Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Kes Yogaila
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 05:00:00 -
[1]
Trying to figure out if spending extra money on faction ammo pays off with faster completion times enough to be worthwile as in more isk per hour. Is generally using navy cruise missiles on CNR considered "profitable"? If so, what missions or mission types. Thanks in advance.
|
Nareg Maxence
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 05:15:00 -
[2]
Faction ammo is for PVP.
|
Terminus Vindictus
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 07:55:00 -
[3]
I've used CN missiles to increase my profitability running L4's before I trained for T2's. I still use the CN's for some missions if I fly my Drake and I need to reduce my sig radius over the T2's. Yes, they're worth it because of the increase in ISK/hour - it makes up for the added expense of the missiles, plus you end up using fewer missiles AND you decrease your mission time.
I don't know if there's a correlation between high skills and the benefits from using CN missiles (i.e. if you need to already have high skills to get the most benefit). You should do your own analysis and figure out if they work for you. A quick and dirty way to do it is using EFT to compare your DPS before and after using the CN's. If you're looking at L4's, pick a nominal mission time of about 60 minutes, and using about 4000 missiles. Using the difference in DPS, reduce the mission time and the number of missiles used by that percentage, then figure out if the increase in ISK/hour justifies the cost of the missiles in ISK and LP.
Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help. |
GyokZoli
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 09:39:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila Trying to figure out if spending extra money on faction ammo pays off with faster completion times enough to be worthwile as in more isk per hour. Is generally using navy cruise missiles on CNR considered "profitable"? If so, what missions or mission types. Thanks in advance.
I fly a Nighthawk so I use Fury Heavies (even higher DPS than faction missiles and cheaper) against BCs and BSs and then - if still some present - I switch to normal heavies to kill the remaining cruisers. I finish an average level 4 mission maybe in around 30 minutes. The easiest are 5-15 minutes long, the hardest (like AE with bonus room) are 1 hour long.
|
Opertone
Caldari Internal Anarchy
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 09:44:00 -
[5]
faction torpedoes are worth it, faction laser crystals are worth it, faction cruise are probably worth it too
for hybrid weapons and projectiles, in my point of view the t2 options offer more power for less buck;
Tech 2 sentry drones use no ammo, train for a sin...
|
Irdia Freelancer
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:17:00 -
[6]
Faction laser crystals generally +20% damage and last 4000 shots.
Some places these cost about 1.3 mil for the most expensive (large multifreq) lens = about 325 isk/shot.
Gives you a comparison to other hybrid/projectile/missile ammo rates. The advantage of the amarr lasers is one lens is 1 mtr space and gives 4000 shots, while the hybrid/projectile/missiles are much more bulk.
If you have a battleship that your barely dropping the shields of with a plain multifreq crystal, then the faction +20% version just tears down the same target. If your barely taking down the target in say 120 shots (about 66 secs) then the +20% damage may about halve the time to kill the ship (save 30 secs costing up to about 20k isk on a ship bounty of 250-1400k isk). ie very worth while. The reason why the 20% increase in damage makes such a difference is that you introduce damage to overwhelm the shiedl regen or active shield/armor tanking. Missiles have difference in exposive radius/velocity etc so need to look more carefully at each to compare. In the same way the ship bonuses to damage just as useful, eg the abaddon +5%/lvl (lvl 4 trained = faction ammo, level 5 of +25% beats faction ammo). Put faction ammo on an abaddon etc and it chews npcs even better. So angels fall quickest to Min autocannons, they dont take long with amarr guns/abbadon either. Slip a couple of faction heat sinks on the abaddon so get ship bonus, faction ammo bonus, heat sink bonuses - all while only T1 trained, ie can have within days of starting to fly your battleship to help you complete mission much faster. The heat sinks actually do more than either the faction ammo or the ship bonuses on the abaddon by increaseing rate of fire plus increasing damage. I run 2 heat sinks as standard for level 4 missions, faction ammo, abaddon ship bonus. I dont have T2 trained yet and that will be better again. Each weapon type has its heat sink equivilent - I would suggest these as much or even more than faction ammo.
