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Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
Eve is approximately 100 light years across total. For a Dreadnaught/Capital fleet of a thousand to cross this distance would take less than 11 jumps.
To cross from one end of Eve to the other.
Now, I am sure there are a few limiting factors like capacitor recharge, system loading time, and other things. But it is possible to go from one end of Eve to the other in less time than it takes a frigate to make 15 jumps and cross a part.. a PART... of High Sec.
Needless to say, this is broken fast.
It also adds risk/reward by allowing capital fleets to bypass all chock points, paths, and appear where-ever they want in their destination system.
But it also is a great game mechanic because it "scales well". And by that I mean it grow linearly in power with the number of users. That is it is approximately 10 times more powerful for a 100 person alliance than a 10. Why?
Because the number of places you can go it dependent on Cyno alts in the system or near the system. More players, more logged out cyno alts EVERYWHER. And it only takes one to go to a system.
This is why that Goon FC had his meltdown in Jita. Yes yes he is a lousy stupid player with no sense. But he doesn't need sense when he can get himself in trouble anywhere in the galaxy except High Sec and scream "CYNO! CYNO!" and get a 100+ ship zerg to bail him out.
So, how many serious PvPers have quit when they realized that any Goon or PL important enough to be able to scream "CYNO CYNO!" anywhere except High Sec is effectively untouchable?
This is also why Goons hate High Sec. And wormhole space. Don't think they don't. The safe word doesn't work.
But really, that's the way it works in real life to. If you are the minion of a great power, you just shake your but at the locals and they have to put up with it.
Or they kill you and your government runs off.
But, thanks to the design of the jump drive, we can all enjoy 1,000 man blobs that can be in any non-high sec system in Eve in under 15 minutes.
And reasonably, any non-High sec system in under 10 minutes if they are at all properly positioned.
But that makes sense. I've never heard of Imperial Overstretch or "only controls the ground upon which they stand". Eve is simply trying to mimic ancient and modern warfare by allowing armies to travel anywhere instantly.
The ability to go anywhere instantly with the most powerful ships in the game is necessary from a game balance perspective.
After all, a five minute cooldown per jump would lead to... I don't know, what would it lead to?, Goons and PL having to use actual tactics? |
Contagion
Chaotic dynamics
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
I completely agree. I've been in Eve since beta and 0.0 used to be much more exciting because to get your goods out you had to launch a convoy and protect it, and fly your goods out. Not a single jump, or perhaps 2 and your safely in high-sec.
Jump drives have ruined 0.0 |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1443
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash.... |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1620
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
"Choke" points...not "chock" points. I stopped reading there but I really don't need to read any further to know I agree with you. Old hat is old.
EDIT: Went and read the rest of it...yup...I agree. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one day's worth of fun.
Remember, this is a game, not a job. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one group of fights.
I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes.
Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long.
Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
366
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
The biggest problem is that the usage of jump mechanics is just way too cheap. It's affordable for player-level usage, even for for cheap KM-whoring hotdrops, while it should be so expensive it's only viable for corp or even alliance-level strategic goals like saving a vital POS, getting fuel past a blockade, or countering a nasty roaming fleet in home territory. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....
While I can see some problems just doing that without adjustements, it would actually make it easier for High Sec players to make the High Sec to Low Sec adjustment, because they could avoid the low/high gate-camps.
And that is a big argument in it's favor. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote: I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes.
Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long.
Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now.
A) 1000 man blobs don't just happen, they take planning or a galvanizing reason for everyone to log in (like a surprise attack on a hub system).
B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky.
C) You obviously have never deployed somewhere far away in Null. It is tedious as hell, even with jump drives, jump bridges, and the like. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
339
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Power projection is a serious problem in nullsec (and lowsec, I guess). However, on the other hand, you don't want to make it so difficult to get at each other that people never fight, so there's no easy fix. Hopefully it's somewhere on the list of things to fix, and they get to it eventually.
That said, the majority of your post is moronic bile spewed by someone with obvious mental health issues. |
|
Polly Oxford
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote: I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes.
Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long.
Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now.
A) 1000 man blobs don't just happen, they take planning or a galvanizing reason for everyone to log in (like a surprise attack on a hub system). B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky. C) You obviously have never deployed somewhere far away in Null. It is tedious as hell, even with jump drives, jump bridges, and the like.
Where as traveling in a non-capital ship is very safe.
However, if making jumping safer makes you happy enough to lower the STUPID GAME BREAKING SPEED, then by all means, it should be made safer.
Non-system safe spots for jump drives, why not? |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Power projection is a serious problem in nullsec (and lowsec, I guess). However, on the other hand, you don't want to make it so difficult to get at each other that people never fight, so there's no easy fix. Hopefully it's somewhere on the list of things to fix, and they get to it eventually.
That said, the majority of your post is moronic bile spewed by someone with obvious mental health issues.
If you mean by that "power projection killed lowsec" then yes. It is a "problem". |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jessie, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and should just stop. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Jessie, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and should just stop.
Because there isn't a module/ship that currently exists capable of making jump drive safe spots outside of a system?
Well, that is rather easily fixed, isn't it?
"Space Anomaly Scanner" locates a "space distortion" in deep space off of a system. The exact location is randomly generated and is unique to the pilot-system combination. But it is VERY VERY deep. Like 1000 AU or something. Cyno's activated there are undetectable in system. Simply set the radius a Cyno can be detected to 500 AU or something. It's "deadspace" and you can't use warp drives there. Again, make ALL space say 500 AU or more from the sun "deadspace". Have warp drive check "distance from sun" before activating. It's one line of code. |
Doctor Grugon
GRUMPS RESEARCH TEAM Army of Dark Shadows
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Interesting idea. How would a ship enter from another system that's not always in the same location so that location would not get camped? Any standard entry point into a system would get camped. The you have the station campers, but we already have them too sometimes.
If the only way to get from system to system is with a cyno then new players would be at an even more significant disadvantage than they are now.
I like the idea of not needing gates. Are you standing where you should be? |
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Contagion wrote:I completely agree. I've been in Eve since beta and 0.0 used to be much more exciting because to get your goods out you had to launch a convoy and protect it, and fly your goods out. Not a single jump, or perhaps 2 and your safely in high-sec.
Jump drives have ruined 0.0
These days you would need a blob-escort and moving goods out of nullsec will end up to an operation impossible. Final result is: goods are stucked in nullsec, players with real life unsub due to lack of time for a stupid logistics overkill in a game what should bring fun and not work. |
Son IamaDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Eve is approximately 100 light years across total. For a Dreadnaught/Capital fleet of a thousand to cross this distance would take less than 11 jumps.
To cross from one end of Eve to the other.
Now, I am sure there are a few limiting factors like capacitor recharge, system loading time, and other things. But it is possible to go from one end of Eve to the other in less time than it takes a frigate to make 15 jumps and cross a part.. a PART... of High Sec.
Needless to say, this is broken fast.
It also adds risk/reward by allowing capital fleets to bypass all choke points, paths, and appear where-ever they want in their destination system.
But it also is a great game mechanic because it "scales well". And by that I mean it grow linearly in power with the number of users. That is it is approximately 10 times more powerful for a 100 person alliance than a 10. Why?
Because the number of places you can go it dependent on Cyno alts in the system or near the system. More players, more logged out cyno alts EVERYWHER. And it only takes one to go to a system.
This is why that Goon FC had his meltdown in Jita. Yes yes he is a lousy stupid player with no sense. But he doesn't need sense when he can get himself in trouble anywhere in the galaxy except High Sec and scream "CYNO! CYNO!" and get a 100+ ship zerg to bail him out.
So, how many serious PvPers have quit when they realized that any Goon or PL important enough to be able to scream "CYNO CYNO!" anywhere except High Sec is effectively untouchable?
This is also why Goons hate High Sec. And wormhole space. Don't think they don't. The safe word doesn't work.
But really, that's the way it works in real life to. If you are the minion of a great power, you just shake your but at the locals and they have to put up with it.
Or they kill you and your government runs off.
But, thanks to the design of the jump drive, we can all enjoy 1,000 man blobs that can be in any non-high sec system in Eve in under 15 minutes.
And reasonably, any non-High sec system in under 10 minutes if they are at all properly positioned.
But that makes sense. I've never heard of Imperial Overstretch or "only controls the ground upon which they stand". Eve is simply trying to mimic ancient and modern warfare by allowing armies to travel anywhere instantly.
The ability to go anywhere instantly with the most powerful ships in the game is necessary from a game balance perspective.
So, how do you think Jump Drives should be nerfed to bring back the sanity? Tell us how you really feel about these jump drives. In fact, I'd like a 10 page write up about this subject matter. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
you just want to move us back to the stone age (eve 2003) and you just want to gank them all as you gate camp them. Too bad for you, this is never gonna happen. |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....
Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:you just want to move us back to the stone age (eve 2003) and you just want to gank them all as you gate camp them. Too bad for you, this is never gonna happen. We have an FC that adores gate-camping action. You don't want to jump into his hellcamp (now with added bubbles). Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
905
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Luv to cyno. Haet to jump gate and align repeatedly to next gate. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Iamien
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change.
Because the range limitations of jump fuel(cost) and the reliance on cynos(quality) don't balance the time bonus. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Iamien wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change. Because the range limitations of jump fuel(cost) and the reliance on cynos(quality) don't balance the time bonus. Jumping through gates costs core....
I don't really know how much you can argue about the need for someone to have a cyno on their ship or a cyno alt though.. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
642
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
See, the problem isn't the blob and jump drives. There is none really, trust me.
The problem is you and the fact that you let your defense stagnate so your little Sov-Fortress of Solitude let a pest of a little cyno frig get passed you and then it brought in more vermin. That is your problem, your inability to defend your home from vermin. You are in fact the creator of your own demise, so perhaps instead of bitching how someone figured out how to use game mechanics to their advantage you need to figure out how to use the game mechanics to your advantage.
Want an amazing example of how to use game mechanics of how they existed and to win with them? Titan XL gun tracking, fitting mostly tracking mods, using tackle ships and lol-targeting lasers against the fact the other guy never brought titans. Amazing huh, adapting that mechanic of a massive ship that couldn't track on its own but using fleet tackle and then putting those massive amounts of titans in big large fleets. The other guy, had his chance to stop the titans from being built (that was their first mistake, not taking them out of action during construction), then they continued to use the time honored tradition of massive numbers of blob battleships, why the other guy cut down on the blob and just brought a force multiplier of titans that did the job just as well.
But as usual, the whiners couldn't cope of dealing with titan XL guns and would not admit that it was their fault for not adapting to the new fleet doctrine of EVE. Really, the best counter to a Titan XL gun is certainly not flying another battleship, but hopping into a cap ship. CCP had to dumb down titans for the whiners since they couldn't cope that their battleship tanks failed, but those whiners are the same dudes who say that hulk pilots need to cope with getting ganked by Titans destroyers by not flying battleships against Titans fitting tanks. (<-- me pointing out the fact that some people can't handle something but the same thing no longer applies to them when they tell hulk pilots how to handle the problem. Funny that)
Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
905
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm just not a fan of; log in, press button, receive pvp. I feel more effort should be involved. This is not supposed to be WoT or CoD you know.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Actually, if supercapitals could take gates then cynojamming wouldn't be such a massive advantage to the defender...
This would be troublesome because we here at the CFC have no way to defending against an enemy supercapital feet at all. Imagine if they could just gate jump right into VFK, the horror! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change.
I don't want to play EVE for a living...
|
Mersault
Blue Nine Industries
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
You have summed up in your OP what I truly hate about where this game is.
Oh I remember when,
oh I had such fun times when,
oh wasn't it great when ,
you are talking out of your ASS if you think with jump drives and cyno's only, no bridges, a cap fleet can travel across EvE in the same time a Frigate does 15 jumps ?
Oh is this with no warp to 0 and no bookmarks just like 'when'
What a ******* load of of useless **** drivel
You have summed up in your OP what I truly hate about where this game is.
it is you and people like you.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
Iamien wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change. Because the range limitations of jump fuel(cost) and the reliance on cynos(quality) don't balance the time bonus. Would seem like the quality comes out even or better when considering the alternative of using gates as not only do you not need scouts, but also, in the case of convoys, don't need escorts. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mersault wrote:You have summed up in your OP what I truly hate about where this game is.
Oh I remember when,
oh I had such fun times when,
oh wasn't it great when ,
you are talking out of your ASS if you think with jump drives and cyno's only, no bridges, a cap fleet can travel across EvE in the same time a Frigate does 15 jumps ?
Oh is this with no warp to 0 and no bookmarks just like 'when'
What a ******* load of of useless **** drivel
You have summed up in your OP what I truly hate about where this game is.
it is you and people like you.
Ah bravo good poster. Though some of us would have liked to mess around and troll the OP more, I guess you don't have time for such nonsense. +1
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I'm just not a fan of; log in, press button, receive pvp. I feel more effort should be involved. This is not supposed to be WoT or CoD you know.
There's still enough time killing effort in EVE. IMO too much effort what make EVE not a game. EVE is work. Nerds love it. People with a serious RL might leave it if things are getting too close to RL bullshit. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1392
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:See, the problem isn't the blob and jump drives. There is none really, trust me.
The problem is you and the fact that you let your defense stagnate so your little Sov-Fortress of Solitude let a pest of a little cyno frig get passed you and then it brought in more vermin. That is your problem, your inability to defend your home from vermin. You are in fact the creator of your own demise, so perhaps instead of bitching how someone figured out how to use game mechanics to their advantage you need to figure out how to use the game mechanics to your advantage.
Want an amazing example of how to use game mechanics of how they existed and to win with them? Titan XL gun tracking, fitting mostly tracking mods, using tackle ships and lol-targeting lasers against the fact the other guy never brought titans. Amazing huh, adapting that mechanic of a massive ship that couldn't track on its own but using fleet tackle and then putting those massive amounts of titans in big large fleets. The other guy, had his chance to stop the titans from being built (that was their first mistake, not taking them out of action during construction), then they continued to use the time honored tradition of massive numbers of blob battleships, why the other guy cut down on the blob and just brought a force multiplier of titans that did the job just as well.
But as usual, the whiners couldn't cope of dealing with titan XL guns and would not admit that it was their fault for not adapting to the new fleet doctrine of EVE. Really, the best counter to a Titan XL gun is certainly not flying another battleship, but hopping into a cap ship. CCP had to dumb down titans for the whiners since they couldn't cope that their battleship tanks failed, but those whiners are the same dudes who say that hulk pilots need to cope with getting ganked by Titans destroyers by not flying battleships against Titans fitting tanks. (<-- me pointing out the fact that some people can't handle something but the same thing no longer applies to them when they tell hulk pilots how to handle the problem. Funny that)
Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself.
Raiden alt detected. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1392
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote: Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only welcome new players, but celebrate them. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote: Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only welcome new players, but celebrate them. Being hazed by Raiden. titans in your Rifter can be pretty traumatic, I agree.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1445
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote: Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only welcome new players, but celebrate them.
Yes, as targets or cannon fodder.
I would love to dial in a warp to one one of "your" systems and steal from you.
In fact I have already done it, but using wormholes.
You see, not all PVP is ending up on someone's killboard. I have done many missions - not the sort given by agents - into null with the objective of getting what I want without hostile contact, and that I have used a ship in service since the spring of 2009 is proof of this accomplishment. I use a special skill that you can't queue up in the game nor train to level 5. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
908
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote: Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only hate new players, but scam them.
FYP
I think all of these issues is the light switch syndrome. Hardly anywhere in between.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote: Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only hate new players, but scam them. FYP I think all of these issues is the light switch syndrome. Hardly anywhere in between. Aww, did someone get scammed out of their shiny mining osprey? Who? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1392
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote: Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only hate new players, but scam them. FYP I think all of these issues is the light switch syndrome. Hardly anywhere in between.
Only the idiots who don't follow the application procedure. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
343
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself.
This ~eleet titan peeveepee~ theory got thrown out the window when goons killed an erebus with gyrostabs; not that it wasn't obviously horseshit in the first place, it just become undeniably transparent after that hilarious debacle.
|
Basher Razbaz
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
if you dont like it dont play you ******* cry babies
null sec isnt worth fighting over anymore anyways , population of eve tanked and with new mmos coming out i wouldnt worry about getting your convoys killed , im sure you arent hauling the old fashion way you are probably jumping it out
hell your jump freighter is probably named hypocrit
null sec is so safe now i autopilot 10+ jumps sometimes in a shuttle and watch sex videos
get a life you bunch of losers |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Aqriue wrote:Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself. This ~eleet titan peeveepee~ theory got thrown out the window when goons killed an erebus with gyrostabs; not that it wasn't obviously horseshit in the first place, it just become undeniably transparent after that hilarious debacle. Well it doesn't matter when you're shooting subcaps I think. Still, pretty damn hilarious.
Besides I think the people in our mystical titan fleet now know to not fit the wrong damage mods to their titans Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
726
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm tired of beating this horse so I will refrain...
