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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
422
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Posted - 2012.05.15 19:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats. Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea. Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature)
Improve their ai if you want but make them easy to kill. IMO ccp should use npcs only where absolutely necessary. If they aren't absolutely necessary then get rid of them.
This is a mmo people should be deciding the outcome of wars not spawns of npcs. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
422
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Posted - 2012.05.15 20:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:
Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea.
Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature)
I disagree. Having NPCs in fights can give a numerically inferior group of players a chance at defeating a better squad on paper. These are actually pretty fun fights and offer some variety in engagements. Their effect on the plex fights, however, should simulate normal pvp as much as practicable. For example, fighting against large numbers of ewar is not realistic nor fun.
I only got a pvp fight one time due to rats. I have had about 50 times where rats blocked or ruined the pvp opportunity. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
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Posted - 2012.05.16 14:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Cearain wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats. Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea. Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature) Improve their ai if you want but make them easy to kill. IMO ccp should use npcs only where absolutely necessary. If they aren't absolutely necessary then get rid of them. This is a mmo people should be deciding the outcome of wars not spawns of npcs. The rats are necessary to prevent farming now. ....
Well with these changes we should have better intel as to where plexes are being run so players can stop the farming. Plus players will have an added incentive to stop plexing if they strongly tie in the lp upgrades to the 16x lp cost multiplier.
So I do not know that rats are necessary to prevent farming after the inferno changes. Certainly ccp could continue to improve the militia intel tools and the incentives to stop plexers so that rats would be completely unnecessary. That would make for a much better game.
Few are proud that they are the carebear pver in this game. So making faction war more of a pve activity is not going to help it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
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Posted - 2012.05.17 14:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Possibly use them to assist a losing faction; for example, have tougher NPCs than usual spawn for a faction with less solar systems, or attack opposing members at gates (not neutrals)[/list]
I would be against this. Try to put some sort of balance in the systems so players will continue to fight for both sides. Don't make it so everyone joins one side and then just does pve against rats.
Please look at data on incursions. When incursions go to a low sec system does the amount of pvp there increase or decrease? If it decreases then please reduce the influence of npcs in faction war. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
441
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Posted - 2012.05.29 17:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think the minmatar npcs are pretty difficult to deal with. Running a major plex with them requires more than a typical pvp battlecruiser.
Seriously I wish CCP would do something so we didn't have to shoot npcs. Maybe have an alarm system that you have to apply x amount of dps to over 20 seconds or the npcs will spawn. That way a smaller ship won't be able to blow up the alarm.
Or just remove the npcs altogether and let the players know where plexes are being taken so we can defend our territory - you know pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.12 13:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
There are allot of good ideas here.
XGallentius is right the npcs should really be a dps sink. Chatgris is right they shouldn't interfere with pvp. And pretty much everyone is agrees speedtanking plexes is a problem. I think the following changes - mostly proposed by others - would work well:
1) must kill all rats
2) the rats will orbit the button and not leave that orbit range and only agro when the timer is running. If the timer stops they stop aggroing. This will do 3 things: A) it will mean if a war target warps in the person running the plex can go outside the timer range and fight without worring about rat damage. B) It will prevent one ship from comming in collecting the aggro orbiting outside range while a small long range destroyer just shoots the rats inside the orbit range C) If it is a newer player having problems with the rats they can shoot the rats outside the orbit button. This of course means it will take longer for them to run the plex. But gives them an option.
3) Have the rats use small weapon systems. Having battleships shoot torpedoes is just asking players to speedtank the plexes in a small ship. Instead of torpedoes the rats should use light missiles/assault and rockets. Battleships will just fit more of them and have more damage mods. They should also use smaller guns that can track. The rats might also get a speed boost. This will mean that a) the overall dps will go down,(allowing more pvp fits to be used in plexes) but also b)the rats will hit smaller ships almost as hard as bigger ships - which means people will use the bigger ships. Perhaps some of the ships will stay in orbits throughout the range instead of chasing us if that will mean it is harder to kite them inide the orbit range.
4) Possibly increase the tank on the npcs. I'm not sure how necessary this is but its something ccp can tweak if necessary. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.12 19:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fidelium Mortis wrote:Kreiga Khamsi wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways.
The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussion. The only "real" long term solution would be something similar to what I posted early on in this thread (P.1 I believe) .. AI coding. eWar removal will not really do much other than speed up system flips as everyone and their mother will be able to solo cap everythin; gangs are already killing rats and solo plexers generally run regardless .. should help a bit with the occasional fight that happens on/near timer before rats are killed off but not that common to begin with so 'meh'. By the by, requiring destruction of NPCs (aka. PvE grind) is more than OK now that people are paid massive amounts of LP for their time .. on top of tags/loot gained from said destruction. Once we start doing what null has been doing for years, asking for something for nothing, then we will well and truly be lost .. FW will decompose (already dead, being flogged) and the sky fall. PS: Looking forward to seeing the difference in plexing speed Amarr will be able to pull off when they get the same ability as the Mimes has had since day 1 (solo frig capping). I agree with 90% of the above (and 100% of his post on page 1). Removing the EWAR from plexes will not encourage PvP, in fact I contend it will make PvP harder. Removing the EWAR will simply allow all sides to farm LP in frigs and never have to commit to a fight. There is an ever increasing number of people farming LP from plexes in frigs (some without even having guns as can be seen by KM linked earlier in this thread) who will warp out of the plex as soon as you hit the gate; they warp to a safe, most have a cloak fitted and they just wait for you leave so they can go back to farming the LP. Plexing has become more like hunting WT missioning in SB than anything else. The only real way to catch them is hope they get complacent and you surprise them. Hans please don't take this as disrespect but removing the EWAR will not take FW back to its PvP roots; all it will do is encourage carebears to come to lowsec and farm LP with relative ease. I have not read any posts on here (I don't think) that have asked for the plexes to be easier to cap, they want it to be fair. In fact the vast majority of the posts have said that it should be harder to cap a plex (e.g. kill all the NPC). You want the LP, then earn it. I also agree with Veshta that the NPC grind will be far less of an issue given the reward people are getting for plexing now. I would also like to acknowledge the good work the devs are doing at trying to show FW some love and improving this area of EVE, I just don't think they have got it quite right yet. There has to be a way to stop the ridiculous amount of farming that is currently going on and get FW back the PvP roots it was founded on. Just my thoughts. I'll give you a couple examples of how plex EWAR discourages pvp. A couple of days ago, I decided to take my slicer and blitz a Caldari thrasher and merlin sitting inside a fully spawned major with the hopes of burning one down before the rats burn through my tank. As the merlin enters armor, I get jammed and the merlin bails and I have to warp out as the dps starts to pile on. I try again, this time going for the thrasher, and the same thing happens after I get off my first couple of volleys. At least on the gallente side, any engagement in a medium or major plex usually takes into account losing at least 1 ship to jamming rats, if not more if the plex is spawned more. Which means you have to either bring additional people to compensate (which often means the targets warp off), or you don't engage (senselessly losing ships). This also severely limits your options for going in with an undermanned group where every ship counts.
For the amarr its just that by the time we burn to the ships by the button, if there are a significant number of rats, we will have our tank decimated before we can even point the enemy. I remember I was in a drake in an open plex and another pirate was in a drake in an open plex. We were both drawing so much aggro that by the time we got into point range we were both had to warp out. How much the painters and missile spam cause this I don't know. But I think the lack of painters can only be helpful.
These are just examples. I have had too many times that the rats have screwed up a good pvp fight to count. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
461
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Posted - 2012.06.12 19:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
corestwo wrote:The issue with ewar, as I understand it, is the imbalance between factions, right? Particularly with regards to caldari ECM. So would there be a problem with removing all the ewar, replacing it with a stasis tower or three per plex to bandaid the speedtanking issue, and then working on a longer term solution?
This is an idea worth considering but I woudln't like it in plexes for this reason:
With the very small gang pvp (like of 1-3 per side) that plexing often delivers your speed is very important. Almost none of my plexing fits will work if I they are turned into a brick by numerous webs. It will be very hard to hold anyone long enough to kill them. You combine knowing your opponent is going to be webbed with some tracking disruptors or even damps and we have a whole new ballgame that is pretty far removed from pvp in the rest of eve. Some might not view that as a problem but I wouldn't like that at all.
