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Veryez
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Posted - 2009.05.08 18:20:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 08/05/2009 01:21:38 All this would do is make large autocannons stronger on ships other than minmatar. Both the abaddon and the hyperion would be able to gain DPS, tracking, and rid themselves of cap usage by switching to autocannons. 800mm IIs would do comparable DPS to damage-bonused Ion Blaster Cannon IIs and would do more DPS than damage-bonused Mega Pulse Laser IIS.
And that is the worst possible reason to not balance large projectiles, to nerf them because of what other ships 'might' do. besides what does the abaddon or the hyperion need the cap for? A dual rep tank? Maybe in a very small gang, but you're better off with HACs or BCs in a very small gang. With the superiority of passive tanks today, I can't get too upset over a dual rep hyperion possibly imbalancing projectiles.
No, not boosting large projectiles because amarr or gal ships might benefit because of it is foolish. Does it benefit Minmatar battleships? If so, then it should be looked at seriously. Otherwise we get the situation we have here now, which doesn't work. Even with the boosts I recommended, an abaddon with AC's will not be close to one with pulse lasers, and a hype with neuts will always out DPS one with 800's.
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.05.08 19:04:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 08/05/2009 19:04:54 Run the numbers. The abaddon with 800s and a ROF bonus does MORE damage than with megapulse, though admittedly at much shorter ranges. The Hype does slightly less with neutrons, which it has trouble fitting anyway. Why not just add some range and tracking to the weapons instead of trying to give the ships a tracking or range bonus.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.08 19:10:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
Run the numbers. The abaddon with 800s and a ROF bonus does MORE damage than with megapulse, though admittedly at much shorter ranges. The Hype does slightly less with neutrons, which it has trouble fitting anyway. Why not just add some range and tracking to the weapons instead of trying to give the ships a tracking or range bonus.
Comments: - The Abaddon range issue is a really freaking big deal. Nobody would fly Autos simply because their damage sucks once they're in falloff (which is pretty well immediately) - The Hype with Autos would be a big deal, but the answer there is probably fixing blasters to not suck, since they already suck, no? - I'm a big fan of simply unnerfing minnie high damage ammo and adding falloff to the higher weapon tiers (both for AC and Auto). (This is an "I agree, mostly")
That said, I don't think the suggestion is really that bad, and I'd have to really crunch numbers to see how it would affect things. I'll very closely crunch the numbers on whatever CCP decides to do though, you can bet your hiney!
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.05.08 19:26:00 -
[64]
I would rock autos on the Abaddon if it got the ROF increase. It would give me more DPS up close as well as better tracking, and it would completely remove the need for a cap booster.
I would also try out the auto-Rokh with a pure HP tank and again no cap booster, since I don't need it.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.08 22:04:00 -
[65]
my numbers says unbonused neutrons are better on mael than bonused 800s up to 25km. You must play on difrent server or another world.
60D GTC - shattared link |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2009.05.09 00:50:00 -
[66]
Projectiles and Minmatar BS were one of the most requested balancing issues. I'm somewhat sad that neither has shown up as a sticky yet.
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Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.09 02:54:00 -
[67]
OK i don't see why people would fit AC on other ships if they got boosted even by such a massive amount as having the ROF bonus added to the guns because as it stands today:
(no drones just guns. all skills to 5. the second range number of cause is 1x falloff, the point where damage is about 50%.) Meal 3x Gyro t2, 8x 800mm ACt2 RF EMP L: 805dps at 3+20km Meal 3x Gyro t2, 8x 800mm ACt2 Barrage L: 700dps at 6+30km Abaddon 3x HS t2, 8x Megapulse t2 AN Multi L: 916dps at 15+10km Abaddon 3x HS t2, 8x Megapulse t2 Scorch L: 730dps at 45+10km Hyperion 3x MFS t2, 8x ION Blaster t2 CN Anti L: 1002dps at 3.8+10km Hyperion 3x MFS t2, 8x ION Blaster t2 Null L: 799dps at 9.4+13km
I do not see how it would be unbalanced to boost AC compared to ether of this weapon. ------------------ In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. (Douglas Adams) |
Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.05.09 05:37:00 -
[68]
I can't help but question...
If blasters suck, and autocannons suck, then autocannons aren't "terrible compared to all other weapons", pulses are great compared to all other weapons. If you knocked a bit of damage off of pulses, you'd be in the same place as if you boosted falloff on projectiles and dps or tracking on blasters.
No?