That said, yah teleportation destroyed the concept of logistics. To the guy up there saying nullsec isn't worth fighting for anymore... jump drives are a big factor in why that is. I haven't seen anything credible from CCP with regards to dealing with that since the small holding etc... discussions on the old forums though. Don't know what to tell ya.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1446
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
Basher Razbaz wrote:if you dont like it dont play you ******* cry babies
null sec isnt worth fighting over anymore anyways , population of eve tanked and with new mmos coming out i wouldnt worry about getting your convoys killed , im sure you arent hauling the old fashion way you are probably jumping it out
hell your jump freighter is probably named hypocrit
null sec is so safe now i autopilot 10+ jumps sometimes in a shuttle and watch sex videos
get a life you bunch of losers
I feel so browbeaten yet I enjoyed it. |
Shian Yang
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Greetings capsuleer,
I did a quick query against mapSolarSystems using [security] with a distinct count of [solarsystemid]. I have probably done this wrong as this is my first foray into the database, but from what I see it would appear there are:
- 6000+ NULL security systems
- ~820 low security systems
- ~1100 high security systems
Considering the vast distances to be traversed would it not be sensible to use Jump Drive technology? It is interesting to read Alain E Topher's words on interstellar travel, penned in YC 105.
Regards,
Shian Yang |
Freggan
Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations Surely You're Joking
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:54:00 -
[47] - Quote
As far as I can tell eve and its mechanics have a lot to do with risk vs rewards and also very importantly interest level vs difficulty level. Most people may realize some things are purposely made more difficult to make sure the people who are most interested will be the ones with the most access. Everything in this game is about interest level vs difficulty e.g.if its not interesting you will give up, if its too difficult you will leave it alone eventually or even inspire you to get better. |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash.... Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual. If you have half a clue it's trivially easy to get around camps. |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky.
And all of that could be resolved with a revision to the current movement mechanics.
Imagine instead of the dozens to hundreds of man hours setting up to cross the entirety of the universe, minutes to a perhaps a dozen man hours to the big fight, because no one is going that far and the fights are there. What's the point of the huge napfest except to preserve that ginormous logistical chain?
Smaller, more frequent and more involving fights. A more open 0.0. More targets.
What's not to like?
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1396
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:03:00 -
[50] - Quote
Malphilos wrote: And all of that could be resolved with a revision to the current movement mechanics.
Imagine instead of the dozens to hundreds of man hours setting up to cross the entirety of the universe, minutes to a perhaps a dozen man hours to the big fight, because no one is going that far and the fights are there. What's the point of the huge napfest except to preserve that ginormous logistical chain?
Smaller, more frequent and more involving fights. A more open 0.0. More targets.
What's not to like?
The CFC isn't all blue to each other because we're afraid of another entity taking our space. We're allies because we (usually) get along fantastically. We're a big dysfunctional family, even when we shoot each other its friendly. And we shoot each other a lot. FA, I'm lookin' at you. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
343
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
Again, people talking about things they don't know.
Both victorious coalitions from the last "great war" which just ended are in the process of internal resets, and the losing coalition has already cannibalized itself gloriously.
I think this whole perception of a "napfest" is coming from burn jita and hulkageddon. These are not some last resort entertainment for a deathly bored nullsec, they are aimed at ******* with hisec purely for the sake of ******* with hisec.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1446
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:14:00 -
[52] - Quote
Joran Dravius wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash.... Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual. If you have half a clue it's trivially easy to get around camps.
Yeah yeah yeah the usual stuff. Every time someone posts tips I have not seen before, I load up the disposable alt and try them and they work 70 to 80 percent of the time against the majority of campers who are quite dumb. The best campers will still get you, and economically, getting killed 20-30 percent of the time is usually not feasible UNLESS you are cannon fodder or renter in applicable member corporation.
I have more than half a clue, thanks.
My point about dialed in warp for all ships is that it helps break out beyond the wall. If any group could pinpoint any system they wanted to go to, for any reason, be it to get at resources or pad their killboards, they can do this better by not having to deal with gank pipelines for hours just to get blobbed in the end. I've done the lowsec live event incursions and some Eve Radio roams and it feels like a trip to Disney waiting in line for an hour for a 2 minute ride.
Naturally, the complaint out of 0.0 is about risk averse carebears and such, or lack of activity, but the present gate mechanic coupled with the "kill everything that moves" mentality is going to make those who like the abuse run out of ISK so even if they don't mind the score of methods to move about and getting killed, ending up in a rookie ship with no ISK will eventually have them back in high sec to earn a few bucks or in the high sec incursion/mission/market alt they need to accomodate stupid ship loss.
The latter part, "stupid ship loss" is a direct result of gate mechanics and "blob and get blobbed" tactics that also drive people back into high sec when they run out of ISK - something that is usually not the case for well run alliances that replace ships better - but this is not a feature that many players enjoy (admittedly Goons take care of their own very well).
Using wormholes is actually more tedious than the score of methods of travel in 0.0. A WH bridge can get you from 0.0 to empire in 10 minutes, or it can take a week. But using WH bridging keeps my ships in one peice whereby with the disposable alt, using a cheapy frig, can last a few days using the best methods but still it's all over when that bubble is right on top of the gate and there are a half dozen T2 ships waiting and being the first customer stat-wise didn't show a red system for ship kills - and that's because yes, the campers had nothing better to do but wait all day for one frigate.
For that reason, point to point dialed in warp will be good for everybody. While I can avoid camps and not have to suffer the loss of being caught in them, it's obvious that those sitting in the camps are also suffering from these crappy mechanics.
It's time for gates, or the reliance on them, to go. A good time will be had by all.
(Remove local too and see some sparks fly). |
Internet Lawyer Steve
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:14:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Now, I am sure there are a few limiting factors like capacitor recharge, system loading time, and other things. But it is possible to go from one end of Eve to the other in less time than it takes a frigate to make 15 jumps and cross a part.. a PART... of High Sec.
Internet Lawyer Steve on the scene...
You are forgetting some stuff here. You would have to refuel several times during the trip. With 1000 people jumping you will run in to TiDi which in return would slow you down even more. I would suggest you actually try doing that with 1000 people and try to keep everyone logged in and not dropping every jump. Also your cap recharge time is a bit off. It would take longer due to 1000 people not having the exact skill set. Not to mention all the time it would take to move the cynos in to position.
In closing a frigate can make those 15 jumps before you even get to your second mid point.
Internet Lawyer Steve and Associates,
Bringing Justice to New Eden, One post at a time... |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
160
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:19:00 -
[54] - Quote
Shian Yang wrote:I did a quick query against mapSolarSystems using [security] with a distinct count of [solarsystemid]. I have probably done this wrong as this is my first foray into the database, but from what I see it would appear there are:
- 6000+ NULL security systems
- ~820 low security systems
- ~1100 high security systems
Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count. +1 in local |
Kriegman
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
Wait supercaps cant go through gates? WTF CCP!!! I been sitting in Aeon in EC- on Torrinos gate and mashing the damn jump button thinking its just a tidi bug. |
Kieron VonDeux
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
There was a thread like this about a year or two ago and it seemed the Devs knew that how fast large organizations can move from one side of the map to the other, power projection, was far too imbalanced, but they didn't seem brave enough to truly fix the problem because it would affect some ot their most loyal customers in a negative way.
You can see that again in this thread. Large organizations won't like it because it reduces the size of their "play area." But I agree that it would probably be best for the health of the game in the long run.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1396
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote: Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count.
Nullsec is significantly larger than highsec. It also isn't all clustered together, but instead is a giant ring around highsec with many, many chokepoints.
Kieron VonDeux wrote:There was a thread like this about a year or two ago and it seemed the Devs knew that how fast large organizations can move from one side of the map to the other, power projection, was far too imbalanced, but they didn't seem brave enough to truly fix the problem because it would affect some ot their most loyal customers in a negative way.
You can see that again in this thread. Large organizations won't like it because it reduces the size of their "play area." But I agree that it would probably be best for the health of the game in the long run.
Making it a royal pain in the ass to be able to interact with other players in nullsec is not good for the health of the game.
This is a terrible idea. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Shian Yang
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count.
Greetings capsuleer Hobb,
Do you know the relevant joins? From what I can see there might be approximately 2600 odd of them, but that would be a naive assumption. Even if it is though, the number of low and null-sec systems outnumber high-sec by a reasonable percentage.
Regards,
Shian Yang |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:41:00 -
[59] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote: Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only hate new players, but scam them. FYP I think all of these issues is the light switch syndrome. Hardly anywhere in between. Aww, did someone get scammed out of their shiny mining osprey? Who?
Anytime anyone tries to have a grown up discussion about some of the issues behind the low rate of conversion from new player to PvP Pixel Macho Man shows up |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1446
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Karl Hobb wrote: Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count.
Nullsec is significantly larger than highsec. It also isn't all clustered together, but instead is a giant ring around highsec with many, many chokepoints. Kieron VonDeux wrote:There was a thread like this about a year or two ago and it seemed the Devs knew that how fast large organizations can move from one side of the map to the other, power projection, was far too imbalanced, but they didn't seem brave enough to truly fix the problem because it would affect some ot their most loyal customers in a negative way.
You can see that again in this thread. Large organizations won't like it because it reduces the size of their "play area." But I agree that it would probably be best for the health of the game in the long run.
Making it a royal pain in the ass to be able to interact with other players in nullsec is not good for the health of the game. This is a terrible idea.
Lost of NAP out there though. Is that really a lot of interaction? As I recall, this game is much touted as one where people fight each other. |
|
Kieron VonDeux
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:47:00 -
[61] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote:Anytime anyone tries to have a grown up discussion about some of the issues behind the low rate of conversion from new player to PvP Pixel Macho Man shows up
Kind of like the unwelcome gnats at an evening barbeque. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:35:00 -
[62] - Quote
Misunderstood Genius wrote:Contagion wrote:I completely agree. I've been in Eve since beta and 0.0 used to be much more exciting because to get your goods out you had to launch a convoy and protect it, and fly your goods out. Not a single jump, or perhaps 2 and your safely in high-sec.
Jump drives have ruined 0.0 These days you would need a blob-escort and moving goods out of nullsec will end up for many players to an operation impossible because of beeing blob-camped on the routes all the time. Final result is: goods are stucked in nullsec, players with real life unsub due to lack of time for a stupid logistics overkill in a game what should bring fun and not just more work.
The thing some people don't realize is the absurd speed of Jump Drive travel is what makes blobs of this size possible.
If the blobs were forced to move across the map at anything like a reasonable speed... say one hour to cross the whole map.... then the blobs would spend to much time moving from blob-target to blob-target.
Then KM starvation leads to boredom leads to blob fracturing or shrinking in size.
Slower Jump Drive travel speed=Smaller blobs.
Only because the Blob-saur is faster than than the fastest little frigate-mouse allows it to maintain it's ponderous size without KM starvation. |
ELECTR0FREAK
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:37:00 -
[63] - Quote
It's likely been mentioned already, but it looks like the OP has missed one minor detail... in order to jump to a location, a fleet member already has to be there. Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
Ken Cook
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
Expected OP to be in Evi Uni |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
633
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Misunderstood Genius wrote:Contagion wrote:I completely agree. I've been in Eve since beta and 0.0 used to be much more exciting because to get your goods out you had to launch a convoy and protect it, and fly your goods out. Not a single jump, or perhaps 2 and your safely in high-sec.
Jump drives have ruined 0.0 These days you would need a blob-escort and moving goods out of nullsec will end up for many players to an operation impossible because of beeing blob-camped on the routes all the time. Final result is: goods are stucked in nullsec, players with real life unsub due to lack of time for a stupid logistics overkill in a game what should bring fun and not just more work. The thing some people don't realize is the absurd speed of Jump Drive travel is what makes blobs of this size possible. If the blobs were forced to move across the map at anything like a reasonable speed... say one hour to cross the whole map.... then the blobs would spend to much time moving from blob-target to blob-target. Then KM starvation leads to boredom leads to blob fracturing or shrinking in size. Slower Jump Drive travel speed=Smaller blobs. Only because the Blob-saur is faster than than the fastest little frigate-mouse allows it to maintain it's ponderous size without KM starvation. Is this about jump drives or jump bridges?
You seem to imagine that the supercapital fleets wouldn't still blob, just really slowly make their way from one structureshoot to the next. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Shian Yang
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:41:00 -
[66] - Quote
ELECTR0FREAK wrote:It's likely been mentioned already, but it looks like the OP has missed one minor detail... in order to jump to a location, a fleet member already has to be there.
Greetings capsuleer,
*shake shake shake*
It would seem the answer is "maybe".
Regards,
Shian Yang |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
ELECTR0FREAK wrote:It's likely been mentioned already, but it looks like the OP has missed one minor detail... in order to jump to a location, a fleet member already has to be there.
It's called a logged out alt. Each account can have up to three of them.
Is the poster trying to tell me "it would take 4 Alt accounts to allow a 200 capital ship fleet to cross the whole of Eve in less than 15 minutes"?
Well. Four accounts. That's quite a lot. You do have a point there. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
717
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:43:00 -
[68] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
Get rid of gates and get rid of cynos. Jump bridges are ok, so long as sov is a part of it. However maintaining map adjacent systems, that is, one must jump to a currently connected system, might be in order, so that there isn't any "hopping over", though not for bridges.
All of this would require a rework of the scanner. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
633
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:44:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ok, hurry and tell CCP to do this. Oh and delete Cynojammers while you're at it, since we don't need them anymore.
Off you go to the suggestions forum ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Is this about jump drives or jump bridges?
You seem to imagine that the supercapital fleets wouldn't still blob, just really slowly make their way from one structureshoot to the next.
First, blobs would still exist but they would be smaller.
Second, blobs couldn't arrive in time to help one of you more stupid FC's if he and his buddy decided to attack a Low Sec pirate corp of tengus and scimitars with only his carrier and his buddies dread. He would then be killed and the blob would arrive in time to recover his horribly mutilated corpse.
This teaching moment would lead him to making less of a loudmouth *ss of himself on the forums and thus improve the quality of live for everyone. |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
405
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:28:00 -
[71] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote: I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes.
Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long.
Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now.
A) 1000 man blobs don't just happen, they take planning or a galvanizing reason for everyone to log in (like a surprise attack on a hub system). B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky. C) You obviously have never deployed somewhere far away in Null. It is tedious as hell, even with jump drives, jump bridges, and the like.
I'm willing to bet he's never deployed ANYWHERE in null. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:...not spend multiple days moving assets for one day's worth of fun.
You mean like in Highsec? Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438 |
ELECTR0FREAK
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:32:00 -
[73] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:ELECTR0FREAK wrote:It's likely been mentioned already, but it looks like the OP has missed one minor detail... in order to jump to a location, a fleet member already has to be there. It's called a logged out alt. Each account can have up to three of them. Is the poster trying to tell me "it would take 4 Alt accounts to allow a 200 capital ship fleet to cross the whole of Eve in less than 15 minutes"? Well. Four accounts. That's quite a lot. You do have a point there.
No, I'm saying someone has to put them there (whether its yourself or someone else it doesn't matter), and thus you can't just jump anywhere you want in EVE without sending a regular ship there first. Which kinda defeats the majority of your argument. Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
405
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:40:00 -
[74] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Is this about jump drives or jump bridges?
You seem to imagine that the supercapital fleets wouldn't still blob, just really slowly make their way from one structureshoot to the next.
First, blobs would still exist but they would be smaller. Second, blobs couldn't arrive in time to help one of you more stupid FC's if he and his buddy decided to attack a Low Sec pirate corp of tengus and basilisks with only his carrier and his buddies dread. He would then be killed and the blob would arrive in time to recover his horribly mutilated corpse. This teaching moment would lead him to making less of a loudmouth *ss of himself on the forums and thus improve the quality of live for everyone.
What business does an NPC corp player have dictating anything about caps and supers? It's not like he can use them in high-sec. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
637
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:What business does an NPC corp player have dictating anything about caps and supers? It's not like he can use them in high-sec. Detect a forums alt ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
405
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:49:00 -
[76] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:What business does an NPC corp player have dictating anything about caps and supers? It's not like he can use them in high-sec. Detect a forums alt ~~
So I just have to wonder where this person lives that Jump Drives would be cause so much impotent frustration. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:56:00 -
[77] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Is this about jump drives or jump bridges?
You seem to imagine that the supercapital fleets wouldn't still blob, just really slowly make their way from one structureshoot to the next.
First, blobs would still exist but they would be smaller. Second, blobs couldn't arrive in time to help one of you more stupid FC's if he and his buddy decided to attack a Low Sec pirate corp of tengus and basilisks with only his carrier and his buddies dread. He would then be killed and the blob would arrive in time to recover his horribly mutilated corpse. This teaching moment would lead him to making less of a loudmouth *ss of himself on the forums and thus improve the quality of live for everyone. What business does an NPC corp player have dictating anything about caps and supers? It's not like he can use them in high-sec.
What place do you have mouthing off non-stop about high-sec?
You goons don't even understand basic aggression mechanics in high-sec.
That was boringly easy. Maybe that's because, Fera, you are a boring person. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:58:00 -
[78] - Quote
ELECTR0FREAK wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:ELECTR0FREAK wrote:It's likely been mentioned already, but it looks like the OP has missed one minor detail... in order to jump to a location, a fleet member already has to be there. It's called a logged out alt. Each account can have up to three of them. Is the poster trying to tell me "it would take 4 Alt accounts to allow a 200 capital ship fleet to cross the whole of Eve in less than 15 minutes"? Well. Four accounts. That's quite a lot. You do have a point there. No, I'm saying someone has to put them there (whether its yourself or someone else it doesn't matter), and thus you can't just jump anywhere you want in EVE without sending a regular ship there first. Which kinda defeats the majority of your argument.
