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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.05.05 19:48:00 -
[571]
850base CPU on Naglfar oO?
Ph÷nix has 875 CPU and needs to fit some more CPU intense modules...
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:37:00 -
[572]
Originally by: fuxinos 850base CPU on Naglfar oO?
Ph÷nix has 875 CPU and needs to fit some more CPU intense modules...
Maybe when all the dreads are looked at along with Citadel torps and POS warfare as a whole you can argue your point. Secretly MirrorGod. Apparently
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Slave 2739FKZ
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:54:00 -
[573]
Yay for shield tanking, this will help to even armor/shield tnaking odds in capital fleets.
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Baron Primus
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Posted - 2009.05.06 04:41:00 -
[574]
Originally by: Imhothar Xarodit Edited by: Imhothar Xarodit on 29/04/2009 18:39:07 It's a start but won't solve the problem of the huge additional time sink it takes a Minmatar pilot to use the ship in combat.
Make it projectile only. Make it three turrets and add a third turret slot to the ship model. I'm sure that is no problem for the great artists you have.
It is the only dread with a spilt weapon system, making it a punishment to train for any Minmatar pilot. It would require some real benefit compared to the other dreads considering the additional training time involved.
My sig sucks. |
Talia Windheart
Minmatar Kouncel
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Posted - 2009.05.06 05:30:00 -
[575]
completly unhelpful rant to follow
leave my damn Dread alone.. if your going ot make any changes give it 7 lows and make the bonus's projectile based but for the love of god do NOT make it a shield tanker. and leave the PG alone damn it
KNC4LIFE |
Captain N8Hellyea
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Posted - 2009.05.06 05:48:00 -
[576]
Well ppl have good points here.. It takes longer to train to fly a Nag,just to get everything up to respectible levels,Just to find yurself being called primary right off the bat in cap fights. kinda makes ya angry how the extra time involved equals you having a ship not up to par with others, good start CCP, but please dont rush this, think it thru and help the Naglfar. We need damage, We need tank
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Slayton Ford
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 05:52:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Talia Windheart completly unhelpful rant to follow
leave my damn Dread alone.. if your going ot make any changes give it 7 lows and make the bonus's projectile based but for the love of god do NOT make it a shield tanker. and leave the PG alone damn it
What are you *****ing at. Your getting an extra mid so you can still have a sub dps armor tanking ship. The fact is, Mini are both shiled and armor tankers, in almost every line of ships. Cyclone/Cane. Phoon/Maelstorm. Jag/Wolf. etc. Additionally both the Hel and Rag are shield tankers. It makes little sense that the Min caps are armor tankers yet the super caps are shield tankers.
Finally, since removing the split weapons WAS NOT A OPTION, then even add one low would still let you have a sub DPS cap compared to all else. With the new Nag, you can run a all gank fit w/ faction (3 gyro/3bcu) and be able to do 20% more DPS then the next dread while still haveing a short burst tank. (Rev w/ 3x AN HS and lvl 5 skills is 4700 dps; new Nag w/ 3x RF Gyro, 3x CN BCU and lvl 5 is 5600+ dps). --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer... |
Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.06 07:05:00 -
[578]
Originally by: Slayton Ford
Finally, since removing the split weapons WAS NOT A OPTION
Actually, it was. Plenty of solutions were offered which didn't require remaking the model. CCP just decided not to listen.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.06 07:19:00 -
[579]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Originally by: Slayton Ford
Finally, since removing the split weapons WAS NOT A OPTION
Actually, it was. Plenty of solutions were offered which didn't require remaking the model. CCP just decided not to listen.
Current changes are good enough , whats your problem with it,other than you need to learn out shield tanking?
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pocnitoarea
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Posted - 2009.05.06 07:53:00 -
[580]
so let me see if i get it straight: artys: first you are decreasing the artys rof, and after that you give the ship a rof bonus? what the point of adding 2 modifications that bassically, are nullifying each other(at least to a point); also what about the clip size?
tank:adding a med slot it's nice but he will still have the worst tank ever; he will be unable to do a proper armor tank(hello powergrid, armor hp), he will be unable to do a proper shield tank(hello shield hp, cpu,cap); in the end he will be able to do shield and armor tank, but none well; hello versatility! how about capital shield training req? how about matar being the only race who need to train capital projectile, capital torp(fail weapons sistems), capital armor repairer(thany) and capital shield booster(nag)=@60 days of training more then the rest of cap pilots, just to be able to fly the mini dread and carrier; and after all that you will be better to fit 2 cruise missile launchers instead of your capital torps if you are going to jump in a long range cap fight/not sieged dreads/carriers. just decide if this ship will be a shield tanker or an armor tanker and make the req modifications: shield/armor hp, cpu, cap,powergid, 5/7 or 7/5 slots; also before giving the ship stupid bonuses, maybe trying to fix the projectile ammo/arty and torp dmg will be a nice ideea.
