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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
AncientLord
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Posted - 2009.06.01 07:11:00 -
[61]
Amitious Turkey:
Well mechanics are setup to those that shoot 1st. or healers that owerheal and take agrro. So unluckly there is no other options, players will have to adopt
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Thaer Deathor
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Posted - 2009.06.01 07:50:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Blane Xero Low level sleeper AI + A bounty boost by 5x and reducing missions to a few key NPC's, giving the actual AGENT REWARD a bit of a boost too.
Fix the AI so that drones are no longer instantly primary, (Though using RR's in highs should help)
LOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOL
are you kidding me?, nerf level four missions!.....put in low level sleeper ai and leave the money as it is.
RISK/REWARD my friend
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Mes Ren
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.06.01 16:50:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Arushia
There is a difference between need to manage drones carefully and light drones being alpha'd to death immediately on launch.
EvE is still a game, and drones vs. sleepers in not fun. I'm not saying better AI is a bad thing, but I think its drone handling could use some tweaks before it's applied to other PvE content.
All I got from this is that you have NEVER run a sleeper site in your life. I run against sleepers all the time both solo and in gangs up through class 5's, and I don't ever have a problem with lights being alpha'd. Do I lose drones? Yes, but more often than not, it was because I wasn't paying close attention to them. ________________________
No Trademark -- Mes Ren, Mes Builder -- -- CEO --
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Mes Ren
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.06.01 17:07:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Sleepers were created to dynamically react and attack targets they consider as threat and that includes drones if you rely on them as your primary source of damage. We wanted to provide PvE content for Apocrypha that actually offered challenge to our player base, so yes, current Sleeper behavior remains definately intended.
So you are saying that you don't want the dominix to be able to effectively run W-Space sites? I just spent an hour trying to kill sleepers with my domi using a neut and RR to hold aggro. As others have said, light drones were virtually instapopped and even mediums and heavies quickly died. I find it frustrating that while a drake can happily solo class 1, class 2, and sometimes even class 3 wormholes, a domi struggles with a class 1 or 2 wormhole. It can tank fine, but after only a few minutes it loses most of its damage. In the end I resorted to using sentries to kill the cruisers, but this takes about 5 minutes per cruiser and I have to scoop+rep my drones several times during the battle. In the mean time a missile user has happily killed 5 cruisers. Combine that with the neuting ability of the sleepers, and gallente drone ships are totally nerfed for all sleeper combat.
Most of the people who run w-space with me use shield tanked domi's ... in fact, we run class 5's with just 2 of us dual boxing a baslisk each. He runs a domi, and I run a nightmare. Try fitting rails and t2 sentries.
For solo work, try an active shield tank with rails fit. Shoot at cruisers with the rails while having lights go after frigs. Keep an eye on lights and pull back any one that starts tanking damage. Once you've killed the frigs, use sentries or mediums for additional dps on the crusiers. T2 sentries have no issues with hitting cruisers for full dps. Incidently, I strongly recommend springing for at least a caldari navy x-large shield booster.
In talking about solo w-space work, that same buddy runs an ishtar for solo work (armor tanked of course). ________________________
No Trademark -- Mes Ren, Mes Builder -- -- CEO --
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Amitious Turkey
Gallente Ammo Tech Inc
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Posted - 2009.06.01 18:26:00 -
[65]
Originally by: AncientLord Amitious Turkey:
Well mechanics are setup to those that shoot 1st. or healers that owerheal and take agrro. So unluckly there is no other options, players will have to adopt
For now, maybe. I was just wondering if the mechanics could be tweaked a little *shrugs*. My sig was fail, but now it isn't.
Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3
GO NAVIGATOR <3 |
Manfred Rickenbocker
Professors On Steriods DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2009.06.01 19:13:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 01/06/2009 19:13:48 Problem: Losing a drone is ON PAR with having one of your guns/launchers destroyed and nothing to show for it. They cost about the same in ISK and it has an equivalent effect in battle. Simple, whether it be for PVP or PVE.
Solution 1: Increase drone bay size. Ever since they introduced bandwidth (which I have no problem with) they needed to remedy the fact that most ships didnt get the needed increases to their bays. Sure you have powerhouses like the Domi with 375, but even it could use a few more flights of light drones to compensate for losses. Boost it to 400 and other ships get other compensatory increases. Also, for the record, ships with per level increase to drone bay is flawed and useless. They would be far better off with an HP bonus and a static increase to their bay (no damage bonus because that has been declared overpowered on some ships).