It was actually a part of my argument. Larger corps have more logged out cyno alts in all sorts of places which make cyno'ing even more powerful for them than smaller corps. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
406
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:02:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Is this about jump drives or jump bridges?
You seem to imagine that the supercapital fleets wouldn't still blob, just really slowly make their way from one structureshoot to the next.
First, blobs would still exist but they would be smaller. Second, blobs couldn't arrive in time to help one of you more stupid FC's if he and his buddy decided to attack a Low Sec pirate corp of tengus and basilisks with only his carrier and his buddies dread. He would then be killed and the blob would arrive in time to recover his horribly mutilated corpse. This teaching moment would lead him to making less of a loudmouth *ss of himself on the forums and thus improve the quality of live for everyone. What business does an NPC corp player have dictating anything about caps and supers? It's not like he can use them in high-sec. What place do you have mouthing off non-stop about high-sec? You goons don't even understand basic aggression mechanics in high-sec. That was boringly easy. Maybe that's because, Davion, you are a boring person.
So you can't answer the question? My question has nothing to do with high sec mechanics and has everything to do with nullsec mechanics. So where are you from Jessie-A? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:06:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: So you can't answer the question? My question has nothing to do with high sec mechanics and has everything to do with nullsec mechanics. So where are you from Jessie-A?
Somewhere Locator agents will never find me. |
|
ELECTR0FREAK
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:06:00 -
[81] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:ELECTR0FREAK wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:ELECTR0FREAK wrote:It's likely been mentioned already, but it looks like the OP has missed one minor detail... in order to jump to a location, a fleet member already has to be there. It's called a logged out alt. Each account can have up to three of them. Is the poster trying to tell me "it would take 4 Alt accounts to allow a 200 capital ship fleet to cross the whole of Eve in less than 15 minutes"? Well. Four accounts. That's quite a lot. You do have a point there. No, I'm saying someone has to put them there (whether its yourself or someone else it doesn't matter), and thus you can't just jump anywhere you want in EVE without sending a regular ship there first. Which kinda defeats the majority of your argument. It was actually a part of my argument. Larger corps have more logged out cyno alts in all sorts of places which make cyno'ing even more powerful for them than smaller corps.
By your own argument, it would take 4 alt accounts...
Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
RAP ACTION HERO
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:07:00 -
[82] - Quote
ok let's have bubbles in hisec too |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:08:00 -
[83] - Quote
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:ok let's have bubbles in hisec too
Ah???? Sure? Pretty sure warp disruption is aggression though.
If it makes you happy, it can't be so BAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDD. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
877
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
lol NPC corp posters weigh in on nullsec mechanics again |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
638
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:20:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:lol NPC corp posters weigh in on nullsec mechanics again NPC corps seem to have a damn lot of experienced veterans in just about everything. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Sendo Jarix
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:19:00 -
[86] - Quote
What an astonishing amount of knowledge on nullsec travel this NPC alt has, maybe we should recruit it since we must be doing something wrong because we can't travel anywhere near the speed being claimed. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:41:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sendo Jarix wrote:What an astonishing amount of knowledge on nullsec travel this NPC alt has, maybe we should recruit it since we must be doing something wrong because we can't travel anywhere near the speed being claimed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2U0dTlU-QUg
It seems the moron PL Titan pilot was near immediately reinforced.
You could say "but they were informed ahead of time".
But that was only because the Militia felt the need to bring 100+ ship cause they knew moron would be near instantly reinforced no matter what.
You know what would be funny? If they really hadn't been informed and they still managed to respond that fast!
So yeah, it is like that liar.
And you are a liar. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
419
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:42:00 -
[88] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Sendo Jarix wrote:What an astonishing amount of knowledge on nullsec travel this NPC alt has, maybe we should recruit it since we must be doing something wrong because we can't travel anywhere near the speed being claimed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2U0dTlU-QUgIt seems the moron PL Titan pilot was near immediately reinforced. You could say "but they were informed ahead of time". But that was only because the Militia felt the need to bring 100+ ship cause they knew moron would be near instantly reinforced no matter what. So yeah, it is like that liar. And you are a liar.
What are you saying? Titans don't get reinforced. Towers and structures get reinforced. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Kieron VonDeux
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:42:00 -
[89] - Quote
The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated.
Classic.
|
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Sendo Jarix wrote:What an astonishing amount of knowledge on nullsec travel this NPC alt has, maybe we should recruit it since we must be doing something wrong because we can't travel anywhere near the speed being claimed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2U0dTlU-QUgIt seems the moron PL Titan pilot was near immediately reinforced. You could say "but they were informed ahead of time". But that was only because the Militia felt the need to bring 100+ ship cause they knew moron would be near instantly reinforced no matter what. So yeah, it is like that liar. And you are a liar. What are you saying? Titans don't get reinforced. Towers and structures get reinforced.
His PL buddies REINFORCED him. |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
419
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:44:00 -
[91] - Quote
Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic.
This doesn't make sense. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
419
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:45:00 -
[92] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Sendo Jarix wrote:What an astonishing amount of knowledge on nullsec travel this NPC alt has, maybe we should recruit it since we must be doing something wrong because we can't travel anywhere near the speed being claimed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2U0dTlU-QUgIt seems the moron PL Titan pilot was near immediately reinforced. You could say "but they were informed ahead of time". But that was only because the Militia felt the need to bring 100+ ship cause they knew moron would be near instantly reinforced no matter what. So yeah, it is like that liar. And you are a liar. What are you saying? Titans don't get reinforced. Towers and structures get reinforced. His PL buddies REINFORCED him.
Okay, so what does this have to do with your argument, then?
Look, jump drives have been a part of eve for a very long time now, they aren't getting removed, so why even bother complaining about it? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:47:00 -
[93] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense.
He means we were always BoB. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
419
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:48:00 -
[94] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense. He means we were always BoB.
We were? My god... Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
858
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:48:00 -
[95] - Quote
Polly Oxford wrote:ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand.
+1. This is as bad as the drooling pubbies on CSM5 that thought removing Jump Bridges would be a bright idea. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:50:00 -
[96] - Quote
Xython wrote:Polly Oxford wrote:ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. +1. This is as bad as the drooling pubbies on CSM5 that thought removing Jump Bridges would be a bright idea.
Baby need his Cyno blankie? Nasty pubbies scare baby without a 1000 ship blob to bail his baby ass out anywhere in low sec? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:51:00 -
[97] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Polly Oxford wrote:ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. +1. This is as bad as the drooling pubbies on CSM5 that thought removing Jump Bridges would be a bright idea. Baby need his Cyno blankie? Nasty pubbies scare baby without a 1000 ship blob to bail his baby ass out anywhere in low sec? Why didn't we travel as a 1000 ship blob?
Oh right. Traffic control and TiDi. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:52:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense. He means we were always BoB. We were? My god... Yes, Apparently The Mittani is LITERALLY SirMolle. We're all his pets ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:53:00 -
[99] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense. He means we were always BoB.
Is there any real PvP player that could tolerate a moron with a Titan sitting all alone in a system for days on end and still being almost unkillable cause "CYNO! CYNO!"
Cause that's what he was doing. Sitting totally exposed but for the CYNO blankie that keeps him warm no matter how fail his fit, no matter how predictable his patterns, no matter how stupid his gameplay, and no matter that he was jumped by 100+ guys at once.
Any other game, ANY other game he would have insta-splatted. And nobody would think anything of it except, like, 100 guys was way over-kill dude. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:53:00 -
[100] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense. He means we were always BoB. We were? My god... Yes, Apparently The Mittani is LITERALLY SirMolle. We're all his pets ~~
Wait, I thought we were all his alts? Which is it? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
858
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:54:00 -
[101] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Polly Oxford wrote:ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. +1. This is as bad as the drooling pubbies on CSM5 that thought removing Jump Bridges would be a bright idea. Baby need his Cyno blankie? Nasty pubbies scare baby without a 1000 ship blob to bail his baby ass out anywhere in low sec?
What's that? You want to do what to my genitals? Dear lord man, calm yourself. This is a family friendly forum!
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:55:00 -
[102] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense. He means we were always BoB. Is there any real PvP player that could tolerate a moron with a Titan sitting all alone in a system for days on end and still being almost unkillable cause "CYNO! CYNO!" Cause that's what he was doing. Sitting totally exposed but for the CYNO blankie that keeps him warm no matter how fail his fit, no matter how predictable his patterns, no matter how stupid his gameplay, and no matter that he was jumped by 100+ guys at once. Any other game, ANY other game he would have insta-splatted. And nobody would think anything of it except, like, 100 guys was way over-kill dude.
The guy was sure lucky his friends were around to cyno to him. Was it a subcap fleet or a cap fleet? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:55:00 -
[103] - Quote
Xython wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Polly Oxford wrote:ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. +1. This is as bad as the drooling pubbies on CSM5 that thought removing Jump Bridges would be a bright idea. Baby need his Cyno blankie? Nasty pubbies scare baby without a 1000 ship blob to bail his baby ass out anywhere in low sec? What's that? You want to do what to my genitals? Dear lord man, calm yourself. This is a family friendly forum!
He wants your baby ass. I think our friend Jessie-A here needs to have a seat over there. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:56:00 -
[104] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Polly Oxford wrote:ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. +1. This is as bad as the drooling pubbies on CSM5 that thought removing Jump Bridges would be a bright idea. Baby need his Cyno blankie? Nasty pubbies scare baby without a 1000 ship blob to bail his baby ass out anywhere in low sec? Why didn't we travel as a 1000 ship blob? Oh right. Traffic control and TiDi.
ooooo.... you travel in +100 ship blobs not +1000 ship blobs. I am SOOOOO corrected and SOOOOO not caring. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:56:00 -
[105] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense. He means we were always BoB. Is there any real PvP player that could tolerate a moron with a Titan sitting all alone in a system for days on end and still being almost unkillable cause "CYNO! CYNO!" Cause that's what he was doing. Sitting totally exposed but for the CYNO blankie that keeps him warm no matter how fail his fit, no matter how predictable his patterns, no matter how stupid his gameplay, and no matter that he was jumped by 100+ guys at once. Any other game, ANY other game he would have insta-splatted. And nobody would think anything of it except, like, 100 guys was way over-kill dude. The guy was sure lucky his friends were around to cyno to him. Was it a subcap fleet or a cap fleet? Sounds like it was a trap. You did mean it was a 100+ supercapital fleet, right?
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4161
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:57:00 -
[106] - Quote
Jump drives are not a problem. The fact that any ship can light a cyno is. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
858
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:58:00 -
[107] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Polly Oxford wrote:ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. +1. This is as bad as the drooling pubbies on CSM5 that thought removing Jump Bridges would be a bright idea. Baby need his Cyno blankie? Nasty pubbies scare baby without a 1000 ship blob to bail his baby ass out anywhere in low sec? Why didn't we travel as a 1000 ship blob? Oh right. Traffic control and TiDi. ooooo.... you travel in +100 ship blobs not +1000 ship blobs. I am SOOOOO corrected and SOOOOO not caring.
And since you're a highsec sockpuppet alt from some chickenshit too cowardly to post under your main, you're also SOOOO Irrelevant. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4161
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:59:00 -
[108] - Quote
also lol you think that we have some kind of network of strategically placed titans to get a 1000 man fleet anywhere on the map within 10 minutes "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:00:00 -
[109] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Kieron VonDeux wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Goons have really become what they hated. Classic. This doesn't make sense. He means we were always BoB. Is there any real PvP player that could tolerate a moron with a Titan sitting all alone in a system for days on end and still being almost unkillable cause "CYNO! CYNO!" Cause that's what he was doing. Sitting totally exposed but for the CYNO blankie that keeps him warm no matter how fail his fit, no matter how predictable his patterns, no matter how stupid his gameplay, and no matter that he was jumped by 100+ guys at once. Any other game, ANY other game he would have insta-splatted. And nobody would think anything of it except, like, 100 guys was way over-kill dude. The guy was sure lucky his friends were around to cyno to him. Was it a subcap fleet or a cap fleet?
No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. It covers more than 10% of the entirety of Eve. In area. As in 10% of all of Eves star systems. Near the middle of the map, three jumps can reach about a third of all the star systems in Eve. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:02:00 -
[110] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. It covers more than 10% of the entirety of Eve. In area. As in 10% of all of Eves star systems. Near the middle of the map, three jumps can reach about a third of all the star systems in Eve.
Again, was it a subcap fleet or a capfleet? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
858
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:02:00 -
[111] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance.
Yes, assuming you have 11 cyno alts in place across... No wait, I don't even think it works then, because you'd have to move AROUND highsec.
Feel free to prove me wrong via a map of cyno destinations from point A to point B. Ideally the path should be circular, heading back to point A (we will then take the total number of jumps / 2 to calculate the distance "across" EVE). Oh, and it should have a drawing of a little sailboat on it.
I like sailboats. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:03:00 -
[112] - Quote
Andski wrote:also lol you think that we have some kind of network of strategically placed titans to get a 1000 man fleet anywhere on the map within 10 minutes
Well, what else would we be doing with our secret fleet of Titans? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:06:00 -
[113] - Quote
Xython wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. Yes, assuming you have 11 cyno alts in place across... No wait, I don't even think it works then, because you'd have to move AROUND highsec. Feel free to prove me wrong via a map of cyno destinations from point A to point B. Ideally the path should be circular, heading back to point A (we will then take the total number of jumps / 2 to calculate the distance "across" EVE). Oh, and it should have a drawing of a little sailboat on it. I like sailboats.
You don't care about facts. You can't be convinced of anything that is against your own interest.
Thus I am saved the time wasting of trying to convince you of anything. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:09:00 -
[114] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. It covers more than 10% of the entirety of Eve. In area. As in 10% of all of Eves star systems. Near the middle of the map, three jumps can reach about a third of all the star systems in Eve.
Again, was it a subcap fleet or a capfleet?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12761765
Killmail is extremely buggy but I see EIGHT PL titans just glancing at it. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4161
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:10:00 -
[115] - Quote
okay try moving a carrier those 11 jumps
don't ask me to bring you fuel though "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:11:00 -
[116] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. Yes, assuming you have 11 cyno alts in place across... No wait, I don't even think it works then, because you'd have to move AROUND highsec. Feel free to prove me wrong via a map of cyno destinations from point A to point B. Ideally the path should be circular, heading back to point A (we will then take the total number of jumps / 2 to calculate the distance "across" EVE). Oh, and it should have a drawing of a little sailboat on it. I like sailboats. You don't care about facts. You can't be convinced of anything that is against your own interest. Thus I am saved the time wasting of trying to convince you of anything.
No, he's right, you have to go around highsec. So it can't be 11 jumps from one end to the other.
Also, I see a defense you seem to use frequently. When someone actually brings out facts against your argument you just throw your hands up and accuse that person of not wanting to use facts, or not wanting to see your side of the argument, or some other similar thing.
But see, this kind of reasoning goes against what you yourself are saying against that person. In fact, you are projecting your own actions against this other person who is only trying to show you how you are mistaken. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:13:00 -
[117] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. It covers more than 10% of the entirety of Eve. In area. As in 10% of all of Eves star systems. Near the middle of the map, three jumps can reach about a third of all the star systems in Eve.
Again, was it a subcap fleet or a capfleet? http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12761765Killmail is extremely buggy but I see EIGHT PL titans just glancing at it.
Given that it lists PL players as both Hostile and friendly, I really don't think that killmail can be brought in as evidence. But i did see quite a few caps that were not associated with PL on there, too. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4161
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:13:00 -
[118] - Quote
also it is 11 jumps
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Nyx,554/QYZM-W:D4-2XN "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:16:00 -
[119] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. Yes, assuming you have 11 cyno alts in place across... No wait, I don't even think it works then, because you'd have to move AROUND highsec. Feel free to prove me wrong via a map of cyno destinations from point A to point B. Ideally the path should be circular, heading back to point A (we will then take the total number of jumps / 2 to calculate the distance "across" EVE). Oh, and it should have a drawing of a little sailboat on it. I like sailboats. You don't care about facts. You can't be convinced of anything that is against your own interest. Thus I am saved the time wasting of trying to convince you of anything. No, he's right, you have to go around highsec. So it can't be 11 jumps from one end to the other. Also, I see a defense you seem to use frequently. When someone actually brings out facts against your argument you just throw your hands up and accuse that person of not wanting to use facts, or not wanting to see your side of the argument, or some other similar thing. But see, this kind of reasoning goes against what you yourself are saying against that person. In fact, you are projecting your own actions against this other person who is only trying to show you how you are mistaken.
No. I know his is a liar and will not apologize for being wrong.
