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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.11 22:39:00 -
[1]
Logistics → Fleet Command. HAC → Field Command. Recon → ...?
Let's fill some gaps, provide an upgrade path, and fix some other issues all at once.
Wish List:
- New, interesting, and specific anti-cap/supercap ewar.
- DDD a drag on the game
- Carrier RR circle jerk is lame.
- Dreads a bit too linear.
- Matar get the capital shaft for sh1zzle.
- No counter to remote ECM burst on fighters.
- No counter to stay-at-the POS carriers.
- Supercaps still really hard to tackle.
- T2 tier 2 BC's.
- Black ops needs more covert hulls.
- Vector for more hull diversity in fleet ops.
Fulfilling These Needs:
Counter command mods. Use gang-link derived hardware to hack/disrupt modules/subsystems. Time required to execute the attack. Effects, strength, duration, and time required are affected by skills, bonuses, and perhaps new mind links.
New hulls. Two variants per hull. One that fits three counter-command mods, has cloak bonuses, and gets counter-command bonuses. One that fits one counter-command mod and more pew-pew-ish bonuses.
Three effects per race with racial bonuses. Speed of attack/effect duration/strength of effects are balance points and trade-offs. Each race gets 1) situational module with minor effects but faster response time. 2) module-specific counter that overloads a module in use/cool down. 3) bread-winner that requires more time, but has longer duration and more potent effects.
Examples with lore and effects:
Matar Version: "Every day that the scales of combat grow heavier, the balance tips away from the Republic. A Republic relying on mobility is doomed to retreat." With that a Core-Complexion task force was assembled to merge the command hardware of the Hurricane with Matar propulsion and navigation expertise to turn brute force into a crippling liability.
1. Warp alignment speed percentage requirement increase. 2. Incapacitate jump portal generator. 3. Jump range reduction. (create stragglers and cause logistics nightmares)
Gallante Version: Increasingly annoyed at the amount of fighters using Gallante derived technology for hostile carriers, Duvolle labs set out to convert Myrmidon into the embodiment of Gallante drone expertise, complementing its already stellar drone performance with the final word in drone and fighter control.
1. Siege module targeting range/scan res penalty. 2. Incapacitate remote ECM burst. 3. Controlled/assigned fighters go neutral and will not respond to commands for some length of time.
Caldari Version: Faced with the implications of siege warfare on their combat philosophy, Caldari commanders demanded a new ship class that could stem the flow of battle, allowing their unparalleled shielding systems to wear out their opponents. Ishukone recognized the unused potential in the drake, and the design was commissioned in a secret signing.
3. Siege module stront requirement penalty 2. Incapacitate DDD mod. 1. Siege module damage mod penalty
Amarr Version: Faced with increasing technology export by pirate factions and the need to re-invent Amarr capacitor warfare, Khanid Innovation set out to ensure that those utilizing Amarr technology and strategy would wisely avoid attempting to turn it against the empire.
1. Turret capacitor use increase. 3. Incapacitate triage module. 2. RR cycle time/cap use increase.
Why new ewar? Webbing sieged dreads wouldn't exactly be fun now would it? Bigger recons are also something not many people would likely be interested in.
Why would the empires develop their own strongest counters? Because they have the best understanding of the technology and pretty much all races use a little bit of everything in one form or another. Oh yeah, and lets not forget that things that are good for the game get their own back-story =)
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.11 22:40:00 -
[2]
Reserved for followup and clarifications. |
Lissome Elan
501st Providence Light Defense Squadron
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Posted - 2009.05.12 00:58:00 -
[3]
Supporting a good idea.
Also, first!
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Klyria
Minmatar Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.12 01:18:00 -
[4]
I like your idea a lot, but this is in the wrong forum. You should really go post this over in Features and Ideas.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.12 15:32:00 -
[5]
Your idea is incredibly interesting, but it feels totally incomplete. Something along these lines could probably work, but I don't think this idea is in finished enough form to pass along to CCP. No support right now, but I'd love to see this come back in a month.