Solution 2: Reload the drone bay in space If drones cannot be treated like modules, they should be treated like ammunition. Ships should maintain their current drone bay sizes (maybe knock down some a little to around double their bandwidth) but instead introduce a method for reloading drones to the drone bay. Simply click and drag a drone from the cargo hold into the drone bay to refill (provided there is empty space and no launched drone needing that space). To balance this, there is a timer imposed on loading the drone, say 10 seconds (less? skilled?) per 5m3 of drone that is being loaded. (Heavies would then take 50 sec. to load) ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.01 19:39:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Myra2007 Yeah, sentries is the way to go for the most part. I didn't imply anything else so again i don't understand your point.
Originally by: Myra2007 Sentries aren't supposed to hit frigates. I know how to pilot a drone ship and i am familiar with different drone types and their usage. Again i don't see your point.
Originally by: Karentaki
Contradiction much?
No. What about "for the most part" do you not understand?
Originally by: Karentaki
As I have said, if you are on your own in a drone ship, then your light and me drones will be attacked in a few seconds after launch. Sentries can't hit frigs. How do you propose kiling frigs other than spending 10 minutes scooping drones every 10 seconds, losing a drone for every frigate, and generally getting annoyed?
The same way i do it. Kill cruisers and bs first as much as possible without spawning the next wave. Then use your light drones (or meds depending on circumstances) to kill off the frigs and kill the last cruiser/bs - rinse and repeat. If i can do it with a flight of unbonused lights why can't you?
Originally by: Myra2007 Put that same scenario in a class 3+ and nighthawk looks like crap. (You won't solo those plexes so thats were rr comes into play.) You know which ship is awesome under those circumstances? Yup, the domi. As i said ships have advantages and disadvantages.
Originally by: Karentaki
So would you support say.. having caldari able to run L1 and L2 missions, while gallente can run L3 and L4? No? Then I don't see why it should be like that for wormholes.
You can complete class1/2 just fine in a domi. I know because i have done so. I already admitted that its a bit annoying - but thats about it.
As for the advantages a domi in class4+ (read the post by the no trademark guy) - are you supposing a nerf to the domi or a boost to the other ships to make up for their "problems"? No? Then don't complain. --
Originally by: Jasper Dark
I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
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Terrakas
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Posted - 2009.06.01 22:51:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Terrakas on 01/06/2009 22:52:42 Edited by: Terrakas on 01/06/2009 22:51:41 I think the issues with drones in Sleeper AI is twofold:
1) sleepers of all sizes (including battleships??!) seem to have the inexplicable ability to insta-lock drones, even light drones. This proves rather disastrous since light drones instapop rather easily. 2) sleepers seem attracted to the main source of damage in the absence of ewar (I guess intelligence is nice), but unlike players, fail to consider that if they pop the drone carrier ship, all the drones will deactivate. thus, they'll always go after the drones instead of the drone boat.
I think that if both these issues are addressed, bringing Sleeper AI to regular rats will be less of an issue for drone boats.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.06 14:07:00 -
[69]
Bumping this because I have yet to see a good argument as to why drones should be the only weapon system that is totally ineffective (on its own) against sleepers. |
Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.06.06 14:46:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2009 14:49:55 I feel your pain I have a crap ton in drones becouse I started Gallente and that was the thing to do to get mission based damg.
I am training Amarr ships right now I have Amarr BS to level 3 and Large lazers and learning how my new Apoc works :) as I now poor all my sp into Gunnery and a new class of ships. I already have armor tanking skills or I would have gone Caldrie Raven but I realy dont like missils myself. Amarr just seamed like the best place to move to better guns then hybrids and I already have Armor tanking skills.
Edit: I have no faith in CCP making drones a stand alone weapon system again. Just take a look see at small/med smart bombs they have no problem with worthless weapon systems in game. And all they would have to do to make them worth using is not inc. there damg just there range. If they are not willing to even do that then why would they fix drones when they went out of there way to nerf them.
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Anri
O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.06 17:02:00 -
[71]
Ok first off I haven't done any WH space at all so this is just some ideas that popped into my head while reading this.
Has anyone done an analysis on why drones get targeted by sleepers? If it is entirely based on dps like how aggro is done in many other MMO's then all you would have to do is make sure that your ship has enough guns to outpace the dps of a single drone as long as each drone is considered a "ship" for aggro purposes.
