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Zaiyo Modi
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2009.05.25 10:42:00 -
[1]
I am curious to know if anyone know of anything mentioned in the chronicles or other documents about how starships are fueled (fueltype).
I don't recall of ever reading about exactly what is used for fuel, for propulsion engines.
Would it perhaps be ice products?
I am asking about what is already mentioned for the eve universe and isn't interested in speculation. |
Jana Clant
New Dawn Tribe New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.25 10:49:00 -
[2]
They use the reactor core to power the engines, as far as I know. |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2009.05.25 10:51:00 -
[3]
Popular belief has it tears fuel propulsion. |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.05.25 10:57:00 -
[4]
There was a tech article floating around about it but it only covered reactors.
Caldari got Gravimetric Reactors (aka singularity) to power thier ships and detonate their missiles. (so most of that kinetic effect is the minature black holes attempting to rip your hull apart before it rapidly collasped) how they get thier ships form point a to b on thrusters is beyond my memory.
Gallente use Ion and Magnetic Ion Pulse thrusters, forgot how thier missiles detonated but it causes alot of friction when embedded into hull and amor plating.
Ammar and Minmatar use Nuclear reactors which one is fission and fusion not sure, I belive the minmatar run hot on the fission varitey. Both of them use ionized plasma thrusters |
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:03:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 25/05/2009 11:03:26
Originally by: Nova Fox
Gallente use Ion and Magnetic Ion Pulse thrusters, forgot how thier missiles detonated but it causes alot of friction when embedded into hull and amor plating.
Ammar and Minmatar use Nuclear reactors which one is fission and fusion not sure, I belive the minmatar run hot on the fission varitey. Both of them use ionized plasma thrusters
Gallente use fusion reactors to power their ion drives. And only two or three of their ships use missiles at all.
Amarr use matter/antimatter reactors like in Star Trek. Minmatar use fission reactors. After thousands of years into the future, Minmatar still use technology that's getting old by today's standards. |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:05:00 -
[6]
thanks for the corrections. |
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 25/05/2009 11:38:27
Originally by: Arthur Frayn ... After thousands of years into the future, Minmatar still use technology that's getting old by today's standards.
whatever minmatar use is as advanced as any other faction. contemporary technology allows only fraction of EVE speeds at the requirement of most of the ship being fuel.
techno babble: EVE ships probably use "reactionless thrusters" (providing thrust without mass). more specifically, gravity manipulation device that creates local gravity pull in the direction ship is heading. effect is, ship "falls" where it needs to go, without acceleration defects. |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 25/05/2009 11:38:27
Originally by: Arthur Frayn ... After thousands of years into the future, Minmatar still use technology that's getting old by today's standards.
whatever minmatar use is as advanced as any other faction. contemporary technology allows only fraction of EVE speeds at the requirement of most of the ship being fuel.
techno babble: EVE ships probably use "reactionless thrusters" (providing thrust without mass). more specifically, gravity manipulation device that creates local gravity pull in the direction ship is heading. effect is, ship "falls" where it needs to go, without acceleration defects.
Whats the maximum speed of 'fall'! :) |
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes whatever minmatar use is as advanced as any other faction. contemporary technology allows only fraction of EVE speeds at the requirement of most of the ship being fuel.
I'm talking about fission reactors and artillery. Think about that. Propelling a large metal slug through a barrel by triggering an explosion at the base with chemicals like gunpowder. Even now railgun technology is being developed for use by the american navy.
And fission reactors? We already have fusion reactors now, the final hurdle to get over is making them produce more energy than they consume.
Sure the Minmatar have drive systems that allow their battleships to move at a whopping 150 m/s in space (something that the apollo spacecraft beat by a SIGNIFICANT margin). But we also have the technology to propel spaceships with nuclear weapons fired out the back to propel the ship forward, it just so happens to be banned.
Should I also mention we have space probes with ion drives that can accelerate to close to the speed of light? |
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:47:00 -
[10]
should i mention minimum warp speed? freighters warp at 0.8 AU per second. that comes to about 384 times speed of light. that's fast, huh? and it doesn't even have to be red. |
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes should i mention minimum warp speed? freighters warp at 0.8 AU per second. that comes to about 384 times speed of light. that's fast, huh? and it doesn't even have to be red.
Warp drive and shields are just about the only technology that Minmatar have that's demonstrably more advanced than modern earth tech. Like I said, they're still using outdated tech by our standards. This point hasn't been refuted. |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:54:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 25/05/2009 11:54:21
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Originally by: Jagga Spikes whatever minmatar use is as advanced as any other faction. contemporary technology allows only fraction of EVE speeds at the requirement of most of the ship being fuel.
I'm talking about fission reactors and artillery. Think about that. Propelling a large metal slug through a barrel by triggering an explosion at the base with chemicals like gunpowder. Even now railgun technology is being developed for use by the american navy.