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Zhull
Amarr Patagonia Holdings
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Posted - 2009.05.06 08:00:00 -
[581]
Edited by: Zhull on 06/05/2009 08:00:13 With the proposed changes it outdamages all dreads but the Revelation when properly fit and it can choose its damage type.
The nag can switch from EMP to PP and it only looses 9% of its gun damage. The Phoenix can also choose its damage type but looses the 25% damage bonus when using anything other than kinetic torpedoes. The other two dreads have fixed damage types from their main weapons (moros can change drones that represent 1/4 of its damage but at the expense of loosing 7% or 14% of its drone damage when switching to curators or wardens respectively).
The ability to swithch damage types with little to no penalty gives the Nag more effective DPS when performing its primary role (shooting towers) because it can choose to shoot at the lowest resistance (provided that it is not one of those Caldari towers full of hardeners). The Nag damage should be balanced taking this ability into account.
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2009.05.06 08:06:00 -
[582]
Not really, it takes so much more extra training that if it¦s bit better for something than pwnlation then that¦s fine. If anything Phoenix should be best pos killing dread followed by Nagl since it¦s still going to be fairly sucky for long range battle. Sentry drone scooping issues affect every dread, I guess latest scoop range increase didn¦t help.
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ollobrains
Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace
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Posted - 2009.05.06 09:12:00 -
[583]
bring it mid level with the other dreads and caps i think
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Xelios
Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 10:03:00 -
[584]
Originally by: Zhull Edited by: Zhull on 06/05/2009 08:00:13 With the proposed changes it outdamages all dreads but the Revelation when properly fit and it can choose its damage type.
Being just under the Rev in terms of damage is about where it should be, considering all the extra training that goes into it. Minmatar being able to choose their damage type is only half right, you can only choose different mixes and 80% of those mixes are exp/kin with a couple points of something else. No matter what you choose a portion of your damage will be hardened against by the tower, not to mention after PP you start losing so much raw damage that it doesn't make sense to use anything lower unless you need the range bonus.
So really, it can choose between em/kin/exp or therm/kin. Typically between 33-50% of its damage will be hardened against no matter what ammo you use, unless you happen to be shooting a tower with no exp/kin resistance (which is the same as say a Rev shooting a tower with no em/therm resistance).
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Jack Sparroxx
Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.06 10:14:00 -
[585]
I dont know much abouy Nag's
But what I do know it that they get primaried on POS's and in for the most part in cap fights too. And it is a ***** to train up for. split tank and split weapons.
Keep it a shield tanker to keep it in line with the minie carrier and the main bulk of the sub caps. Perhaps reduce the turret slots to 3. and make it versatile so it can either use citadel torps, gun or a mix there of.
So to reduce training time for nag's, stop the split traing thats needed.
But funny enough moros have abit of the same problem with split training. If you dont have excellet drone skills and T2 sentries, a good portion of you potential DPS is simply not there.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.06 10:24:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Originally by: Slayton Ford
Finally, since removing the split weapons WAS NOT A OPTION
Actually, it was. Plenty of solutions were offered which didn't require remaking the model. CCP just decided not to listen.
Current changes are good enough , whats your problem with it,other than you need to learn out shield tanking?
"good enough"
hth~
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2009.05.06 10:26:00 -
[587]
Originally by: Jack Sparroxx
But what I do know it that they get primaried on POS's and in for the most part in cap fights too. And it is a ***** to train up for. split tank and split weapons.
Keep it a shield tanker to keep it in line with the minie carrier and the main bulk of the sub caps. Perhaps reduce the turret slots to 3. and make it versatile so it can either use citadel torps, gun or a mix there of.
So to reduce training time for nag's, stop the split traing thats needed.
But funny enough moros have abit of the same problem with split training. If you dont have excellet drone skills and T2 sentries, a good portion of you potential DPS is simply not there.
Well CCP already said it¦s unlikely they¦ll add or remove hardpoints since they have to redo the artwork. 2 x turret with 100% damage bonus and suitable gun bonuses on would be best IMO. Current suggestion is big improvement but it¦s still messy.
Nidhoggur is actually more of a armor tanker now than shield tanker after they switched it from 6/5 to 5/6 slots (and my personal preference is that it stays as a armor tanker, shield nids without resistance bonus would be even more of a primary in carrier group). So in essence if you want to fly minnie caps you need to train cap shields, cap armor, cap missiles and cap projectiles and maybe T2 sentries. It¦s just a little bit excessive if you aren¦t getting some extra performance for your SP. Versatility is just a joke in capital sized ships for most part. Moros is actually most versatile dread since it can kill subcaps.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.05.06 10:44:00 -
[588]
Originally by: fuxinos 850base CPU on Naglfar oO?