A simple way to test this is fit a domi with at lease 3 rails and make sure to start firing them first before have the drones engage the same target and see if they get targeted. A single orge II does 95dps according to eft and 3 dual 250 rails do 120dps.
If this is the case then all you have to do is manage aggro based on dps and you should have no problems.
Of course if the drones are lumped together as one "entity" for aggro purposes it would be hard to outpace their damage.
Just a thought. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Quantum Star Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.06 18:38:00 -
[72]
To answer the last poster the Sleeper AI does not appear to consider the amount of dps being done by drones. My Hurricane has 5 light drones and 6 T2 autocannons. The guns easily put out over twice the dps of the drones. But the Sleepers still target the drones as soon as I launch them. Sometimes it appears as if the Sleepers actually start shooting the drones before the drones have even reached the Sleepers.
I did want to use a Myrm for solo wspace work, but after much testing I concluded that it was really just unfeasible hence the use of the Hurricane.
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Jita Johnny
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Posted - 2009.06.06 22:46:00 -
[73]
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Sleepers were created to dynamically react and attack targets they consider as threat and that includes drones if you rely on them as your primary source of damage. We wanted to provide PvE content for Apocrypha that actually offered challenge to our player base, so yes, current Sleeper behavior remains definately intended.
How the hell can you think having half a dozen ships shooting you instantly switching to the light drones you release from your battleship is anything like real PvP player behavior?
How many EVE players flying tacklers would drop tackle to blow up that warrior I the BS they've got scrambled just released?
All that the Sleeper anti-drone AI does is make it difficult or impossible for drone boats. It give a bonus to everybody else because, as mentioned, the Sleeper AI is stupid enough to shift e-war and massive DPS over to drones. |
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Rough Necks
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Posted - 2009.06.07 02:02:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jita Johnny
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Sleepers were created to dynamically react and attack targets they consider as threat and that includes drones if you rely on them as your primary source of damage. We wanted to provide PvE content for Apocrypha that actually offered challenge to our player base, so yes, current Sleeper behavior remains definately intended.
How the hell can you think having half a dozen ships shooting you instantly switching to the light drones you release from your battleship is anything like real PvP player behavior?
Looks like you did not read what you quoted? And be happy they did not make sleeper combat like real PvP combat, because otherwise you'd not just lose drones but rather your ship for trying to solo half a dozen opponents.
This whole thread is somewhat amusing. Drones are fine. Yes, they are more difficult in w-space, but so is everything else, and that's a good thing. If you insist on playing EVE as a solo game or AFK then simply accept that not all content is for you.
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Quantum Star Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.07 03:02:00 -
[75]
Catari you appear to have missed the inconsistancy pointed out by the previous poster.
Ytterbium says that Sleepers primary drones when drones are the primary source of your damage. Jita Jonny is pointing out (as have many others) that this is clearly not what is happening, since drones are being primaried in all cases even when their damage is only a fraction of the damage being dealt.
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Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.06.07 05:16:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Catari you appear to have missed the inconsistancy pointed out by the previous poster.
Ytterbium says that Sleepers primary drones when drones are the primary source of your damage. Jita Jonny is pointing out (as have many others) that this is clearly not what is happening, since drones are being primaried in all cases even when their damage is only a fraction of the damage being dealt.
I have had Sleepers primary light drones immediately upon launch from a Sacrilege. They were certainly not the ship's primary damage source, but Sleepers targeted and killed them anyway. |
mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim
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Posted - 2009.06.07 09:27:00 -
[77]
I've very limited experience fighting sleepers, but I did use drone boats during those engagements and found the sleepers to be pretty nasty to us drone users
Couple of us think it was 4 RR Domi's against 2 of those extra tough sleeper BS, and 2 of the frigates. I think I was the only one that lost a drone in that fight.. Was a bit hectic.. wasn't paying attention.
And the last day took a nano shield buffer Ishtar into a class 3 wormhole, and into a frontier something anomaly, managed to take the first 2 waves without losing any drones.. Managed to just get out in half armor on the 3rd wave -----------
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velocity7
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Posted - 2009.07.28 07:06:00 -
[78]
Just thought I should note my experience with sleepers... Sleepers re-target every few minutes or so, and consider drones as the primary threat, regardless of whether they are the primary source of damage. I've seen this happen not just with sleeper frigates, but also sleeper cruisers as well.
Again, just noting my experience.