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.05.14 16:18:00 -
[6]
While it might be nice to have a bc sized covert ship, the focus on anti capital is foolish. When capitals are on the field, the only thing you use covert ships for is getting warp in points. Anything else will just be obliterated by the massive bs fleets and their cruiser and frig support. An anti command link sounds interesting, but too difficult to implement. I mean who does it effect? Everyone on grid NOT in your fleet? Is it usable in low sec? High? Get you concordoken much?
Not supported.
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Darkerz Reloaded
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.14 18:08:00 -
[7]
disable DD? lul
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.14 20:53:00 -
[8]
Edited by: NanDe YaNen on 14/05/2009 21:00:14
Originally by: Gaogan While it might be nice to have a bc sized covert ship, the focus on anti capital is foolish. When capitals are on the field, the only thing you use covert ships for is getting warp in points. Anything else will just be obliterated by the massive bs fleets and their cruiser and frig support. An anti command link sounds interesting, but too difficult to implement. I mean who does it effect? Everyone on grid NOT in your fleet? Is it usable in low sec? High? Not supported.
Targeted mods. RP-wise derived from gang-link hardware, but behave more like ecm that takes some time to achieve the jam etc. Amended to my second post.
Nobody ever said it was expected of any ship to be able to f' over a cap or a group of caps solo. Nobody is seriously asking for such a ship. As always, having your own support fleet of appropriate size is a pre-condition of being truly effective.
That said, locking ranges, if recons are taken as a model, will be greater than 200km with one sensor booster. If you can't use a covops cloak to get into a position that will let your T2 resisted BC derived hull survive 30s after decloaking and locking up a dread (instant?) you would be advised to find another ship, and you apparently didn't fly many recons (or encounter many falcons) to begin with.
Capitally focused and therefore only relevant outside of empire.
Hope that helps. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.05.15 02:49:00 -
[9]
Edited by: darius mclever on 15/05/2009 02:49:47
Originally by: NanDe YaNen Logistics → Fleet Command. HAC → Field Command. Recon → ...?
well isnt it: Recon → Blackops?
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.15 03:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: NanDe YaNen Logistics → Fleet Command. HAC → Field Command. Recon → ...?
well isnt it: Recon → Blackops?
Black Ops Reqs
Cloaking IV Jump Drive Cal IV Spaceship Command V Racial BS V
Nope :-( Field Commands require HAC IV Fleet Commands require Logistics IV
Recon pilots are definitely left out. If you train for a T2 cruiser that is a more specialized T1 cruiser, you are also preparing for a command ship unless you fly recons. Recons get nothing at the end of the rainbow. ---------------------------------------
Originally by: Red Raider A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.05.15 17:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
Originally by: NanDe YaNen Logistics → Fleet Command. HAC → Field Command. Recon → ...?
well isnt it: Recon → Blackops?
Black Ops Reqs
Cloaking IV Jump Drive Cal IV Spaceship Command V Racial BS V
Nope :-( Field Commands require HAC IV Fleet Commands require Logistics IV
Recon pilots are definitely left out. If you train for a T2 cruiser that is a more specialized T1 cruiser, you are also preparing for a command ship unless you fly recons. Recons get nothing at the end of the rainbow.
Well from the ship classes standpoint you got: (as example for caldari) Griffin -> Kitsune Blackbird -> Falcon/Rook Scorpion -> Widow
the BC class was always based on dps/gang support and that role is filled by their t2 counterparts quite nicely.
from the rp perspective adding hac/logistics into the prerequires for fieldcommand/fleetcommand ship makes sense as you will basically learn how to cover a certain part of the battle and then upgrade into a ship that gives your gang more support/bonuses as you gave before. you would normally expect people in commandships to be squad or wing commanders.
that said i am not sure there should be a BC based ewar platform.
