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Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
129
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Posted - 2012.05.09 19:48:00 -
[91] - Quote
Eryn Velasquez wrote:HyperZerg wrote:Remove local und replace it with a list of players aktive in the system.
Or, remove local and give players the abilitiy to place anti-cloaking fields and sentry-guns.
Player need an intelligence tool to find out if they are in danger of getting killed or not. Direktional-scanner is far not enought. Most player want and need security in a game where you can loose something you have to "work" for to replace it. The theys before Concorde EVE only growed very slowly, but with concord the player-counts exploded [heard this form some older players].
Just think about, how much % of Eve will have more fun and how much % will have less fun if you remove local. If only 10% got more fun and 70% are really pissed of it indicates a bad decition. I totally agree that when local is nerfed/delayed, there has to be an upgraded scanning system. It should be an intelligent, user customizable tool, where i can define optical and/or acoustic alarms when certain players come within the scanable area. The current D-scan is'nt science fiction, it's a joke...
But see thats the whole problem, if we get a really great scanner if local is nerfed, it'll be just like having local So what would be the point of Removing Local??
Leave things as they are, its more logical then removing local, and then getting local back with an awesome scanner Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
23
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Posted - 2012.05.09 20:06:00 -
[92] - Quote
As a pure mission runner and miner (when not wanting to pay a ton of attention to the game), I strongly support the nerfing of local. Makes the game more interesting and the whole idea of just knowing who's in the system based on who shows up on "chat" is a little.. well.. silly. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
652
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Posted - 2012.05.09 20:16:00 -
[93] - Quote
Ironically, nerfing local would mean that cloaky camping would be pointless. As no one would know where you are unless they spotted you through a gate or whatever, you can't terrify people except by killing. Which wouldn't lock down systems for a whole day if you were just afk, since 3 hours later no one would care much.
Great for ganking, of course. Doubtless people would have to pay more attention. But really, the bots would have a much better time of it since they can presumably spam dscan and initiate warp the moment something that doesn't belong shows up. So you wouldn't really be greifing botters, just trying to gank people who pay less attention than a bit.. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Freggan
Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations Surely You're Joking
20
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Posted - 2012.05.09 22:41:00 -
[94] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Freggan wrote:Then if we agree player vs player means what massively multiplayer online game means then some people are going to be confused. Whats wrong with accepting the current intentions in all games at least till now that PVP is warfare orientated and MMOG is a lot of players is the same universe all playing together. I don't see what the definition of MMO has to do with anything. Nor do I understand what "warfare oriented" means or what it has to do with the definition of PvP. There is no essential difference between blowing up someone's ship or cornering the market on some mineral and raising its price through the roof. The only real consequence of either of those things is to make yourself some ISK or cost the other guy some ISK. In one case, there is a graphical representation of an explosion involved, and presumably that is the "warfare oriented" stuff you are talking about. I'm not sure if there is a universally agreed definition which says PvP has to involve bashing someone with a sword or shooting them with a blaster, but please point me to the authoritative source if you have one. For the purposes of Eve, though, I don't think restricting to combat is a useful definition, and it leads to a lot of confusion. But the current topic seems to be just one of semantics, and I don't see that it matters whether gankers are engaged in PvP by your restrictive definition. Quote:If you buy anything on the Market your ISK may or may not go to some rascal who uses it for PvP! Ergo, using the Market is PvP! No. Whether you use the market to further your combat is irrelevant. It is by using the market that you are engaging in PvP.
Not according to the thread starter. Everything is PvP to him because people use your spent ISK on PvP antics, which was the point I was trying to ridicule.[/quote] I see, I didn't catch that you were being sarcastic. Anyway, we're getting far away from the topic of the OP.[/quote]
The only way your banter works or is plausible is if you were born post-MMOG and did not care to find where online games have come from, considering the way mmo's started their life then a new element called PVP was added and advertised as player warefare. Understandably it is confusing when you look at it in context my suggestion is 1st getting your head out of bum then doing even the most basic of research online before you type so much drivel.
LoL ok ill edit and add all you have to do is type PVP in google and you will see the gist of what it is used to advertise, I can guarantee its not used to say "lets mine a roid together for PVP" |
Mathias Hex
131
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Posted - 2012.05.10 00:45:00 -
[95] - Quote
I see AFK ganking in your future I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k. |
SuperKawaiiDesuYo
1
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Posted - 2012.05.10 08:25:00 -
[96] - Quote
part A:Hit d-scan. a lot part B:Equip combat probe launcher. and scan a l ot Part C: aka slow down the pace of the game
freighter killing... how many ships do you have to spend to do that? you're just there to troll the ship most likely, thus who cares if you're trolled by having local/not making a profit(less douchy way of saying it is, it's a risk) if your concern is you can't make $ killing freighters, go do something else. whiny pirates are like college students saying they cant do what they want with their lives/carrer, even if it's a non-marketable skill like studying poetry for 4 years of your life lol
even so, you can just have a scout with your freighter- proceed to re-read at parts B&C at the top of this post.