Ph÷nix has 875 CPU and needs to fit some more CPU intense modules...
If both are shield tanked that ammount of CPU is about right the diffrence in CPU usage from low and mid slot modules that get used on average (ignoring capital boosters) is about 10-15 CPU the diffrence in highslots for phoenix/nag is about 10 CPU so its about correct
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.06 11:15:00 -
[589]
Originally by: Random Womble
Originally by: fuxinos 850base CPU on Naglfar oO?
Ph÷nix has 875 CPU and needs to fit some more CPU intense modules...
If both are shield tanked that ammount of CPU is about right the diffrence in CPU usage from low and mid slot modules that get used on average (ignoring capital boosters) is about 10-15 CPU the diffrence in highslots for phoenix/nag is about 10 CPU so its about correct
Also the naglfar needs to fit 1 more gun than the phoenix. That brings back the available CPU to simmilar levels.
And to people that LOl think it will be overpowered.. LO> Its still the only dread that has so few slots to tank. So its ok that it does have a bit more damage because that is its role. A frickign vertical suicidal capital ship!!!
STOP TRYINg TO MAKE EVERYTHING EQUAL! We don need another moros. We need flavor and THIS is a VERY flavored work from CCP.
CONGRATULATIONS CCP! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.06 11:22:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Xelios
Originally by: Zhull Edited by: Zhull on 06/05/2009 08:00:13 With the proposed changes it outdamages all dreads but the Revelation when properly fit and it can choose its damage type.
Being just under the Rev in terms of damage is about where it should be, considering all the extra training that goes into it. Minmatar being able to choose their damage type is only half right, you can only choose different mixes and 80% of those mixes are exp/kin with a couple points of something else. No matter what you choose a portion of your damage will be hardened against by the tower, not to mention after PP you start losing so much raw damage that it doesn't make sense to use anything lower unless you need the range bonus.
So really, it can choose between em/kin/exp or therm/kin. Typically between 33-50% of its damage will be hardened against no matter what ammo you use, unless you happen to be shooting a tower with no exp/kin resistance (which is the same as say a Rev shooting a tower with no em/therm resistance).
No it should NOT! Naglfar NEEDS to have MORE damage because its hitpoint buffer is a JOKE when compared to revelation. The naglfar is VERY fine now.
Keep also in mind revelation still have other advantages.. INFINITELY more easy logistics due to ammo. When fit for extended range it is stil by FAR the best dread due to only having to bonus 1 weapon system to extend range and not depending on missiles (improved but still far worse than turrets). Also citatels are very bad against carriers.
As of these new changes the dreads all ahve their places and flavor. Moros is the supreme machine when getting rid of the enemy support harassing him. Naglfar is the top damage dealer with inferior tank on medium ranges. REvelation is the "I don have any flaws" machine with insane HP buffer, insane damage and logistcs. The phoenix Its the most damaging dread at long range, still needs help on the explosion velocity to engage carriers. So helpign a tiny bit the phoenix and we have a GOOD balance. With FLAVOR! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.05.06 13:08:00 -
[591]
So, where is the benefit over other dreads that justifies the massive SP requirements and investment of time required?
Secretly MirrorGod. Apparently
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Vlip
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.06 13:13:00 -
[592]
Quote: So, where is the benefit over other dreads that justifies the massive SP requirements and investment of time required?
It's vertical?
Sorry, I got nothing better. While the new naglfar is an ok ship, there still is no edge whatsoever that would make the insane training reqs worth it.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.06 13:32:00 -
[593]
Originally by: RedSplat So, where is the benefit over other dreads that justifies the massive SP requirements and investment of time required?
there is no MASSIVE sp difference. its a SLIGHT SP difference. Almost every minmatar character when reachign dreadnaught level already has quite some missile skills. So its another 2 or so weeks of extra training. Not really a SERIOUS PROBLEM.
People must keep in mind that at most 1 in every 100 dread pilots train their capital weapons to level 5 and read skill to level 5 as well. And even if that was common you can do pretty well with citatels at level 4 only now that they represent less from the ship damage.
On the shiled/armor issue. ALL decent minmatar pilots can both armor and shield tank. Then you need only 1 more skill the capital shield skill itself. Again NOTHING HUGELY problematic.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Charles Kuralt
Caldari Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:13:00 -
[594]
So no solution for motherships being able to speed tank citadels? Ah well, here's to Phoenix being the new fail-dread.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:17:00 -
[595]
Edited by: RedSplat on 06/05/2009 14:17:13
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
there is no MASSIVE sp difference. its a SLIGHT SP difference.