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.18 16:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: darius mclever the BC class was always based on dps/gang support and that role is filled by their t2 counterparts quite nicely.
from the rp perspective adding hac/logistics into the prerequires for fieldcommand/fleetcommand ship makes sense as you will basically learn how to cover a certain part of the battle and then upgrade into a ship that gives your gang more support/bonuses as you gave before. you would normally expect people in commandships to be squad or wing commanders.
that said i am not sure there should be a BC based ewar platform.
As a HAC pilot, when you move to your respective command ship, you get a really good anti-support that uses more of the same medium weapons and survives DDD. It's a logical HAC upgrade.
As a logistics pilot, when you move to your respective command ship, you give a really solid boost to gang performance, usually with a defensive focus that enhances the role of logistics. It's what you graduate to as a logistics pilot.
As a recon pilot, recon is currently the end of the line.
On the other hand, we have a set of unused BC hulls. Unlike the tier 1 BC hulls, which have as a whole more defensive bonuses, the tier 2 hulls are a little beefier on stats and have more blatant damage oriented bonuses. Harby and Hurricane being the obvious examples. Tier 2 BC's, without stating specifics, should without a doubt be adapted into something more aggressive than the tier 1's.
What is a T2 tier 2 BC role? What is a Recon upgrade? Deimos is to Astarte as Arazu is to ......?
Do these questions not highlight the serendipity of a BC derived recon upgrade? |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.05.18 20:35:00 -
[13]
We need large or capital scale neuting or smartbombing or heatwarfare. Which in of itself will make it anti-capitals.
Large smartbombs + ship bonus heavy neuts + ship bonus and not a bhaalgorn lol. heat warfare. Slowly incap all ur enemy's modules. Something like.
Lets say Heat Battlecruiser. Directs heat into target ship.
Heat warfare lvl 5 means that your target needs thermodynamics 5 to be able to survive him. If he has lvl 4 his modules will slowly take damage. If at lvl 0 or 1. The ship will be fairly quickly disabled. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Jack Darkslayer
House Atreides Warriors
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Posted - 2009.05.18 20:54:00 -
[14]
I agree that we need T2 Tier 2 BCs. Doesn't make sense that they aren't there.
Think that this would would make for some very nice tactics on the field of battle. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.05.18 22:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
Originally by: darius mclever the BC class was always based on dps/gang support and that role is filled by their t2 counterparts quite nicely.
from the rp perspective adding hac/logistics into the prerequires for fieldcommand/fleetcommand ship makes sense as you will basically learn how to cover a certain part of the battle and then upgrade into a ship that gives your gang more support/bonuses as you gave before. you would normally expect people in commandships to be squad or wing commanders.
that said i am not sure there should be a BC based ewar platform.
As a HAC pilot, when you move to your respective command ship, you get a really good anti-support that uses more of the same medium weapons and survives DDD. It's a logical HAC upgrade.
As a logistics pilot, when you move to your respective command ship, you give a really solid boost to gang performance, usually with a defensive focus that enhances the role of logistics. It's what you graduate to as a logistics pilot.
As a recon pilot, recon is currently the end of the line.
On the other hand, we have a set of unused BC hulls. Unlike the tier 1 BC hulls, which have as a whole more defensive bonuses, the tier 2 hulls are a little beefier on stats and have more blatant damage oriented bonuses. Harby and Hurricane being the obvious examples. Tier 2 BC's, without stating specifics, should without a doubt be adapted into something more aggressive than the tier 1's.
What is a T2 tier 2 BC role? What is a Recon upgrade? Deimos is to Astarte as Arazu is to ......?
Do these questions not highlight the serendipity of a BC derived recon upgrade?
No, you got a BS size upgrade. Imho an astarte and deimos are not really related.
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.18 22:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: darius mclever No, you got a BS size upgrade. Imho an astarte and deimos are not really related.
*Sigh* If you call lolBlack Ops the upgrades of recons just because Black Ops use a few skills that are also good skills for recon pilots to have, then Marauders are the BS graduation path for HAC pilots.
