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Britannicus Varrus
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Posted - 2009.04.27 00:45:00 -
[1]
By allowing high level players to War-deck low-level corps you are allowing grievers to prosper in this game. There should be an option where the defending corps has the right to decline the War-deck and thus disallowing the grievers to prosper. High level gamers are destroying the game for new players. This is a big reason why Eve is in the thousands of players and WOW and Warhammer are in the millions in player number. If you want to game to grow and draw new players, you must do something about the grievers who are War-decking low level corps and new players. |
Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.04.27 01:01:00 -
[2]
"Level" ?
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DrJ Zoidberg
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.04.27 01:01:00 -
[3]
Non-consensual PVP is what makes EVE EVE. You remove that, and you take away the heart and soul of the game. It's a tough universe, always has been, always will be.
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari Noir.
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Posted - 2009.04.27 01:16:00 -
[4]
Join EVE Uni, and learn how to defend yourselves. Newbie corps CAN beat the higher level players if they know what they're doing. Hint: get lots of Blackbird pilots.
Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal |
Gneeznow
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.27 02:16:00 -
[5]
its spelled ''griefing''
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Deathvoucher
EnTech
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Posted - 2009.04.27 03:52:00 -
[6]
eve is the way it is so that it isnt compared to warhammer or WoW, because WoW SUCKS BALLS. Eve needs to stay the way it is, besides some ship nerfs, btu the war dec system is perfect, and if the newbs get so mad about wardecs, why not join a powerful alliance, or just sit in a newb corp so they cant be wardecced
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1072
Fliegerkorps
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Posted - 2009.04.27 09:19:00 -
[7]
eve, is not fair.
-boombastica !- |
Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.04.27 09:44:00 -
[8]
eve is not wow, they are about as different as you can get while being in the same genre.
in wow etc. they prevent older players from ganking noobs by seperating them into different areas straight out preventing it.
In eve it's a open sandbox so seperating players like that wouldn't work, without breaking the game. Instead eve creates fairness by allowing low level/sp/skill players to compete with higher level players, ask goons about that.
However you are onto something about these wardecs. atm they are being used too much as tools to grief, too little as tools to make money let alone settle actual disputes. It's been discussed quite a bit, but I really don't think putting a magic impenetrable game mechanic wall between them is the right thing to do.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Lewyrus
Jugis Modo Utopia Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.04.27 11:04:00 -
[9]
No. EVE is a PvP game. Being at war is a great opportunity to learn about aggro mechanics, travelling at war, local, overview settings, docking games, directional scanner, combat scanning, bookmarking safe spots or exit spots, avoiding gatecamps, setting up gatecamps, gathering intel about player corps, merc corps, or corps you live near with.
If you don't like to be wardec'd, join EVE Uni, or an NPC corp, or play market PvP, sitting in a station.
What's this topic has to do anything with game development? Assemlby hall, features and ideas, general whine forums...
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steave435
Caldari SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.04.27 13:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku Join EVE Uni, and learn how to defend yourselves. Newbie corps CAN beat the higher level players if they know what they're doing. Hint: get lots of Blackbird pilots.
This whine could have been copy+pasted from their forums.
This is what eve is supposed to be, intended to be, and is. Deal with it.
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4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.04.27 13:31:00 -
[11]
1/10. Here's a hint; if you want to make your troll thread a bit more subtle, don't mention WoW.
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Hex5
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.27 13:46:00 -
[12]
Warhammer Online has fewer subscriptions than EVE Online. EVE is a complex sandbox universe and not fast food Hello Kitty fluffy puffy carebear stuff like WoW or WAR. In EVE you actually can lose something in PvP, it's not instant action deathmatch in small instanced arenas.
First try to understand what EVE actually is then you might start suggesting changes and won't get flamed by everyone because the lack of your understanding. __________________________________
Economy is war! |
Kal Cojoh
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Posted - 2009.04.27 14:09:00 -
[13]
I agree with this. Noob griefing is not in the "spirit" of EVE. If you are a new player, and you want to start your own corp with a dozen friends, you will be continually picked on by noob griefers that are IMPOSSIBLE for you to beat for a couple of months. This makes for a broken game. The rules need to be fixed.
The solution is not to allow people to turn down war dec's. That defeats the whole point of them.
You could up the costs of war decs (which I think needs to be done anyway, completely seperately to the noob griefing problem), but that doesn't solve the noob griefing. Might cut it down a little though.
Could make a corp immune to war decs if their founder is under 2 months of age or something, but that will be abused I think.