Part D: fit your hulk with a proper shield tank with proper skills and use damage control II/shield extending rigs. have orca equip a large shield transporter and viola. + you can even overheat your tank if you catch it in time. solo gankers = less of a problem (need more destroyers at least)
really if you want to gank vs players, just make an alt. it starts with no negative security status so the people who check local a lot won't have you marked as a negative status player. (most of us slightly less autistic miners check local/mark -sec status with standings to keep track of easier) you even have two extra slots on your account. plus, did you know? you can delete them and make new ones! just gank until -5.0 and there you go! stick to 0.5 system security too, crappy concord response. if anything, local lets you know more easily when you show-info the miners and see "lol mining corp!" if Part D is in effect, doesn't really matter if the miner knows you're there or not. And seriously, most miners are too stupid to fit a DCII/shield rig/properly train shield skills.
i have no idea why null sec has local, but if you're so opposed to the idea of local, why not go to WH space. they usually fight back and are prepared though, probably something most people who like to gank aren't interested in. "fighting back" lol
p.s. bot = easily align -> part A -> hostile ship? "Warp drive activated" log out for a while/resume later/whatever. you're only wasting your time, not the bots. it probably has a "log out for x amount of time, resume at another bookmark/system"
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Francisco Bizzaro
95
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Posted - 2012.05.10 08:26:00 -
[97] - Quote
Freggan wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Freggan wrote:Then if we agree player vs player means what massively multiplayer online game means then some people are going to be confused. Whats wrong with accepting the current intentions in all games at least till now that PVP is warfare orientated and MMOG is a lot of players is the same universe all playing together. I don't see what the definition of MMO has to do with anything. Nor do I understand what "warfare oriented" means or what it has to do with the definition of PvP. Exceedingly simply put type PVP into google. If you find it being used to advertise mining together or doing anything together that is not "warfare orientated" I would be surprised. You will find PVP used to explain/advertise/entice players into a MMOG for the purpose of player vs player warfare whether that will be in a tank, part of a larger battle or singly. God forbid I ever have to turn to game advertisements as a sole source of truth. What a distorted reality that would be.
But literally expanded, PvP is "player against player" which does not specifically mention that the "against" has to take the form of "warfare oriented" anything. I interpret it as competitive play, and note that all aspects of Eve are competitive, most obviously through the market.
The only real consequence of "warfare oriented" activities in hi-sec is to gain or lose ISK (plus standings in the case of the aggressor in hi-sec), and ISK is the same point scoring system that the market and everything else in Eve uses as a measure of success. So I don't see that activities need to be singled out for special treatment simply because they are associated with explosion graphics.
And anyhow, as I've pointed out above, flying a hulk defensively denies targets to gankers, so that even if no shot is fired you have hampered their ability to do what they want to do. That is actually a combat PvP win by your "warfare oriented" definition and without any explosion.
So yeah, my interpretation of PvP is pretty broad. But I contend that it is the only useful one for a sandbox game like Eve.
At some level it's just a question of semantics. But it's also actually somewhat important for understanding how the game works. Confusion about the notion of PvP and PvE in this game leads miners and mission runners to feel entitled to special treatment in high-sec. (This is often because they import the definition of PvE from another game and try to apply it here.) Several threads started within the last week are driven by this confusion. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
21
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Posted - 2012.05.10 08:36:00 -
[98] - Quote
Can we please stop trying to fool ourselves the original poster and cronies wants this in order to "combat " bots? Please? They just want people to have even less of a chance to defend themselves.
People, not bots. |
Haas Tabris
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
16
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Posted - 2012.05.10 08:43:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Can we please stop trying to fool ourselves the original poster and cronies wants this in order to "combat " bots? Please? They just want people to have even less of a chance to defend themselves.
People, not bots. Hey Numbnuts, go read the post again. I want to nerf lowsec in order to kill 0.0 carebears. Like goons. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
21
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Posted - 2012.05.10 08:46:00 -
[100] - Quote
Haas Tabris wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Can we please stop trying to fool ourselves the original poster and cronies wants this in order to "combat " bots? Please? They just want people to have even less of a chance to defend themselves.
People, not bots. Hey Numbnuts, go read the post again. I want to nerf lowsec in order to kill 0.0 carebears. Like goons.
