetta
Plastered Ishtar Fit
Let me guess, you have another setup that's made to perfectly kill this Ishtar setup, and you're going to go around finding the pilots who listened to you and gank them?
Actually no im not cos this fit is very effective (although im gonna file that idea away for later use on another fit maybe), the reason why it got posted a few times is cos ppl asked for it or summat like it in several separate threads.
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Benedikt Miloslav
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: honey bunchetta Edited by: honey bunchetta on 24/04/2009 17:04:20
Plastered Ishtar Fit
Honey...you are just on a mission to get everyone on earth using this setup, aren't you? I've seen this put in about four different threads now.
Let me guess, you have another setup that's made to perfectly kill this Ishtar setup, and you're going to go around finding the pilots who listened to you and gank them?
Although that fit is bad, mainly due to the use of ACs (what's the point?), lack of a nanobot accelerator rig (pretty much needed due to the ishtar's low armor) and use of scram (being forced into web range is pretty bad, sometimes you really gotta stay 18km+ away), it pretty much follows the concept of the standard dual MAR Ishtar.
And the thing with 0m or whatever doesn't really work against anything that isn't completely stationary, otherwise it would be abused to death.
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honey bunchetta
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Posted - 2009.04.24 18:33:00 -
[12]
Edited by: honey bunchetta on 24/04/2009 18:35:46
Originally by: Benedikt Miloslav
Although that fit is bad
It works great but like ALL solo fits it is not perfect against EVERY single possable ship and fit in eve.
Originally by: Benedikt Miloslav mainly due to the use of ACs (what's the point?)
There are slots free and they are capless and they fit that is the point.
Try slapping even small T2 electron blasters on it and gonna need a CPU implant, along with blasters needing cap to fire for only a little more dmg than the AC.
Originally by: Benedikt Miloslav lack of a nanobot accelerator rig (pretty much needed due to the ishtar's low armor)
If you wish to you can swap out a nano pump for a nano accelerator, i prefer the pumps as the accelerator speeds up rep cycles thus uses more cap per second, when i can stagger the dual nano pumped reps easily enough.
Be honest 9 secs cycle time vs 7.65 secs cycle time (with 1 accelerator) when you can stagger reps is not that important imho.
Originally by: Benedikt Miloslav and use of scram (being forced into web range is pretty bad, sometimes you really gotta stay 18km+ away)
That is a pointless statment as no SOLO fit is effective against every possible ship and fit in eve.
Originally by: Benedikt Miloslav And the thing with 0m or whatever doesn't really work against anything that isn't completely stationary, otherwise it would be abused to death.
It works fine if this fit and ship is used against turret BS and most if not all turret BC as their agility and dual webbed non mwd speed is so poor compared to yours.
It takes good timing and a reasonable knowledge of the ship and weapon systems you are facing (a rough idea of their ROF helps a lot now ppl use weapon grouping) and like i said piloting, even if you are not at 0m for EVERY volley or a few shots the BS tracking at WAY under 1km is a total joke.
And anything smaller or faster like cruisers and frigs you can tank easily while watching your drones melt them.
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Sarius Deteis
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Posted - 2009.04.26 04:09:00 -
[13]
You need to get in an APOC and fit it with 7 Large 500mw Infectious'. It will make little cruisers cry and any BS think twice before ever engaging.
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.26 07:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: honey bunchetta Ishtar Fit
That's a pretty decent fit. If I had any desire to fly an Ishtar, this would be the one. sXe |
HongHi Choi
Biometaloid
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Posted - 2009.04.27 01:32:00 -
[15]
Seems related to this topic...
A lot have mentioned "so you got to keep your cap below theirs" (to keep the NOS going).
My question is simple - why would anyone want to do this? I mean, is there any tactical advantage to actualy having lower cap then the person you are fighting? Don't get this people. Help me out.
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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.27 03:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: HongHi Choi Seems related to this topic...
A lot have mentioned "so you got to keep your cap below theirs" (to keep the NOS going).