However I do think this would work well for missions and preventing the speedtank /stealth bomber approach. I look at missions as a form of pve. I am ok with missions remaining pve - ie your supposed to warp out when pvpers come. The only time I would really pvp in my missions is when I am using them mainly as bait. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
466
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Posted - 2012.06.15 23:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hey guys, I was talking with Shalee Lianne and Drackarn and a few others on twitter today about the NPC issue, discussing the issue of speedtanking and plex farming.
A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.
One compromise that was well received all around was the idea of moving the LP reward to a rat bounty, and separating it from Sov control?
This way PvP-ers fighting over a system could still ignore the rats and engage in Factional Warfare without being forced to PvE. Those that wanted to farm plexing for profit couldn't do so in a speed-tanking frig, they'd have to actually *do something* for their isk.
There are variants on this, making the payout for the rats only occur if the timer actually completes, keeping people from just blitzing rats than leaving. But barring technical limitations that make programming this difficult, I think moving the profit-end of plexing to the rat killing solves a lot of issues.
What do you think everyone?
Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
466
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Posted - 2012.06.15 23:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world...
Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
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Posted - 2012.06.18 04:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
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Posted - 2012.06.18 04:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's just one idea though. I don't want everyone getting the wrong impression here, I hate speed tanking of all kinds in all situations. The ideal goal to shoot for is forcing pilots into bigger ships for bigger plexes and missions, even if each can still be soloed. I don't mind pilots making absurd rewards doing FW stuff as long as they're taking absurd risks and putting isk on the line that can be *caught* if you're not careful. That's what's broken to me everywhere atm, the problem isn't that you make good money, its that its so safe to do. This will ultimately require an overhaul of all the NPC AI, making them smarter and tougher, fewer numbers but still killable in PvP fits. Ytterbium may or may not be able to can clarify on the timeline, but I imagine something of this magnitude will be a feature of the winter expansion. CCP may not be willing to do a lot more tweaks in the meantime, to shine a turd they're about to flush down the toilet, so to speak. We'll have to see and like I said that's something only Ytterbium can clarify for you. I say all that just so everyone has appropriate expectations going forward while we discuss NPC's, and focuses on the right kind of feedback at this stage in the game. Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!!
I'm not so sure this is going to change very much really. Since amarr has so many more offensive plexes to run it may actually hurt amarr - I am thinking we will be able to speed tank allot of plexes after the "no ewar" change.
Until Amarr really starts to spread out and make the war painful for minmatar by forcing them to defensive plex in back systems for no lp gain we are not going to turn this around very fast. Unless fweddit brings in huge numbers from null sec or something.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
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Posted - 2012.06.18 16:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have.
Hans thanks for the feedback. It seems there is still some resistance from ccp in seeing the value in really making faction war work.
I also saw a dev in another thread talkiing about how they could be working on ship balancing instead of faction war. Again because that "effects everyone"
Just because boosting the condor will "effect everyone" doesn't mean it is as important as faction war. The effect that this has is pretty miniscule. And its not just because its a frigate. This whole ship balancing is just changing the fotm. And frankly its getting to the point where you can't do any sort of long term planning in eve. Crucible was much needed and a great addition. But if future expansions are just going to involve tweaking numbers on ships every month "to mix it up" then I am concerned for the game.
Faction war is the real crux of what people do in the game. And if they actually got it right it would be a major draw like null sec is. Its not just another ship people can fly depending on what is buffed or nerfed. I really can't see how anyone could think "ship balance" is as important as getting a core gameplay feature working.
Frankly I will still play eve even if the drake is not nerfed or the incursus wasn't buffed. But if they botch faction war I am not likley to stay subbed at all. I can't imagine many people were going to unsub if the incursus didn't get a buff.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
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Posted - 2012.06.19 04:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. This is a short term solution, and the rats are already there, so there is no "incremental cost" to pvp at the expense of pve. In fact, if you made it a point to shoot the rats, then you would get a more pure pvp encounter when it actually happens.
This is true an it is why I am in favor of the must kill all rats requirement - if we are going to have rats. But I was just pointing out that orbiting a button is not as bad as having rats because it does not force you to fit a pve ship. Nor does it cut through your tank so that if anything with a point comes you need to warp out or die just from being held. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
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Posted - 2012.06.19 16:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:CCP when are you getting rid of the missiles from the Caldari plex rats?
They are way too effective in comparison to the other weapon types.
Perhaps someday they will get rid of the minmatar missiles as well. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
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Posted - 2012.06.22 16:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have. I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible. Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, Is CCP convinced NOW Hans??? They rushed out a fix for the goon manufacturing LP to convert into ISK and your militia has been carried along with a free hand up. You are already down to 50% and tier 3, so you haven't been "winning", you have been propped up. How many ships and how much ISK has your militia accrued as a by product of this design flaw/bug on top of the LP they get from farming plexes due to the unbalanced NPCs in the plexes??? BTW - I AM mad. I supported Hans for CSM and I WANT TO SEE SOME REPRESENTATION FOR ALL MILITIAS HERE!!!!
We shouldn't blame hans for the design flaw.
However I would be very interested in knowing how much isk in items has come out of the minmatar faction war store from may 22nd to june 22nd? How much isk in items has gone out of the 24th crusade lp store from may 22nd until june 22nd?
I don't want to know this to necessarilly make any sort of argument about change (at least I can't think of one yet) I just want to know for lulz.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
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Posted - 2012.06.22 16:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yes I agree. Everytime I see the title to this thread "rebalancing" NPCS, I wonder what he means by "rebalancing." They were never balanced to begin with.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
483
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Posted - 2012.07.06 19:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hans
Good job keeping focus. As you know I would prefer no npcs at all as per my signature.
But if we must have npcs then post number 73 in this thread is what I would like to see:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463058#post1463058
I guess I still get the feeling that posting here is like throwing a bottle with a message in it in the sea. No one from csm or ccp ever seems to indicate which of the hundreds of ideas they are looking at more seriously or why they are tending to reject others.
So these threads end up as lots of random posts that few players follow up on because it would take forever.
It would be nice for some input on the ideas I posted, and on ?sigma pi's? idea of having the counter to start to count back to zero if you leave a plex after and enemy lands on grid. (or on grid of the accel gate)
I can say that just making it so that you can't speed tank plexes will not make faction war a pvp game. I think ccp needs to look at how to do that directly (like timer count downs following warp offs and notification systesms) and start working toward changes in that direction. If they aren't looking in that direction please redirect their gaze.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
484
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Posted - 2012.07.06 20:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Dynast wrote:Station lockout has at least taken all the ******** station games out of FW, and that's a vast improvement on six months ago..
No it hasn't, at least not if you fight for a faction that has no stable place to base.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
484
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Posted - 2012.07.06 21:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
....I personally like your proposal for better notifications for enemies entering plexes, and I also like SigmaPi's idea of the plex resetting when you leave, to encourage people to stick it out and fight over it instead of fleeing constantly. .
Now we are narrowing it down a bit.
I thought SignmaPi's idea would be to have the counter start counting back to zero. Not automatically reset. I think a reset is not a good idea. A single large gang (I won't say blob because I don't mind blobs) can just make the rounds and undue everyones plexing by warping in a single time and immediately leaving.
With respect to this I also think it should only start counting back down if a wt lands on grid or on grid of the accel gate before you leave. That way my own timer won't start counting down if I want to leave to chase someone else out. Also some people like to run defensive plexes up a bit so that the offensive plexer will have to sped more time plexing if they want to cap that plex. I think that is a valid idea.
I haven't heard anyone object to this. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
485
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Posted - 2012.07.07 12:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
No lp for defensive plexing does at least a few good things:
1) Encourages the defending side to stop plexers in pvp before they capture a plex so that they do not need to orbit a button for no pay.
2) Gives some reason to join the side with fewer systems since although your lp is worth very little you have more opportunities to make lp through plexing. It also limits the winning sides ability to make lp through plexing. Yes they can still make lp from missions but that does not help their occupancy efforts and if enough people switch over to missioning instead of plexing then the side with fewer systems is given some respite.
3) It can lead to a war where many systems become vulnerable or close to vulnerable and then flipped in a dramatic fashion. Sure this hasn't happened, yet. But we are starting to see it signs of how it will work. One of the caldari or gallente refused to flip a system after bringing it to vulnerable. The minmatar are already getting concerned of the prospect that amarr will start farming those back systems in a way that will be very difficult/tedious for them to recapture. Once the amarr gets around to plexing those back systems and forcing the minmatar to plex for no gain we will start to wear them out. We haven't really begun that yet but it will work if we do decide to do that.