T2 crystals only 2000 shots each, higher skill requirements. Get damage bonus of the T2 skills on top above those of faction crystals. Take a T2 weapon of 3.6x mulitplier, with skills of 2%/lvl this is like 3.6 + 10% (skill 5, x2%) = 3.96 before the added damage of the T2 ammo. The faction gun only 3.75 so trained T2 gun already better than it before have T2 ammo. Compare the T2 ammo with T1 faction ammo and they hit much harder. I haven't looked at T2 non laser weaps yet, being an amarr ...
|
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
T2 crystals only 2000 shots each, higher skill requirements. Get damage bonus of the T2 skills on top above those of faction crystals. Take a T2 weapon of 3.6x mulitplier, with skills of 2%/lvl this is like 3.6 + 10% (skill 5, x2%) = 3.96 before the added damage of the T2 ammo. The faction gun only 3.75 so trained T2 gun already better than it before have T2 ammo. Compare the T2 ammo with T1 faction ammo and they hit much harder.
WRONG.
1. t2 crystals have 100-infinity shots (1000 on average - peak value).
2. when using t2 guns both navy and t2 crystal will give almost same damage boost (about 20% for faction and 20,5% for t2 or sth like that).
Comparing those numbers above t2 crystal is ALWAYS worse than faction (both isk-wise and damage wise due to tracking). The only reason to use t2 ammo instead of faction is: lack of faction ammo nearby (no problem for mission runners) and need of more thermal damage for some NPCs (rare case anyways). This is ofc true only for short range t2 ammo (gleam, conflag). Scorch is awesome.
|
Ghengis Tia
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:44:00 -
[8]
I never use faction missiles, altho I may use T2 missiles once I get into my Nighthawk.
If you get 15% greater damage with any given faction ammo, you can basically run 6 missions in the time it took you to do five. Do you really run that many missions in a row every time you log on? Saving 10 minutes on a 60 minute mission looks good on paper, but do you use that time savings to run another mission?
In Jita, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missiles are roughly 1100 Isk. Standard scourge will run you 35 isk tops. 3000 CN Scourge costs you 3.3 mil isk. 3000 Standard Scourge costs you 105K. You spend roughly 3.2 million per mission just to save that 10 minutes.
Or look at it this way, that sixth mission better earn you 20 million Isk just to break even.
Using faction missiles in PVE just can't be justified, as my accountant has so aptly pointed out. The same thing may hold true for other ammo/charge types, but do the math.
|
Cade Morrigan
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 13:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila Trying to figure out if spending extra money on faction ammo pays off with faster completion times enough to be worthwile as in more isk per hour. Is generally using navy cruise missiles on CNR considered "profitable"? If so, what missions or mission types. Thanks in advance.
On my Nighthawk I use Scourge Heavies versus anything less than a BS, and I use tech 2 Fury against BS. I just kill BCs with the tech 1 missiles because it takes the same number of salvos with them as it does using tech 2. |
K'uata Sayus
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 14:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Kes Yogaila Trying to figure out if spending extra money on faction ammo pays off with faster completion times enough to be worthwile as in more isk per hour. Is generally using navy cruise missiles on CNR considered "profitable"? If so, what missions or mission types. Thanks in advance.
On my Nighthawk I use Scourge Heavies versus anything less than a BS, and I use tech 2 Fury against BS. I just kill BCs with the tech 1 missiles because it takes the same number of salvos with them as it does using tech 2.
Thanks for tip on the BS/T2 Furies, I'll give it a try.
EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM. |
|
Gavin DeVries
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 15:05:00 -
[11]
Two nights ago I spent almost 280 million to buy 7x CN Cruise Missile Launchers. They worked out to about a 10% damage increase on my CNR with my usual anti-Sansha fitting. CN Paradise Cruise Missiles are a 15% damage increase over regular Paradise missiles. Even if they cost me 2000 per missile, I would have to buy 140,000 CN Paradise Cruise Missiles to equal that outlay. People will pay 80 million for a single faction damage mod that adds less than 15% to damage, so yes I think it's worth it. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Terminus Vindictus
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 15:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Terminus Vindictus on 21/05/2009 15:39:48
Originally by: Ghengis Tia Do you really run that many missions in a row every time you log on? Saving 10 minutes on a 60 minute mission looks good on paper, but do you use that time savings to run another mission?
Yes, and yes. It's a matter of average ISK/hour, so it counts.
Originally by: Ghengis Tia Or look at it this way, that sixth mission better earn you 20 million Isk just to break even.
It does. If you don't selectively run L4 missions, then you're wasting your time or not doing it to maximize your profit.
Originally by: Ghengis Tia Using faction missiles in PVE just can't be justified, as my accountant has so aptly pointed out. The same thing may hold true for other ammo/charge types, but do the math.
It all depends on the price of the missiles you can sell on the market (I use the Buy price specifically since I'm not a trader and I don't put up stuff for sale). There's a break-even point above which it makes sense to sell CN missiles and not use them, and below which it makes sense to use CN missiles. I've found that break-even point to be somewhere around 800 ISK per missile. It's quite possible that point is different for different people, so I'm not caliming that price to be universal. If you can reliably sell your missiles for at least that, then you make more by using T1 missiles and selling the CN missiles using your LP. With the price of CN Scourges the way it is right now, it seems worth selling them. If it falls back down below 800, you're better off using them for missions.
Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help. |
Mystafyre
Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 17:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila Trying to figure out if spending extra money on faction ammo pays off with faster completion times enough to be worthwile as in more isk per hour. Is generally using navy cruise missiles on CNR considered "profitable"? If so, what missions or mission types. Thanks in advance.
With marauders, yes.
|
Arfvedson
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 19:44:00 -
[14]
T2 ammo is better than Faction. T2 ammo is much much cheaper than faction. Whats the problem?
|
Gavin DeVries
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 20:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Arfvedson T2 ammo is better than Faction in some situations. T2 ammo is much much cheaper than faction. Whats the problem?
Fixed that for you. Shoot a Paradise Fury Cruise Missile at a Sansha battleship. Now shoot a Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile at the same rat. Now shoot a regular Paradise Cruise Missile at the same ship. What's the order of applied damage? Probably CN > T1 > Fury in that case. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Arfvedson
|
Posted - 2009.05.21 22:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gavin DeVries
Originally by: Arfvedson T2 ammo is better than Faction in some situations. T2 ammo is much much cheaper than faction. Whats the problem?
Fixed that for you. Shoot a Paradise Fury Cruise Missile at a Sansha battleship. Now shoot a Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile at the same rat. Now shoot a regular Paradise Cruise Missile at the same ship. What's the order of applied damage? Probably CN > T1 > Fury in that case.
Well with a TP the fury would do more. And if your a missile user now, it's pretty much a requirement to have one. Also, you completely neglected to mention precisions which even with a lower base damage tend to do more than regular on most targets.
|
Gul Rashen
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:26:00 -
[17]
Equip a CNR with 1 Rigor II, 1 Rigor I and 1 Flare II and a TP and then shoot a Fury-CM and a CN-CM at a BS and you will see that the CN-Missile is still doing more damage.
|
Sir Bum
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:16:00 -
[18]
I always use faction ammo on my lasers, they rock and make me mission more efficiently. T2 ammo is specialized ammo and should only be used in special cases since they only have an advantage in those cases.
|
vanBuskirk
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:29:00 -
[19]
IMHO, extremely doubtful that faction ammo is worth it - unless you are flying a marauder, in which case it definitely is, especially with turret weapons where defenders aren't a factor.
Kronos, marauders IV, 5% all hybrid damage implant, 3x MS II, 4x 425 II, Gallente antimatter (same as Caldari BTW), surgical strike V - gives around 3000 damage per volley.
