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Best recon for black ops cyno?

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Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.16 05:53:00 - [1] Well, time to give black ops their fair try, so nobody can whine about "OMG EFT!!!!!!!!" every time I say they're overpriced junk. Setting up the Widow itself is easy, but what about the recon? I need the following contradictory things: 1) Enough HP to survive the experience, I can't afford to just throw away recons for every kill. 2) Enough web/scram range to keep the target pinned long enough to get my main in-system and point the target (remember, covert cyno = no moving, and there's a six-second recalibration delay on the recon). 3) Multiple points to deal with stabs. 4) Painters to ensure full torp damage. The Falcon does the first well and has very appealing ECM, but lacks the rest. The Rapier webs/paints nicely, but lacks scram range if I want to bring multiple points. The Arazu easily scrams nicely, but lacks a painter bonus and can't stop the target from moving away very effectively if it has an AB due to short web range. The Pilgrim is the worst, obviously, as it does nothing but tank. So which is it? -----------
abrasive soap Balls Deep Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.16 06:00:00 - [2] Edited by: abrasive soap on 16/05/2009 06:03:20 curse and redeemer - target won't warp without cap and it won't be injected if it has stabs fit (unless its a gimmick pvp fit) or rapier and redeemer - very good choice for holding down targets or rook and redeemer - decent tank, good dps, jamming or arazu and redeemer - good point range, bad hp, damps are meh Redeemer is great Widow seems interesting and would obsolete the rook Panther is terrible except for speed Sin is very meh with the drones and cloaking not going well together
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.16 06:26:00 - [3] Originally by: abrasive soap curse and redeemer - target won't warp without cap and it won't be injected if it has stabs fit (unless its a gimmick pvp fit) Please note that this requires a COVERT cyno and the covops cloak to get to the target, so the Curse is not an option. If you meant to list the Pilgrim, then it's a poor option, it has no advantage in holding down the target, and two neuts (remember, have to fit the cloak + cyno) aren't going to make any difference when the target is getting hit with 1-2000 dps (1k from the Widow, sometimes with another 1k from a friend in a Panther). Finally, you are wrong about not warping without cap. Even with minimal cap, you will still make a partial warp, and that's enough to take you off-grid and escape the trap. Quote: rook and redeemer - decent tank, good dps, jamming See above, combat recons are not an option here. Quote: arazu and redeemer - good point range, bad hp, damps are meh Damps are not an option. Remember, activating the cyno keeps you from moving for 30 seconds, so if you're at a range where you can damp yourself to safety, your target can easily just fly away from you, escape point range, and warp off. -----------
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.05.16 06:41:00 - [4] I'd go with the Rapier personally; it's better than the falcon for actually killing small ships and if your goal is to keep them in place obviously the rapier will do a better job. Shouldn't be hard to keep them from approaching you in those 30 seconds while the ship is immobile if, say, the target is dual webbed. Plus also the Widow has ECM when it lands so using a Falcon seems redundant. __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.16 06:54:00 - [5] Originally by: Terianna Eri I'd go with the Rapier personally; it's better than the falcon for actually killing small ships and if your goal is to keep them in place obviously the rapier will do a better job. Shouldn't be hard to keep them from approaching you in those 30 seconds while the ship is immobile if, say, the target is dual webbed. I'm actually more worried about the target getting away than getting close. It's pretty easy to set up a Rapier to get 30k EHP, which should be enough to tank the average black ops target long enough to get my main in for the kill. The Rapier's problem, IMO, is scrambling the target. Web range is nice and in theory would work well with a faction disruptor to ensure the target has to fly 30+ km while dual webbed to escape, but that's only a single point. If I want to counter stabs, that brings my tackle range in much shorter, and makes it much harder to keep the target from getting away. Obviously the Arazu has the reverse problem, plenty of range with 2- or 3-point scram, but short web range. -----------
abrasive soap Balls Deep Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.16 07:54:00 - [6] Edited by: abrasive soap on 16/05/2009 07:55:35 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: abrasive soap curse and redeemer - target won't warp without cap and it won't be injected if it has stabs fit (unless its a gimmick pvp fit) Please note that this requires a COVERT cyno and the covops cloak to get to the target, so the Curse is not an option. If you meant to list the Pilgrim, then it's a poor option, it has no advantage in holding down the target, and two neuts (remember, have to fit the cloak + cyno) aren't going to make any difference when the target is getting hit with 1-2000 dps (1k from the Widow, sometimes with another 1k from a friend in a Panther). Finally, you are wrong about not warping without cap. Even with minimal cap, you will still make a partial warp, and that's enough to take you off-grid and escape the trap. Quote: rook and redeemer - decent tank, good dps, jamming See above, combat recons are not an option here. Quote: arazu and redeemer - good point range, bad hp, damps are meh Damps are not an option. Remember, activating the cyno keeps you from moving for 30 seconds, so if you're at a range where you can damp yourself to safety, your target can easily just fly away from you, escape point range, and warp off. I could have sworn that the combat recons could light covert cynos since they could use the covert bridge but I double checked and unfortunately they can't. In that case the pilgrim is **, the arazu is ** (you can scram and whatnot but you have a terrible tank and you can't move with cyno lit), the falcon is a bad option as it won't help your widow, and the rapier is the best option (as it holds things down and has a decent shield buffer).