4) Its sort of neat to use individual greed as a balance.
5) If you want to farm systems where your enemy can't even dock then eve offers that already. Sov null sec. I think sov null sec is boring because it allows "defensive plexing." - farming rats and running plexes in its own systems.
IMO Null sec would greatly benefit from a system like this where you are rewarded for taking over new space instead of just sitting in your space and farming it. IMO, that is a big reason why null sec has been so boring for the last few years. By forcing people to take over new space in order to gain isk your encourage conflict.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
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Posted - 2012.07.09 23:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Was the e-war supposed to get removed? I was getting target painted just now in a plex. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
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Posted - 2012.07.14 03:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The next logical step would be alerting players directly to specific plexing activity, so response times can be reduced even further. it's more fun and less of a grind to chase an attacker out of his plex than it is to defensively run it down, we want to reach the point of intervention, not clean up work after the attacker has nabbed his LP and ran. I know exactly how we can accomplish this, but for the details you'll have to wait for the CSM minutes to be released, there will be much more I can elaborate on once you guys see what CCP's been up to on their end. Sorry to tease, but you won't have to wait long, they'll be out very soon!
This would need to be handled carefully, Sometimes local is empty when I open a plex sometimes not, I then expect or at least prepare for some form of fight and often I am even trying to provoke a fight by opening the plex that is the notification. Having everyone within a couple jumps swarm in would do little to encourage PVP.
I have to say plex fights where random people from both militias just show up are some of the best pvp fights I have ever been in. People in militia a few jumps away just all coming to a plex not knowing exaclty what to expect. Its great.
I really don't know what you mean. A notification system that pulls in random militia pilots would be awesome. Its long overdue.
As for the rest of your post I agree. Minors are pretty well balanced. The trick is to figure out how to make the bigger plexes balanced. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
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Posted - 2012.07.14 11:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I am not against the idea in principle and have supported your previous thread. Cearain wrote: I have to say plex fights where random people from both militias just show up are some of the best pvp fights I have ever been in. People in militia a few jumps away just all coming to a plex not knowing exaclty what to expect. Its great.
I really don't know what you mean. A notification system that pulls in random militia pilots would be awesome. Its long overdue.
As for the rest of your post I agree. Minors are pretty well balanced. The trick is to figure out how to make the bigger plexes balanced.
This is true to an extent if both sides pile in but my fear is it will be used to blob single targets. My point is only that it is quite possible to get pvp between well balanced forces in and around plexes. If I spend time dscanning a system judging ship types and who is in local even convoing fellow militia pilots then opening a plex to start a fight or following a target into a plex then I do not necessarily want three additional war targets suddenly appearing in local within 30seconds or even three allied pilots this may ruin good fights and promote small scale blobbing. A defence should be scrambled. Defenders should not immediately be informed a major plex is opened it gives them almost 20 minutes to prepare a ship and get there (you could almost travel the entire warzone in this time) plus they may get there and find 10 other allies already chased the war target into hiding. Notification towards the end of the timer 5min to go as an example means that local fights can have already taken place that the plexer only has to hold out for a period of time and can only be engaged a few times by those within a few jumps. Pilots should not be able to just remain docked up waiting for a notification then setting out to get PVP, keeping notifications to be within half a dozen jumps may encourage people to still roam/patrol to cover more ground. More people actively in space increases the chances of PVP. It also has implications for a faction that has less numbers or holds fewer systems, with so much free intel it would become almost impossible to plex even the backwater systems, it becomes too easy to defend, I would suggest alerts are only received for systems at a certain contested percentage. 50% or even higher.
I agree with your concerns but keep in mind:
1) I was thinking both sides would get the notifications. Hopefully it won't just be the defenders.
2) Also keep in mind plexes will be entered and exited constantly thoughtout the war zone. So if the militia wants to send all their forces to one pilot in a plex they can. But that will not be a very efficient use of their resources. The better use would be to just send what is necessary for each plex. Plus you will get people who aren't on coms just randomly rolling in and out of plexes.
I do imagine though that whereas i will usually get about 1-2 defenders in dal when i run a plex, I will get many more after this change (assumign ccp does it). I think I will need to pop open a plex in a farther back water like ebolfer or ardar to get 1-2 players coming in.
So I think it will tend to spread the war zone out. From the amarr minmatar perspective - If you want a big gang then run a plex in kourmonen or kamela. if you want a medium sized gang I think dal or vard would be good. If you want smaller scale stuff then minmatar space up past frerstorn. Of course you never know what you get for any given plex because that is eve but in general I think this sort of pattern will develop.
But yeah I agree they should keep an eye on it. I don't see how it could go wrong, but if it causes some problems hopefully they will tweak it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
499
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Posted - 2012.07.25 19:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Whatever CCP comes up with for NPC balance, future plexing mechanics, whatever... I hope they follow the principles below:
GÇó Offensive plexing should be rewarded more than defensive plexing because offensive plexing drives conflict. (Defensive plexing is a reaction to offensive plexing.) GÇó Plexes (both offensive and defensive) should be run most efficiently by the appropriately sized ship. (Frigs/Dessies for L1, Cruisers/T2 frigs for L2, BC/T2 cruisers for L3, BS/T2 BCs for L4) GÇóPlex mechanics should encourage pvp, not pve.
Potential Solutions:
GÇó (Much) higher LP rewards for offensive plexing. GÇó Timer slows down if appropriately sized ship is not running the button. Ex: If frigate is on timer of L4 plex, then plex timer should slow down by a factor of eight. GÇó Timer move toward baseline if no ship is close to button. This enables players interested in pvp to run off those not interested in pvp and still be successful. (This has been discussed extensively elsewhere).
I agree with you, except the whole "appropriate sized" ship stuff. If i want to fight a cruiser in a frigate(s) or a bc in a cruiser(s) i should be able to. I shouldn't be punished. Typically it will be several frigates against a cruiser or a few cruisers against a bc. But whatever, I love those sorts of fights.
Until we see that amarr can actually fight their way back then I would say we shouldn't even consider any lp for defensive plexing. At this point I think ccp should consider giving missions a slight nerf to the lp payout as well. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
501
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Posted - 2012.07.27 14:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
I agree with you, except the whole "appropriate sized" ship stuff. If i want to fight a cruiser in a frigate(s) or a bc in a cruiser(s) i should be able to. I shouldn't be punished. Typically it will be several frigates against a cruiser or a few cruisers against a bc. But whatever, I love those sorts of fights.
Until we see that amarr can actually fight their way back then I would say we shouldn't even consider any lp for defensive plexing. At this point I think ccp should consider giving missions a slight nerf to the lp payout as well.
I did say that completing a plex should be done most efficiently with an appropriately sized ship. Current plex size restrictions would still hold. You could fight with destroyers in any size plex. This thread is not about FW missions.
Right but if you try to run a say a medium plex with 3 destroyers instead of 1 cruiser the timer would take longer under your proposal.
The thread is about plexing. If we "nerf" plexing so you can't run them in frigates you are indirectly buffing missions. Its important that ccp understand that connection, or their whole goal of making plexing pay better than missions won't be achieved. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
501
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Posted - 2012.07.27 14:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
I tried running some majors with a cyclone asb fit pvp ship. I wanted to see if it was viable to do them in a pvp ship post ewar removal.
Conclusion: No go even on the closed plexes. I was using cap boosters and without the ability to dock and resupply my cargo it is not really doable. Its extremely unlikely I would take a fight in a major plex even if the enemy ship was quite a bit smaller. Its just stupid to think people will actually pvp in these things with the rats doing so much damage. Unfortunately for pvp I am limitted to the medium and minor plexes.
I run medium plexes in a faction cruisers. They are still not doable in most of my regular t1 pvp cruisers. (although yes they can be done in a caracal) Even with the faction cruisers if the spawn has continued to build up it is a no go.
Minor plexes are fine. No real complaints there.
It does appear that the elimination of ewar has allowed amarr to speed tank major plexes in gunnless frigates.
I still recomend the following:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463058#post1463058 Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
507
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Posted - 2012.07.27 17:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
The other thing they may want to consider is only having the rats spawn as the timer runs.
It seems that once triggered the rats keep spawning even if no one is in the plex. Often I will get to these plexes that have no time off the timer but several spawns of angry red crosses. When this happens even the mediums are not doable in a faction cruiser - at least not if you plan on fighting with it.