I personally like LaVista Vistas idea of having a merc listing that merc and anti-noob griefing corps can join. The griefed corp can then hire these corps from this listing. Hired merc corps would then be at war with the griefing corp.
CCP could play around with the specifics of such an idea. It is a good outline to prevent noob-griefing. It scares away players, and it not profitable or a challenge for the noob-griefers. They are doing it to suckle on sweet sweet noob tears. Using the in game rules to try and make the real world people upset is against the spirit of the game.
It is equivilant to someone at a Magic the Gathering tournament trying to make a young new player cry during the game. Wizards of the coast does not tolerate this kind of behavior in its games, and neither should CCP.
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General Meridus
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.04.27 18:04:00 -
[14]
Who wants millions of players? bleh
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Feilamya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.27 19:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Britannicus Varrus By allowing high level players to War-deck low-level corps you are allowing grievers to prosper in this game. There should be an option where the defending corps has the right to decline the War-deck and thus disallowing the grievers to prosper.
Protip to avoid wardecs: Don't live in high sec.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.04.27 20:34:00 -
[16]
----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
Traidor Disloyal
Minmatar Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.04.27 20:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kal Cojoh I agree with this. Noob griefing is not in the "spirit" of EVE.
It is within the "spirit" of Eve.
Originally by: Kal Cojoh I personally like LaVista Vistas idea of having a merc listing that merc and anti-noob griefing corps can join. The griefed corp can then hire these corps from this listing. Hired merc corps would then be at war with the griefing corp.
I should look at this. If what you describe is what that person is proposing then that is already in the game. There are Merc corps advertising all the time for work. Unless you are talking about the Mercs not paying for the war dec?
In my experience with Eve, people get war decced in Eve due to one of the following: 1. They smack in local. In my experience this is the one that causes the most war decs and new people need to find out that there are consequences to ones actions in the game called Eve. 2. They flaunt their wealth by using faction fit ships to do missions. Just like anything else, you start showing your bling and someone is bound to want it. 3. They are part of big industrial/mission running corporation who do not know how to PvP.
Blowing the crap out of someone who only uses T1 ships fit with T1 gear is really no fun. You don't make any isk from the loot drops and it's boring.
************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.27 20:59:00 -
[18]
Go back to WOW if it's got such a great new player experience.
1. Griever would refer to someone who is sad. Griefer is the word you are looking for. 2. PvP is already consensual. You agree to PvP when you undock. 3. High level skill gamers are destroying the game for stupid new players. 4. Eve is in the hundreds of thousands of subscriptions. 5. The entire POINT of EVE is un-consensual PvP. That is the reason that 90% of the people who play the game do so. If you dislike PvP, that is not a problem with the game, that is a problem with you. The continually rising subscription numbers prove this.
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EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Kal Cojoh
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Posted - 2009.04.28 05:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
There are Merc corps advertising all the time for work.
There should be a listing for them so that noobs can find them.
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
In my experience with Eve, people get war decced in Eve due to one of the following:
Try a little experiment. Make a new character, immediately start a corp and higher 15 noobs on trial accounts. Within a week, you will have a war dec from noob griefers (Ginger Magician flavoured people). There are plenty of corps like Die Dunkle Brudascharf, One-Eyed Teddies and Interimo who like to war dec noob corps because they want easy kills. They dont want money, they dont want a challenge, they just want to suckle on noob tears.
Originally by: Karentaki
2. PvP is already consensual. You agree to PvP when you undock.
I agree with that completely. But the game mechanics should not be geared in such a way that encourages/allows players to try and get at the player outside of the game. These kind of war decs are designed to **** off the player. That is where the noob griefers are getting their jollies. It is the equivilant to someone making someone cry at a Street Fighter or Magic the Gathering tournament or whatever.
I agree that you should be able to attack anybody anywhere. It is what the war dec mechanic tries to achieve. Where the war dec machanic fails, is for the new players that want to start a nooby corp for them and their friends. Yes, they could stay in the starter noob corps, or join a big corp, or whatever, but the noob doesn't know that at the beginning. He doesn't know that when he makes that corp, he is going to get war dec'ed. And it is going to be a battle he cannot win.
If a noob is 2 months old, he will have enough knowledge and character skills to be able to fight back with enough research and tactics. But the new new player? He will get picked on by bullies he cannot fight back against. And these people are going to try and upset him as much as possible.
There is no doubt in my mind that the war dec mechanic needs an overhaul. It accomplishes its main goal (to ensure that you can force someone into PvP), but it is also abused by people who want to bully people in real life. Its lame, but ALOT of people do it. The anominity of the internet plus the fact they know they can't lose due to character skill points, ships and game knowledge, allows them to bully new players. This was never the intention of the war dec mechanic.
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ollobrains
Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace
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Posted - 2009.04.28 05:30:00 -
[20]
use game mechanics to avoid create alt corps change as needed. go back to npc corp go into random wormhole and dont come out they cant track u in there
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Terra Mikael
SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:30:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Terra Mikael on 28/04/2009 11:34:41
Sure, make a rule that allows a loophole for people under 20mil skillpoints to be un-decable.
sounds great. I'll get my "grieving" noob alt ready. All talk all the **** I want and never train past a certain point so it will always be fair. It will be a blast. Also, it should be that no one can target noobs for extra lulz.
edit:by lulz I mean fairness.
I'm terra mikael and i approve this message.
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Originally by: Lone Gunman Yes overpowered would be giving a ship with the Covert ops cloak the ability to fire say..Torpedos, now that would be overpowered. But CCP would |
Kal Cojoh
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:39:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Sure, make a rule that allows a loophole for people under 20mil skillpoints to be un-decable.
sounds great. I'll get my "grieving" noob alt ready. All talk all the **** I want and never train past a certain point so it will always be fair.
That is what we call a straw man argument (wiki it for more info if you need it). I am not saying that you should make targetting noobs illegal or create loopholes for noobs. The war dec mechanic should be changed so that people don't use it to bully people in real life (which is primarily how it is used). If you have read the CSM 1 meeting minutes, you will see they discussed changing the war dec mechanics so that they are objective based. This allows noobs to get out of the war, should they complete certain objectives. That is the kind of change I would like. Something to move war dec'ing away from bullying noobs.
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it's called C&P. but if you can afford mercs, you're probably not a noob.
Yeah, noobs can't afford mercs, and they don't know where to find them anyway.
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And this proves, what? That eve is a cold universe? That there are risks? Well, nice to know!
This shows how the war mechanic is used. Not for its intended function, but to bully noobs. I agree that EVE must always be a dark and dangerous place, but pitting a rookie ship against a Nightmare in someones first week in EVE and forcing them to stay in a station for 24-48 hours while he dismantles his corp to get back into the rookie corp (once he figures out this solution) is more than a bit harsh.
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Are you fu<king re+arded?
This is called an ad hominin attack (wiki it for more info if you need it). It shows that you are not interested in getting to the truth of the matter, you would rather win by flinging insults and beating your chest, rather than discussing the points of the discussion. Also, I am sure sidestepping the forums censorship breaks forum rules.
If you want to have a decent discussion on this matter based on the points, I am willing to have them. But mud slinging just shows your intellectual dishonesty and your lack of wanting to actually tackle the discussion at hand.
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If it makes you cry, you shouldn't play because you obviously don't have the mental or emotional capacity to handle it.
I was using crying as an extreme example. Dilibrately trying to haggle the player for fun, and not just keeping it in game, is against the rules of all tournament games. And the mechanics of the war dec'ing system encourage it.
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And I really hope you're not speaking from experience about people making you cry at Magic tournaments.
I use this example because I am a DCI certified level 2 magic judge. I am familiar with their rules and regulations regarding the handling of events. Such behavior, the intentional act of trying to enforce a negative emotional response out of the player, is not tolerated by Wizards of the Coast, and should not be encouraged by CCP.
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Whats so hard about docking up for a week?
When its your first week of play? That person is not subscribing. Neither should they, because a game that forces you to stare at the inside of a station, is a badly designed game. Don't get me wrong, EVE does other aspects amazingly, but this needs correction.
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Wtf are you talking about? EVE isn't for everyone - get that through your head.
Never said it was. But new players shouldn't be forced out, which is what is happening here.
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And what's this "anominity of the internet" you speak of?
I was explaining the reason people use it to bully. Its why people are braver on forums for example and call people "fu<king re+arded".
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And you think people will always win if they have high skillpoints?
Straw man. One thing that makes EVE great is you can defeat someone with higher skillpoints. But there is a limit. 20 50K SP characters can't beat a noob griefing corp.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 28/04/2009 16:48:13
Originally by: Britannicus Varrus By allowing high level players to War-deck low-level corps you are allowing grievers to prosper in this game. There should be an option where the defending corps has the right to decline the War-deck and thus disallowing the grievers to prosper. High level gamers are destroying the game for new players. This is a big reason why Eve is in the thousands of players and WOW and Warhammer are in the millions in player number. If you want to game to grow and draw new players, you must do something about the grievers who are War-decking low level corps and new players.