Here you go, person:
http://www.eve-icsc.com/jumptools/jumpplanner.php?ship=Archon&jdc=5&jfc=5&jf=0&fromsystem=QYZM-W&waypoints0=C-PEWN&waypoints1=
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4161
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:18:00 -
[120] - Quote
that jump planner is disgusting "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:20:00 -
[121] - Quote
Okay, using a secret jump planning tool, I've measured out how many jumps it would take to get from the northernmost system, 3KNA-N in Branch, to the southernmost system, LX5K-W in Paragon Soul, using a Jump Drive Calibration 5 Carrier, which has the longest jump range of any jump capable ship.
It is 7 jumps.
Now, if we were to use a different ship, like a Titan, it is 17 jumps. That is the maximum. Both of these however, require a metric fuckton of fuel, will require cynos placed in potentially hostile systems, and everything.
So it would be a total of 17 cynos from one side of the other for a Jump Portaled subcap fleet, requiring more fuel than cargo space on all the ships involved.
Edit: Here is the route involved: Titan - 5/4 Route: 3KNA-N -> BWI1-9 -> JTAU-5 -> Y-4CFK -> QPO-WI -> XD-TOV -> Passari -> Tunudan -> Decon -> Tararan -> Y9-MDG -> 2-TEGJ -> G-ME2K -> O5Y3-W -> ZG8Q-N -> C9N-CC -> 5AQ-5H -> LX5K-W 17 Jumps, Fuel: 70510 Round Trip: 141020 Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
858
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:32:00 -
[122] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Xython wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance. Yes, assuming you have 11 cyno alts in place across... No wait, I don't even think it works then, because you'd have to move AROUND highsec. Feel free to prove me wrong via a map of cyno destinations from point A to point B. Ideally the path should be circular, heading back to point A (we will then take the total number of jumps / 2 to calculate the distance "across" EVE). Oh, and it should have a drawing of a little sailboat on it. I like sailboats. You don't care about facts. You can't be convinced of anything that is against your own interest. Thus I am saved the time wasting of trying to convince you of anything. No, he's right, you have to go around highsec. So it can't be 11 jumps from one end to the other. Also, I see a defense you seem to use frequently. When someone actually brings out facts against your argument you just throw your hands up and accuse that person of not wanting to use facts, or not wanting to see your side of the argument, or some other similar thing. But see, this kind of reasoning goes against what you yourself are saying against that person. In fact, you are projecting your own actions against this other person who is only trying to show you how you are mistaken. No. I know his is a liar and will not apologize for being wrong. Here you go, person: http://www.eve-icsc.com/jumptools/jumpplanner.php?ship=Archon&jdc=5&jfc=5&jf=0&fromsystem=QYZM-W&waypoints0=C-PEWN&waypoints1=
You forgot the sailboat. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
967
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:39:00 -
[123] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Okay, using a secret jump planning tool, I've measured out how many jumps it would take to get from the northernmost system, 3KNA-N in Branch, to the southernmost system, LX5K-W in Paragon Soul, using a Jump Drive Calibration 5 Carrier, which has the longest jump range of any jump capable ship.
It is 7 jumps.
Now, if we were to use a different ship, like a Titan, it is 17 jumps. That is the maximum. Both of these however, require a metric fuckton of fuel, will require cynos placed in potentially hostile systems, and everything.
So it would be a total of 17 cynos from one side of the other for a Jump Portaled subcap fleet, requiring more fuel than cargo space on all the ships involved.
Edit: Here is the route involved: Titan - 5/4 Route: 3KNA-N -> BWI1-9 -> JTAU-5 -> Y-4CFK -> QPO-WI -> XD-TOV -> Passari -> Tunudan -> Decon -> Tararan -> Y9-MDG -> 2-TEGJ -> G-ME2K -> O5Y3-W -> ZG8Q-N -> C9N-CC -> 5AQ-5H -> LX5K-W 17 Jumps, Fuel: 70510 Round Trip: 141020 Can't you just take fuel in an industrial and bridge it along with your fleet? And also, this example is for a combat fleet to cross the entire of Eve.
I think the issue with jump drives only really comes into it's own with jump freighters, carriers being used for personal logistics and hell I've even heard freighters are now just bridged around to move outposts. I wish I'd been around in the days when goods had to be moved with obsessive scouting, maybe even support fleets.
The only people you see moving stuff around Eve the old fashioned way nowadays are space poor idiots and newbies.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
171
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:49:00 -
[124] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash.... Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through.
Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously.
|
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
967
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:54:00 -
[125] - Quote
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through. Because "most" gates isn't all gates. Scout your way around them to get large, uncloakable assets through. Covert ops, and ships agile enough to use the MWD+cloak trick can just ignore the camps. As can certain other ships.
The only people who fly blindly into the camps and die are idiots who are unwilling/incapable of learning the game mechanics. Specialized ships, strategies and guides for avoiding/running camps have been around for years, if people don't use them it is their problem.
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously. Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
171
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:01:00 -
[126] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through. Because "most" gates isn't all gates. Scout your way around them to get large, uncloakable assets through. Covert ops, and ships agile enough to use the MWD+cloak trick can just ignore the camps. As can certain other ships. The only people who fly blindly into the camps and die are idiots who are unwilling/incapable of learning the game mechanics. Specialized ships, strategies and guides for avoiding/running camps have been around for years, if people don't use them it is their problem. Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously. Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high.
That one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but yuou really don't otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get moe people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.
You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:03:00 -
[127] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high. Genius, why didn't CCP think of that. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:05:00 -
[128] - Quote
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote: That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.
You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.
If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:12:00 -
[129] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote: That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.
You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.
If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends. Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine.
Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
543
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:14:00 -
[130] - Quote
Agreed however there are many other changes that would have to go along with it to make it viable. For those who complain about the PITA it is to move large distances, well that;s kind of the point. Keeping people more localized is a better way to induce hostility and create conflicts. Lose the idea of being able to fly to the other side of Eve quickly and things might become clear on why localization can be good. Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
|
Geil Ding
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:15:00 -
[131] - Quote
The jump drive is a good idea, but not implementen as it should. The idea was for a cyno pilot to fly through all the systems and then lit a cyno. Basicly it takes the same ammount of travel time as any normal ship as everybody has to wait for the cyno alt to arive. But here is the thing, players are lazy, so people started training cyno alts and put them on strategic points to remove any traveltime. And thats what broke the jump drive, aka make it too easy.
There are also beacons at posses, but those are basicly gates for capitals and can be camped as normal gates. Yes it speeds up traveling but it does not allow safe travel, you still need a scout to check if the system is clear. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
421
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:17:00 -
[132] - Quote
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote: That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.
You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.
If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends. Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine. Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way.
I'm sorry that you have more trouble making friends than Goons do. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:18:00 -
[133] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote: That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.
You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.
If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends. Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine. Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way. I'm sorry that you have more trouble making friends than Goons do.
Huh? |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1449
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:19:00 -
[134] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through. Because "most" gates isn't all gates. Scout your way around them to get large, uncloakable assets through. Covert ops, and ships agile enough to use the MWD+cloak trick can just ignore the camps. As can certain other ships. The only people who fly blindly into the camps and die are idiots who are unwilling/incapable of learning the game mechanics. Specialized ships, strategies and guides for avoiding/running camps have been around for years, if people don't use them it is their problem. Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously. Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high.
Not for nothing but I read many time "get a scout alt to survive (rabble, rage, etc)" but to most people, any game where you have to double your subscription fee, or amount or work for plex, "just to survive" comes off as a scam. I find a way, but I'm the freak here. Most people just won't bother.
|
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
555
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:22:00 -
[135] - Quote
I'm just speculating here, how about you can only jump into your own territory?
think about it. JF will only be able to take good from high to nullsec, the trip back will be dangerous meaning logistics will exist, industry could also thrive in null
no lowsec hot drops as you can't jump in as before
if your territory is under attack you can more easily mobilize your capships with jump drives, but cannot attack an enemy system in the same way. |
nubile slave
Furian Necromongers
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:53:00 -
[136] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash.... Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
Are you serious? Who the heck would want to go to 0.0 without being able to jump stuff in....
Please get some actual knowledge of 0.0 before giving an opinion.... |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
423
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:57:00 -
[137] - Quote
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote: That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.
You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.
If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends. Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine. Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way. I'm sorry that you have more trouble making friends than Goons do. Huh?
I suggested that to get into nullsec one could try to make friends with someone already there. You then decided to get all sarcastic and say something about playing the game "my" way.
Then I implied that Goons are better at making friends than you, which seems to be true.
If you or anyone else doesn't want to get around by making friends in this game, then be my guest, but it isn't going to go well for you or anyone else. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1215
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 07:03:00 -
[138] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:I'm just speculating here, how about you can only jump into your own territory?
think about it. JF will only be able to take good from high to nullsec, the trip back will be dangerous meaning logistics will exist, industry could also thrive in null
no lowsec hot drops as you can't jump in as before
if your territory is under attack you can more easily mobilize your capships with jump drives, but cannot attack an enemy system in the same way.
So now you want alliances that don't own sov to not be able to use capital ships at all?
No. |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 07:10:00 -
[139] - Quote
Changes I wouldn't mind seeing for capitals.
Jump drives having a spin up time so you can't undock/jump while immune and it gives you longer to intercept them when they're on the move.
No jumping from high sec, JF's should have to slowboat to a lowsec entry point then jump |
Sendo Jarix
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 07:41:00 -
[140] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
You don't care about facts. You can't be convinced of anything that is against your own interest.
Thus I am saved the time wasting of trying to convince you of anything.
It's you who is acting like this. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
646
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 08:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
Feligast wrote:Herping yourDerp wrote:I'm just speculating here, how about you can only jump into your own territory?
think about it. JF will only be able to take good from high to nullsec, the trip back will be dangerous meaning logistics will exist, industry could also thrive in null
no lowsec hot drops as you can't jump in as before
if your territory is under attack you can more easily mobilize your capships with jump drives, but cannot attack an enemy system in the same way. So now you want alliances that don't own sov to not be able to use capital ships at all? No. Ahaha, actually that's a really good catch. +1 Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
913
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 09:05:00 -
[142] - Quote
nubile slave wrote:Are you serious? Who the heck would want to go to 0.0 without being able to jump stuff in....
Please get some actual knowledge of 0.0 before giving an opinion....
Confirming that no one lived in null sec before jump drives.
Also for your information I have staged fuel and cyno alts in those jump routes. Cyno alts are throw aways and everyone has them. Also the fuel cost is absolute chump change, especially when an alliance has access to passive income like high end moons. Staging systems along the jump route are for the most part NPC stations that have fuel brought to them via jump freighter alts, most likely not really in the alliance the fuel is used for. All the while doing it with 100% safety.
So you proclaiming that it is a colossal pain in the ass to set these things up is a flat out lie. Compared to the pay off, extremely massive power projection at lighting fast speed, the cost of running such a jump network is an absolute joke!
Quality, Cost, Time; in no way should anyone or any entity in this game be able to have all three. You can pick two and the third must suffer.
- You want to project massive power quickly? It should cost you dramatically high. - You want to quickly project power cheaply? Then the amount of power projected should be minimal. - You want to project massive power cheaply? Then the amount of time to do so should be considerably high.
Is this really asking too much?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
858
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 09:10:00 -
[143] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Confirming that no one lived in null sec before jump drives.
Seconded. There was absolutely not a circumstance in which during the beginning of Revelations, when the drone regions first opened, Guardian Coalition, the alliance I was a member of at the time, lived in The Kalevala Expanse (back when it was called 87-1CW) in a system called RQOO-U for nearly a month and a half before anyone in the alliance obtained a carrier. This did not happen, because obviously it couldn't possibly have happened. Mane 614
|
Executus Primus
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 09:51:00 -
[144] - Quote
I think one of the major issues i have with the current mechanics is, that it impacts negatively the way massive warfare is conducted. This is based on the current sov mechanics and jumpdrive capability.
A major sov war would should be a massive conflict that is not decided in a few days. It should resemble 19th centuries wars, in which a single battle does not necessarily decide the outcome of a war. A sov conflict should include strategic depth and frontlines.
Currently, even big sov wars resemble skirmish warfare or at best some form of "blitzkrieg". Basically after a few days or weeks a conflict is decided. The looser collapses before he even brought the majority of his war assets into the conflict. It is a phenomenom that is usually described as "failcascade". This has the unfortunate side effect that assets are not destroyed. They just change sides. Staying power and long-term economic strength play only a minor role in these short conflicts. It prevents tactics like harassment, economic warfare and attrition tactics from being options. Loyalty to an alliance is not an option but is essentially dumb if you are on the loosing side.
Currently there is little in eve that provides a concept of "overextenting your power grasp". In my opinion this is really a game design issue and should be looked at mid to longterm. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4163
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 10:06:00 -
[145] - Quote
people lived in nullsec before deployable outposts, POSes, capitals of any sort, jump freighters and the alliance mechanic
that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
376
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 10:34:00 -
[146] - Quote
Andski wrote:people lived in nullsec before deployable outposts, POSes, capitals of any sort, jump freighters and the alliance mechanic that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same
It was definitely more challenging though. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
376
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 10:40:00 -
[147] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: Quality, Cost, Time; in no way should anyone or any entity in this game be able to have all three. You can pick two and the third must suffer.
- You want to project massive power quickly? It should cost you dramatically high. - You want to quickly project power cheaply? Then the amount of power projected should be minimal. - You want to project massive power cheaply? Then the amount of time to do so should be considerably high.
Is this really asking too much?
Give ever CCP game-designer a T-shirt with this text on it and wearing should be mandatory, whenever new features or balancing is discussed between devs.
Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4164
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 11:01:00 -
[148] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:It was definitely more challenging though.
you misspelled "tedious" "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 11:33:00 -
[149] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote: B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky.
And all of that could be resolved with a revision to the current movement mechanics. Imagine instead of the dozens to hundreds of man hours setting up to cross the entirety of the universe, minutes to a perhaps a dozen man hours to the big fight, because no one is going that far and the fights are there. What's the point of the huge napfest except to preserve that ginormous logistical chain? Smaller, more frequent and more involving fights. A more open 0.0. More targets. What's not to like? What you are saying doesn't apply to reality. Without the jump drive technology, 0.0 would get stale and fights would not occur, other than the trivial small gang that were too bored and wanted to get some kills no matter what.
The fights are not there as you say it. You think that 0.0 is like high sec with a lot of stations, where anyone can dock and chill if he/she wants too. You are wrong. |
Polly Oxford
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:10:00 -
[150] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
The thing some people don't realize is the absurd speed of Jump Drive travel is what makes blobs of this size possible.
If the blobs were forced to move across the map at anything like a reasonable speed... say one hour to cross the whole map.... then the blobs would spend to much time moving from blob-target to blob-target.
Then KM starvation leads to boredom leads to blob fracturing or shrinking in size.
Slower Jump Drive travel speed=Smaller blobs.
Only because the Blob-saur is faster than than the fastest little frigate-mouse allows it to maintain it's ponderous size without KM starvation.
That'sbasically the gistof this thread. You want people become so bored off this game that they cancel their subscription instead of show up to a fight. |
|
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:10:00 -
[151] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:nubile slave wrote:Are you serious? Who the heck would want to go to 0.0 without being able to jump stuff in....
Please get some actual knowledge of 0.0 before giving an opinion.... Confirming that no one lived in null sec before jump drives. Also for your information I have staged fuel and cyno alts in those jump routes. Cyno alts are throw aways and everyone has them. Also the fuel cost is absolute chump change, especially when an alliance has access to passive income like high end moons. Staging systems along the jump route are for the most part NPC stations that have fuel brought to them via jump freighter alts, most likely not really in the alliance the fuel is used for. All the while doing it with 100% safety. So you proclaiming that it is a colossal pain in the ass to set these things up is a flat out lie. Compared to the pay off, extremely massive power projection at lighting fast speed, the cost of running such a jump network is an absolute joke!Quality, Cost, Time; in no way should anyone or any entity in this game be able to have all three. You can pick two and the third must suffer.
- You want to project massive power quickly? It should cost you dramatically high. - You want to quickly project power cheaply? Then the amount of power projected should be minimal. - You want to project massive power cheaply? Then the amount of time to do so should be considerably high.Is this really asking too much? People lived in 0.0 before jump drives, but they also avoided taking their logistics HQ too far into 0.0, to ease up the burden.
Also I like the generalizations you use for the 0.0 population and how you make them appear as facts while in truth aren't. Most people have alts. For everything. I don't see you complaining for the other uses.
Fuel is not chump change, and requires a serious logistical effort to be moved around. Moving via NPC stations is not always the choice and more often than not it ain't a choice. Not to forget also that Supercapitals CAN'T dock, which somehow i think nullifies your argument.
If the cost of running a jump network was an absolute joke as you proclaim it, then I take it all alliances would have extensive jump bridges networks. Which also is not the case. Maybe due to the huge effort that is required by the players to maintain that network.
Quality, cost, time. You seem to lack the understanding that cost isn't and should not be always monetary. |
Avasa Siuu
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:21:00 -
[152] - Quote
To add tho this rather hilarious topic coming from many high sec players...
And also to caveat off of other comments previously made.
Jumping does take planning and it does require a scout. The most vulnerable for a capital is when it jumps into the system and due to its metric ****ton of as* it has to haul and turn it takes a while for it to align especially the more larger they are. At that point if a neutral enters the system and notices a cyno up and running or if the capital pilot that jumped his ship in the first place into a system with a neutral or "baddy" is taking a considerable risk for his already expensive ship.