As neither Marauders or Black Ops require any T2 cruiser prereqs, they are barely related.
Furthermore, Recons require sig analysis V and electronics upgrades V, neither of which will get you into a Black Ops any faster. Yet HAC's require weapon upgrades V, which will get you into a Marauder faster.
Skill-wise, Recon pilots get a bit left out. Talking about Black Ops is kinda unrelated. |
Deldrac
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.19 00:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: darius mclever
well isnt it: Recon → Blackops?
Yes. Yes it is.
Fix blackops, stop inventing new problems when ccp have perfectly good problems to solve already.
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.19 01:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Deldrac
Originally by: darius mclever
well isnt it: Recon → Blackops?
Yes. Yes it is.
Fix blackops, stop inventing new problems when ccp have perfectly good problems to solve already.
OGMaFBA Black Ops do not require recon skills. Black Ops aren't even that focused on EWAR. Widow doesn't even get an ECM range bonus, meaning it's jam strength bonus is more akin to Panther and Sin's run-away-run-away bonuses in function. It's pretty clear Black Ops are not upgraded recons by any stretch of the imagination. Stealth bombers might as well be entry-level recons because they have a cloaking bonus.
TL;DR
No ---------------------------------------
Originally by: Red Raider A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.05.20 12:36:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Rajere on 20/05/2009 12:48:26 Black Ops are not in anyway an upgrade to recons, they are two completely different ship lines. BOs & Recons are complimentary to one another the same way that recons and Stealth Bombers are now complimentary to each other (Rapier + SBs = win). Each performs an essential role that the other sorely lacks, thus the two work in tandem perfectly.
The problem with continuously upgrading is the danger of obsoleting previous tiers of ships. There is no upgrade from Recons because recons already do the job exceptionally well, there doesn't need to be an upgraded version of a Force Recon.
Here's the upgrade path for Recons: 1. T1 Astrometrics Frigate upgrades to the T2 Covert Ops Frigate. 2. T1 Ewar Frigate upgrades to the T2 Electronic Attack Frigate 3. T1 Ewar Cruiser + T2 Covert Ops Frigate upgrades to the T2 Force Recon Cruiser 4. T1 Ewar Cruiser + T2 EAF upgrades to the T2 Combat Recon Cruiser this ship line was shoe horned in after the fact, technically it's not a part of the upgrade path but for consistency i'm including it
The upgrade paths for HACs, logistics, Command ships, etc has already been listed. Here's the the tackle/Fleet Tackle/Supercap Tackle upgrade path: 1. T1 fast/tackle frigate upgrades to the T2 Interceptor. 2. T2 Interceptor + the T1 Destroyer upgrades to the T2 Interdictor 3. T2 Interdictor + the T1 combat Cruiser upgrades to the T2 Heavy Interdictor again, not per the tech tree, but close enough
And BOs: 1. T1 "Missile/snipe/Alpha" frigate (heh) upgrades to the the T2 Stealth Bomber. 2. T2 Stealth Bomber + T1 Gank Battleship upgrades to the T2 Black Ops Battleship. Also not per the tech tree, but as far as Roles are concerned this is the upgrade path
Black Ops are *not* ewar, they have nothing in common (as far as roles are concerned) with Force Recons. The Widow is a Raven hull, All of it's stats including it's slot layout is adapted from a Raven hull, it's 2 Caldari Battleship Skill bonuses are taken directly from the Raven. The same is true for the Panther (It is based off the Tempest, not the Typhoon).
Unfortunately All Blackops were shoehorned into being the Tier 1 BS, while all Marauders were labeled as the Tier 2 BS, which is the only reason why the Widow had to take one of the useless bonuses from the Scorpion which is what's lead to all this confusion over their Roles. All Black Ops are based off of the T1 Gank BS, all of them receive dual weapon bonuses from the T1 Gank BS. Their role is very straight forward, damage/gank.
The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR |
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