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.07.28 15:48:00 -
[79]
Sleeper ai isn't as complicated as ccp would like you to believe unfortunately/ They follow reasonably strict targeting patterns regardless of what you do e.g fit 1 ecm on a tank scorp and they'll all hit it rather than the damage dealer. More prominently with drones, the frigs primary them because they're the same size. What this means, is you can go into wh alone, do a site and not worry about being caught, if someone warp in you pop a set of light drones, the frigs scram them and you leave.
If this is carried over to missions in it's current state it simply nullifies drones and adding afew exceptions won't fix the issue, it need another full layer of targeting commands. As it is, if this went in it would only increase the perseverance of the raven by reducing the reason to choose aother ships.
Is that what eve really needs? ***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.07.29 11:46:00 -
[80]
I would quit eve for good if mission NPC had full sleeper AI, meaning you had to cycle drones and all that nonsense. Not even a second thought needed there and no debate. It would be yet another swipe at drone pilots.
HOWEVER... applying sleeper AI to general rats does not have to mean death to drones. I'd happily see them generally smarter and more adaptive.
CAS 101 Eve Musings Lost in Space: Apocrypha Exploration |
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Corvin Demeter
Caldari Legio XII Fulminata
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Posted - 2009.07.29 14:44:00 -
[81]
L4 missions: If ccp fix the NPC...
1. Torp range 2. Nossing at pre-nerf levels (and no indicator in overview) 3. NPC's that MWD in deadspace 4. Crazy ecm jam strength 5. Infinite cap. 6. DEFENDER bloody missiles...
Then, I might be willing to entertain fewer, more 'intelligent', NPC's.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.07.29 23:03:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 29/07/2009 23:03:52 I think it's a mixture of an issue here, as an avid drone user I always fly my Ishtar to wormhole space. I don't find it too bad keeping my little pets alive, repping them usually. However, I also work in groups of at least five people and up, lessening the chance of having my beauties as targets. I think the main issue is that Sleepers are far too fast to pick out drones and drones of course, are extremely fragile.
Using only sentries is NOT an option, not every ship can use them (and I regularly use a Myrm, Ishkur or a Vexor too!) and even then Sentries are sitting still, and they take maximum damage per hit back and the Sleepers instant pop them. I'd advise people arguing against this to actually try using only drones in a wormhole and see how it works. It gets ugly, fast.
The new drones with the double hit points could definitely work, however at the 10/15% DPS loss it may not work, as it simply may take too long to kill them to bother using them in the first place.
TL;DR: Yes, using drones can be done, I do it regularly and have had very few problems, but drones need to be monitored constantly, and you have to hug them point-blank often endangering your ship far more than any other weapon user just to do so, only to achieve similar, if not lower results. I believe Sleepers need to see Drones as slightly less of a threat, but not removing them altogether, otherwise it will eliminate drone users as an option to run missions, which is frankly, ******ed. Altering this would allow drones to still be used, whilst not making them overpowered or an AFK choice.
Edit: Rats I wouldn't mind seeing this chance though for Sleeper AI, but mission AI would be a problem.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.01 13:23:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Mes Ren
Originally by: Arushia
There is a difference between need to manage drones carefully and light drones being alpha'd to death immediately on launch.
EvE is still a game, and drones vs. sleepers in not fun. I'm not saying better AI is a bad thing, but I think its drone handling could use some tweaks before it's applied to other PvE content.
All I got from this is that you have NEVER run a sleeper site in your life. I run against sleepers all the time both solo and in gangs up through class 5's, and I don't ever have a problem with lights being alpha'd. Do I lose drones? Yes, but more often than not, it was because I wasn't paying close attention to them.
Please, enlighten us. Post a fitting for a gallente drone ship that allows you to kill sleepers as fast as almost any other PvE ship. I REALLY want to hear how you can avoid having your drones popped in under 10 seconds.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.01 16:46:00 -
[84]
I love the idea of mission NPCs fighting more like players but they should have the same weaknesses.
Usually, drones are not on the overview because they are too much clutter and due to their size, guns are better spent on the ship that controls them. Also, I have never once heard of anything smaller than a fighter being called primary by a fleet.
Could drone aggro be more gradual with perhaps only the ship they are hammering on targeting them at first? A little yellow or red number beside each drone telling us how much aggro they have would help too. If you really want to make drone users pay more attention, how about a link between drones and their ship that greatly extends the reach of RR modules?
Its been a year since I ran missions, but I loved the Domi for its low ammo use and it was just different from using a gunboat. Drones are a different form of weapon in Eve that I think adds more flavor to the game, that CCP seems bent on removing them disappoints me.