As we all know the only ships capable of making jumps are heavenly expensive, Rorqual for example, and Super Carriers and Titans which need the full cooperation of either an extremely wealthy and powerful and capable corporation or Alliance to build. Super Carriers themselves are also a big investment, some players take years to build a Super due to the sole fact of needing so much material and also putting up a POS and must be able to defend that POS without losing it. Jump ships of all sorts are very expensive so they add to the risk/reward aspect of the game. Are people willing to drop Supers blindly or Titans blindly anywhere in null sec without having proper intelligence? Would they be willing to expose something so expensive that if they lost it out of mere stupidity that the punishment if an alliance super or titan would be to just troll you and kick you out and ban you from the alliance/coalition.
The logistics of having jump capable ships. You have to remember that for null sec alliances Jumps can come VERY costly on top of fuel costs for the POSs needed to build such ships. Not only do they invest in building the ships themselves but also invest in the fuel for POSs, investment in having jump freighters constantly fueled to be able to build such ships. It takes hundreds of man hours to build a super and a lot of investment is put into it itself. For carriers and dreadnaughts and jump freighters yes they can be built in a station but look at the investment of a billion isk ship... a billion? thats it? Have at it. Jump freighters exempt from previous comment.
Defense of such expensive ships, you also have to think of defense for such ships, Supers and Titans only able to build in POSs? now think about that, Your putting a lot of risk in throwing it out in the open where anyone can just find a CSMA and blob it, Now most null sec alliances will that set up CSMAs in systems will put up cyno jammers to prevent other capital ships from destroying their investment with the "Win Buttan." At that point you need a subcapital fleet to enter the system, "god forbid it falls through the intel channels of the receiving alliance" and destroy the cyno jammer in order to jump in the attackers capitals. On top of that also the defenders will need to quickly rally any ships in the area, now sub capitals vs a metric f***ton of attacking capitals which have planned this attack and put the logistics into it is not going to stand a bloody chance, at that point it is only feasable to allow jump capable ships for a quick reaction to defend such a precious asset to them.
Jump capable ships have added more gameplay and more capabilities into eve allowing for more content, and thats what CCP wishes is content for players, yes watching capitals slug it out is like watching a goldfish look at you. It is painful. But it does add more dangers into the game, more content, and thus a bit more fun. With out jump capable ships many alliances would still resort to just blobbing each other and let me tell you if your complaining about jump capable ships then us "pretentious do***e bags" would simply blob high sec even more to just entertain us. What else would that isk go into if it werent for jump capable ships. Ill tell you from experience in a coalition full of joy and glee, it would go into cheap alpha capable ships destroying all the high sec tarts that complain about something that they never see or handle on a daily basis. |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:36:00 -
[153] - Quote
Andski wrote:that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same
HTFU?
Just askin'... |
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:49:00 -
[154] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one day's worth of fun.
Remember, this is a game, not a job.
Huh, weird, I thought that this game was a job considering just how slow everything else is. The only thing that jump drives help are those that have a capital ship, the rest of us are ******. We get to fly around from system to system doing the tedious act of clicking away in hopes of reaching our destinations safely. So I guess the game is work for those that have a capital ship but meant to be another job for everyone else.
Seeing that I do not have a capital ship I have no problems with CCP either nerfing them so that they cannot cross such vast amounts of space in a second, or allow all ships to have varying levels of jump capability. The browser based Battlestar game actually has a decent system set up. Hell, I wish that game was fully developed so I could go play a space based game that is far less of a grindfest then eve. |
Avasa Siuu
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:59:00 -
[155] - Quote
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one day's worth of fun.
Remember, this is a game, not a job. Huh, weird, I thought that this game was a job considering just how slow everything else is. The only thing that jump drives help are those that have a capital ship, the rest of us are ******. We get to fly around from system to system doing the tedious act of clicking away in hopes of reaching our destinations safely. So I guess the game is work for those that have a capital ship but meant to be another job for everyone else. Seeing that I do not have a capital ship I have no problems with CCP either nerfing them so that they cannot cross such vast amounts of space in a second, or allow all ships to have varying levels of jump capability. The browser based Battlestar game actually has a decent system set up. Hell, I wish that game was fully developed so I could go play a space based game that is far less of a grindfest then eve.
In all honesty the game has many riches that dont require a grindfest, if you wanted to one weekend for a hour or two doing lvl 4 missions in high sec (dreadful) or doing complexes in null sec can get you rather rich rather quick with minimal training into it. Thats where Eve comes into a big play other than most MMOs, other MMOs you do things on your own and get SUPER rich thats its not even funny. Eve is pushing you essentially and is designed for cooperation or betrayal. Cooperate and get rich and not have to worry about a thing. Betray and youll get rich quick but then you have to build new relations with new players. Eve is not designed to play by yourself, it encourages you to build relations, build your story wether you put together a corporation, got into null sec and next thing you know your in charge of an alliance and eventually a coalition. Delegation can go a long way in a corporation too and can make you very successful. And thats where trust comes in. And where theres trust, their is always one that is there to break it. Thats what makes Eve. |
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 13:12:00 -
[156] - Quote
Avasa Siuu wrote:To add tho this rather hilarious topic coming from many high sec players...
And also to caveat off of other comments previously made.
Jumping does take planning and it does require a scout. The most vulnerable for a capital is when it jumps into the system and due to its metric ****ton of as* it has to haul and turn it takes a while for it to align especially the more larger they are. At that point if a neutral enters the system and notices a cyno up and running or if the capital pilot that jumped his ship in the first place into a system with a neutral or "baddy" is taking a considerable risk for his already expensive ship.
As we all know the only ships capable of making jumps are heavenly expensive, Rorqual for example, and Super Carriers and Titans which need the full cooperation of either an extremely wealthy and powerful and capable corporation or Alliance to build. Super Carriers themselves are also a big investment, some players take years to build a Super due to the sole fact of needing so much material and also putting up a POS and must be able to defend that POS without losing it. Jump ships of all sorts are very expensive so they add to the risk/reward aspect of the game. Are people willing to drop Supers blindly or Titans blindly anywhere in null sec without having proper intelli
The logistics of having jump capable ships. You have to remember that for null sec alliances Jumps can come VERY costly on top of fuel costs for the POSs needed to build such ships. Not only do they invest in building the ships themselves but also invest in the fuel for POSs, investment in having jump freighters constantly fueled to be able to build such ships. It takes hundreds of man hours to build a super and a lohe investment of a billion isk ship... a billion? thats it? Have at it. Jump freighters exempt from previous comment.
Defense of such expensive ships, you also have to think of defense for such ships, Supers and Titans only able to build in POSs? now think about that, Your putting a lot of risk in throwing it out in the open where anyone can just find a CSMA and blob it, Now most null sec alliances will that set up CSMAs in systems will put up cyno jammers to prevent other capital ships from destroying their investment ned this attack and put the logistics into it is not going to stand a bloody chance, at that point it is only feasable to allow jump capable ships for a quick reaction to defend such a precious asset to them.
Jump capable ships have added more gameplay and more capabilities into eve allowing for more content, and thats what CCP wishes is content for players, yes watching capitals slug it out is like watching a goldfish look at you. It is painful. But it does add more dangers into the game, more content, and thus a bit more fun. With out jump capable ships many alliances would still resort to just blobbing each other and let me tell you if your complaining about jump capable ships then us "pretentious do***e bags" would simply blob high sec even more to just entertain us. What else would that isk go into if it werent for jump capable ships. Ill tell you from experience in a coalition full of joy and glee, it would go into cheap alpha capable ships destroying all the high sec tarts that complain about something that they never see or handle on a daily basis.
On top of all the isk heavily invested in building such ships, what about losing them? Capitals are lost, it is the game, they are lost, Supers, Titans, Carriers, Dreadnaughts, Jump Freighters. They are lost out of either pure stupidity (in my case ratting during a stratop during the delve invasion when i was a part of TEST.... sorry dudes) or lost against fleets slugging it out. At that point you need replacements, you need more logistics because fights have gotten more intense and the insanity levels of fleets have gone up. I feel bad for fleet commanders commanding capital fleets.
Espionage is also then at that point involved, Super Capital pilots and Titan pilots are targeted and monitored by an alliance wanting to go on the offence, intelligence gathering on where they are being built and which CSMA is the "real" CSMA. Alliances will watchlist any enemy Super Capital pilot and see if they blob at that point its either fight or flight.
Jump Freighters are a god send and at the same time a curse for null sec alliances, yes it makes logistics easier and faster for a fast paced alliance constantly losing ships, constantly needing fuel just to keep blowing them up. It allows us here in null sec to blow up faster and blow up again even faster, constantly adding fights and roams. or the dreadful gatecamp. They are a curse DUE to the massive target it paints. This is where espionage plays in, any good spy will learn of the logistics capabilities of any alliance. They learn their routes, what characters they use, when their next shipments are planned. Jump Freighter pilots dont always use sporadic jumping methods. They can be surprisingly predictable to a trained eye. Any fleet knowing of the logistics of any alliance can wreak a lot of pain on the receiving end. At that point it could mean that a jump bridge doesnt get fuel, which loses a fight
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
860
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 13:19:00 -
[157] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Andski wrote:people lived in nullsec before deployable outposts, POSes, capitals of any sort, jump freighters and the alliance mechanic that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same It was definitely more challenging though.
****** and Annoying != Challenge. |
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 13:45:00 -
[158] - Quote
The idea that jump capable ships are expensive to operate, therefore they should be able to move anywhere within 20 minutes is an absolute joke. By that logic a Maurader should also be jump capable and come with fighters. The need to operate a pos is also a joke since 0.0 is home to isk taps in the form of moons that can easily pay for it. Throw in the ton of alts and jump capable ships, including jump freighters and that supposedly monster sized task of fueling them just got a hell of a lot easier.
Jump ships are great for those that have all the isk they can need. They are great for holding onto isk faucets that fill the pockets of certain individuals in 0.0, they will never argue against it. Jump capable ships, and titan bridges are awesome for holding down the fort, regardless of the fact that you abandoned the fort until someone started poking around it.
Eve has become a game of chess. Yes, a game of chess. Except in this game one side is nothing but queens and the other side nothing but pawns. Queens that can be anywhere they wish to be with a capital and subcap fleet as soon as they wish. The side of pawns has nothing but slow moving, gate using, subcapital ships. The queens would be 0.0 alliances that hold more ground then they really should be able to, while the group of pawns are the groups that would like to move to 0.0 but cannot less they get crushed by hotdropping fleets.
CCP clearly has it in for the small fry alliances. The alliances that wish to move to 0.0 under their own power, under their terms. They clearly want people to use a 0.0 broker in the form of a "real" 0.0 alliance (as most players call them) by either joining them individually, or by renting the space that they are honestly to small to hold on their own. CCP does not want small groups of players fighting it out either amongst each other looking to secure some small piece of property in 0.0, or by reducing the "Massive fleets" that they have fighting each other that makes for good PR to sell more plex cards and generates new accounts as players hear of such large fights. It also does not want the small fry having a chance as who wants to hear of and think of being in charge of a small alliance when the idea of somehow getting thousands of players to listen to your ever word is much more appealing to the egos out there? CCP does not want that because it seems all to tribal instead of a world war taking place. No one cares about a tribal skirmish, but thousands of players killing each other? Thats another story. Small alliances gobbling up all of the space that the "real" alliances falsely hold would not make for a good PR story to any 2 bit 'gaming' site that cares.
It is not a matter of logistics. Roqs, carriers, and jump freighters move the goods. Jump freighters even more so. Titans gets smaller blobs from point A to point B, acting as a funnel without the risk to the funneling ship. It is not a matter of paying for isk in such an isk rich environment. If it becomes a problem just rent more of your empty space and charge more for it. Tax the playerbase that you have. run ops. Theres no reason to ***** to the rest of us about it costing isk, you're doing a iskbong, where the faster you can chug, the more isk you take in, all while doing a self promotional handstand. If you cannot afford it, you shouldn't be able to hold it, and lets face it if you cannot afford it..you're doing something wrong.
There is also no connection to the real world militaries and ccp's intention to keep a core group of players in power. Real militaries take days for their first responders to even rally, much less load up and arrive. The main forces take weeks to finally arrive in full force. The first responders are small in number, light in gear, and limited in supplies. In eve though the entire military can be on the opposite side of the 'world' in a few minutes flat. Forget the idea that RL ships are going to take weeks to get to their destination, that any airforce needs to fly to a series of bases along a path to a base behind the front line and that they need to have some logistics behind all that. Forget all of that because ccp really wants to ensure that a few players out of the entire population maintain their position as it makes for a great story for when they are hamming it up about the game. We don't want little groups with a plan attacking a large alliance's space when that alliance is fighting on a front on the other side of the game. It should matter and it should end up with them taking space or at least putting some hurt on that large alliance that didn't cover their butts
Of course, the idea that ccp wants to keep the small groups down was apparent from the day they nerfed the range of torps. Can't have a weapon that is going to hurt a cap having any range. Can't have that...no...blobs of battleships might be able to do some serious damage.
Forget logistics. Forget planning. Forget strategy. Forget having to defend ground. Forget the concept of garrison forces. Forget all that. Forget the idea that subcap fleets take the equivolent of weeks to travel about while the rich land barons of 0.0 can simply flash in at a moment's notice. Its all about the plex,nothing more, nothing less. By that I mean its all about ccp's bottom line, not having a great game that allows anyone to try and make a thrust into the holy land of eve which is ccp without the rich, in game and RL, being able to easily protect it even if they act like a bunch of braindead monkeys that are flinging banannas at each other and eating their crap. |
Avasa Siuu
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:01:00 -
[159] - Quote
Hey if your complaining about small alliances not making it, Look at Fatal Ascension. Small alliance to start, we showed teeth we showed promise and now look at us, we are now the "baron" overlord of Pure Blind and Fade.
If you want to make a difference and you want the "small fry" to stand a chance then bloody round up the troops and storm our gates in massive numbers. How do you think goons do it? Do you think we take over space by just dropping the win button all the time, no not really. We send out drunken frig roams which 99% of the fleet is hammered while the 1% is passed out on his key board, and we win, or die in a blaze of fire.
You want to make a difference, you want to stand a chance? Then sally the *** up and do something about it. Build an alliance, build a coalition and nail us. Were bored out here and are happy that -A- deployed nearby just to mess with us dealing with the sov grind in cloud ring right now.
We enjoy tears, we enjoy explosions, Thats what Eve is about. Its not about fairness or the misguided dillusions of how a game is meant to be played. Eve is a sandbox, it is a free roaming and has the capabilities of doing anything you will. This IS a game, not reality, if this was reality we have to restrict to rules and confines of society. In Eve, its a game, There are rules in certain places, but for us in Null our rules are our own, we build what empire we wish to build, our dreams are what we want them to be and how do you think we got here in the first place? By complaining? No, we took action and took it into our own hands and we hammered any that got in our way. |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:07:00 -
[160] - Quote
Xython wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Andski wrote:people lived in nullsec before deployable outposts, POSes, capitals of any sort, jump freighters and the alliance mechanic that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same It was definitely more challenging though. ****** and Annoying != Challenge.
Shoe, meet the other foot. ;)
|
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
718
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:08:00 -
[161] - Quote
Face it, travel mechanics in Eve suck, and they always have sucked. Time for an upgrade. |
Rhealee
An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:11:00 -
[162] - Quote
If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives. |
Derth Ramir
Vayne.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:23:00 -
[163] - Quote
Jump drives are not the problem. Jump freighters on the other hand completely ruined eve. |
doombreed52
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:34:00 -
[164] - Quote
So you want to make 0.0 more painful to live in? so everyone goes back to highsec and carebears with you as you mine. go away. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4165
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:45:00 -
[165] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:Andski wrote:that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same HTFU? Just askin'...
try posting with your main "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Harper Haberdash
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:45:00 -
[166] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one group of fights. I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes. Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long. Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now.
How ******** are you? TEST doesn't give turd about dropping a 100 man blob on some noname carebear in high/lowsec.
Oh, the tears.
|
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 15:03:00 -
[167] - Quote
Yeah - its not like you need to gave another ship do the traveling and light a cyno or something. BoBoZoBoCEO of TheRealm |
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 15:05:00 -
[168] - Quote
So what you are saying is you want it to take 3-4 hours for a fleet to travel through nullsec, each way.
And what makes you think this will create more fights?
When we cross the galaxy quickly it is because it was setup days, if not weeks, in advance. Each jump calculated in advance, someone flew to each location to setup a safe POS and get a cyno going.
Impromptu hot drops need to be in a very short range, depending on what you are hot dropping. A standard fleet needs a titan bridge (so 60b and a lot of training) and has the range of about a region. A carrier can skip over a region (so ~1.5b and over a year of training). Both of these assume good skills. Black ops hotdrops have limited range as well.
You can simply look at the map (average players in space) to see if there is a hostile camp or hotdrop ready to go. Hot drops are annoying but it's part of the game. I'm sorry you lost your tengu to a bunch of bombers or whatever but HTFU. |
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 15:32:00 -
[169] - Quote
We should remove gates and go to fuel for required jumps. Put a new jump fuel in game. Jumping from system to system requires x amount of fuel per jump. This would add a new ISK dump into the game as well and create a whole new market. Just get rid of gates completely.