One thing that is worth mentioning, and I have had large costs imposed by forgetting it myself: If the mission involves demolition work (whether as a mission requirement or otherwise) - TAKE SOME NORMAL AMMO!!
Having to blow up a building with Fed Navy AM L, at around 1100 isk per round, hurts.
---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
|
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:09:00 -
[20]
It depends on how good you are. For better missionrunners it's quite worth it. As rough rule of thumb I would not use it if longest missions take more than 45 minutes with it.
|
|
BA Warrior
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:24:00 -
[21]
Remember you can buy CN Cruise with your LP, 4.2mil and 5k LP = 5000 CN cruise missiles or sumthing like that, ALOT cheaper than buying from sellers, 2 missions pays LP for this and considering the bountys you collect it pays for itself fast and you complete missions faster and the damage boost is nice
|
Gavin DeVries
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 13:56:00 -
[22]
Yes, but that only works if you're running for a Caldari corporation. Right now I can buy all the Amarr Navy S/M/L crystals I want, but they don't have any missiles there. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
stoicfaux
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 16:38:00 -
[23]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 22/05/2009 16:37:59
Originally by: Gavin DeVries Two nights ago I spent almost 280 million to buy 7x CN Cruise Missile Launchers. They worked out to about a 10% damage increase on my CNR with my usual anti-Sansha fitting. CN Paradise Cruise Missiles are a 15% damage increase over regular Paradise missiles. Even if they cost me 2000 per missile, I would have to buy 140,000 CN Paradise Cruise Missiles to equal that outlay. People will pay 80 million for a single faction damage mod that adds less than 15% to damage, so yes I think it's worth it.
What's the resale value of a faction mod? What's the resale value of a missile that's just been launched? What's the depreciation/amortization rate on a 80 million isk faction mod that will benefit an infinite number of missiles?
|
Gavin DeVries
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 17:14:00 -
[24]
For me, they have a resale value of zero, because I'm not expecting to ever sell them. Eventually I'll get the skills and move to a torp golem, but when I do I'm going to keep the CNR as a backup ship in case something goes horribly wrong. If I screw it up and get blown up, or get ganked while in the Golem, I'll have another ship I can use to earn money to replace the Golem.
I do understand what you're saying, but I'm estimating that I average firing off about 700 cruise missiles per mission when using T1 ammo. That's 200 missions to break even on the outlay if I'd spent that money on faction ammo. In reality it's a bit more, because the increased damage would mean I fire fewer missiles in a mission. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Sir Bum
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 17:34:00 -
[25]
Faction modules or deadspace/officer modules are always worth buying, as long as youre sure you wont get popped and as long as they increase stats. They'll increase your mission efficiency hence the isk you get per hour, and you can always resell the modules if you dont need them anymore, often even with profit!
I dont know about faction ammo except for crystals. Faction crystals give a big increase in dps and are definitely worth it for lvl 4 missions, especially if you use slow firing weapons like tachyons and beams (wich are usually best for missioning anyway).
|
Kassa Daito
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 18:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila Trying to figure out if spending extra money on faction ammo pays off with faster completion times enough to be worthwile as in more isk per hour.
For medium weapons, the answer is univerally "no". For large turrets, however, it's usually better to use faction if you have reasonable skills.
I can't give any good numbers for missiles since their DPS is quite a bit more variable but you can get a pretty good idea of profitability by bringing your ship to a complete and final stop, pull in all your drones, let 2 or 4 identical BSes at full health start orbiting you at the same range, count the number of regular volleys you fire at it, the same type of faction ammo, then count the number of volleys. Use the following formula for each:
([Bounty] - [volleys] * [guns] * [cost]) / [Time in seconds]
If faction is equal or higher then you should definately be using faction ammo for missions. If faction is slightly lower but still close then you're probably still better off with faction for BSes but you probably won't notice a difference. ***************
Disclaimer: The above comments are generally my own opinions and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Vyllana
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 20:22:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Vyllana on 22/05/2009 20:26:37 Faction ammo makes MORE of a difference when your skills are low. With low skills, your dps might only be exceeding the tank of a target by a small amount, and increasing that dps by 15% can multiply many fold the amount of damage that is actually getting through.