Also, Id love to hear from all you "Learn to play" and "Adapt or die" trolls how drones take less skill than a Raven or other ranged BS. Using drones in a mission already required you to pay attention to them and choosing targets for your drones and guns at the same time took finesse. I don't recall ever AFKing a mission
Colonies and Capitals |
Uzume Ame
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Posted - 2009.08.03 11:48:00 -
[85]
the problem with sleeper 'ai' is they allways focus fire on one target, including drones. it's pretty difficult for a player gang to focus fire on a single drone, this shouldn't be as easy for sleepers.
random shooting of different at once drones is fine, that would force you to scoop and redeploy, but alphaing drones is not nice at all.
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:07:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Karentaki I REALLY want to hear how you can avoid having your drones popped in under 10 seconds.
I haven't run a WH site solo in a gallente ship, but we certain bring Domies and Myrmadons along.
Take out the Sleeper frigates using an assault frigate or HAC with fast tracking.
Once the frigates are gone, deploy light and/or medium drones against the battleships. They're too fast for the large guns to track.
It's not that drones are unusable, rather that the tactics require a large rethink.
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Fearless M0F0
Coalition Of Nations.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:01:00 -
[87]
As a drone specialized gallente pilot I read all the horror stories about sleepers hate to the little ones. Still, I joined my corp into a wormhole in my trusty domi with a full set of all size t2 drones.
It couldn't be that bad I thought and it is actually so bad you just have to lol at the monster nerf the devs did over this one.
My first sleeper plex I was watching my Warden II closely expecting them to take some damage while slowly chewing on 2 Sleeper Keepers sitting around 110Km away. Gang mates talking and switching RR to the ship taking damage.
I checked my Wardens, no damage... I checked them 10 seconds later... 2 of them missing
For all these of you here talking "drone management" you have no idea, there is no drone management when your damn drones get one-shot... from 100km away... by a couple of battleships
After losing some more drones that weekend I suicided my insured domi, got me a Megathron, rails, Caldari Antimatter L, a bunch of small ECM drones and the skillbook set to fly raven
I have yet to find any BS fit that can one-shot Warden II from 100Km+ away and sleeper dev blog claims they are "somewhere in the league of a well fit BS flown by an experienced pilot"
Can you guys at least put "some" of that AI to drones, like if they get jammed/webbed they move out of range and stuff? How about making sentries auto-return to bay if they get targetted?
DEVS: Before replying any further please fit a Domi and go in gang to do a class 5 sleeper mag plex to really see what is going on. This may be a bug in sleepers AI.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.04 11:53:00 -
[88]
From a old Dev comment about Sleepers targeting, the drone problem is probably originated by the ship resistances e durability.
When a Sleeper can't break a target tank after a few cycles of fire it start looking for softer targets, even if the hard target is doing a lot of DPS.
When a new unit appear the sleeper classify it as a target of unknown hardness and if its routine say "the current target is too hard try a different target" it will switch to the new, unknown hardness targets and not to already tested and too hard targets.
As the drone is easily damaged and eliminated it is classed as a soft target.
So if you recover and re-launch the drones they are already classed as "soft targets" and immediately targeted by the Sleepers ready to shift targets.
The same will happen to ships joining the battle after it has started.
If the drones are already deployed at the start of the battle the sleepers will chose the highest DPS units and the ECM/logistic ubit first, but again, if they prove too hard to kill, they will switch to new targets and focus on the weak targets first.
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Fearless M0F0
Coalition Of Nations.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:28:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
As the drone is easily damaged and eliminated it is classed as a soft target.
Drones should take more than 1 minute to get locked by battleships but sleeper bs don't seem to follow the same lock rules... wtf CCP?
Before retiring my domi from sleeper ratting, I tried sending 5 small drones to a sleeper keeper, they didn't make to their target 40km away, poor little ones
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2009.08.04 16:05:00 -
[90]
A bit of an in-between voice here.
The NPC AI sucks.... really... badly.... it needs to be updated, potentially even to something similar to the sleepers. That being said, the poor NPC AI and the poor drone UI/AI currently match up pretty well. If the NPC AI is going to be updated, the drone AI/UI should be worked on too. Better management tools, less brain-dead drones, etc. A detailed 'this is the behavior I want you to follow' panel would be nice.
Ok, the ideal ideal case from my perspective would be open up the drone AI a bit by having an in-game scripting language and let players decide how their drones should behave. Perhaps some new scripting skills so good drone scrips can be packaged up and sold on the market ^_^
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