Then there could be hundreds of entry points per system - it would open up all of EVE space. Imagine whole fleets of carebears jumping into null sec from various points because they are no longer at the mercy of gate camping asshats. LOL! Let the invasion begin! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
733
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:03:00 -
[170] - Quote
Andski wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:
...
Quality, Cost, Time; in no way should anyone or any entity in this game be able to have all three. You can pick two and the third must suffer.
- You want to project massive power quickly? It should cost you dramatically high. - You want to quickly project power cheaply? Then the amount of power projected should be minimal. - You want to project massive power cheaply? Then the amount of time to do so should be considerably high.
Is this really asking too much?
people lived in nullsec before deployable outposts, POSes, capitals of any sort, jump freighters and the alliance mechanic that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same
It's exactly the same as hi sec miners complaining about their Hulk getting ganked.
YOUR corp on top of all tell them to HTFU:
"If you want to not die then fit tank and drop yield" "If you want top yield then you will die"
"You can't have both".
Hey, now it's your corp turn to be schooled about "you can't have pie and eat it". Is it tedious? Sure, in the same manner it's awful to fit a massive tank on an Hulk. Yet miners are schooled about go that way or the highway, right? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
917
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:07:00 -
[171] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:People lived in 0.0 before jump drives, but they also avoided taking their logistics HQ too far into 0.0, to ease up the burden.
They moved what they needed to where they lived. By today's standards it does not seem like a lot, but back then, it was what they needed to get the job done.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Also I like the generalizations you use for the 0.0 population and how you make them appear as facts while in truth aren't. Most people have alts. For everything. I don't see you complaining for the other uses.
I despise alts, but that is another topic. This thread topic is about power projection, specifically jump drives.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Fuel is not chump change, and requires a serious logistical effort to be moved around. Moving via NPC stations is not always the choice and more often than not it ain't a choice. Not to forget also that Supercapitals CAN'T dock, which somehow i think nullifies your argument.
Fuel is cheap. It is not hard to move with jump freighters and titans bridging normal freighters. Stations that capitals can immediatly dock and undock with full fuel and capacitor are sought out. Once you setup the locations, it is gravy after that. Super capitals?? **** super capitals.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:If the cost of running a jump network was an absolute joke as you proclaim it, then I take it all alliances would have extensive jump bridges networks. Which also is not the case. Maybe due to the huge effort that is required by the players to maintain that network.
Jump bridge networks cost money via the sov system. Also they can be shot at. You can't specifically target someones fuel storage at a station or go after the alts who bring them in. Maybe you could pop the cyno kestrel, but the jump freighter/carrier/bridged freighter has long since docked in 100% safety.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Quality, cost, time. You seem to lack the understanding that cost isn't and should not be always monetary.
I understand things perfectly. No one goes out of their way to run supply logistics in a more dangerous way. Due to the current mechanics, you can get supplies in with ease and perfectly unscathed.
What you and a few others are worried about is your power projection being nerfed. You are afraid that in order to find conflict you will need to look more closer to where you live instead of on the other side of the galaxy. You are afraid of effort. You are afraid that "Push button, receive PvP" will go away. You are afraid that you will not be able to blob every threat. You are afraid of actually living in the territory you claim sov in. You are afraid of actually doing things proactively to protect assets in space like POS's and other things. You are afraid of having risk when you carebear.
You are scared of the unknown.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
733
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:10:00 -
[172] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote: Impromptu hot drops need to be in a very short range, depending on what you are hot dropping. A standard fleet needs a titan bridge (so 60b and a lot of training) and has the range of about a region. A carrier can skip over a region (so ~1.5b and over a year of training). Both of these assume good skills. Black ops hotdrops have limited range as well.
As Tippia says, the cost is not relevant for game balance. People WILL get those 60b (which is fairly easy, I could buy a titan today and I am a solo casual player playing 1 hour a day) so the roadblock is just a bump, not a limit.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:12:00 -
[173] - Quote
Arguments in this thread seem to revolve a lot around making Eve realistic vs "we dont want it to be a job".
The ones using the 1st argument seem to understand and accept that they would have to "suffer" the hardships the proposed changes would generate on them (that is considering IF they would become deep null sec residents).
The ones using the 2nd argument totally reject the idea.
Is it out of stobbernness? Laziness? Fear of loosing what they have?
I wonder |
Joe Skellington
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:16:00 -
[174] - Quote
I bet all those WW1 French vets were pissed when the Blitzkrieg was invented. I don't think they had forums to whine on about it. -á-á |\__/|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \ |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:19:00 -
[175] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:
You are scared of the unknown.
Bang on!! |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:22:00 -
[176] - Quote
To the OP:
Your are exaggerating a little with the time it takes to move big fleets. Normally just getting everyone in range of a titan bridge without bumping said titan outside a POS can be a challenge. The reason I stopped doing null-sec PVP was all the blue-balling, where you literally take hours to assemble a fleet, maneuver it into position, bridge, and then half the time there will be no fight.
Organizing hundreds of people to do anything is in itself a difficult task that takes practice, discipline and patience, and even then you'll have to put up with the asshats who show up 10 minutes after form-up and ask for ammo in local chat...
That said, I do agree that transport has gotten too easy. Jumpbridges, titan bridges, jump freighters, etc... it's all making EVE a smaller place with less room for everyone. I also think the clutter of player owned stations in null-sec is a real problem. Null-sec is becoming way too safe, which is why everyone and his dog move to empire to gank haulers and miners.
|
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:27:00 -
[177] - Quote
Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.
First of all, wormholes are simply too random and volatile to be depended upon for alliance logistics. Secondly, there's a significant time investment in actually scanning down the wormhole, and it's rare to find a rabbit hole that will take you from empire to null-sec in 2 jumps. Usually you'll have to go at least 3-4 systems deep, and by then you've spent more time than a carrier pilots would do cyno-jumping to his destination. |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:31:00 -
[178] - Quote
Andski wrote:Malphilos wrote:Andski wrote:that doesn't mean the quality of life was the same HTFU? Just askin'... try posting with your main
I'll take that as a "yes".
|
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:38:00 -
[179] - Quote
Dragon Outlaw wrote:Arguments in this thread seem to revolve a lot around making Eve realistic vs "we dont want it to be a job". The ones using the 1st argument seem to understand and accept that they would have to "suffer" the hardships the proposed changes would generate on them (that is considering IF they would become deep null sec residents). The ones using the 2nd argument (mostly null sec residents in large alliances) totally reject the idea. Is it out of stobbernness? Laziness? Fear of loosing what they have? I wonder My argument makes it funner and realistic. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
727
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:46:00 -
[180] - Quote
nubile slave wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash.... Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual. Are you serious? Who the heck would want to go to 0.0 without being able to jump stuff in.... Please get some actual knowledge of 0.0 before giving an opinion.... Um... when 0.0 was founded nobody was jumping stuff in. I used to use a badger mkII w/stabs all low and as much tank as I could manage and a shuttle to scout. It was a mad dash. ...but at that time null had more relative value in isk terms and it wasn't one or two alliances w/ blobs of supers teleporting around the map that ran the show. Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Adria Origin wrote: Impromptu hot drops need to be in a very short range, depending on what you are hot dropping. A standard fleet needs a titan bridge (so 60b and a lot of training) and has the range of about a region. A carrier can skip over a region (so ~1.5b and over a year of training). Both of these assume good skills. Black ops hotdrops have limited range as well.
As Tippia says, the cost is not relevant for game balance. People WILL get those 60b (which is fairly easy, I could buy a titan today and I am a solo casual player playing 1 hour a day) so the roadblock is just a bump, not a limit.
This is absolutely correct ^ Fuel is nothing. In fact you could increase the price of fuel by an order of magnitude and I probably wouldn't even notice the change. Fuel is not the problem. Teleportation is. Need to reign it in somehow. I was hoping Inferno would address it but meh... hapy about crimewatch and wardecs. We're getting there.
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Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:52:00 -
[181] - Quote
Not sure from where the "15 jumps to cross the galaxy" came from, but i am pretty certain i did at times about 30 jumps to get somewhere and it wasnt even half across the galaxy. ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Kieron VonDeux
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:56:00 -
[182] - Quote
Dragon Outlaw wrote:... The ones using the 2nd argument (mostly null sec residents in large alliances) totally reject the idea. Is it out of stobbernness? Laziness? Fear of loosing what they have? I wonder
I think it is a little of all the above, with some emphasis on the latter. |
MeestaPenni
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
245
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:01:00 -
[183] - Quote
Maybe some idea in between keeping it as it is and entirely removing jump gates?
How about reducing the accuracy of jump gates?
As an example; if I bookmark a can in a solar system, subsequent warps to that bookmark at "0" results in a wide range of accuracy relative to the total distance traveled. Yeah, I'll be within a certain distance of the can, but at what appear to be random spots within a sphere surrounding that can. And that's just a measure of AU's in a solar system. However, when I use a jumpgate, traveling distances measured in light years, I land within a sphere that is a relatively tiny target given the distance involved.
I guess a good analogy would be to stand 10 meters from a 2 cm target and reliably toss a small pebble within 5 cm of the target, versus, stand 100 meters from the same target and reliably land a small pebble within 15 cm of the target. The ratio of distance to accuracy doesn't intuitively make sense.
Make jumpgates a means to leave a system--aimed at a different system--but the arrival location a random spot within the solar system. Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore. |
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:02:00 -
[184] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics. Proof you know nothing about nullsec.
MeestaPenni wrote:Maybe some idea in between keeping it as it is and entirely removing jump gates?
How about reducing the accuracy of jump gates?
As an example; if I bookmark a can in a solar system, subsequent warps to that bookmark at "0" results in a wide range of accuracy relative to the total distance traveled. Yeah, I'll be within a certain distance of the can, but at what appear to be random spots within a sphere surrounding that can. And that's just a measure of AU's in a solar system. However, when I use a jumpgate, traveling distances measured in light years, I land within a sphere that is a relatively tiny target given the distance involved.
I guess a good analogy would be to stand 10 meters from a 2 cm target and reliably toss a small pebble within 5 cm of the target, versus, stand 100 meters from the same target and reliably land a small pebble within 15 cm of the target. The ratio of distance to accuracy doesn't intuitively make sense.
Make jumpgates a means to leave a system--aimed at a different system--but the arrival location a random spot within the solar system. So basically you want to go backwards and remove warp to 0? |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1453
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:03:00 -
[185] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote: So, how do you think Jump Drives should be nerfed to bring back the sanity?
Remove the need for cynos to jump.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
728
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:26:00 -
[186] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote:Gogela wrote:Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics. Proof you know nothing about nullsec. It was before your time. Long before your time. I spent more time in null than you're char has existed before you even created her. Null looked a lot different. It's been hugely changed many times over. Iterations of null I guess they would call it. This is just another in the latest line of lame null iterations. There were some really good iterations too... course everyone can come up w/ a gripe about anything I guess. I don't get stuck in gates and require GM assistance to get out anymore though. Eternally grateful for that fix. It'll change again of course. Many more times. Don't get too attached to what you think you know about null would be my advice. A few years from now some < 2year old tool bag is going to tell you you know nothing about null. Promise.
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Prez21
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:28:00 -
[187] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Malphilos wrote: And all of that could be resolved with a revision to the current movement mechanics.
Imagine instead of the dozens to hundreds of man hours setting up to cross the entirety of the universe, minutes to a perhaps a dozen man hours to the big fight, because no one is going that far and the fights are there. What's the point of the huge napfest except to preserve that ginormous logistical chain?
Smaller, more frequent and more involving fights. A more open 0.0. More targets.
What's not to like?
The CFC isn't all blue to each other because we're afraid of another entity taking our space. We're allies because we (usually) get along fantastically. We're a big dysfunctional family, even when we shoot each other its friendly. And we shoot each other a lot. FA, I'm lookin' at you.
I love these comments, "were not blue cause we like to blob its just we love each other so much" you probably dont know 95% of your allies, if your leader reset one of them tomorrow you would probably be saying how much you couldnt wait to shoot them anyway, ive seen it happen all the time, you just want to play on easy mode dont pretend otherwise. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
160
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:30:00 -
[188] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote:So what you are saying is you want it to take 3-4 hours for a fleet to travel through nullsec, each way.
And what makes you think this will create more fights? And fights would be shorter since reinforcements would take hours as well, there'd be no point.
When we cross the galaxy quickly it is because it was setup days, if not weeks, in advance. Each jump calculated in advance, someone flew to each location to setup a safe POS and get a cyno going.
Impromptu hot drops need to be in a very short range, depending on what you are hot dropping. A standard fleet needs a titan bridge (so 60b and a lot of training) and has the range of about a region. A carrier can skip over a region (so ~1.5b and over a year of training). Both of these assume good skills. Black ops hotdrops have limited range as well.
You can simply look at the map (average players in space) to see if there is a hostile camp or hotdrop ready to go. Hot drops are annoying but it's part of the game. I'm sorry you lost your tengu to a bunch of bombers or whatever but HTFU.
Edit:
Also I think this is backwards. We need to allow more cynos, I think covert cynos need to be allowed in 0.8 and lower. This would add great fun to highsec warfare.
-
In addition, capitals and super capitals should be able to use stargates like a cyno. They get near them, just like any other ship, and click jump. Instead of the gate activating it downloads the information for the destination gate and uses the jump drive to jump to it. This still consumes fuel (and ends up consuming more because it's not a straight line if you are jumping more than 1 system).
This doesn't make travel safer since if you jumped into a bubble or got pointed a capital could not use the gate because they need the use of their jump drive. Again, since the use of a JD is required this would not allow them to enter jammed systems either.
How exactly do I see a "hot drop ready to go"?
I mean are you ********?
Quote: I'm sorry you lost your tengu to a bunch of bombers or whatever but HTFU.
Don't you mean 10 Titans hotdropped when a PL or Goon moron engaged a huge fleet of ships cause he knows they gotta run or he howls for the CYNO and a fleet that is 20 jumps away for normal people arrives in less than three minutes to bail his moronic ass out?
Cause, you know, any Goon or PL officer should be able to attack any "low" players... including 100+ man corporations... anywhere in complete safety. Anything less than complete safety and they cry like little girls.
Maybe you should HTFU. |
Joe Skellington
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:31:00 -
[189] - Quote
Gogela wrote:
Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics.
Ummm people still use this stuff in null, what are you talking about?
-á-á |\__/|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \ |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
160
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:35:00 -
[190] - Quote
Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.
You mean you can go from SOMEWHERE in High to SOMEWHERE in Null.
Well, I think that is a GREAT solution to Jump Drives. Whenever you jump your go to a random system in the direction you jumped in. But why should you have control of direction? Wormhole people don't.
No, I think it would be better for you to just appear at some RANDOM null system. Yeah. Let's do that.
So, so stupid. |
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Joe Skellington
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:37:00 -
[191] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives. You mean you can go from SOMEWHERE in High to SOMEWHERE in Null. Well, I think that is a GREAT solution to Jump Drives. Whenever you jump your go to a random system in the direction you jumped in. But why should you have control of direction? Wormhole people don't. No, I think it would be better for you to just appear at some RANDOM null system. Yeah. Let's do that. So, so stupid.
Not really, that's what navigation computers are for, wormholes are random anomalies not generated from a navigation computer. Derp. -á-á |\__/|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \ |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:00:00 -
[192] - Quote
I remember the convoys of Bestowers (escorted) coming in and out of Fountain in the old days. Good days.
If Eve was not horribly broken back then as compared to now (you have no idea really), it would have really promoted regionalism. But so many problems compounded each other and we first got the super highways, then smuggler gates, then cynos.
It has made the cluster a very small place. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka |
Joe Skellington
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:03:00 -
[193] - Quote
Karash Amerius wrote:I remember the convoys of Bestowers (escorted) coming in and out of Fountain in the old days. Good days.
If Eve was not horribly broken back then as compared to now (you have no idea really), it would have really promoted regionalism. But so many problems compounded each other and we first got the super highways, then smuggler gates, then cynos.
It has made the cluster a very small place.
Perhaps CCP plans on fixing that by expanding the universe? I would hope. -á-á |\__/|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \ |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
650
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:21:00 -
[194] - Quote
So uh, when are we having the jump drives removed again? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
O'Sheagada
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:28:00 -
[195] - Quote
I would entertain the OPs ideas |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
730
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:28:00 -
[196] - Quote
Joe Skellington wrote:Gogela wrote:
Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics.
Ummm people still use this stuff in null, what are you talking about? Only if you are poor and don't have any friends with a jump freighter. I used to have to join my corp for convoy duty once a week. We would get a fleet together to escort freighters packed with minerals (mining was viable at the time) to HS and then another run back to null (with ships, ammo, POS's, and mods). One time we lost the whole convoy (amazing payday for those pirates I bet). That doesn't happen at all anymore. That's what I'm talking about.
Karash Amerius wrote:I remember the convoys of Bestowers (escorted) coming in and out of Fountain in the old days. Good days.
If Eve was not horribly broken back then as compared to now (you have no idea really), it would have really promoted regionalism. But so many problems compounded each other and we first got the super highways, then smuggler gates, then cynos.