I don't consider training two capital weapon systems, along with the associated support gunnery and missile skills to 4 to be a slight difference between the training plan any other Dread pilot will have to shoulder. Secretly MirrorGod. Apparently
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.06 15:14:00 -
[596]
Compare the total time you need to train for a dreadnaught. THat includes advanced weaposn upgrade 5, tactical reconfi level 4, the jump skills, dread skill BS V.... all taht is a LOT of months... Now add the extra time you need to get torpedoes 5 (the missile support skills you already have if you are a half decent minmatar pilot). The projectiles don count because other dread also train for 1 weapon system... Its a 5-7% difference at most. Not the DOUBLE TRAINING most people say.
Its IRRELEVANT. That comming from someone that is a trained naglfar pilot. Its almost irrelevant on the grand scheme of things. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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isdisco3
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.06 15:40:00 -
[597]
Edited by: isdisco3 on 06/05/2009 15:46:25
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Compare the total time you need to train for a dreadnaught. THat includes advanced weaposn upgrade 5, tactical reconfi level 4, the jump skills, dread skill BS V.... all taht is a LOT of months... Now add the extra time you need to get torpedoes 5 (the missile support skills you already have if you are a half decent minmatar pilot). The projectiles don count because other dread also train for 1 weapon system... Its a 5-7% difference at most. Not the DOUBLE TRAINING most people say.
Its IRRELEVANT. That comming from someone that is a trained naglfar pilot. Its almost irrelevant on the grand scheme of things.
If it gets the slot layout proposed (6/6), you'll want to shield tank it. That means that, versus a normal dread pilot (who has trained only one type of tanking, because their race isn't ******ed and doesn't use both types), you'll need to train additionally:
torps 5 + citadels 4 (3 weeks) missile supports (1-2 weeks) - (not all of us trained missiles) tactical shield manipulation 5 + capital shield op (3 weeks)
given that you can now roll a dread pilot from scratch in about 10 months (more or less), an additional 2 months training time is quite significant. and its for no worthwhile result, you'll be throwing in the additional time simply to fly a dread which will be middle of the pack in terms of performance and lowish in terms of tank.
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maya ibuki2
THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.06 15:55:00 -
[598]
Originally by: isdisco3 Edited by: isdisco3 on 06/05/2009 15:46:25 If it gets the slot layout proposed (6/6), you'll want to shield tank it. That means that, versus a normal dread pilot (who has trained only one type of tanking, because their race isn't ******ed and doesn't use both types), you'll need to train additionally:
torps 5 + citadels 4 (3 weeks) missile supports (1-2 weeks) - (not all of us trained missiles) tactical shield manipulation 5 + capital shield op (3 weeks)
given that you can now roll a dread pilot from scratch in about 10 months (more or less), an additional 2 months training time is quite significant. and its for no worthwhile result, you'll be throwing in the additional time simply to fly a dread which will be middle of the pack in terms of performance and lowish in terms of tank.
that is only applicable if your training the toon specifically to fly dreads. the amount of people who do that and dont intend to sell the char are minimal at best, come think of it, the amount of people whod skill specifically for the naglfar to sell the char is minimal too. anyway, your point is irrelevant. every minmatar pilot who wants to maximise the stregnth of his ships will have missiles and guns, and shield and armour skills, and all the relevant support skills, trained pretty damn high anyway. most minmatar pilots i know all have their relevant (by class size) missile and proj skills at 5, about half of them never intend to fly a capital of any kind at all (yarrr). you would be the one different pilot. maya ibuki2-currently thorn alliance pvper, proud member of the 54th knights templar and genral shooty type |
Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.05.06 16:14:00 -
[599]
Edited by: Ecky X on 06/05/2009 16:15:05 I consider Citadel Torps an equal tradeoff for sentry II's. Both the Nag and the Moros have extra training, but both have a wider variety of workable fits than the Phoenix and Rev. |
superlolzz
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Posted - 2009.05.06 16:39:00 -
[600]
Edited by: superlolzz on 06/05/2009 16:42:09
Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 06/05/2009 16:15:05 I consider Citadel Torps an equal tradeoff for sentry II's. Both the Nag and the Moros have extra training, but both have a wider variety of workable fits than the Phoenix and Rev.
not really, cause sentry drones are quite useful for a large amount of things (ishtar, domi) while citadel torps is capital ship only. And really no minnie ships fight missiles anyway (cept the phoon, which fits cruise, and isn't that good anyway :|)
the latest proposed change is a definite step up, but as stated still leaves the nag behind the other dreads in every category, along with the slap in the face dual training.
And no most minnie specific pilots don't have awesome missile skills (why would we, what ship uses missiles? :P) And while we may have basic shield tanking skills NO ONE gets tactical shield manipulation 5 unless you want capital shield booster.
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