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.05.09 06:30:00 -
[69]
well... i always tend to defend minnies for their expl damage, which makes quite some sense in this world of armor. but as soon as i compare the numbers in regard to rep fleet fusion, an entire gene pool of kitten dies.
about the "flavour" of projectiles... 1400mm could have 20km optimal + 100km falloff, both w/o skills. ammos could be changed to various tracking modifiers. -> all-lvl-V would shoot 25km+125km with emp L - may look great on paper with 450-500 dps (2-3 gyros) but in falloff-reality, it'd be no better than the ~200dps dd-proof fits we have these days. since no module adds f/o anyway, the only helpers would be ambit extensions (feel free to introduce the stacking penalty then) and we could focus on tracking scripts in tracking comps rather than poorly imitating tracking enhancers. - putting the gist back into logistics |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.09 07:05:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 09/05/2009 07:06:54
Originally by: Ecky X I can't help but question...
If blasters suck, and autocannons suck, then autocannons aren't "terrible compared to all other weapons", pulses are great compared to all other weapons. If you knocked a bit of damage off of pulses, you'd be in the same place as if you boosted falloff on projectiles and dps or tracking on blasters.
No?
No, you are 100% wrong. Nerfing pulses might make all weapons equal, but it would be a nerf to offense in general (in gank vs. tank balance). On the other hand, boosting blasters and ACs up to the level of pulses is a boost to offense as a whole, something that is badly needed. -----------
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.09 07:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin No, you are 100% wrong. Nerfing pulses might make all weapons equal, but it would be a nerf to offense in general (in gank vs. tank balance). On the other hand, boosting blasters and ACs up to the level of pulses is a boost to offense as a whole, something that is badly needed.
While you're correct about what the implication of boost or nerf is, it's also worth noting that active defense is actually badly underpowered. Boosting offense as a whole would (further) nerf active tanking bonuses.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Veryez
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Posted - 2009.05.09 12:43:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 08/05/2009 19:20:59 Run the numbers. The abaddon with 800s and a ROF bonus does MORE damage than with megapulse, though admittedly at much shorter ranges. The Hype would deal slightly less than with neutrons, which it has trouble fitting anyway. Why not just add some range and tracking to the weapons instead of trying to give the ships a tracking or range bonus.
Did you run the same numbers as I did? Here's what I get, numbers without any damage mods, all skills @ 5, best faction ammo, just adding the ROF bonus:
Abaddon 8x800 II's w/Rf EMP - 487 dps, 3k optimal 20k falloff Abaddon 8xMega Pulse II's w/AN MF - 554 dps, 15k optimal 10k falloff
Hype w/800's - same as above Hype 8xNeut IIs w/CN AM - 647 dps, 4.5k optimal 13k falloff
adding gyros, heat sinks or mags and the numbers are:
Abaddon 8x800 II's w/Rf EMP 3xGyro II's - 804 dps, 3k optimal 20k falloff Abaddon 8xMega Pulse II's w/AN MF 3xHS II's - 916 dps, 15k optimal 10k falloff
Hype w/800's - same as above Hype 8xNeut IIs w/CN AM 3xMag II's - 1069 dps, 4.5k optimal 13k falloff
That's with the ROF boost, add in the returned damage to emp and the 3% to 800's like I earlier stated:
Abaddon/Hype 8x800's RF EMP - 526 dps(without Gyros) 868 dps (with Gyros), same optimal and falloff as above.
Obviously to utilize that damage you must get 3k from your opponent, and keep him there which implies MWD and probably double webs. So even then you're doing less damage at lower ranges. If you choose to fly these setups, then so be it - they don't seem op to me, but that's what sisi's for. Minmatar Battleships and large projectiles need help, even without the damage boosts I suggested, just adding in the ROF would go a long way in closing the gap between minmatar battleships and others.
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.05.09 13:36:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 09/05/2009 13:40:27 Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 09/05/2009 13:37:08
Originally by: Ecky X I can't help but question...
If blasters suck, and autocannons suck, then autocannons aren't "terrible compared to all other weapons", pulses are great compared to all other weapons. If you knocked a bit of damage off of pulses, you'd be in the same place as if you boosted falloff on projectiles and dps or tracking on blasters.
No?
Laser tracking sucks for shooting anything moving at close range. Unfortunately the same is true for Blasters and ACs as well. Simply boosting tracking and range slightly for ACs and boosting tracking significantly for blasters would at least give them their small gang and solo roles back.
Originally by: Veryez
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 08/05/2009 19:20:59 Run the numbers. The abaddon with 800s and a ROF bonus does MORE damage than with megapulse
Did you run the same numbers as I did?
I got that one wrong, I think one of my ships had drones on it while the other didn't.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Koniss
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Posted - 2009.05.10 00:12:00 -
[74]
giving to AC +33% (25% rof) dps boost and remove the rof from the ships is a bad idea imho as it make projectile more usable to other races.
boost AC damage to put them in a level between pulse and blaster and scale falloff with the incrasing size of the gun, for example 16km on dual425 (same as now) 18km on dual650, 20km on 800mm (examples made on large guns but they would still apply to med and small guns). change arty with doubled dmg mod and adjusted rof to mantain dps the same.
another thing to mention is both blaster and pulse get a noticeable DPS inncrease when changing the tier of the guns, while on AC most of the times there is no real reason to use the larger tier of the weapon unless you really have the grid left.