For example, your skills are terrible and your dps is 300. The target tanks 250 dps and has 10000 ehp. It takes you 10000/(300-250) = 200 seconds to kill it. Now upgrade to faction ammo and your dps is 345. You now take 10000/(345-250) = 105 seconds to kill it. You've nearly doubled your killing speed (against that target) despite increasing your dps by only 15%.
Now your skills are better, and your dps is 400 instead of 300, fighting the same target. It takes you 10000/(400-250) = 67 seconds to kill the target. Switch to faction ammo and your dps goes up to 460. Your time to kill is now 10000/(460-250) = 48 seconds. Your killing speed has only increased by about 40%, as opposed to almost doubling in the previous example.
Later on, you are flying an awesome faction fitted setup with all relevant skills at 5 and you do 1000 dps. It takes you 10000/(1000-250) = 13 seconds to kill the target. Upgrade to faction ammo and it takes you 10000/(1150-250) = 11 seconds. That means your killing speed has only improved by 18%. This last example is kind of hypothetical though, since by the time your dps is this high, what matters if whether the faction ammo saves you a volley or not. Nevertheless, it illustrates the point.
That being said, faction ammo is definitely worth using to speed up your mission running, especially if your skills are low.
|
Sir Bum
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 20:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vyllana Edited by: Vyllana on 22/05/2009 20:26:37 Faction ammo makes MORE of a difference when your skills are low.
The reasoning behind your idea is good, but the statement above isnt entirely right for Amarr. With higher skills, the amount of dps added by the faction ammo is bigger since its percentage based. And yes that little bit extra dps might be a big difference how fast you can beat a rats tank, but especially when using lasers, this occurs on any skill. For example i have high BS dps skills, but i still encounter Darkana's or those Angel rats in AE bonus who are a pain to beat with lasers. Using faction ammo or 1 extra heatsink is a huge difference how easy i can beat those missions.
|
Gavin DeVries
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 21:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sir Bum The reasoning behind your idea is good, but the statement above isnt entirely right for Amarr. With higher skills, the amount of dps added by the faction ammo is bigger since its percentage based. And yes that little bit extra dps might be a big difference how fast you can beat a rats tank, but especially when using lasers, this occurs on any skill. For example i have high BS dps skills, but i still encounter Darkana's or those Angel rats in AE bonus who are a pain to beat with lasers. Using faction ammo or 1 extra heatsink is a huge difference how easy i can beat those missions.
You're actually in the same situation with those NPCs as Vyllana's example of one with low skills. Anytime you aren't just blowing through the opponent's tank, the increased damage will make a much bigger difference in kill speed than it would when you're already obliterating them. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Kassa Daito
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 21:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vyllana Edited by: Vyllana on 22/05/2009 20:26:37 Faction ammo makes MORE of a difference when your skills are low. With low skills, your dps might only be exceeding the tank of a target by a small amount, and increasing that dps by 15% can multiply many fold the amount of damage that is actually getting through. ... That being said, faction ammo is definitely worth using to speed up your mission running, especially if your skills are low.
However, a significant sized batch of faction ammo isn't cheap and if you're barely scratching a tank, you probbaly have some 2 mil or less modules to add that will give you almost as much DPS and IMO they'll usually be a better investment in the long run than consumables.
As others have said, faction ammo essentially increases your DPS by a % while increasing the cost per shot/volley so it actually becomes less costly as you get more DPS multipliers. Though nothing increases your ISK/hr quite as much as that first 1 DPS above the rat's tank/s it's also the most expensive increase if you're using consumables to get it. ***************
Disclaimer: The above comments are generally my own opinions and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |