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Terra Mikael
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.05.25 08:52:00 -
[1]
All unguided missiles, From citadel torps downward, we see a general progression of faster expl. velocities. rockets are the only exception.
Example: Citadel---29 Torpedo--71 HAMS-----101 Rockets - 85
Since rockets are intended to take down frigate sized ships and smaller, this is certainly not what we would expect with such a weapon. Frigates are fast, yet It's explosion velocity is more comparable to torpedoes or guided heavy missiles.
Lets use guided missiles as a measure, as they are definitely working as intended. From cruise missiles downward, we see a logical progression.
Cruise - 69 heavy - 81 Light - 170
Velocity of rockets is clearly too low, and a good estimate of the range they should be at would be perhaps 175-190m/s. Tech II variants have similar problems.
I'm not proposing simply increasing velocity would fix them, but it would definitely go a long ways toward making them useful again. They may also need a slight bump in DPS given their short range to make them worthwhile - enough to make them comparable to the other unguided missiles (compared, of course, to their guided counterparts). ________________________________
Originally by: Lone Gunman Yes overpowered would be giving a ship with the Covert ops cloak the ability to fire say..Torpedos, now that would be overpowered. But CCP would |
Alxea
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Posted - 2009.05.25 09:44:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Terra Mikael All unguided missiles, From citadel torps downward, we see a general progression of faster expl. velocities. rockets are the only exception.
Example: Citadel---29 Torpedo--71 HAMS-----101 Rockets - 85
Since rockets are intended to take down frigate sized ships and smaller, this is certainly not what we would expect with such a weapon. Frigates are fast, yet It's explosion velocity is more comparable to torpedoes or guided heavy missiles.
Lets use guided missiles as a measure, as they are definitely working as intended. From cruise missiles downward, we see a logical progression.
Cruise - 69 heavy - 81 Light - 170
Velocity of rockets is clearly too low, and a good estimate of the range they should be at would be perhaps 175-190m/s. Tech II variants have similar problems.
I'm not proposing simply increasing velocity would fix them, but it would definitely go a long ways toward making them useful again. They may also need a slight bump in DPS given their short range to make them worthwhile - enough to make them comparable to the other unguided missiles (compared, of course, to their guided counterparts).
This is true. I agree.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.25 09:47:00 -
[3]
Even with the correct explosion velocity, the raw dps of rockets and light missiles is just laughable. The solution: double rocket damage, possibly even triple it. -----------
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:03:00 -
[4]
Cut fitting requirements Boost base damage Decrease DRF Increase explosion velocity/decrease explosion radius
I.e., everything. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.05.25 14:49:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 25/05/2009 14:54:53 I'm a bit tired of guys whining 'bout rocket explosion speed. Do you know missile damage reduction formula? Even if GMP bonus doesn't apply to them - they still hit better than light missiles (in terms of raw damage reduction factor). Also, never take a look at weapon system w/o taking into account primary weapon platforms (ship with boni) and misc ship platforms (ships w/o rocket boni, but which may find use of this weapon system - like punisher + projectiles).
Problem itself is in flight range (they're not usable on malediction at all, unless you're hitting fat target or managed to catch your target into scram) and poor DPS.
Every now and then i see maledictions/vengeances with projectiles despite them having boni to rocket damage, what describes situation better than any words.
And it's ccp's decision how to revamp them; from my perspective, rockets are one of few (if not single) weapon systems that definitely need some boost. |
Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.25 14:52:00 -
[6]
Simply change their explosion velociy to about 150ms and give them a 50% dps increase... THAT is what is needed. |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.25 16:21:00 -
[7]
Rockets' REAL explosion velocity is 170m/s if you base it off the standard 40m signature radius. Thing is, a frigate can be webbed and asleep at the controls and still exceed that. The low velocity means ceptors and some T1 frigs can outrun and outmaneuver them. And with the current damage reduction cliff, they're nearly useless against fast ships. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.05.25 20:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Allen Ramses Edited by: Allen Ramses on 25/05/2009 16:30:48 EDIT: This fixes rockets to act as they should.