Leopold Caine Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna	Posted - 2009.05.16 08:47:00 - [7] Hm, is bringing out two Recons out of the option? Probably an overkill, but an Arazu/Rapier combo would take care of the problem. ________________________________________
Mystafyre Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.05.16 08:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Leopold Caine Hm, is bringing out two Recons out of the option? Probably an overkill, but an Arazu/Rapier combo would take care of the problem. Yup, that will do it. And couple Falcons for the lolz...
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.16 12:58:00 - [9] Edited by: Rajere on 16/05/2009 13:02:31 lulz asking this question here on eve-o forums, not to mention the S&M forums? You might as well have just posted this in Science & Industry for all the good it would do you. You should have just convo'd me. Check your evemail in game if you are interested in the real answer to your question. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Aegis Osiris Gallente Demonic Retribution	Posted - 2009.05.16 16:09:00 - [10] Arazu or Rapier are your only reasonable choices. scram and faction web on the Zu, web and faction scram/disruptor on the Rapier. Tank to taste. I like violet more then pink.

abrasive soap Balls Deep Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.16 17:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 16/05/2009 13:09:37 lulz asking this question here on eve-o forums, not to mention the S&M forums? You might as well have just posted this in Science & Industry for all the good it would do you. You should have just convo'd me. Check your evemail in game if you are interested in the real answer to your question. Quote: I could have sworn that the combat recons could light covert cynos since they could use the covert bridge but I double checked and unfortunately they can't. Combat Recons cannot use the covert bridge either. See the stealth bomber pre change was able to use the bridge and neither could use the cov ops cloak so I'm a bit confused by this.
Sydian Rie Minmatar Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.16 18:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Sydian Rie on 16/05/2009 18:22:42 Why would you bridge to kill a single target? Weren't black ops intended to bring in a fleet of covert ships, then do your killing without having to go through a stargate? So then the issue of which ship could withstand the most punishment would be out of the question as you would be attacking as a fleet. Bridging ships to a SS to form a group before attacking seems like it would be the best unless you don't mind suiciding a covert cyno ship at a gate camp.
Tainted Vixen GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.05.16 18:33:00 - [13] LSE Arazu. They actually have pretty decent EHP all things considered, and with good heat skills you can put cheap faction scrams out a long way. Or disruptors to stupid distances. With MWDs working in deadspace now, you have to worry about not being able to shut down the AB even less. I would say the painter bonus is less important than making sure you keep the points on.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.16 18:48:00 - [14] Quote: See the stealth bomber pre change was able to use the bridge and neither could use the cov ops cloak so I'm a bit confused by this. Any ship with a cloaking bonus can be bridged. That means ships with bonus to fitting Covert Ops Cloaks, or ships with a bonus to cloaked speed/-100% sensor recalibration bonus, ie pre-change Stealth bombers and Black Ops. Combat Recons have never had a cloaking bonus nor were they ever supposed to fit cloaks. Technically the attribute that determines if a ship is bridgable or not is "Jump Harmonics 2." You can view this attribute in Evemon's Ship/Item browser amongst other places. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
FT Diomedes Gallente Titan Industries Technology Team Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.05.16 19:42:00 - [15] For what you are looking for, I would say it is probably the Rapier, with the Arazu in second place. ...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Rivur'Tam the united	Posted - 2009.05.16 20:47:00 - [16] I would go with rapier as u can fit a point to ur black ops, A faction one would be nice overheated it will reach 33k+ the arazu could fit a web but overheted u only looking at 19k range. I'm training asto lv5 atm so i can use the jump bridge i'll come post back when i had a play with it. my vid watch now resized my sig is this right no