WoW is easy and carebear. EVE is hard, complex and unfriendly at first sight. In EVE you must be smart to survive :).
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:52:00 -
[24]
Dude, never go full ******ed. No one ever comes back from that. --
Originally by: Jasper Dark
I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
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Traidor Disloyal
Minmatar Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:59:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kal Cojoh Try a little experiment. Make a new character, immediately start a corp and higher 15 noobs on trial accounts. Within a week, you will have a war dec from noob griefers (Ginger Magician flavoured people). There are plenty of corps like Die Dunkle Brudascharf, One-Eyed Teddies and Interimo who like to war dec noob corps because they want easy kills. They dont want money, they dont want a challenge, they just want to suckle on noob tears.
You will definitely get noticed if you do this. Why? Because one of em will mouth off in local and get noticed. One will be a smart ass and say something in local that has nothing to do with him. The trick in Eve, has in the outside world, is to keep your head low until you can afford to raise it up high.
Yeah there are people out there that just want to pick on the weak ones. They get their kicks out of doing that. And I do not want them to change one bit. I like Eve because of it. It adds to Eve. Eve is not a touchy-feely game where everyone holds hands and sings happy songs.
You have recourse on the big bad bully that kicked sand in your face when you was just a 2 week old player. You can stay in the game, get bigger and badder. Keep that persons name in your address book and look him up later with other like minded people at your side. If you can not find him then help those who are weaker then you are when the bully's pick on them.
If someone is going to get upset at the first sign of trouble from a bully in this game I would not want them in the same corp I was in. And they really do not belong in this game if they get upset over being bullied.
************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Baldegar
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Posted - 2009.04.28 19:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kal Cojoh
Try a little experiment. Make a new character, immediately start a corp and higher 15 noobs on trial accounts. Within a week, you will have a war dec from noob griefers (Ginger Magician flavoured people). There are plenty of corps like Die Dunkle Brudascharf, One-Eyed Teddies and Interimo who like to war dec noob corps because they want easy kills. They dont want money, they dont want a challenge, they just want to suckle on noob tears.
Since the noob griefers can't see the memberlist of their victims corp they won't know exactly if it's a complete noob corp or only a young CEO/founder of that corp. If they don't have omnipresent intelligence there's a big hole in your theory.
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Arkhan Bayne
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Posted - 2009.04.28 21:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku Join EVE Uni, and learn how to defend yourselves. Newbie corps CAN beat the higher level players if they know what they're doing. Hint: get lots of Blackbird pilots.
indeed, there are a number of ways available for lower-SP characters to take down the big guys. if you're smart, a number of smaller ships can take out bigger ones, you just have to be more focussed in your roles. and pick your fights.
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Dian'h Might
Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.04.29 06:07:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Dian''h Might on 29/04/2009 06:07:52 tbh, if your corp can't provide protection for it's members, then it has no business existing.
Wall of text to illustrate my point:
When my corp first started we only had 5 members, all under a month old. We got wardeced by an antipirate corp with 20+ members, most were over a year old. Instead of crying about it we scouted them out and gathered all the intel we could in the 24 hours before the fighting started, found several of their members mission running, and managed to catch a few of them by surprise in the opening minutes of the war while only incurring the loss of a brutix (due to being new and not knowing the about the docking timer). After that we just made ourselves hard to find and they dropped the dec 2 weeks later with no new kills.
It's really not that hard to avoid being "griefed" by wardecs. If a bunch of new players want to hang out, they can either stay in an NPC corp and create a chat channel to hang out in, or they can find a more established corp who can take them in as a group and hopefully provide protection from wardecs in the form of experienced PvPers and PvP training.
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H Lecter
Gallente The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.04.29 11:17:00 -
[29]
Wardecs are working as intended.
Eventually the wardec mechanics could be explained in the tutorial.
If the noobs cannot fight the 'ebil griefers' they will learn how to run and hide until their enemies get bored. I cannot imagine any mechanism preventing wardecs on noobs that would not open many new loopholes.
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed resolution of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. -Weatherman |
Hath Rator
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Posted - 2009.04.29 13:41:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Hath Rator on 29/04/2009 13:41:18 I think noob grifing corps are actually doing a favor for the game. thay weed out the week and unsuited players at an early stage and even helping them(less money thay pay until thay find out the games not for them). Im not so sure id ever pvp if i wasnt ganked in my nice new expensive cruiser the first time i jumped into low sec to do a mission, It made me want to learn how to fight back.
so noob grifers please dont ever stop what you doing, you make eve a better place for all of us!
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