Hey Numbskull. What makes you think I was referring to you? If you were talking about low-sec then I obviously did not intend to include you. |
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liaxolox
Jol-Nar Industries Twilight Imperium
0
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Posted - 2012.05.10 21:33:00 -
[101] - Quote
SuperKawaiiDesuYo wrote: really if you want to gank vs players, just make an alt. it starts with no negative security status so the people who check local a lot won't have you marked as a negative status player. (most of us slightly less autistic miners check local/mark -sec status with standings to keep track of easier) you even have two extra slots on your account. plus, did you know? you can delete them and make new ones! just gank until -5.0 and there you go!
Recycling alts to avoid negative sec status will get you banned. |
Haas Tabris
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
16
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Posted - 2012.05.15 22:49:00 -
[102] - Quote
Shea Valerien wrote:As a pure mission runner and miner (when not wanting to pay a ton of attention to the game), I strongly support the nerfing of local. Makes the game more interesting and the whole idea of just knowing who's in the system based on who shows up on "chat" is a little.. well.. silly.
Another excellent reason for nerfing local. It's silly that our best intel system in the game is a chat channel, eh? |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
738
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 00:46:00 -
[103] - Quote
How will nerfing local benefit my desire to grief gankers? |
Ituhata Saken
Crimson Cross Destroyers
6
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Posted - 2012.05.16 00:55:00 -
[104] - Quote
It's a nice thought, but as many have mentioned, it will hardly affect the botters, and the trouble for gankers is that removing local becomes a double edged sword. Instead of clearing empty systems in the laborious search for ratters, you waste time checking belts and probing the system for anomolies, and without local you can't tell if there is a lookout in system for targets that may be one system over, and by then they have plenty of warning. |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
451
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Posted - 2012.05.16 01:01:00 -
[105] - Quote
Do it for no other reason that it makes sense. It makes sense and it will make things harder for everyone. More so for nulsec players. The harder anything is the better it will filter through people who are less able to do things. Ferox #1 |
A'lan Wolf
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:16:00 -
[106] - Quote
Mugged Yougot wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Saying that it is technically PvP because the materials are used to build ships that may or may not be used in PvP is like saying going to work is technically going to war because the taxes off your salary goes to the state, which maintains the armed forces which may or may not be involved in armed conflict. That is a bit far-fetched. Afaik, there is no 3rd World War at the moment. You take my argument and stretch it out beyond the implausible. If my tax-money are used to found various wars, I do not have any direct knowledge about it, and I certainly got no way to prevent it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you miners know that the ships you are supplying are used for PvP.
I'd like to see you pvp in a noctis, which is what i build and what i mine goes to that |
A'lan Wolf
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:18:00 -
[107] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Freggan wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP. Unless you mine in order to roll down the passenger window of your ship, and chuck the nuggets of ore at opposing players' ships. You are competing against other players for the finite resources and when you sell them on the market. Hence PvP. MMO's have mining and competing against others for profits etc, PVP is players vrs players directly not indirectly. Come on its bad enough pointing out the finer points of things let alone the blatantly obvious. Mining in Eve is PvP. Mining in WoW is not. The difference is one of those finer points. Anyhow, the only real consequences you can have in this game are economic. So as long as you are hindering someone else's ability to make ISK, you are engaged in PvP. So to return to the original question: Ganking is PvP. (and mining is too, whether or not you agree with me.)
How am i attacking other players when i mine? i dont attack other players no matter what my ship..i've never attacked another player ever..so how is my mining ship when used being used to attack other players??
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Torneach
Emrys Enterprises
108
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:20:00 -
[108] - Quote
At the very least, remove cloaked pilots from local, and make it so they can't see local either. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
356
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:21:00 -
[109] - Quote
A'lan Wolf wrote:How am i attacking other players when i mine? i dont attack other players no matter what my ship..i've never attacked another player ever..so how is my mining ship when used being used to attack other players??
by defacing the beauty that is new eden's asteroid belts eh |
Torneach
Emrys Enterprises
108
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
A'lan Wolf wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Freggan wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP. Unless you mine in order to roll down the passenger window of your ship, and chuck the nuggets of ore at opposing players' ships. You are competing against other players for the finite resources and when you sell them on the market. Hence PvP. MMO's have mining and competing against others for profits etc, PVP is players vrs players directly not indirectly. Come on its bad enough pointing out the finer points of things let alone the blatantly obvious. Mining in Eve is PvP. Mining in WoW is not. The difference is one of those finer points. Anyhow, the only real consequences you can have in this game are economic. So as long as you are hindering someone else's ability to make ISK, you are engaged in PvP. So to return to the original question: Ganking is PvP. (and mining is too, whether or not you agree with me.) How am i attacking other players when i mine? i dont attack other players no matter what my ship..i've never attacked another player ever..so how is my mining ship when used being used to attack other players??
Market competition, the ore/mins that you mine or the things that you produce affect supply, which in turn affects the prices and habits of the other people in the economy, both consumers and other producers.
Market PvP at its finest. |
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A'lan Wolf
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:22:00 -
[111] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.