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RabbitofDoom
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Posted - 2009.05.10 01:15:00 -
[75]
Increase rof a lot on projectile weapons while keeping a low clip sizes. Make a projectile damage mod +optimal/falloff +damage. Projectiles would turn in to burst weapons of eve. Delivering devastanting barrage of projectiles but in same time you would hear click click before you could say dakadakadaka.
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Cheekie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.13 15:01:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Cheekie on 13/05/2009 15:03:52 All these great ideas, a lot I agree with, however some of the objections to a change... well common logic will prevail right?
To the nay sayers, you do not understand fall off and that minnie ships are not capable of fitting other guns systems properly do to cap issues (Yes Minnie ships are designed to suck in the cap department). So in other words we are stuck with the CCP master blue print of these ships. You can however put projo's on any other racial ship if you like, clearly not a good idea. So if we can not change out our racial guns with much success, give us bone and bring our guns up to par. I am going to suggest what par is because that I believe is up to eve to decide.
What really gets my goat is that the people that produced this great game have not offered up a response to this thread yet. I am still waiting, watching and not letting this die like so many other things you have waited for us to drop. I have played this game for 5+ years and have never seen projo's be anything but sub par. There is no real reason that a pod jockey should train these other than to say "I like the sound they make".
Eager for a decent response, Cheeks
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Cheekie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.15 04:05:00 -
[77]
Played with the dread (Nag) today, You almost have it fixed. You know what would finalize it? Fix the projo's. Give then a larger clip, reduce the rate of fire and increase the dps/alpha. Just enough to give it a little more dps and a way better alpha.
As for the current projectile figures, My wife is in the back yard throwing rocks to give you the exact figures you need. So far if my kinematic formula does not lie, it looks like .5m/s in the trash bin direction. All jokes aside, fix these dead weights already.
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Stretchmeat Crotchquake
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.15 07:17:00 -
[78]
Change the Maelstrom booster bonus to a resist bonus, and/or give it +7.5% optimal per level, and the battleship artillery issue will be essentially fixed.
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Opraxis
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Posted - 2009.05.15 07:36:00 -
[79]
I am not seeing how that helps every other minmatar ship suffering from falloff syndrome and weak dps.
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To mare
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Posted - 2009.05.15 09:03:00 -
[80]
since projectile weapon sux hard CCP should do something in the style of what they did to naglfar: change all bonus to projectile weapons of minmatar ship from 5% to 7,5% per level. yes minmatar ships will have high paper dps with that but cansidering the great amage reduction of falloff and the weakest overall tanks should be pretty well balanced.
tempest with double damage bonus will gain a +25% dps in number a standard tempest fit will recive a boost in gun dps from 650 to 800/850 dps + plus drones i thin a double damage bonused ship deserve to do some damage and even with this change it still be outdamaged by others BS at optimal range (go figure when you count falloff).
arties sadly need a deeper rework cause even with this boost they will be still unable to perform what they supposed to do, so boost the the damage mod by a great % and tweak rof to reduce dps (you can even reduce the of unbonused arty since it will be boosted by improved bonus on ships but give minmatar a respectable volley damage).
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Dart Sirius
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Posted - 2009.05.15 09:38:00 -
[81]
I always have to laugh when matars cry for more dps and tank.. have you ever tried to fit a shield extender or invu with matar T2 resists? tank is done with 1-2 module fitted lol... I agree with the large arty problem its low on tracking, range and maybe need some more dps but whats wrong with the 5200 alpha?? apoc fitted with tachyons do like 4500 and you dont want to know how sucks to fit it.. So i say give some love for large arty but leave the others its almost every decent pvper fly matar ships already.
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Khornne
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Posted - 2009.05.15 09:55:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Dart Sirius I always have to laugh when matars cry for more dps and tank.. have you ever tried to fit a shield extender or invu with matar T2 resists? tank is done with 1-2 module fitted lol... I agree with the large arty problem its low on tracking, range and maybe need some more dps but whats wrong with the 5200 alpha?? apoc fitted with tachyons do like 4500 and you dont want to know how sucks to fit it.. So i say give some love for large arty but leave the others its almost every decent pvper fly matar ships already.
Ever compared how often an Apoc has to reload and how often someone with 1400s has?
...