It has made the cluster a very small place. Ha! Small universe I was thinking about Fountain when I wrote this post!
|
Joe Skellington
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:36:00 -
[197] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Joe Skellington wrote:Gogela wrote:
Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics.
Ummm people still use this stuff in null, what are you talking about? Only if you are poor and don't have any friends with a jump freighter. I used to have to join my corp for convoy duty once a week. We would get a fleet together to escort freighters to HS and then another run back to null. One time we lost the convoy. That doesn't happen at all anymore. That's what I'm talking about.
Even jumping with Jump Freighters we still used Logistics and recon, I lived in Providence awhile with CVA. Getting hot dropped by a neut wasn't un-common. Lots of intel channels still exist to monitor space. It sounded fun in the old days, but there is still a lot of intel and logistics going on. But maybe I'm just a know nothing noob. -á-á |\__/|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \ |
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
319
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:39:00 -
[198] - Quote
Gotta love people using "HTFU" in reference to mind-numbing and time-consuming tedium instead of combat and competition.
"GD, this is boring".
"HTFU, bro!"
******* idiots |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
730
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:43:00 -
[199] - Quote
Joe Skellington wrote:Gogela wrote:Joe Skellington wrote:Gogela wrote: Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics.
Ummm people still use this stuff in null, what are you talking about? Only if you are poor and don't have any friends with a jump freighter. I used to have to join my corp for convoy duty once a week. We would get a fleet together to escort freighters to HS and then another run back to null. One time we lost the convoy. That doesn't happen at all anymore. That's what I'm talking about. Even jumping with Jump Freighters I still used Logistics and recon, I lived in Providence awhile with CVA. Getting hot dropped by a neut wasn't un-common. Lots of intel channels still exist to monitor space. It sounded fun in the old days, but there is still a lot of intel and logistics going on. But maybe I'm just a know nothing noob. ...but CVA does that because they are efficient and want to move quickly, and they are more inclined to make risky moves in the interest if less work and faster movement. If you want to get to anywhere in EvE you slowboat your JF in HS to the closest lowsec system to your destination, then it's one jump to the closest low sec NPC non-kick-out station to your POS or Outpost, then one more jump and you are there. That is not the same risk factor or effort factor as the T1 freighter convoy. at all... If CVA wanted to they could limit risk in logistics to nothing at the expense of a little bit of time and effort. They just can't be bothered.
|
MeestaPenni
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
245
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:52:00 -
[200] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote:Gogela wrote:Do you even know what a scout is? Have you ever used one? There's no need in todays eve. There are no logistics. Proof you know nothing about nullsec. MeestaPenni wrote:Maybe some idea in between keeping it as it is and entirely removing jump gates?
How about reducing the accuracy of jump gates?
As an example; if I bookmark a can in a solar system, subsequent warps to that bookmark at "0" results in a wide range of accuracy relative to the total distance traveled. Yeah, I'll be within a certain distance of the can, but at what appear to be random spots within a sphere surrounding that can. And that's just a measure of AU's in a solar system. However, when I use a jumpgate, traveling distances measured in light years, I land within a sphere that is a relatively tiny target given the distance involved.
I guess a good analogy would be to stand 10 meters from a 2 cm target and reliably toss a small pebble within 5 cm of the target, versus, stand 100 meters from the same target and reliably land a small pebble within 15 cm of the target. The ratio of distance to accuracy doesn't intuitively make sense.
Make jumpgates a means to leave a system--aimed at a different system--but the arrival location a random spot within the solar system. So basically you want to go backwards and remove warp to 0?
Say what? Read my last sentence again. The "basically" is right there in it. A hint.....it's about jumping from system to system, and nothing about changing in-system warp.
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore. |
|
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:07:00 -
[201] - Quote
Honestly I'd rather we'd warped system to system instead of the gates thing, add a duration from a to b, it'll take forever to get from one side of the galaxy to the other. You might complain about force projection, but that works both ways. and as long as the cooldown to warp to system to system is lower than the time it gets to that system from wherever you can easily harass and run. Honestly in regards to todays force projection what can the enemy do? All the enemy does in todays wars is hit and run, harassment etc.
And 0.0 is gates, stations and pos's anyhow for combat. They would also have to have contingents for far away systems if they so want it. But that's just my two cents. As for jumping I'd say get rid of the need for a cyno, the more movement a ship of any class choose the more one will have to watch their boarders, it's a double bladed sword, but it would force allocation of resources.
Would make Lowsec potentially popular too, given you can't take it's sov, it's a perfect nest of assholes to come in **** something up and run before people arrive.
edit: that said I hope the sov revamp and structural integrity is set up in such a way that makes attacking systems worth while outside the lone ratter. "Oh, you can't help that," said the troll: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" -ásaid the forumwarrior. "You must be," said the troll, "or you wouldn't have come here." |
Kriegman
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:01:00 -
[202] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Okay, using a secret jump planning tool, I've measured out how many jumps it would take to get from the northernmost system, 3KNA-N in Branch, to the southernmost system, LX5K-W in Paragon Soul, using a Jump Drive Calibration 5 Carrier, which has the longest jump range of any jump capable ship.
It is 7 jumps.
Now, if we were to use a different ship, like a Titan, it is 17 jumps. That is the maximum. Both of these however, require a metric fuckton of fuel, will require cynos placed in potentially hostile systems, and everything.
So it would be a total of 17 cynos from one side of the other for a Jump Portaled subcap fleet, requiring more fuel than cargo space on all the ships involved.
Edit: Here is the route involved: Titan - 5/4 Route: 3KNA-N -> BWI1-9 -> JTAU-5 -> Y-4CFK -> QPO-WI -> XD-TOV -> Passari -> Tunudan -> Decon -> Tararan -> Y9-MDG -> 2-TEGJ -> G-ME2K -> O5Y3-W -> ZG8Q-N -> C9N-CC -> 5AQ-5H -> LX5K-W 17 Jumps, Fuel: 70510 Round Trip: 141020
Using goon GARPA I see. That's a secret spy tool and your PC has been infected with a trojan. You are welcome... |
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
190
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:56:00 -
[203] - Quote
If we must have gates, they should be points of debarkation into another system. As someone else all ready stated, when you do jump into the new system it is in a random location. That would help put at end to gate camping and allow more people to move from high sec into null sec - and according to the people playing in those areas that is what they want - more people in null and low. As the game is set up now that is not going to happen with the current mechanics of how gates work. |
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:58:00 -
[204] - Quote
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:If we must have gates, they should be points of debarkation into another system. As someone else all ready stated, when you do jump into the new system it is in a random location. That would help put at end to gate camping and allow more people to move from high sec into null sec - and according to the people playing in those areas that is what they want - more people in null and low. As the game is set up now that is not going to happen with the current mechanics of how gates work.
Nobody cares about players making solo incursions into lowsec or nullsec.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
652
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:02:00 -
[205] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:If we must have gates, they should be points of debarkation into another system. As someone else all ready stated, when you do jump into the new system it is in a random location. That would help put at end to gate camping and allow more people to move from high sec into null sec - and according to the people playing in those areas that is what they want - more people in null and low. As the game is set up now that is not going to happen with the current mechanics of how gates work. Nobody cares about players making solo incursions into lowsec or nullsec. We don't really need whiny carebears wandering about. Please be aware of how to say alive before randomly jumping your carrier somewhere.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:04:00 -
[206] - Quote
You forgot about jump clones also making instant travel across the galaxy possible. Personally I think you should only be able to use them in the same station as you are without any delays which would allow fast clone switching for the different implants you have.
Would also have the impact in making sov entities compete and interact with their neighbours more instead of shifting around the galaxy at a moments notice fighting for some far off tech moon 10,000 jumps away as soon as the pos timer comes out. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
652
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:13:00 -
[207] - Quote
Terranid Meester wrote:You forgot about jump clones also making instant travel across the galaxy possible. Personally I think you should only be able to use them in the same station as you are without any delays which would allow fast clone switching for the different implants you have.
Would also have the impact in making sov entities compete and interact with their neighbours more instead of shifting around the galaxy at a moments notice fighting for some far off tech moon 10,000 jumps away as soon as the pos timer comes out. Don't you mean titan and jump bridges?
People move from their staging to where ever via those, usually we wouldn't have jump clones at every possibly attack vector. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:19:00 -
[208] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:If we must have gates, they should be points of debarkation into another system. As someone else all ready stated, when you do jump into the new system it is in a random location. That would help put at end to gate camping and allow more people to move from high sec into null sec - and according to the people playing in those areas that is what they want - more people in null and low. As the game is set up now that is not going to happen with the current mechanics of how gates work. Nobody cares about players making solo incursions into lowsec or nullsec.
No what you're saying is, you like to whine that more people are not in null and low sec. Suggestions are and ideals are being put forth to bring more people into those areas and all you do is whine more. Either you want more people in null and low sec or you don't. Which is it going to be?
|
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:20:00 -
[209] - Quote
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Either you want more people in null and low sec or you don't. Which is it going to be?
False dichotomy.
Next.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
652
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:27:00 -
[210] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Either you want more people in null and low sec or you don't. Which is it going to be? False dichotomy. Next. Want more good players.
Oh wait, goons are bad at eve aren't they, crap... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
|
Saia Tae Arragosa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:30:00 -
[211] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:Either you want more people in null and low sec or you don't. Which is it going to be? False dichotomy. Next.
Sorry, no it isn't. We are constantly haranged by null and low sec players about the lack of people migrating to those areas. So...either you are open to discuss suggestions on how to do that - or you continue to be non-inclusive. There is no grey area here. Either you are for more people moving into 0.0 and low sec space or you are just whining to be a part of the herd. |
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:34:00 -
[212] - Quote
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:So...either you are open to discuss suggestions on how to do that - or you continue to be non-inclusive. .
I am open to discuss suggestions on how to do that.
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
316
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:52:00 -
[213] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:See, the problem isn't the blob and jump drives. There is none really, trust me.
The problem is you and the fact that you let your defense stagnate so your little Sov-Fortress of Solitude let a pest of a little cyno frig get passed you and then it brought in more vermin. That is your problem, your inability to defend your home from vermin. You are in fact the creator of your own demise, so perhaps instead of bitching how someone figured out how to use game mechanics to their advantage you need to figure out how to use the game mechanics to your advantage.
Want an amazing example of how to use game mechanics of how they existed and to win with them? Titan XL gun tracking, fitting mostly tracking mods, using tackle ships and lol-targeting lasers against the fact the other guy never brought titans. Amazing huh, adapting that mechanic of a massive ship that couldn't track on its own but using fleet tackle and then putting those massive amounts of titans in big large fleets. The other guy, had his chance to stop the titans from being built (that was their first mistake, not taking them out of action during construction), then they continued to use the time honored tradition of massive numbers of blob battleships, why the other guy cut down on the blob and just brought a force multiplier of titans that did the job just as well.
But as usual, the whiners couldn't cope of dealing with titan XL guns and would not admit that it was their fault for not adapting to the new fleet doctrine of EVE. Really, the best counter to a Titan XL gun is certainly not flying another battleship, but hopping into a cap ship. CCP had to dumb down titans for the whiners since they couldn't cope that their battleship tanks failed, but those whiners are the same dudes who say that hulk pilots need to cope with getting ganked by Titans destroyers by not flying battleships against Titans fitting tanks. (<-- me pointing out the fact that some people can't handle something but the same thing no longer applies to them when they tell hulk pilots how to handle the problem. Funny that)
Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself.
So much wonderful mad.
Pathetic Legion, best Legion is pathetic.
Post with your main, or better yet, just don't post.
Whinging little 3l33t-kid prat. Braaaaaaaiiin... |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1468
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:15:00 -
[214] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Elise DarkStar wrote:Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:If we must have gates, they should be points of debarkation into another system. As someone else all ready stated, when you do jump into the new system it is in a random location. That would help put at end to gate camping and allow more people to move from high sec into null sec - and according to the people playing in those areas that is what they want - more people in null and low. As the game is set up now that is not going to happen with the current mechanics of how gates work. Nobody cares about players making solo incursions into lowsec or nullsec. We don't really need whiny carebears wandering about. Please be aware of how to say alive before randomly jumping your carrier somewhere.
Don't you want more PVP?
After all, if someone is mining in high sec, and they are AFK, alt-tabbed, or Semi AFK, and therefore must die for being complacent, how is it OK then to have systems that are deserted and never see so much as a patrol?
What are gate campers doing sitting there all day like miners? Are they alt-tabbed? Semi-AFK? Should not they die for their sins against EvE Online?
Perhaps the "carebears" who take a plunge into a low sec system via dialed in warp would no longer be carebears, for having not died in a camp, and being told to go back to high sec or WoW, would have to be sought out, hunted out, and removed, during which time, given a "chance" to survive in a game, and taking those chances, would no longer be carebears.
And you would have less people to hate.
I almost feel sorry for you.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
653
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:27:00 -
[215] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I almost feel sorry for you. Don't. I'm a goon, that might implicate you of being an alt of me.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
918
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:30:00 -
[216] - Quote
Effort; the Kriptonite of null residents.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
163
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:46:00 -
[217] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Terranid Meester wrote:You forgot about jump clones also making instant travel across the galaxy possible. Personally I think you should only be able to use them in the same station as you are without any delays which would allow fast clone switching for the different implants you have.
Would also have the impact in making sov entities compete and interact with their neighbours more instead of shifting around the galaxy at a moments notice fighting for some far off tech moon 10,000 jumps away as soon as the pos timer comes out. Don't you mean titan and jump bridges? People move from their staging to where ever via those, usually we wouldn't have jump clones at every possibly attack vector.
But you do have normal clone bays and all you have to do is set your medical clone to where-ever you want to go and self-destruct your pod to get there.
This is also broken. You should only be able to set your medical clone to an in region medical bay. Of course it should stay there if you leave the region but this is far less broken. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
970
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:48:00 -
[218] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Don't you want more PVP?
After all, if someone is mining in high sec, and they are AFK, alt-tabbed, or Semi AFK, and therefore must die for being complacent, how is it OK then to have systems that are deserted and never see so much as a patrol?
What are gate campers doing sitting there all day like miners? Are they alt-tabbed? Semi-AFK? Should not they die for their sins against EvE Online? No, gate campers are not AFK. Usually we have scouts out in surrounding systems hunting for targets, and if you wish us to die for our sins by all means have at it. We are in lawless space after all.
Actually I'm also quite well known for having a habit of scanning for rated complexes, mainly because an FC once noticed my alt jump into a system and begin scanning. Whilst we were in the middle of a fleet fight. but I am an incurable hoarder of space gold.
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Perhaps the "carebears" who take a plunge into a low sec system via dialed in warp would no longer be carebears, for having not died in a camp, and being told to go back to high sec or WoW, would have to be sought out, hunted out, and removed, during which time, given a "chance" to survive in a game, and taking those chances, would no longer be carebears. Yes, they would still be care bears. And they would still be high sec care bears, because low sec would no longer be low sec.
If you have an issue that involves safe space being almost as valuable, expansive and endless in resources as unsafe space, then the solution is not to make the unsafe space more like the safe space. The solution is to make safe space less valuable, less vast and begin to limit resources.
Preferably by limiting resources to genuine newbies.
All you are proposing is to lower the learning curve for Eve, because some players can't be bothered to put any effort in. The issue being that Eve is a niche game, it survives due to a hardcore fanbase that are extremely loyal, and are extremely loyal due to it's reputation as a difficult and challenging game. The idea of overtly lowering the skill cap for Eve is financial suicide for CCP.
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:And you would have less people to hate.
I almost feel sorry for you. You realize this is a game right?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Andrey Wartooth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:51:00 -
[219] - Quote
Kriegman wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Okay, using a secret jump planning tool, I've measured out how many jumps it would take to get from the northernmost system, 3KNA-N in Branch, to the southernmost system, LX5K-W in Paragon Soul, using a Jump Drive Calibration 5 Carrier, which has the longest jump range of any jump capable ship.
It is 7 jumps.
Now, if we were to use a different ship, like a Titan, it is 17 jumps. That is the maximum. Both of these however, require a metric fuckton of fuel, will require cynos placed in potentially hostile systems, and everything.
So it would be a total of 17 cynos from one side of the other for a Jump Portaled subcap fleet, requiring more fuel than cargo space on all the ships involved.
Edit: Here is the route involved: Titan - 5/4 Route: 3KNA-N -> BWI1-9 -> JTAU-5 -> Y-4CFK -> QPO-WI -> XD-TOV -> Passari -> Tunudan -> Decon -> Tararan -> Y9-MDG -> 2-TEGJ -> G-ME2K -> O5Y3-W -> ZG8Q-N -> C9N-CC -> 5AQ-5H -> LX5K-W 17 Jumps, Fuel: 70510 Round Trip: 141020 Using goon GARPA I see. That's a secret spy tool and your midpoint "cynos belogs to us" now. You are welcome...
The trap has been sprung.
Heh, see what I did there? |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1470
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:59:00 -
[220] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Don't you want more PVP?
After all, if someone is mining in high sec, and they are AFK, alt-tabbed, or Semi AFK, and therefore must die for being complacent, how is it OK then to have systems that are deserted and never see so much as a patrol?