My question is simple - why would anyone want to do this? I mean, is there any tactical advantage to actualy having lower cap then the person you are fighting? Don't get this people. Help me out.
Is there any tactical advantage to maintaing more cap?
If you run setup that works just fine but hovers at a very low capacitor level with the nos you are removing there cap and giving it to you. if you run a slightly diffent setup that maintains a very full capacitor the nos will do nothing and wont lower there cap. Now how is this an advantage? well when they run that cap 800 through you take that cap away from them so hopefully they cap out until there next 800 cycles through and then you take that cap. (so you boost your cap well removing theres). Again this does not work if you run a high amount of cap in your capacitor. so running on next to nothing in your capacitor is a good thing.
Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.04.27 04:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: 4 LOM Is there any tactical advantage to maintaing more cap?
If you run setup that works just fine but hovers at a very low capacitor level with the nos you are removing there cap and giving it to you. if you run a slightly diffent setup that maintains a very full capacitor the nos will do nothing and wont lower there cap. Now how is this an advantage? well when they run that cap 800 through you take that cap away from them so hopefully they cap out until there next 800 cycles through and then you take that cap. (so you boost your cap well removing theres). Again this does not work if you run a high amount of cap in your capacitor. so running on next to nothing in your capacitor is a good thing.
It's a nice buffer against neuts. Yeah, you can use your cap booster, but if you're at 0 cap and you get neuted your modules will turn off periodically if they don't ALL cycle just after the cap booster does. best to try to keep your cap at around 30% ish to maximize the amount of cap you get back from natural recharge, I think. __________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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HongHi Choi
Biometaloid
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Posted - 2009.04.27 18:23:00 -
[18]
Ok that clears it up. Tnx :)
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HongHi Choi
Biometaloid
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:59:00 -
[19]
I intend to de-noob ASAP so here's what's bothering me next:
Originally by: honey bunchetta
1 x faint SCRAM (THE 9KM MWD KILLER TYPE).
How is a warp scrambler a MWD killer or what do you mean by that.
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kor anon
Amarr Seerauber-Vereinigung
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Posted - 2009.04.28 17:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: HongHi Choi I intend to de-noob ASAP so here's what's bothering me next:
Originally by: honey bunchetta
1 x faint SCRAM (THE 9KM MWD KILLER TYPE).
How is a warp scrambler a MWD killer or what do you mean by that.
close range scrams turn off MWD
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Imogen Filiotov
Amarr Gene Works Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2009.04.28 20:56:00 -
[21]
There is a Warp Disruptor (dark blue icon) and a Warp Scramble (lighter blue icon). The disruptor has a smaller range than the scramble but it stop mwd engaging too, where as the scramble has a higher range - generally 16km+ but doesn't stop ppl using a mwd.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.04.28 23:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Imogen Filiotov There is a Warp Disruptor (dark blue icon) and a Warp Scramble (lighter blue icon). The disruptor has a smaller range than the scramble but it stop mwd engaging too, where as the scramble has a higher range - generally 16km+ but doesn't stop ppl using a mwd.
Except that it's the other way round and your ranges are a bit off. Warp Disruptors have 20/24km range (tech 1/2), and put a single point of warp disruption on the target. They also use a little extra CPU to fit and a lot more cap to run. Warp Scramblers have 7.5-9km range (tech 1/2), put two points of warp disruption on the target (i.e. they will overcome a single WCS), kill MWDs, and use less cap to run.
The scram is better in all attributes except for range - but that's a critical distinction, both because it forces you to stay at close range while fighting (within web range too, making escape/range dictation harder) thus negating any range advantage you may have beyond 10km, and also because it means you need to be much closer to an unwilling target to get the point on them and stop them warping away. Consequently, the disruptor is still (IMO) the more commonly used warp-inhibiting device in general, with scramblers being used on setups that make the most of its strengths while minimising its weaknesses.
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Tiddz
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Posted - 2009.04.29 10:40:00 -
[23]
Short version:
NOS : Defence NEUT: Offence
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