Grista	Posted - 2009.05.16 21:43:00 - [17] Still the Rapier - fastest recon out of a bubble and can hold a tackle. Falcon's slow speed makes it just about the worst choice of the bunch.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.05.16 22:10:00 - [18] Edited by: Omarvelous on 16/05/2009 22:10:46 1) Enough HP to survive the experience, I can't afford to just throw away recons for every kill. 2) Enough web/scram range to keep the target pinned long enough to get my main in-system and point the target (remember, covert cyno = no moving, and there's a six-second recalibration delay on the recon). 3) Multiple points to deal with stabs. 4) Painters to ensure full torp damage. As I'm beginging the road towards this tactic, I would imagine a Falcon would do the job. Fit 2x scrams and a faction web. Fit remaining 4 mid slots with tank. I'm guessing a propulsion mod is pointless considering you'll be immobile once the cyno goes up - unless you plan on chasing someone through gates. Lows are tank as well. Highs could be some neuts. Target painters - just fit TP drones on your widow if you need the full damage that badly. You're asking a lot from 1 ship. Can any ship tank, scram a stabbed target, have webs, and target paint? My guess is a buffer tanked falcon with 3 mid slots for tackling. Use cloak to get the drop right next to target. EDIT Have you considered the EWAR rigs that reduce de-cloak calibration times? Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2009.05.16 23:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 16/05/2009 22:10:46 1) Enough HP to survive the experience, I can't afford to just throw away recons for every kill. 2) Enough web/scram range to keep the target pinned long enough to get my main in-system and point the target (remember, covert cyno = no moving, and there's a six-second recalibration delay on the recon). 3) Multiple points to deal with stabs. 4) Painters to ensure full torp damage. As I'm beginging the road towards this tactic, I would imagine a Falcon would do the job. Fit 2x scrams and a faction web. Fit remaining 4 mid slots with tank. I'm guessing a propulsion mod is pointless considering you'll be immobile once the cyno goes up - unless you plan on chasing someone through gates. Lows are tank as well. Highs could be some neuts. Target painters - just fit TP drones on your widow if you need the full damage that badly. You're asking a lot from 1 ship. Can any ship tank, scram a stabbed target, have webs, and target paint? My guess is a buffer tanked falcon with 3 mid slots for tackling. Use cloak to get the drop right next to target. EDIT Have you considered the EWAR rigs that reduce de-cloak calibration times? if you are going for all those things you just mentioned a falcon is the absolute worst of the recons for the job, what you just described is a job for 1600 plated rapier... if anyone flys a falcon without ecm they deserve the swift death coming their way. Signature locked. Please submit a petition to discuss the matter further. Navigator
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.17 04:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Sydian Rie Edited by: Sydian Rie on 16/05/2009 18:22:42 Why would you bridge to kill a single target? Weren't black ops intended to bring in a fleet of covert ships, then do your killing without having to go through a stargate? So then the issue of which ship could withstand the most punishment would be out of the question as you would be attacking as a fleet. Note that I'm talking about using the jump drive, not the bridge. The plan is the recon finds a target, tackles it, and lights a cyno, then the black ops jump in and gank it. Originally by: Rivur'Tam I would go with rapier as u can fit a point to ur black ops, A faction one would be nice overheated it will reach 33k+ the arazu could fit a web but overheted u only looking at 19k range. Fitting a point on the black ops doesn't help, as the target needs to be pointed before the black ops enters system. Even if I fit one on the black ops, it's only a backup. -----------

STARRAVENN	Posted - 2009.05.17 11:18:00 - [21] Best option is the rapier imo but with an out of the box fitting. You just need to armor tank your rapier to give all the med slots to ewar. - Fit a mwd to get in range (if not by using cloak approach). - Fit a scrambler or two (or scram + disruptor 2+1 point), - Then fit 3 webber. Nothing can escape from scram + 3 webs. - Profit :)
quygen Minmatar Acting Neutral	Posted - 2009.05.17 13:53:00 - [22] Edited by: quygen on 17/05/2009 13:54:17 1. Find target, make bookmark of wreck or can 2. Goto near moon or planet, make cyno, jump in 3. Get back to target, sit 10km behind him looking from the moon you just came from 4. Warp black ops 10km from gang member, decloak recon Result: web, scram, kill May require some practice
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.05.17 14:38:00 - [23] OBVIOUSLY, you can not have it all can you?


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