- Warp to asteroid collection
- Target asteroids that someone else is mining
- Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
- Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle
Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP.
so that is what YOU do? personally i log on, go to an asteroid belt, if there is someone there i look at what theyre mining..then mine something else..never touch someone elses asteroids, thats just wrong..if theres noone there then i mine whatever i want thats there. So, how is that pvp??..please use your twisted perverted logic to excuse your version of mining towards what i do
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A'lan Wolf
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:25:00 -
[112] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.
- Warp to asteroid collection
- Target asteroids that someone else is mining
- Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
- Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle
Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP. I understand where you go with this, but it is stretching the meaning to far. You could also argue, that just logging into an MMO game, you are entering PvP. You compete with limited server capacity. You compete for latency.... Bla bla bla. You have to draw the line somewhere. o7
Aaahh, but what you have to realise is..some people will make any excuse to justify griefing or ganking behaviour, and if claiming ridiculously that everything up to and including logging into a game is pvp..then that makes them seem just like everyone else and that theyre justified in what they do
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knulla
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:37:00 -
[113] - Quote
I have wanted them to remove local since before wormholes. No delay nothing but the complete removal of local unless a person chat would be good enough. In ALL of eve. CSM's need to push this, it would benefit everyone in eve, every single player no matter what they do more so than keeping something else in place.
It would also add to the sense of traveling vast cool mysterious space than make you feel like you are in manhattan. That feeling is gone from WoW since vanilla and that same feeling is gone from EVE once a certain amount of players started playing, as in too many. But remove local and that will be restored and both carebears and pirates will rejoice! |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
738
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:41:00 -
[114] - Quote
Mining is PvP because you are competing for limited resources. It just so happens that we have not yet maxed out the possible number of miners.
Even ice could in theory deplete... you would just need so many miners that I think the system would crash. |
SuperKawaiiDesuYo
1
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Posted - 2012.05.16 03:54:00 -
[115] - Quote
liaxolox wrote:SuperKawaiiDesuYo wrote: really if you want to gank vs players, just make an alt. it starts with no negative security status so the people who check local a lot won't have you marked as a negative status player. (most of us slightly less autistic miners check local/mark -sec status with standings to keep track of easier) you even have two extra slots on your account. plus, did you know? you can delete them and make new ones! just gank until -5.0 and there you go!
Recycling alts to avoid negative sec status will get you banned. orly? it's not that i don't believe you, but i'm curious where you heard this. |
Fabulousli Obvious
State War Academy Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.05.16 14:14:00 -
[116] - Quote
SuperKawaiiDesuYo wrote:liaxolox wrote:
Recycling alts to avoid negative sec status will get you banned.
orly? it's not that i don't believe you, but i'm curious where you heard this.
Indeed. We all know this to be true, but you do have an interesting point.
I absolutely cannot find anything regarding this in print at all. Not here under the Suspension & Ban Policy: http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/banning.asp
And apparently this was being looked into in 2009 then fizzled: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1228021&page=1
Mayhaps this entire area needs to be looked at by CCP (as if they have nothing else on the burner).
Of all areas really, especially with the curent playstyles that are all the rage with the young ones , these exploits need to be LISTED and CLARIFIED.
Some sort of forgotten and lost DevBlog is insufficient. Last words:-á Either that wallpaper goes, or I do. ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900 |
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.05.16 16:03:00 -
[117] - Quote
I support this for totally different reasons. First off though, this would have no effect on botters, botters do not pay attention to local. Ever kill a botter and then watch his pod warp back and forth between station and astroid belt? I support this as a BUFF to nul sec and low sec. This would add magnitutides of fun and depth to pvp engagements. One will actually have to scout if they want to know enemy numbers, not just count reds in local. Nul-sec people have gotten far to lazy and reliant on local. Get rid of it!!! |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
2
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Posted - 2012.05.16 16:19:00 -
[118] - Quote
A'lan Wolf wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.
- Warp to asteroid collection
- Target asteroids that someone else is mining
- Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
- Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle
Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP. I understand where you go with this, but it is stretching the meaning to far. You could also argue, that just logging into an MMO game, you are entering PvP. You compete with limited server capacity. You compete for latency.... Bla bla bla. You have to draw the line somewhere. o7 Aaahh, but what you have to realise is..some people will make any excuse to justify griefing or ganking behaviour, and if claiming ridiculously that everything up to and including logging into a game is pvp..then that makes them seem just like everyone else and that theyre justified in what they do
It's a sandbox... you don't NEED to justify what you do, because you can do whatever the **** you want, regardless of who bitches.
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Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
400
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Posted - 2012.05.16 18:29:00 -
[119] - Quote
Haas Tabris wrote: It's almost a wet dream of mine.
You are a sad, strange, little man, and I bid you farewell. Adieu.
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