-- Khornne's Teamspeak Server Service
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To mare
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Posted - 2009.05.15 10:02:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Dart Sirius I always have to laugh when matars cry for more dps and tank.. have you ever tried to fit a shield extender or invu with matar T2 resists? tank is done with 1-2 module fitted lol... I agree with the large arty problem its low on tracking, range and maybe need some more dps but whats wrong with the 5200 alpha?? apoc fitted with tachyons do like 4500 and you dont want to know how sucks to fit it.. So i say give some love for large arty but leave the others its almost every decent pvper fly matar ships already.
vagabond isnt the only minmatar ship. and if you want to do a alpha comparison use the abadon and then come back
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Dart Sirius
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Posted - 2009.05.15 11:22:00 -
[84]
I often use abaddon and yes amarr BS are good its true. But saying in general that all projectile weapons are crap lets boost them thats not true at all. Matar ships are the best in most of the classes like Command ships, Logistics, HACs, AFs, Dictors, Heavy Dictors, what if they not have the best BS and Capitals? Theres a balance in game even if most of the players cant see it. BTW i still agree that large atry need some LOVE
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Veryez
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Posted - 2009.05.15 12:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake Change the Maelstrom booster bonus to a resist bonus, and/or give it +7.5% optimal per level, and the battleship artillery issue will be essentially fixed.
First off why on earth would you give the mael a 7.5% optimal bonus, when every other battleship that has an optimal bonus gets 10%/level? Second, giving the mael a 10% optimal bonus and reducing it's dps by 25% would be an extreme nerf. That's the problem with projectiles - their dps is so nerfed, that a ship needs a 5% rof/level boost to bring them somewhat equal to other weapons. So Matari battleships lose one bonus since they have to get the ROF bonus or their guns would do pitiful damage. That's why I suggest rolling the ROF bonus into the guns and removing it from the ships, it allows the ships to have a more useful bonus.
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Cheekie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.15 19:38:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Cheekie on 15/05/2009 19:39:43 I am starting to see that I need to be very specific here. I don't intend to point this thread in a direction of auto's that is my fault for not be more specific. Yes I know the auto's are less than great, but still not as bad as artillery. I kind of thought that most people would be on the ball and figure this is about artillery in the range of bs and capitals, With a possible look and autos. This is not a whine about the ships, with a proper artillery fit I believe that most of the ships would fall back on par with others.
Quote: So i say give some love for large arty but leave the others (its almost every decent pvper fly matar ships already).
Although I agree with you on the other stuff you said. You my friend need to go search through endless fleet battles and on major alliance killboard sites, not some back water band of circle**rks. Find me 10 ,100+ man battles where minnie is top of the fleet list. should be easy as hell right? or maybe not. To make the figures with a conclusion we will need how many you had to go through to get those 10. If you want to just put your faith in me, I am telling you it is going to take you awhile and you are going to find few. Better yet don't trust either of us, go find out for yourselves how many fleet battles minnie are #1 in.
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Dart Sirius
FREE GATES Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.05.16 00:05:00 -
[87]
They almost #1 in everything why they have to be #1 in fleet battles too?
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2009.05.16 01:50:00 -
[88]
Originally by: RabbitofDoom Increase rof a lot on projectile weapons while keeping a low clip sizes. Make a projectile damage mod +optimal/falloff +damage. Projectiles would turn in to burst weapons of eve. Delivering devastanting barrage of projectiles but in same time you would hear click click before you could say dakadakadaka.
Pretty much but I cannot see it happening. People already cry for alpha and curse at their reload. Projectiles need this - DPS edge till first reload and sharply losing DPS afterwards. Alpha won't happen, it is not fun for the victim, this approach would work.
The falloff even as generous as it seems is not enough on slow BSs made even slower post nanonerf - full falloff is not what you should aim for. The fact that there is ewar with no counter makes it only worse. TEs (not TCs) affecting falloff would have a side effect of softly promoting more shield tankers - and since TEs barely affect tracking it would not overpower AC fits (TCs could).
Also what most miss is that projectiles are heavily pre-nerfed. The ROF bonus is there to unnerf them, that is all it does. Also, the damage type choice is mixed blessing - it is not really freedom to chose damage type, rather necessity to load correct ammo to unnerf your damage, with one of the intentions beging forcing artillery into certain fixed range, reducing the mobility advantage if you fit arties (inflexible optimal and low tracking).
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Cheekie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.16 04:12:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Cheekie on 16/05/2009 04:13:06
Quote: They almost #1 in everything why they have to be #1 in fleet battles too?
I am afraid you most elaborate. #1 in what, If you say Vaga I am going to have my wife throw rocks at you. Vegeta blows, and so does your unsupported statement. You are the mythical Vegeta/troll/forum warrior with his tropical fruit hat. Make like (insert possible race here) 4 skin and remove yourself.
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Dart Sirius
FREE GATES Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.05.16 10:45:00 -
[90]
and i still agree that large arty needs LOOOOVVVEEE
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