What are gate campers doing sitting there all day like miners? Are they alt-tabbed? Semi-AFK? Should not they die for their sins against EvE Online? No, gate campers are not AFK. Usually we have scouts out in surrounding systems hunting for targets, and if you wish us to die for our sins by all means have at it. We are in lawless space after all. Actually I'm also quite well known for having a habit of scanning for rated complexes, mainly because an FC once noticed my alt jump into a system and begin scanning. Whilst we were in the middle of a fleet fight. but I am an incurable hoarder of space gold. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Perhaps the "carebears" who take a plunge into a low sec system via dialed in warp would no longer be carebears, for having not died in a camp, and being told to go back to high sec or WoW, would have to be sought out, hunted out, and removed, during which time, given a "chance" to survive in a game, and taking those chances, would no longer be carebears. Yes, they would still be care bears. And they would still be high sec care bears, because low sec would no longer be low sec. If you have an issue that involves safe space being almost as valuable, expansive and endless in resources as unsafe space, then the solution is not to make the unsafe space more like the safe space. The solution is to make safe space less valuable, less vast and begin to limit resources. Preferably by limiting resources to genuine newbies.All you are proposing is to lower the learning curve for Eve, because some players can't be bothered to put any effort in. The issue being that Eve is a niche game, it survives due to a hardcore fanbase that are extremely loyal, and are extremely loyal due to it's reputation as a difficult and challenging game. The idea of overtly lowering the skill cap for Eve is financial suicide for CCP. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:And you would have less people to hate.
I almost feel sorry for you. You realize this is a game right?
Do you realize you just posted the standard list of platitudes of lowsec carebears? It looks like you just averaged out the wording of a random collection of nullsec lamentations and pasted it in. Are you actually reading the thread?
|
|
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:06:00 -
[221] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Do you realize you just posted the standard list of platitudes of lowsec carebears? It looks like you just averaged out the wording of a random collection of nullsec lamentations and pasted it in. Are you actually reading the thread?
lol you got internetspaceshipsforumpoaned
Them: We want more people to want to do A
You: Then change A to B, and more people will do B
Me: WOLOLOLOLOL YER ******* STOOPID
|
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
970
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:20:00 -
[222] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Do you realize you just posted the standard list of platitudes of lowsec carebears? It looks like you just averaged out the wording of a random collection of nullsec lamentations and pasted it in. Are you actually reading the thread?
Can't dismiss my arguments with logic or reasoning? Quick, post a reply that doesn't actually amount to anything!
Cool story bro.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
316
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:42:00 -
[223] - Quote
Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.
Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left.
For ****'s sakes...
Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing. There is no Dana Goon, there is only BoB. |
Andrey Wartooth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:53:00 -
[224] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives. Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left. For ****'s sakes...Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing.
Translation: Nerf teh goonies, but please leave my wormholes alone! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
655
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:56:00 -
[225] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives. Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left. For ****'s sakes...Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing. Actually freighters being as massive as they are, how easy is it to fit a freighter through a wormhole, anyway? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
317
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:00:00 -
[226] - Quote
Andrey Wartooth wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives. Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left. For ****'s sakes...Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing. Translation: Nerf teh goonies, but please leave my wormholes alone!
Because sov-null and wormholes are no different, either.
Stick to trolling and your junior highschool level chest-beating, goontard, leave discussions of wormholes for the adults.
There is no Dana Goon, there is only BoB. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
317
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:53:00 -
[227] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives. Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left. For ****'s sakes...Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing. Actually freighters being as massive as they are, how easy is it to fit a freighter through a wormhole, anyway?
Class 1 through 4 won't take one. Nor would most of the class 5s or 6s that the freighter's mass wouldn't account for most of its mass-limit with just one jump, IIRC.
Freighter Masses (Lightest ---> heaviest): Fenrir at 820,000t ----> Charon at 960,000t
So you want 1,000,000t per jump, minimum.
From my quick-and-dirty research-fu, there are only 4 types that will transit a freighter to zerosec (AFAIK exiting from any known- or worm-space system):
C248 (1.8mn t / jump, 2.1475mn t total maximum) K329 (same) S199 (1.35mn t / jump, 2.1475mn t total) V283 (1.00mn t / jump 2.1475mn t total) Z142 (1.45mn t / jump, 2.1475mn t total)
There aren't that many hi- and losec exit ones that can take 1mn t / single-jump, either, and if you're going through a "wormhole highway" to get between k-space systems, then you'd never know what your next hole can/can't take, again, until you warp on-grid with it, or again, where you'll ultimately end up once you find your k-space exit.
You won't know which type that hole you've probed out is, until you warp onto its grid, and it could just say K162 (generic exit-hole), and then all you'll have to go by is the "Show Info" window telling you in general terms where it goes, what its life-cycle's at, and if its had a significant amount of mass transitted it already.
So, no, wormholes don't need nerfing the way jump-drive force-projection does/the way jump-drive based logistics might, (still not sure where I stand on that, tbqfh) to address the stealth whine a-brewing here--because logistics/travel through them is not easy or quick, nor yet high-volume, and that's not even accounting for the player-generated risks of worm-space.
Oh, have I mentioned you can't light cynos in w-space, and no wormhole will admit/transit a super-capital, let alone a whole blob of them?
Happy probing! There is no Dana Goon, there is only BoB. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
918
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:52:00 -
[228] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Usually we have scouts out in surrounding systems hunting for targets
I bolded the part that made me lol.
Hunting you say? Calling you out on that one as you are full of ****. More like your scouts are in the surrounding systems spamming the scan button to make sure everyone that jumps into you guys is a ship that poses no threat at all. The very moment anything your scout reports that could possibly damage one of you gate campers, you haul ass off the gate to get safe.
No one is going to buy that hunting bullshit.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1471
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:15:00 -
[229] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Do you realize you just posted the standard list of platitudes of lowsec carebears? It looks like you just averaged out the wording of a random collection of nullsec lamentations and pasted it in. Are you actually reading the thread?
Can't dismiss my arguments with logic or reasoning? Quick, post a reply that doesn't actually amount to anything!Cool story bro.
How do I use logic and reasoning on mindless dogma? Might as well try to enlighten a medieval church and get the same results.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1471
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:21:00 -
[230] - Quote
Andrey Wartooth wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Rhealee wrote:If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.
I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives. Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left. For ****'s sakes...Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing. Translation: Nerf teh goonies, but please leave my wormholes alone!
Actually a WH once took my ship 78 jumps from deep null where a lone Russian carrier was ratting to a FW contested lowsec system 2 jumps from high.
But carriers and freighters?
Uh. No.
Battleships with plating have to offline them sometimes to get through and I had a Cyclone with shield extenders get "stuck" once though the second attempt worked for some reason.
To get a freighter to bridge from 0.0 to high sec using WHs you must find that very rare class 5 or 6 system with a WH to high that will allow it. In my travels I have only seen this 3 times. Most of the time a WH system bridging high and 0.0 is a class 2 or 3.
Lyrrashae's research is mostly correct - sometimes a strange or rare WH will pop up, but you can end up waiting weeks for one of those.
(I have). |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
657
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:47:00 -
[231] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:How do I use logic and reasoning on mindless dogma? Might as well try to enlighten a medieval church and get the same results. Burned at the stake?
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:54:00 -
[232] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: What you and a few others are worried about is your power projection being nerfed. You are afraid that in order to find conflict you will need to look more closer to where you live instead of on the other side of the galaxy. You are afraid of effort. You are afraid that "Push button, receive PvP" will go away. You are afraid that you will not be able to blob every threat. You are afraid of actually living in the territory you claim sov in. You are afraid of actually doing things proactively to protect assets in space like POS's and other things. You are afraid of having risk when you carebear.
You are scared of the unknown.
You understand only the half of it and that not fully too.
Unknown? I was in 0.0 back in the day when jump bridges had barely been introduced and POS ping-pong was the way to conquer a system.
Power projection as you claim it, is the reason that 0.0 sov now changes a lot faster than before. Back in the day once an alliance built the initial infrastructure all they had to do was gatecamping at the choke points to make their turf completely safe.
Now this is no longer true. And that happened with the cynos.
You also disregard the fact that the mindless notion of yours "push buttan. receive pvp" requires a considerable logistical effort that makes that final move possible.
But the real cause you are whining about jump drives and jump bridges has to do with the fact that you now have to put a lot more effort to find a target, other than just sitting idle at a gate waiting for the prey to fall on your hands. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
660
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:00:00 -
[233] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Marlona Sky wrote: What you and a few others are worried about is your power projection being nerfed. You are afraid that in order to find conflict you will need to look more closer to where you live instead of on the other side of the galaxy. You are afraid of effort. You are afraid that "Push button, receive PvP" will go away. You are afraid that you will not be able to blob every threat. You are afraid of actually living in the territory you claim sov in. You are afraid of actually doing things proactively to protect assets in space like POS's and other things. You are afraid of having risk when you carebear.
You are scared of the unknown.
You understand only the half of it and that not fully too. Unknown? I was in 0.0 back in the day when jump bridges had barely been introduced and POS ping-pong was the way to conquer a system. Power projection as you claim it, is the reason that 0.0 sov now changes a lot faster than before. Back in the day once an alliance built the initial infrastructure all they had to do was gatecamping at the choke points to make their turf completely safe. Now this is no longer true. And that happened with the cynos. You also disregard the fact that the mindless notion of yours "push buttan. receive pvp" requires a considerable logistical effort that makes that final move possible. But the real cause you are whining about jump drives and jump bridges has to do with the fact that you now have to put a lot more effort to find a target, other than just sitting idle at a gate waiting for the prey to fall on your hands. I'm actually wondering if maybe his little roam got hotdropped by PL or something.
They have it all worked out to an art. Amazing what they can do with a supercapital fleet and some cyno alts.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
MortisLegati
Caldari War Materiel
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 22:49:00 -
[234] - Quote
Andski wrote:Jump drives are not a problem. The fact that any ship can light a cyno is.
One small little glimmer of light in a 12-page thread of rage and crying. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4226
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:53:00 -
[235] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Hey, now it's your corp turn to be schooled about "you can't have pie and eat it". Is it tedious? Sure, in the same manner it's awful to fit a massive tank on an Hulk. Yet miners are schooled about go that way or the highway, right?
it'd be our turn to be "schooled" if they were actually changing jump drives, which ain't happening
now, if they were nerfing jump drives - which they are not - we'd adapt and do lame freighter convoys, but if you think that'd create ~fights~ you're out of your mind "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
204
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 02:51:00 -
[236] - Quote
Shian Yang wrote:Do you know the relevant joins? From what I can see there might be approximately 2600 odd of them, but that would be a naive assumption. Even if it is though, the number of low and null-sec systems outnumber high-sec by a reasonable percentage. Sorry, forgot I posted in this thread. No, unfortunately, I don't know the relevant JOINs. I used to have the db dump on my laptop but I removed it because work **** was taking up too much space.
What will probably work is doing a JOIN on the constellation table and excluding any 0.0 systems that are in "unknown" constellations. Someone else might have a better way, but I'm positive that will produce the desired result. +1 in local |
Fatbear
Starwinders The Unwilling.
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 11:37:00 -
[237] - Quote
MortisLegati wrote:Andski wrote:Jump drives are not a problem. The fact that any ship can light a cyno is. One small little glimmer of light in a 12-page thread of rage and crying.
Was just thinking exactly the same thing. Too easy to argue over sense though. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
954
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 06:46:00 -
[238] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:MortisLegati wrote:Andski wrote:Jump drives are not a problem. The fact that any ship can light a cyno is. One small little glimmer of light in a 12-page thread of rage and crying. Was just thinking exactly the same thing. Too easy to argue over sense though.
I talked about this at least over a year ago. Any idea presented by me or anyone else was meet with tears about MY PRECIOUS SANDBOX!
Even a sandbox has walls and the ones for this sandbox need some work.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
954
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 06:47:00 -
[239] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:You understand only the half of it and that not fully too.
Oh really?
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Unknown? I was in 0.0 back in the day when jump bridges had barely been introduced and POS ping-pong was the way to conquer a system.
Yes I fully remember those days as well. I was in 0.0 before jump bridges were even an idea in someone's head from CCP. That system (the ping pong) was terrible.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Power projection as you claim it, is the reason that 0.0 sov now changes a lot faster than before. Back in the day once an alliance built the initial infrastructure all they had to do was gatecamping at the choke points to make their turf completely safe.
There is many issues with power projection and claiming territory. Usually once a defender starts to lose a few systems, especially a couple key systems that they occupy, they almost never recover. A cascade if you will.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Now this is no longer true. And that happened with the cynos.
You also disregard the fact that the mindless notion of yours "push buttan. receive pvp" requires a considerable logistical effort that makes that final move possible.
The notion, if you will, is that there is many points of view on what is considered effort, victory, pvp, etc. Some view effort as a pain in the ass and want nothing to do with it. What one persons garbage is another treasure. So while one guy says that having to do 'something' to create a situation for pvp, another will say that they do not play a game for it to become like a job for them. So having to perform the same task is too much for them and they want it change/removed/made super easy.
Logistics in its current form is a flat out joke. It is. No way can you try and pretty it up like it takes all kinds of work, because it simply does not. Now a large entity can overload a very small handful of people with all the logistics and for those few unlucky bastards, it is a major pain in the ass and a **** ton of work.
There is two issues there. Making a few do something that is not fun for an entity of (insert massive number here). So you take something terrible and amplify it. So yeah, if you do it that way, it sucks. You will never find any post of mine that says logistics should not be fun. Yes CCP should have a look at why no one likes to do freighter runs. Why with just a couple of scouts they can easily avoid conflict. With that in mind it becomes a simple choir. A task that will not net action because those moving the goods simply do not want action. They just want to get their **** to where they live and that is that. Why? Because if they get jumped, that freighter will most likely die every time. It will be blobbed to hell and back. Again, a lot of different things that involve logistics ranging from turning it into something people will not cringe when they have to do it, to the escort actually have a chance of fighting off the raiders and getting the goods delivered.
Please keep in mind I am not wanting people to be forced to do something terrible. People pay money to enjoy a game and enjoy it they should.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:But the real cause you are whining about jump drives and jump bridges has to do with the fact that you now have to put a lot more effort to find a target, other than just sitting idle at a gate waiting for the prey to fall on your hands.
I really don't think you have any idea why I have beef with jump drives and jump bridges. Before the jump bridge nerf, yeah, those were out of control. When an entire super block NAP train coalition can move entire armadas of fleets five regions away in ten minutes without every having to take a gate; things are ****** up.
Finally, I ******* hate gate camps. Specifically camps that are in no way there to protect any assets or anything like that. Even more specifically, a vast majority of gate campers are extreme pussies. They will have a scout in each direction and if anything shows up on scan/jumps in local with scout that might present a hint of a threat; those ~elite~ pvpers will be off the camped gate faster than a fat kid sprinting away from a salad. They are pussies. Sure some of you will say, "No. That is just them running a proper gate camp." I don't care. Those kinds of gate camps are run by cowards.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
734
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 07:00:00 -
[240] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Finally, I ******* hate gate camps. Specifically camps that are in no way there to protect any assets or anything like that. Even more specifically, a vast majority of gate campers are extreme pussies. They will have a scout in each direction and if anything shows up on scan/jumps in local with scout that might present a hint of a threat; those ~elite~ pvpers will be off the camped gate faster than a fat kid sprinting away from a salad. They are pussies. Sure some of you will say, "No. That is just them running a proper gate camp." I don't care. Those kinds of gate camps are run by cowards. I think gate camps are supposed to be like ganking ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1484
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 07:53:00 -
[241] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:
Finally, I ******* hate gate camps. Specifically camps that are in no way there to protect any assets or anything like that. Even more specifically, a vast majority of gate campers are extreme pussies. They will have a scout in each direction and if anything shows up on scan/jumps in local with scout that might present a hint of a threat; those ~elite~ pvpers will be off the camped gate faster than a fat kid sprinting away from a salad. They are pussies. Sure some of you will say, "No. That is just them running a proper gate camp." I don't care. Those kinds of gate camps are run by cowards.
The pussyness is highlighted in the fact that in several incidents I should have been PWNED horribly but the 5-6 outnumbering me broke off. Why? Because they could not be sure I wouldn't take at least one of them out in the process. And so, each one of them fearful of their stats, could not hold their team together and most of them ran off to get a bigger ship, thinking the others would do the tackle, but having the same fear, took a little longer before running off.
So they ran off in fear for their stats of their almighty killboard, when they could have taken my ship out in less than 20 seconds.
Their cowardly mindset however did spare my ship and the cargo hold full of 0.0 exploration goodies and sleeper loot.
So yeah, gate campers are the biggest pussies. Even suicide gankers have more cajone-factor.
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Xuixien
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 19:51:00 -
[242] - Quote
Quote:Eve is approximately 100 light years across total.
Taking into account stellar density (the average number of stars per x number of lightyears in any given area of space), New Eden is anywhere from 200 - 500 lightyears accross. Rabble Rabble!! |
Rikanin
Wargasm Inc
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 19:54:00 -
[243] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one day's worth of fun.
Remember, this is a game, not a job.
God help me I agree with a goon pet
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