According to your proposal, rockets will have 5-7 km range, lol.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.25 21:09:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess According to your proposal, rockets will have 5-7 km range, lol.
A short ranged weapon is short ranged, lol.
-1/10
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Karl Luckner
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Posted - 2009.05.25 21:13:00 -
[10]
Even with the explosion velocity fixed, there would be tons of issues remaining. In a fight between fast moving frigates, they have a hard time reaching it's target. And reloads, and... |
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.25 21:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Karl Luckner Even with the explosion velocity fixed, there would be tons of issues remaining. In a fight between fast moving frigates, they have a hard time reaching it's target. And reloads, and...
...Damage output.
All of which are addressed by my proposal |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.05.25 23:31:00 -
[12]
Did you ever fly a rocket ship? I don't see how your proposal will help vs fast-moving targets. 5-6 km of range even with greater speed and/or damage will make them less usable vs fast ships, compared to current situation on TQ. What's the purpose of increased damage output if you can't deliver it?
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.25 23:46:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Did you ever fly a rocket ship? I don't see how your proposal will help vs fast-moving targets. 5-6 km of range even with greater speed and/or damage will make them less usable vs fast ships, compared to current situation on TQ. What's the purpose of increased damage output if you can't deliver it?
Did you not notice the "Double velocity" part of my proposal? The only thing that was nerfed was flight time and (slightly) missile velocity skill bonuses. It's 4.5-7.75 instead of 4.5-10.1, which is WAY too long for a short range weapon. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.05.26 00:03:00 -
[14]
Make rockets mini-torpedoes and not an autocannon shooting projectiles.
Decrease RoF by 25% Increase damage by 100%
Or somethin'. Can't be arsed for math atm.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 00:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 26/05/2009 00:11:06
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess According to your proposal, rockets will have 5-7 km range, lol.
A short ranged weapon is short ranged, lol.
-1/10
So... 5-7km range (prolly less when we include all missile problems like starting velocity etc). So you are creating weapon which has blaster/ac range and has inferior DPS to blasters/ACs (hell, even to gatling pulses). Also weapon which still suffers from "missile damage formula" in its optimal range. With 40 explo radius you are going to deal around 60% of DPS on ceptor. So... where is that missile "fix"?
Also "short range weapon does 33% more damage than long range". So whats the point of using torps over cruises (especially with their harsh fittings?) or rockets vs standards (when you need to enter web range to deal lol-not much more dps)?
Another issue: whats the point of using rage missiles in your calculations? We going back to faction ammo days?
So yeah, your fix is not some second coming of Christ. It actually sucks even more than CCPs version.
Quote: Did you not notice the "Double velocity" part of my proposal? The only thing that was nerfed was flight time and (slightly) missile velocity skill bonuses. It's 4.5-7.75 instead of 4.5-10.1, which is WAY too long for a short range weapon.
You still dont understand how this game works i guess. Too low flight time means that rockets will not hit target at all because will go to 1st point at which they start following target and vanish. And your damage boost proposal is around 10%. Thats pathetic when you look at nerf (both explo radious and flight range) you are proposing.
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ArcticPrism
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Posted - 2009.05.26 00:17:00 -
[16]
Did you not notice the "Double velocity" part of my proposal? The only thing that was nerfed was flight time and (slightly) missile velocity skill bonuses. It's 4.5-7.75 instead of 4.5-10.1, which is WAY too long for a short range weapon.
Small autocannons can get about 8km falloff with barrage S, which comes out to 16km range(although you wont hit well). Lasers can use Scorch or Radio S and get 10km optimal(plus whatever their falloff is) Even Blasters can get 7.5km range with null, like autocannons they won't hit well. But the difference with rockets, is they have to travel to their opponent. What if my Jaguar orbits your... Hawk at 10-15km with barrage, how will you ever hit me with your rockets? You could use javelin, but those have even less dps than t1 rockets.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.26 01:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Garbage
Are you serious? Please, for the love of god, tell me you're trolling.
Originally by: ArcticPrism Small autocannons can get about 8km falloff with barrage S, which comes out to 16km range(although you wont hit well). Lasers can use Scorch or Radio S and get 10km optimal(plus whatever their falloff is) Even Blasters can get 7.5km range with null, like autocannons they won't hit well. But the difference with rockets, is they have to travel to their opponent. What if my Jaguar orbits your... Hawk at 10-15km with barrage, how will you ever hit me with your rockets? You could use javelin, but those have even less dps than t1 rockets.
If you like doing less than 25% DPS with your jag, that's fine by me. However, you might not like that I can do full damage at out to 11km with my hawk. Or 85% damage out to 16.5k with Javelins.
And don't dare compare rockets or barrage with Scorch. That's not a decent enough comparison for obvious reasons. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 01:13:00 -
[18]
So my guess was correct, you have no clue how rockets works or how game works. Next time hop on sisi/tq, equip rockets and you might understand what im talking about.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.26 01:22:00 -
[19]
I know EXACTLY how rockets work, and I know EXACTLY what's wrong with them. I've been specialized in missiles for 3 years; don't second guess my infallible and omniscient logic, sir. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 01:33:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 26/05/2009 01:33:26 You have been specialised for 3 years and yet:
- you fail to grasp that rocket range is reduced by about 15% when fired - THUS: your rockets effective range will end up being about 6km (thats inside null blaster range)
- you dont understand that game works in "1 second ticks" (or if you prefer: data updates seem to be in 1 second periods) - THUS: any missile flight times less than 1 seconds wont deal any damage most of the time. Any missile with flight time between 1 and 2 seconds will vanish after 1 second.
- you fail to see that missile launched from ship flies 1 second of flight time before it actually starts following target - THUS: very short flight times on rockets will end up with rockets not catching target
ALL OF THIS can be easily checked on TQ if you actually bother to board a ship armed with rocket launcher and fire on different targets. Firing on ceptors is especially advised - you will se many weird things happening with missiles. its exactly same as rage rockets NOT hitting cargo containers before. you can theorycraft as much as you want and without testing it in game you wouldnt even know it happens.
Lets come back to "theorycraft" stats now: - DPS wise your rockets are around 10% better than current ones. Result? 200mm AC is still both easier to fit and still deals more DPS. AND when uses barrage can still outrange rockets. Actually using t1 ammo it will outrange rockets and outDPS it at same time. - range issue was covered above. But there is additional problem with it: you enter blaster range with weapon that doesnt even compare to blasters. With your rockets blaster diction will eat rocket diction every time. Whats worth adding with your ranges rockets become totally useless in ceptor duels. Webbed ceptor will run around 2km/s. that means your range is already reduced by 2km as soon as rocket is launched (speed difference). - explosion radius: slow ceptors (webbed/keeping range) will get reduced damage compared to what is currently on tq.
To sum up: if it was "that easy" to fix i guess CCP would have done it aeons ago. But as it looks like they want weapons to be a little bit more diverse rather than short range x dps, long range +range -dps across the line.
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.26 01:49:00 -
[21]
My option is not a single sweeping change like "double explosion velocity". I'd rather a bunch of small tweaks on several different areas. Slightly boost EV a bit, another small change to ER a bit, and another tweak to base damage.
I like the base characteristics of rockets, and some of the proposed changes here takes a sledgehammer to those. I dunno, the idea to me seems to make them useful again, not change what they are. And small changes here and there make more sense to me on something like that than one large huge sweeping change. Remember.. one large huge sweeping change is what got us to this position in the first place.
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ArcticPrism
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Posted - 2009.05.26 02:28:00 -
[22]
Edited by: ArcticPrism on 26/05/2009 02:29:21
If you like doing less than 25% DPS with your jag, that's fine by me. However, you might not like that I can do full damage at out to 11km with my hawk. Or 85% damage out to 16.5k with Javelins.
And don't dare compare rockets or barrage with Scorch. That's not a decent enough comparison for obvious reasons.
lol, Aye. I wouldn't fight at such a falloff unless i had to.
And yes @ scorch comment.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.26 02:59:00 -
[23]
I agree, we should
- increase dps - reduce fittings - boost range - tweak exp vel - change effects - overhaul bonuses - add skills - respec ships - add new ships - focus on expansions - expand into new territory - conquer said territory - build a Maginot line - host the next Olympics - fit rockets to our javelins - win Gold in Javelin throw - rejoice at our newly rebalanced Javelins - spear the unbelievers to death - because rockets suck - or maybe they're fine - I dunno. w/e
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.26 04:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist I agree, we should
- increase dps - reduce fittings - boost range - tweak exp vel - change effects - overhaul bonuses - add skills - respec ships - add new ships - focus on expansions - expand into new territory - conquer said territory - build a Maginot line - host the next Olympics - fit rockets to our javelins - win Gold in Javelin throw - rejoice at our newly rebalanced Javelins - spear the unbelievers to death - because rockets suck - or maybe they're fine - I dunno. w/e
that made be giggle like an eight year old little girl
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.05.26 10:22:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 26/05/2009 10:24:56
Originally by: Allen Ramses I know EXACTLY how rockets work, and I know EXACTLY what's wrong with them. I've been specialized in missiles for 3 years; don't second guess my infallible and omniscient logic, sir.
I don't see any experience in flying rocket vessel. Am i wrong?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=161891&view=ships_weapons
Originally by: Deva Blackfire You still dont understand how this game works i guess. Too low flight time means that rockets will not hit target at all because will go to 1st point at which they start following target and vanish. And your damage boost proposal is around 10%. Thats pathetic when you look at nerf (both explo radious and flight range) you are proposing.
QFT
Allen, using missiles in general and using short-ranged missiles vs fast targets is completely different matters. Get your ass into malediction/vengeance w/o scrambler (our targets have to be fast, eh?) and tell us about the current hit/shot ratio. 2%? 3%? And you're going to make it much worse (see quote above).
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.26 10:41:00 -
[26]
In general, close-range missiles will do full damage to a same-size target that's webbed and not ABing. This works fine for HAMs and torps (although torps are semi-oversized and require a painter on many BS, but they required this before QR anyway) because webs are available and AB on anything bigger than a frigate is a lolfit.
But it breaks down on the frigate level, where ABs are commonplace (if not strictly ideal), where rocket platforms frequently don't have the slots or fittings to fit a web and where soloing is more viable and more common. Add in excessive fitting requirements and low base damage and you have a gimped weapon system.
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Cpt Tofutiger
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Posted - 2009.05.26 11:09:00 -
[27]
Im slightly borred and i never thought eve weps where particularly well thought through and i could probably design a completly diffrent game with all the changes id like to see but anways ...
small weapons 1) guided vs unguided thers no bloddy diffrence they just forget to take into account some skills so lets divide them into
Shortrange / high damage and Longrange / low damage velocity before skills, explosion velocity..ask me if i run some numbers, range after max skills! (this is t1)
type rof vel expvel exprad range | type rof vel expvel exprad range Rockets 2 8k allot 50m 10km | SMissile 8 8k less 40m 40km HAM 5 6k high 200m 20km | HMissile 14 6k lesser 120m 120km Torp 12 4k high 550m 35km | Cruise 14 6k notmuch 350m 250km
wich most likely would screw up all damage calcs of eve but ah well while we are at it
autocannon small rof 0.5 clipsize 1000 medium rof 1 clipsize 500 large rof 2 clipsize 200 Blasters small rof 4 100 med rof 6 80 large rof 8 60 pulse lasers .... make it pulsing not strobing kthxbai infact id like them to behave in a countinous pulsing fasshion slowly draining their own cap (not the ships cap) and while we are at it can we have an ammo bay and can missiles be a true secondary weapon with a specific use ? and could we get drones that actualy work and and and and
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Great Artista
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:17:00 -
[28]
Good suggestions there peeps! ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told.
◕◡◕
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:47:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 26/05/2009 16:48:40 Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 26/05/2009 16:48:31
Originally by: Terra Mikael All unguided missiles, From citadel torps downward, we see a general progression of faster expl. velocities. rockets are the only exception.
Example: Citadel---29 Torpedo--71 HAMS-----101 Rockets - 85
Since rockets are intended to take down frigate sized ships and smaller, this is certainly not what we would expect with such a weapon. Frigates are fast, yet It's explosion velocity is more comparable to torpedoes or guided heavy missiles.
Lets use guided missiles as a measure, as they are definitely working as intended. From cruise missiles downward, we see a logical progression.
Cruise - 69 heavy - 81 Light - 170
Velocity of rockets is clearly too low, and a good estimate of the range they should be at would be perhaps 175-190m/s. Tech II variants have similar problems.
I'm not proposing simply increasing velocity would fix them, but it would definitely go a long ways toward making them useful again. They may also need a slight bump in DPS given their short range to make them worthwhile - enough to make them comparable to the other unguided missiles (compared, of course, to their guided counterparts).
The problem with your initial assumption is that of fittings. Ignore the missiles for a moment and look at the launchers. All unguided missile launchers (where applicable as there are no capital cruise launchers) require more powergrid than their guided missile launcher counterparts, with the exception of Rocket Launchers. Not only do Rocket Launchers not require more powergrid than Standard Launchers, they require half or less powergrid than Standard Launchers.
If you want to bring Rockets in-line with other unguided missiles in terms of damage, range, and/or explosion properties, you had better make sure that you more-than-double the amount of powergrid that Rocket Launchers require, not to mention re-balance the fittings on pretty much any frigate/destroyer hull with a launcher hardpoint. If CCP just up and boosted Rockets to follow the progression of other unguided missiles while keeping Rocket Launcher fittings the same you'd have a pretty overpowered weapon system, which is why CCP hasn't done it yet.
EDIT: tl;dr version, Rockets and Rocket Launchers need a rebalance but they are not in need of a flat-out boost because they are so frickin' easy to fit. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.26 18:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess I don't see any experience in flying rocket vessel. Am i wrong?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=161891&view=ships_weapons
Yep. Killboards don't reflect half of what I do. Probably because I have alts, corp drills, sisi tests, etc.
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
Originally by: Deva Blackfire You still dont understand how this game works i guess. Too low flight time means that rockets will not hit target at all because will go to 1st point at which they start following target and vanish. And your damage boost proposal is around 10%. Thats pathetic when you look at nerf (both explo radious and flight range) you are proposing.
QFT
Allen, using missiles in general and using short-ranged missiles vs fast targets is completely different matters. Get your ass into malediction/vengeance w/o scrambler (our targets have to be fast, eh?) and tell us about the current hit/shot ratio. 2%? 3%? And you're going to make it much worse (see quote above).
I know why rockets don't reach their targets, but short flight time is not it. The current delta between missile velocity and ship velocity is far too low. Doubling the missile velocity will increase the delta 10 fold. Tripling it will make the issue non-existent, but will cause path prediction issues. Either way, a doubled velocity would greatly improve the effectiveness of rockets. It's not a nerf, it's a boost.
As for the DPS issue, yes rockets and light missiles have the lowest DPS, but it's one of the drawbacks of not being able to choose your optimal range based on ammo strength. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
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