As far as scrams and webs on the npcs I think that will cause problems. Especially if you mean a scram that shuts off your mwd. The webs also would really kill most solo pvp fits. Unless of course the rats stop attacking when an enemy comes in. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
509
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Posted - 2012.07.28 13:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Atfal alNudjum wrote:Just to re-iterate what players have been saying about the current state of affairs within FW. This is a conversation that occurred in local after a minmatar FW player's CNI was killed.
[08:24:36] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Haras [08:24:40] Minmatar Player > gf [08:24:52] Amarr Player > Sorry mate I brought something a little bigger this time [08:24:58] Minmatar Player > I don't really care [08:25:03] Minmatar Player > I still make 1b/h per char [08:25:04] Minmatar Player > and I run 3 [08:25:40] Amarr Player > Really? I thought you were alright. Apparently I was wrong [08:25:59] Minmatar Player > All I care about is milking as much isk I can untill ccp patches this broken ****
Not players names have been replaced rather than place individuals in the spotlight.
So still making 1 bill / hour per character, incursions were nerfed for this kind of isk output...fixing sooner rather than later would be good.
I think its dangerous to compare plexing to a pve activity like incursions. At least how plexing should be. Mainly it was the high sec incursions that were the problem.
Also I think there is a bit of bs going on about his income. If you want a higher than say 4-5k per lp then you have to spend quite a bit of time trading.
I don't want the rewards changed. I want the mechanics changed so that when you enter a plex more often than not you will have a pvp fight and maybe even 2 or 3 fights per plex. If they do that then the rewards are not too much at all.
Plexing should be something such that if you are medium at pvp you can pretty much cover your losses. If you are really good at pvp you can cover your losses and even make some profit. If you are bad a pvp you won't cover your losses and will have to use alternate income to cover your losses until you learn to be good a pvp.
So its not really the rewards that are too much its the fact that you can earn them with no pvp.
If however they do make plexign more pvp they will have to nerf missions. Cut mission lp by 30-50%. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
584
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Posted - 2012.08.22 13:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Okay FW is totaly broken, everyone fears the minmatar farming armada Fearing an army of unfit ships....
Its how you win this war - you know destroy your enemies will!!!! Look how many people fear them so much they can only think to join them. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
584
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Posted - 2012.08.22 14:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in.
All good stuff except the above. Giving rewards for plexing will not make it a pvp activity. I hope we have learned this lesson from inferno.
There are numerous reasons why no direct reward for d-plexing is a good plan. Including encouraging pvp and allowing the smaller militia to establish a foothold. Giving rewards just does the opposite. It entrenches the winning team and it gives people a reason to stay docked while the enemy captures an offensive plex instead of fighting them for it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
585
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Posted - 2012.08.22 17:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: There are numerous reasons why no direct reward for d-plexing is a good plan. Including encouraging pvp and allowing the smaller militia to establish a foothold. Giving rewards just does the opposite. It entrenches the winning team and it gives people a reason to stay docked while the enemy captures an offensive plex instead of fighting them for it. Well, there is theory, and there's practice. I'll shelve theory for a second, and I'll even shelve suggesting a solution for one moment. Let's simply talk about some problems that are emerging on the server. The bottom line is that defensive plexing in its current form is nearly 100% undesirable.. Ok I do not believe militias actually want to give systems to the enemy. If they do they do not want it to be widespread. There has been absolutely no evidence of this except on a very small scale. If they give their systems away they will not be able to hit tier 5. So while they may not mind if up to 10-15% of systems go to the enemy they generally donGÇÖt want to lose systems.
I do not think that is a substantial problem. If you think I am wrong on this let me know. Otherwise letGÇÖs assume that A) people like to cash out at tier 5 and further that B) they realize that in order to do that they need to hold the vast majority of systems. Most eve players will therefore see why it is in their interest to hold onto the vast majority of systems.
Right now there are 2 ways to hold onto your space in fw.
1)You can fight off people who try to capture an offensive plex before they capture it (always a pvp way)
or
2)You can run a defensive plex. (most often a pve method)
To the extent you reward the second way you are also effectively discouraging the first method of achieving their goal. The reverse is also true. To the extent the second method is undesirable the first option becomes the more common method.
This is why making defensive plexing undesirable is a good thing! It should be undesirable to defensive plex because it becomes your only option to keep your systems (and therefore tier benefits) if you do not fight people when they offensively plex your system.
If you want to make the occupancy plexing more of a pvp activity you should make the mostly pve options undesirable. If anything you should make it so that a player who runs a defensive plex must actually pay lp if they want that work to count to decontest the system. That is their tax for not defending their system in a pvp method. That will encourage people to choose the pvp method of defending systems.
There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged. I say reward the activities that make fw pvp, not the ones like defensive plexing which make it pve.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The profit is purely in offensive plexing, which means that for the dominant militia, there's more incentive in allowing the enemy to plex your system without resistance, so you can turn around and profit on the takeback. The winning militia is farming the underdog however you slice it, and to resist this advantage we have the nearly absurd situation of militias stopping at the point of taking space because it hands more money to the enemy. .
The above is pure theory that is no longer seen in practice. This may have happened earlier when amarr was gullible enough to immediately flip systems back to minmatar but now that no longer is the case. Minmatar was not just letting amarr get to tier 4. They were to some extent trying to fight in the plexes to prevent it. Kudos to qcats, em, and the minmatar in general.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The problem you fear is already taking place - pilots stay docked when the enemy comes to plex their system because its more profitable to plex once you've lost your space and are taking it back. Refusing to put up resistance to offensive plexing efforts is by definition an enormous missed PvP opportunity. .
I am all for giving incentives to encourage people to fight in plexes. However if you understand what I said above then it should be pretty clear that giving more rewards for them to wait till the enemy leaves and then open a defensive plex is not the answer.
If anything the opposite may be the answer. Make so that if you defensive plex a system it will not effect the level the system is contested unless the defensive plexer pays some lp. That way even more of the effort for keeping a system will be directed fighting in plexes instead of just running your own after the enemy leaves. We already have enough of that.
I can sit in busy minmatar systems running systems without anyone coming in. Then I come back the next day and someone dplexed it down again. I donGÇÖt know if they got some pvp in that plex but I know I donGÇÖt get any from that system. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
585
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Posted - 2012.08.22 17:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: As I said at the CSM summit, this leads to deep frustration for FC's that want just want to fight a straight-up war, because pilots would rather sit in station, let the enemy take a system (or even help them bust the bunker) just so they can profit later, or in a diferent system. This is the opposite of encouraging conflict, its encouraging players to ignore each other for financial gain. ..
Hans your fears that this theory will happen are way overblown. Minmatar flipped one vulnerable system. Big deal. The effect of this strategy was just to save the amarr some ammo. Please this strategy is talked about but it hasnGÇÖt actually worked in practice yet and for very good reason.
Moreover let me ask you what balances this game at all other than no lp for defensive plexing? It seems to me this is the only thing the side that is down has to hang their hat on and being amarr I have thought about this for a long time. What other mechanic balances things for the side with fewer numbers and is down systems?
DonGÇÖt get mad. I am not accusing you of bias when I ask this. (In fact I know your not biased so lets get that out of the way) But let me ask:
Do you think itGÇÖs too easy for the side like the amarr to get back into the game? Is that why you want to tilt the scales in favor of the side that is winning and holding the systems? ItGÇÖs a sincere question.
I mean largely due to the fact there is no lp reward for defensive plexing, amarr was able to make a push and started making systems vulnerable. Do you think that push to tier 4 was too easy for the amarr? I mean if you did then I think yes the answer would be to reward defensive plexing.
But I donGÇÖt think it was too easy. In fact I think it may be that it is still too hard and again maybe even lp would need to be paid if the defensive plexing is to count to decontest a system.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The whole mess of militias urself (and even there, efficiency encourages you to evade PvP offensively as well), none of this is providing the incentive for a militia to want to own all the systems, and to fight their best in every plex, and to chase off every attacker.
You may not see LP for defensive plexing as the solution Cearain, and that's fine, you're not alone in this opinion. But I think most players who have been active in Faction Warfare the last few months realize that the current incentive program is not doing a great job of encourage direct conflict over each and every individual plex, but rather fosters a trade mentality where you avoid conflict both offensively and defensively to chase the maximum profit in the system. ..
Well I gave you a very clear explanation of why rewarding defensive lp will make this game worse. Hopefully the fact that someone in militia chat or on your vent said it would be nice to get lp for defensive plexing, wonGÇÖt trump some actual thought on the issue.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Don't get wrong, we don't want a system where the winning militia can farm their own territory for LP endlessly through defensive plexing. I'm certainly not advocating thatGǪ..
Then the answer is easy. DonGÇÖt reward defensive plexing.
Keep in mind there probably are many people in your militia who would love a system where they can farm lp even more. This whole idea of giving lp for defensive plexing is mainly raised by minmatar who are upset that they milked the fw cow dry.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
587
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Posted - 2012.08.22 21:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think itGÇÖs too easy for the side like the amarr to get back into the game? Is that why you want to tilt the scales in favor of the side that is winning and holding the systems? ItGÇÖs a sincere question. It's also a leading question, much like "Hans, why do you want to kill all of lowsec PvP? Is that why you didn't cause a scene at the summit over Greyscale's proposed gate gun changes?" It contains a false premise, and is suggestive of the answer. For the sake of clarity, I'll take the bait this once, but since this is a thread about NPC's lets try to stick to that discussion and move this elsewhere if it has to continue. .
Hans anyone who followed what happens knows that no lp for defensive plexing was the key to our getting to tier four. To the extent you start rewarding defensive lp you erode that sole balancing factor. In practice this will just mean an even worse situation where everyone joins the winning side. Its already pretty bad.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Right now there are 2 ways to hold onto your space in fw.
1)You can fight off people who try to capture an offensive plex before they capture it (always a pvp way) 2)You can run a defensive plex. (most often a pve method)
There is a 3rd option here that is taking place, its not like these are the only two scenarios. The third option is to just let the enemy take the system, neither defensive plexing nor PvPing, and purely offensively plexing in the same system once its been flipped.You already pointed out that this "rollover" is only happening maybe 10-15% of the time - but that is well within what the winning militia can afford to lose and still maintain tier 5. If the winning militia can lose 10-15% of the systems at any given moment, and still cash out at tier 5 100% of the time, than those 10-15% of systems being flipped for profit end up being the de facto strategy for all systems, its justs that the dominant militia is going to keep a watchful eye to see that this practice is contained as much as possible. .
Contained in the other 80-90% of plexes! Thats allot of plexes you are trying to hold. And no you canGÇÖt hold a system by letting an enemy take a system. ThatGÇÖs not holding a system. Your whole premise is based on the notion that flipping your own systems is smart. But this strategy is foolish here. It has never worked well yet and even if it we do start to see that strategy it is easily countered. Amarr could just keep plexing the least contested non home system. Then which system will you flip?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
587
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Posted - 2012.08.22 21:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Whether you give up your system to farm it back (knowing full well that the temporary loss wont affect your WZC), or whether you farm your own space, its essentially the same practice - using the fact that you know you can flip a system with your available manpower to farm it, without having to move. .
This is hardly a concern. And it can be countered.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The root of this problem.
Hans you have not really offered a problem. There is no problem where minmatar are going around flipping systems to amarr so they can farm them back. They flipped labapi. And that did what for them? I think it just saved amarr some ammo and helped us hit tier4. Thanks minmatar great strategy.
You and susan black keep theorizing itGÇÖs a problem that factions will want to flip their own system but we are not actually seeing that in the game. Please donGÇÖt use this bogus nonsense as an excuse to start paying the minmatar farmers for defensive plexing.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: isn't in the reward for individual plexes, its in the WZC tiers - the fact that it is price that is modulated and not payouts is directly responsible for this controlled flipping of systems because all anyone really cares about right now is spiking the market periodically, not actually maintaining themselves at a given tier for the sake of keeping the bonus income flowing at all times. This lack of real-time reward is precisely why you see opposing militias live at tier 1 constantly - nothing motivates them to actually intercept the enemy from bleeding them down everyday (providing the pew you and I are both after) the only motivation comes when your magical number of systems is threatened, and even than its easier to let one system fall if another is easier to take unopposed instead.
This proposal is discussed else where and really not related to giving lp for defensive plexing.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: All mechanics discussion aside, the fact remains that the Amarr lost their space before rewards were implemented, and began to take it all back once they increased their numbers, cooperation, and concentrated their timezone presence - with groups like Fweddit and Nulli playing a large part in this. One came for PvP, the other for isk (so lets shelve the argument over what actually motivates people to enlist for the underdog for another day) but both were crucial in helping the Amarr begin to take back space - not because CCP suddenly switched off defensive plex payouts post-inferno. What motivates a faction to take back space isn't the one-sided payouts, its having the active manpower to begin with.
Hans you completely misunderstand why amarr started taking systems back. We started taking advantage of the rule that minmatar do not get lp rewards for defensive plexing and so we started to offensive plex instead of defensive plex and we stopped flipping systems immediately after they turned vulnerable. We did not have more numbers when we did that. In fact we had just lost a huge group of plexers in the entire 7th fleet alliance. And nulli wasnGÇÖt even in fw when we had 19 systems vulnerable.
Was it more organized? Well we were able to communiticate that people shouldnGÇÖt flip systems and that they should focus on offensive plexing but that is really it. Lots of prominent amarr thought we had given up and then found we had 19 vulnerable systems more than any other time post inferno! If minmatar were getting lp for defensive plexing this would have made this much harder if not impossible.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
587
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Posted - 2012.08.22 21:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote:Quote:There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged. I say reward the activities that make fw pvp, not the ones like defensive plexing which make it pve. I understand what you're trying to say - lets reward offensive plexing because it fosters PvP (another false premise - this guide explains why PvP actually impedes offensive plexing efforts and is a waste of time) and not reward defensive because its merely PvE. . No you donGÇÖt understand. I am challenging your premise that miltias GÇ£donGÇÖt want those systems anyway.GÇ¥ Its false despite what susan says. And yes militias do want to hold onto systems because that allows them to hit tier 5. Even though they can lose up to 20% of their systems that does not mean they want to lose those systems. Once you accept that militias really do want to hold systems there are only 2 ways to do it. Fight offensive plexers or defensive plex. Offensive plexing is mostly pvp I agree with that poster. But when you fight offensive plexers its always pvp. The problem is there is another way to hold a system other than that way which is always pvp. You can let the person capture the plex and then defensive plex after they leave system. That is a mostly pve way to hold onto systems. To the extent you reward people for that you can expect fewer to try to hold the system through the method that is always pvp. [quote=Hans Jagerblitzen] But the truth is that neither of these plexing styles are a PvP activity, and that's where we should be changing the status quo. All Faction Warfare changes have to be implemented in tandem - this means changing the nature of plexing itself as well as the reward system. Since we're working on the plex content too, there's no reason to base future recommendations regarding the payout system on a current model of plexing that we're trying to transform anyways.
The only thing ccp needs to do to fix this is let people know where others are running plexes and implement some sort of count down mechanic if you run when an enemy lands on grid.
If you start giving lp for defensive plexing though then this will really be broken.
People are still working out strategies for the tier and reward system. ItGÇÖs not broken.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
588
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Posted - 2012.08.23 13:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mortromain wrote:Cearain wrote: There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged. Of course it should, especially for FW. you should be able to make a living out of every activity available in the game, and this is even more important for PvP activities where you actually loose stuff. if defensive plexing is not desirable, remove it, but right now if you want to defend your territory, you either plex and get nothing, or you hunt for the attackers but they will flee and you will gain nothing. ( and the system will stay contested) if you want to avoid farmers, make it so that plex rewards are less than mission rewards, farmers will do missions. If you want people to engage in very uncertain fights, make system control worth it in the long run.
Yes of course, we should reward people for letting the enemy capture plexes in their systems. Lets reward them by giving them lp for doing a defensive plex after the enemy leaves. That will encourage pvp.
Mortromain wrote:Also : Cearain wrote: The only thing ccp needs to do to fix this is let people know where others are running plexes and implement some sort of count down mechanic if you run when an enemy lands on grid. while i agree with the second point, the first seems like a "join fight" button to me. Intel gathering is an important aspect of Eve. For the NPC modifs, the question is what do we want : - NPC adds immersion - if the NPCs are too strong, adapted fit will be used and pvp fight are less likely to happen and i think plex should be captured faster if you are more in it, right now, you should split if you want to have a bigger impact.
If you like to waste hours warping around for looking for fights eve already offers allot for you. This is why the game is not hitting any sort of big numbers. You supposedly join the largest war dec and it still takes hours of warping to find a fight. Not everyone in the world has hours of free time warping around for every 2 minute fight.
Its absolutely insane that when an enemy attacks you faction military facility you have no way to know this unless you happen to stumble upon them while warping around.
But anyway I am not surprised that there are allot of people who are afraid their alts won't be able to hide and plex in fw. They are making allot of isk doing that after all.
I love the people who claim they want this to be pvp, but as soon as someone says well then lets have a system where the enemy knows where you are attacking their complexes, they complain.
Bottom line is your alts won't be able to plex anymore and whoever plexes better be ready to fight for it. If you don't like that then don't join in on the biggest pvp wardec in the game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
588
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Posted - 2012.08.23 14:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mortromain wrote:Meditril wrote: If you like to waste hours warping around for looking for fights eve already offers allot for you. This is why the game is not hitting any sort of big numbers. You supposedly join the largest war dec and it still takes hours of warping to find a fight. Not everyone in the world has hours of free time warping around for every 2 minute fight. You are exagerating this, in FW, it takes less than 15 min to find a WT, and the enemy fleets positions are updated on the militia chan, It doesn't mean that you have a fight, but knowing where the WT is doesn't guarantee it either. Meditril wrote: But anyway I am not surprised that there are allot of people who are afraid their alts won't be able to hide and plex in fw. They are making allot of isk doing that after all.
I love the people who claim they want this to be pvp, but as soon as someone says well then lets have a system where the enemy knows where you are attacking their complexes, they complain.
That is why CCP should lower plex rewards below other farming activities
Just knowing the location of a fleet is not getting a fight. You then have the endless shipping up and down. Your original complaint was this is a "get fight button." Its not really that, but yes it would *greatly* help people who want to pvp to find fights. Which is a huge problem in eve whether you realize it or not.
As far as reducing the rewards - well if they make plexing a pvp mechanic people might actually need those rewards to buy new ships. If you are losing your ship and therefore not capturing every other plex that lp might be handy just to replace your ships. Reducing the rewards based on the current pve set up is not wise - unless the intent is to leave it as a pve mechanic.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
589
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Posted - 2012.08.23 19:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mortromain wrote:Cearain wrote: Just knowing the location of a fleet is not getting a fight. You then have the endless shipping up and down. Your original complaint was this is a "get fight button." Its not really that, but yes it would *greatly* help people who want to pvp to find fights. Which is a huge problem in eve whether you realize it or not.
I realize that this is not a huge problem in FW, you have tools to get fight : intel chat, scouts, map statistics (wich include FW stat), and system status monitoring. I like this process, so i would consider it a feature removal. But i understand that some people don't like this.
FW is probably the best in eve but its still pretty terrible. It is not that rare to go 2 or 3 hours without a good fight.
All of eve has intel chat, scouts and map statistics. The only added tool fw has is the fw stat sheet which really isn't that much more helpful in finding a fight.
Like I said you might be fine with getting about 1 decent fight per hour. But its a big reason why eve is criticized for being boring and slow. FW can be a mechanic where people could regularly get 7-10 fights every 2 hours. People like you who like looking at maps and have alts scout around could still do that in other areas like wormholes, null sec, and low sec generally as a pirate. FW could be an option for people who like a bit more frequent combat.
Cearain wrote:As far as reducing the rewards - well if they make plexing a pvp mechanic people might actually need those rewards to buy new ships. If you are losing your ship and therefore not capturing every other plex that lp might be handy just to replace your ships. Reducing the rewards based on the current pve set up is not wise - unless the intent is to leave it as a pve mechanic.
I'm not sure i understand what you call a pvp mechanics in this case, Do you mean that capturing can only be done upon PvP fighting?[/quote]
No.
But if ccp did things like let us know when military plexes are attacked so players could defend them, and had a form of timer count down if peope warped out of the plex when an enemy was on grid. And if they made it so the rats dps don't make it so people can't fly pvp ships. These are things that would make plexing a pvp mechanic instead of the pve mechanic it is now.
If they did these things you would probably see the number of pvp fights per plex captured go from 2% to 70%. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
595
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Posted - 2012.09.01 03:22:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I don't feel tech 2 frigates are balanced in the proposed small plexes and certainly not against Tech 1 frigates even the rebalanced ones. Assault ships will be the new top frig, even destroyers the cheap pvp option for countering frigs will have a hard time especially those with restricted damage types against racial resists.-á
I certainly hope that there is not the kind of power creep that Tech one cruisers can compete with HACs. Buffing T1 cruises would mean they are more viable along side navy and pirate cruisers but I would consider ships like the vexor and thorax quite well balanced and still far off the HAC versions whose nearest T1 competition is really battlecruisers.
I too think the current plex restrictions are better than the proposed new ones. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
595
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Posted - 2012.09.01 03:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I do not feel the capture beacon location should change, at least not as much as you are suggesting.
Yeah it just means I will lose a few more ruptures to cynabals (and now vagabonds) unless I am sitting there spamming the dscan like a ninny.
Also like you said the distance helped for when blobs jumped in. Keeping everything right at the warp in will lead to more ganks but it won't lead to any more decent fights.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
595
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Posted - 2012.09.01 03:31:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that?
Unless they are going to be able to compete with hacs its hard to see what place they will have in faction war.
These faction plex restriction changes seem like a big boost to t2 industry. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
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595
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Posted - 2012.09.01 03:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
Overall these changes to npcs are very good. This will allow people to pvp in plexes without the rats being a major nuisance. Thats half the battle won!
But really the plexes will still best be done in pve ships and by avoiding pvp.
Until we get a notification system and/or some sort of timer countback (even jsut a couple of minutes back) that won't change. Its too bad these ideas aren't front and center for winter as they address the fact that faction war is really a carebear race.
The whole moving the button closer to warp in is a bad idea though. If i wanted to compulsively hit dscan I would be in a wormhole.
As far as stopping the timer as long as you are anywhere on grid, I am not sure I get why you are doing that. Not only will kiting ships get an unnecessary boost but, can people just cloak up and go afk preventing the plex to be captured and therefore new ones to spawn?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
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Posted - 2012.09.01 10:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Let me second what someone else already said. It's great to see you posting these ideas in the forums asking for some feedback.
I don't mean to be overly negative about this. I think the rookie plex would be a very good addition to the other plexes.
But if you just combine all ships into the other three it gets a little crampled. You basically turn mediums into smalls with afs. And major restricted into mediums with hacs but no bcs. Now all but the rookie plexes get a bit expensive if you want to run them solo. I would rather lose cruisers than one hac.
Let me ask some questions:
A firetail or a slicer would fit in a small one right? But a firetail and slicer only do about 200 dps on a good day. (I actually don't fly either but think its a bit lower for most pvp fits) An incursus can do about that much damage as well. So we will still have t1 frigates running mediums, or we will have no plexes that our navy frigates can run.
As far as the large plexes you will have to base the damage on what a t1 cruiser can do. And well many destroyers can put out the damage of a cruiser. The tank may be a problem but probably not if you pve it up. If you have the rats do too much damage for those types of ships you will probably have them do too much damage for a pvp ship that should be fitting a point etc.
You will find that a ship set up for pve will always be able to out tank and gank a pvp ship. They don't have to worry about a scram or other ewar or tracking and other things that win in pvp. And they typically know exactly what tank they need. This is why to avoid plexing being a pve activity you also need to do some other things like a form of timer countdown and notifications.
Maybe your sleeper AI covers this. But I think it would be very hard to do. Players pretty much learn the minminmum to beat just about any pve ship in about a month or 2. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
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Posted - 2012.09.01 10:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Quote:Personally I hate Eve for forcing all fights to happen next to gates or stations. Further promoting this is bad imo.
All other changes mentioned seem to be pretty good though. The problem was, that you could hardly intercept someone in a site, because you had to use the acceleration gate and once you dropped he saw you 90km away and just warped out. It prevented PvP, simple as that.
No it prevented allot of ganks and made it so you didn't have to compulsively hit dscan. That was all. Now you have more t1 pvp ships getting ganked by hacs and afs. Now if you will have to compulsively hit the dscan if you want to avoid the blob landing right on top of you. This is not really an improvement.
If you want to ganks do the whole gate camp thing. Don't make fw plexes revolve around that.
What has been preventing fights is the fact that you run plexes much more efficiently in a pve ship. Nothing in the winter proposals changes that.
Bottom line is I can fit more stabs on a cruiser than I can on a frigate. So yes i will be in a cruiser but because I can still hide in my plex I will be better off just leaving if an enemy does come. Just like now I can leave the plex run and run another a system or 2 away. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
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Posted - 2012.09.01 11:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:let me summarize that:
- you are in a low-security system and you know that everyone there can and probably will try to kill you - you are in a ship not equipped for PvP - you are in a public available position and know that anyone can warp to you any second - you refuse to hit the scanner frequently even when probably hostile players enter the local
. . .
And you still want the environment protecting your while making money? Seriously?
Note: 99% if all people who are "ganked" while doing PvE made a lot of mistakes previously that lead to the outcome. If FW should be mainly about PvP, the environment should not prevent it.
Let me summarize some things for you:
People should be able to expect to see an enemy come in when they are attacking the enemies complex.
Plexing should be about pvp.
Your style of ganking people with several ship classes higher or greater numbers should not replace the current mechanics.
CCP is essentially saying well we will leave plexing a pve mechanic but just make it a bit easier to gank the pvers unless the pvers do some tedious task like spam dscan. This is the wrong approach.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
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Posted - 2012.09.01 11:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:you "see" your "enemy" in local at least a minute before he comes into your plex? you then "see" him on dscan if you are not too lazy to do the click once you have hostiles in local and then you "see" him entering your grid which gives you about 10 more seconds to decide if you want to fight or run - more than enough for a frigate to warp out, even for a cruiser of you care to pre-align once you "see enemies" in local.
still not enough? pfffff....
You don't get it.
Plexing should not be a game of gank the pver. You are applying the pirate versus carebear dynamic to the wrong part of eve. We have enough of that already in eve.
I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob.
The other mechanics like notifications and timer rollback are the mechanic changes that make plexing a pvp mechanic without making it a silly gank the pver game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
600
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Posted - 2012.09.04 13:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Cearain wrote:Syzygium wrote:you "see" your "enemy" in local at least a minute before he comes into your plex? you then "see" him on dscan if you are not too lazy to do the click once you have hostiles in local and then you "see" him entering your grid which gives you about 10 more seconds to decide if you want to fight or run - more than enough for a frigate to warp out, even for a cruiser of you care to pre-align once you "see enemies" in local.
still not enough? pfffff.... You don't get it. Plexing should not be a game of gank the pver. You are applying the pirate versus carebear dynamic to the wrong part of eve. We have enough of that already in eve. I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob. The other mechanics like notifications and timer rollback are the mechanic changes that make plexing a pvp mechanic without making it a silly gank the pver game. I do get it. It is just my opinion, that there are quite enough chances to avoid being caught in case someone don't want to fight. The plex being 70k off the Accgate just shifts the balance way too much in favor of the one being inside because he needs zero attention and can still evade all and every combat. Since I am a fan of good balance, I like the proposed change. The one wanting to make the catch needs to be quick, the one wanting to escape needs to be careful. Good thing.
Did I mention that I run plexes when there are allot of wts in system? Because I plex hopeing for pvp your comment about looking at local misses the point entirely. I want pvp I don't want plexing turned into another blob mechanic where the enemy lands right on top of you.
As far as your comment about being to lazy to use the dscan. I do use the dscan. But I don't need to constantly spam it the way it is set up now. Moving the button closer to the warp in just means I have to constantly mash the dscan like a korean kid on a ninetendo. I am not interested in that. That is the point.
You don't have 10 seconds from the time you see someone laning on grid. Sorry.
Look plexing is currently a good way for small scale pvp. This moving the button closer to warp in just tends to decrease that. Now people in t1 insured ships looking for pvp will just have more of them lost to tech 2 ships because they weren't spamming the dscan like someone with a hand tremor.
This change demonstrates that CCP seems unable to understand there can be more to pvp in eve than pirates/blobs looking to gank carebears.
There are other ways to promote pvp in plexes that promotes quality fights. Those methods would include a timer countback if you warp out after an enemy or neutral lands on grid and some way militias could know where plexes are being attacked. But ccp decided to leave that out.
Instead they are just making this another mechanic where helpless carebear trys to run from blobs and blobs try to catch carebears. You know like everywhere else in eve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
602
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Posted - 2012.09.04 16:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cearain wrote:I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob.
So hit dscan before you actually warp into the plex. Heaven forbid you use the tools available to you to garner intelligence.
Nothing about this changes how you enter a plex. The concerns deal with when you are already in the plex how often you need to keep mashing the dscan. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
605
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Cearain wrote:Syzygium wrote: I do get it. It is just my opinion, that there are quite enough chances to avoid being caught in case someone don't want to fight. The plex being 70k off the Accgate just shifts the balance way too much in favor of the one being inside because he needs zero attention and can still evade all and every combat.
Since I am a fan of good balance, I like the proposed change. The one wanting to make the catch needs to be quick, the one wanting to escape needs to be careful. Good thing. Did I mention that I run plexes when there are allot of wts in system? Because I plex hopeing for pvp your comment about looking at local misses the point entirely. I want pvp I don't want plexing turned into another blob mechanic where the enemy lands right on top of you. As far as your comment about being to lazy to use the dscan. I do use the dscan. But I don't need to constantly spam it the way it is set up now. Moving the button closer to the warp in just means I have to constantly mash the dscan like a korean kid on a ninetendo. I am not interested in that. That is the point. You don't have 10 seconds from the time you see someone laning on grid. Sorry. Look plexing is currently a good way for small scale pvp. This moving the button closer to warp in just tends to decrease that. Now people in t1 insured ships looking for pvp will just have more of them lost to tech 2 ships because they weren't spamming the dscan like someone with a hand tremor. This change demonstrates that CCP seems unable to understand there can be more to pvp in eve than pirates/blobs looking to gank carebears. There are other ways to promote pvp in plexes that promotes quality fights. Those methods would include a timer countback if you warp out after an enemy or neutral lands on grid and some way militias could know where plexes are being attacked. But ccp decided to leave that out. Instead they are just making this another mechanic where helpless carebear trys to run from blobs and blobs try to catch carebears. You know like everywhere else in eve. 70+ km as it is now may be too much distance, but on the flip side Cerain is right that 10km would be ridiculous. And yes dscan mashing is one of the most ******** requirements in the game atm. One of the reasons I won't bother with wormholes even though on the whole they are attractive. So there has to be some distance between 70 and 10 that would present some danger for inattention while at the same time not make the person in the plex instant gank meat for the attacker(s). Oh look, 40km, a midpoint between those two values. So If one wants one could mash the dscan or one could just pay attention and be quick on the fight or flight response. And on the flip side the attacker needs some fast tackle to enter, some of which he might lose in order to get that tackle. Seems like a decent solution. 40km
If you do allot of plexes you will find that even if you pick busy systems with allot of wartargets you will only get someone to fight enter every 40 minutes or so of plexing.
I tend to hit the dscsan every 30 seconds or so, I mean I still want to see if there is an ecm ship on scan etc, and if I see someone that can come in the plex, I will hit it more intently at shorter ranges.
So doing plexes right now requires a reasonable amount of dscanning. I don't think it should require even more. That will just make what is often a boring activity boring and annoying. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
605
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Posted - 2012.09.04 22:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Cearain wrote:So doing plexes right now requires a reasonable amount of dscanning. I don't think it should require even more. That will just make what is often a boring activity boring and annoying. Another thing that happens is that you scan someone at the gate and don't know if it's friendly or not. Currently you can wait and see, and not to have run away too early from a hopeless fight with a Dramiel or something. I expect in winter to see a lot more chatter in Militia like "is the ship named 'Floris' in Sahtogas friendly?", and more complaints about blue intel: "don't ask if my Redeemer is friendly, ffs" If you really want to promote ambushes, an acceleration gate inside the plex that leads back to the acceleration gate outside it, that would see some use.
Excellent point. Often I have figured I would get a fight only to find the guy entering is friendly. Now I will have to be aligning much more often possibly outside the range of the button and hoping the lag gods favor me.
Why can't ccp just do what the people who plex want them to do instead of screwing everything up in random ways?
The whole being on grid stops the timer sounds like they are actually legitimizing what used to be considered an exploit. Or will they make sure you can't stop the timer by cloaking?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
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Posted - 2012.09.13 21:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Without doing more than skim the rest of the thread (sorry) a couple of points:
1: Plex's should never be able to be done solo. Instead of removing NPC EW effects, they should have been balanced to be equally effective for all races. There is far too much solo farming going on currently.
The problem is the farming not the solo. If you want to do group farming you can do high sec missions. Faction war plexes should be about frequent quality pvp without the blobs.
Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs.
Ranger 1 wrote: 2: Missions should never be able to be solo'd by a frigate (not even a stealth bomber) save for possibly level 1 missions. It is far too easy to evade gate camps in a single frig and does nothing but promote solo farming of the system. Larger ships needing to travel behind enemy lines would change the dynamic (and level of cooperation necessary) by quite a bit.
Not really. MWD cloak and you can bring a battleship just about anywhere in low sec.
Missions are pretty much fine with the exception that they should have their payouts nerfed, if plexing becomes more of a pvp activity.
Ranger 1 wrote: 3: Currently players find themselves in positions where they are threatened or war dec'd for taking enemy systems... by their own fellow militia members... because leaving them "vulnerable" makes farming easier. This situation absolutely must change, even if it involves making NPC kills pay zero loyalty points and upping the rewards for killing opposing militia members. If you want to limit people abusing this, place a limit of one LP payout per day for killing a particular character. You could also consider LP payouts not for taking plexes, but for taking systems.
I'm not sure what the issue is here. Yes there is currently a strategy on how a militias flip systems. So yeah if a corp purposely screws the rest of the militia they will be unpopular. Unless you want to make it so there is no strategy or planning involved, this will always be the case.
The proposed changes to the tier system do tend to make it so there is no strategy or planning involved in faction war. But I don't really think that is a good thing. Just sort of dumbs it down.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
640
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Posted - 2012.11.09 19:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
Are these changes still planned?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
Perosnally I'm not thrilled with this one because I don't like to have to spam the dscan button to avoid getting blobbed. IMO this won't lead to more fights it will just lead to more ganks.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
640
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Posted - 2012.11.09 19:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* * Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
Rookie plexes will be the only place to fly t1 hulls? I like the rookie plex but I would prefer they just add it to the current line up of plexes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
649
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Posted - 2012.11.18 16:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:So on Buckingham the new plex sizes seem to be in place and the warp in now seems to drop you 10km from the button, that is very close not really sure that is a good change.
Well now when you run a plex you will have to constantly spam your dscan. This combined with the changes to the size restrictions will mean less quality pvp fights and more ganks.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
650
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Posted - 2012.11.19 14:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:i don't like it very much that the flag moved that close to the warpin. This makes all kiting or sniping setups even more risky to use as they already are, since you will have to prepare to brawl if you want to fight inside a plex. Right now on TQ you still have the chance that the wt is at the flag and not at the warpin, this option won't be there anymore after the change.
I believe the reasoning behind this change was to create more fights and encourage pvp setups in plexes. But i am not sure if thats the right way to encourage those (people would just run earlier... close range dscan and warp). I posted somewhere some time ago that i would prefer to give the plexer a good reason why he should stay and fight. Easiest way i can imagine would be backwards running timers if you leave the plex. Dev response was "still in discussion" or something like that... Seems like CCP decided against it. :-(
I think they are doing the backward timer too.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
650
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Posted - 2012.11.19 16:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
Deerin wrote:It is a matter of kiting ship vs brawling ship.
Right now brawling ships need to make a tactical decission if they want to capture the plex. After spotting the enemy on short scan you have around 30-40 seconds of time to move from button to beacon. If you can manage it, you just might be able to snatch the kiting ship at the acc gate exit. If you can't, you are in for a tough fight where you'll try to slingshot the enemy in before they eat up all your EHP.
With the new change the brawler ships can just camp the exit beacon AND run the plex simultaneously. The kiting ship pilots will hesitate to enter plexes.
They won't hesitate. They won't enter at all unless they want to lose their ship.
But it is not just brawling versus kiting. If I am in a brawling ship now and someone warps in I can try to catch them at the warp in. Or I can stay on the button or align away from warp in to see how they are actually fit. For example most destroyers and frigates can be fit as kiting or brawler. Are they mwd fit? Are they shooting with long range guns? etc. This space between the two combatants helps good players make educated decisions.
This new warp in will mean more decisions will need to be made before the enemy is even on grid. Hence we will have allot more warp offs where there at least potentially could be fights. Either that or people will just agree to make pvp more of a crap shoot. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
650
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Posted - 2012.11.19 16:21:00 -
[58] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Deerin wrote:It is a matter of kiting ship vs brawling ship. right. but why has it been changed? It limits the options for no good reason. At least i see none.
I think the reason is ccp hopes more people would get ganked if they are not spamming the dscan. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
654
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Posted - 2012.11.21 14:29:00 -
[59] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:The NPcGÇÖs now seem to have changed; I only encountered one wave of one NPC in each plex. NPC is there on warp in no more NPCGÇÖs spawned.
My vexors drones easily dealt with the cruiser in a medium, I returned in an incurses to tackle the next wave no more NPCGÇÖs.
In the same incursus, single rep about 200dps with void I then: -
Easily killed the frigate in a Rookie.
Tanked the destroyer in a Small for a bit before killing it.
Killed a cruiser in a medium facility.
Killed a battlecruiser in a large compound. This took a little while (couple minutes tops) but orbiting close I was in no danger. Did not even need repper.
I assume these are not finished and that more will be introduced. In the larger sites I feel it the frigates (not present now) that will need to be beefed up, a single battlecruiser is easy to speed tank.
Thanks for posting this information.
What sort of tags did they drop?
It sounds like rats active tanks need to be beefed up a bit. But really I think its foolish for ccp to assume rats will be the protection of faction war. To the extent CCP keep focusing on rats as the defense, plexing will remain a farming pve game.
CCP needs to focus on giving players the tools they need to defend their space. Unfortunately I do not see anything in retribution that will accomplish that.
Lots of time and resources spent changing tiers around and lots of resources tweaking with npcs. Nothing to help players defend their space through pvp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
654
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Posted - 2012.11.21 14:36:00 -
[60] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:So combined with frigate revision, FW will be nothing but?
CCP obviously need to tweak some more if all sizes can be done in a single hull as the whole point of the NPC/Plex revamp is to avoid that very scenario .. doesn't much matter if the frig is gunless as now/before or if its a generic pew fit, they should have a hard time in mediums and an impossible time in majors .. we need it to require appropriate ships and or gang operations dammit!
What options are there to avoid the solo frig scenario: - Neuts on cruisers, BCs, BS? - Webs on cruisers, BCs, BS? - Tackling frigs added to pool (kill first and exploit tracking I guess, so bad option)? - Destructible sentry guns?
You forgot enemy players coming in a major plex in a bc. That should be able to keep frigates from capturing major plexes.
All this talk the "npcs are too strong" the "npcs are too weak." Its a waste of time. Npcs shouldn't be what is driving the game. Do away with them entirely and give players the tools they need to defend their entire space through pvp. Players have been turned off by the pve nature of faction war since it started.
Yet 4 years later after a full expansion on faction war and the announcements of second we really don't hear a word about tools to help players fight for occupancy through pvp. Just daily updates about how they are changing lp payments and rats around. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
679
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Posted - 2012.11.30 16:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:It is reinventing the wheel where no reinvention needs to be done. The most annoying thing about minors is the endless frigate spawns. There is what, seven or eight spawns?? That is annoying but the rats themselves are not a threat in a minor.
Rats in mediums and majors only interfere if there is a full spawn. Make the spawn one at a time - issue solved.
Plexing is a sov mechanic. It needs to be time consuming. One rat at a time is a joke. If this rolls out as is on TQ Amarr will be on their heels again.
CCP is doing it right.
If you don't want people to plex in an undersized ship then take an appropriately sized ship (whatever that means) and chase them out. We really shouldn't be depending on npcs to defend our space anyway. We need more tools so we can do that.
But yes the full spawns of the rats are a real problem for medium and major plexes. Even one spawn at a time limits the pvp fits you can use. Not everyone wants to fly a long range rail naga in pvp.
Will the rats the amarr face be more difficult? Why do you say it will hurt the amarr?
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
679
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Posted - 2012.11.30 17:15:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Axl Borlara wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Lili Lu wrote:It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment. I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens. You are missing the point. Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex. However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well. It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs. Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction). We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers.
I think the improvements to the t1 cruisers indeed might make this change easier to deal with.
However even with the changes I think the deimos will be pretty hard to beat in a t1 cruiser. So will a kiting vagabond. But this really won't change much since the current mechanics really favore the cynabal and vigilant. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
691
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Posted - 2012.12.06 20:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
Friendly rats attack my drones when I have them out.
They attack them even though I have high standing with the faction and do not attack the rats first.
Is this intended? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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