And fission reactors? We already have fusion reactors now, the final hurdle to get over is making them produce more energy than they consume.
Sure the Minmatar have drive systems that allow their battleships to move at a whopping 150 m/s in space (something that the apollo spacecraft beat by a SIGNIFICANT margin). But we also have the technology to propel spaceships with nuclear weapons fired out the back to propel the ship forward, it just so happens to be banned.
Should I also mention we have space probes with ion drives that can accelerate to close to the speed of light?
We use combustion to power many of our devices. However the technology of the first device driven by combustion and the latest devices which still use the basic principle of combustion are so far apart as to be unrecognizable as similiar technology.
Maybe its the same. Maybe the minnies use of fission is so advance that it compares similiarly to our uses of the stokers fire boiling water to produce steam to push along a antique train and a nuclear reactor using heat to produce steam to push along a state of the art virginia class attack sub.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes techno babble: EVE ships probably use "reactionless thrusters" (providing thrust without mass). more specifically, gravity manipulation device that creates local gravity pull in the direction ship is heading. effect is, ship "falls" where it needs to go, without acceleration defects.
Conservation of Momentum strikes your idea doing OVER 9000 damage!
While you can turn energy into movement (kinetic energy), you must still keep the total momentum of the system constant. Therefore you ALWAYS need to push against something in order to accelerate. See Newton's Third Law.
As for how I think they work, it could simply be a very powerful ion drive which works by accelerating particles collected from the local solar wind/gas clouds/etc to close to light speed. Momentum is conserved, and it would also explain the glowing thruster trails. |
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:01:00 -
[14]
you are comparing wrong things. stats in game are based on game balance and "tech" is just fluff (it highly improbable that different technologies will provide exactly the same result; i.e. warp speed per class). you can't compare minmatar or any of their technology with ours. you can only compare it with other factions. and it works just as good, on the average.
all factions in EVE have interstellar societies. we have only our planet. if that isn't enough to atest to their technological superiority, i don't know what is. |
21 Salvager
Minmatar We are Live
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:03:00 -
[15]
Just looking at the T2 construction components: Amarr: Power Core: Antimatter Reactor Unit (antimatter fuel) Propulsion: Fusion Thruster
Caldari: Power Core: Graviton Reactor Unit (AKA, micro black holes) Propulsion: Magpulse Thruster
Gallente: Power Core: Fusion Reactor Unit (fusion fuel) Propulsion: Ion Thruster
Minmatar: Power Core: Nuclear Reactor Unit (fission fuel I guess) Propulsion: Plasma Thruster
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Karentaki ...simply be a very powerful ion drive ...
if that isn't an understatement... :) that's why i said "techno-babble". |
Malvaceae Veri
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 25/05/2009 11:54:21
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Originally by: Jagga Spikes whatever minmatar use is as advanced as any other faction. contemporary technology allows only fraction of EVE speeds at the requirement of most of the ship being fuel.
I'm talking about fission reactors and artillery. Think about that. Propelling a large metal slug through a barrel by triggering an explosion at the base with chemicals like gunpowder. Even now railgun technology is being developed for use by the american navy.
And fission reactors? We already have fusion reactors now, the final hurdle to get over is making them produce more energy than they consume.
Sure the Minmatar have drive systems that allow their battleships to move at a whopping 150 m/s in space (something that the apollo spacecraft beat by a SIGNIFICANT margin). But we also have the technology to propel spaceships with nuclear weapons fired out the back to propel the ship forward, it just so happens to be banned.
Should I also mention we have space probes with ion drives that can accelerate to close to the speed of light?
We use combustion to power many of our devices. However the technology of the first device driven by combustion and the latest devices which still use the basic principle of combustion are so far apart as to be unrecognizable as similiar technology.
Maybe its the same. Maybe the minnies use of fission is so advance that it compares similiarly to our uses of the stokers fire boiling water to produce steam to push along a antique train and a nuclear reactor using heat to produce steam to push along a state of the art virginia class attack sub.
To iterate this point, all of our electricity comes from nothing more than giant steam engines (with a few exceptions, granted). Gas plants burn gas, heat water, generate steam, steam drives turbines. Coal plants, the same. Nuclear plants, the same.
The same principle. Hell, how your car moves and how the Saturn V moves uses the same principles and inherent physical laws (action-reaction, conservation of momentum, etc) . Does this make the Saturn V equal to your car? No.
The "fact" that Minmatar ships still use nuclear fission and chemical weapon propulsion principles means frankly, nothing. Hell, your trusty 9mm sidearm uses the same principles as a 15th turkish handcannon. |
Stormwind Bloodfeather
Minmatar Diablo Advocatus
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:30:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Stormwind Bloodfeather on 25/05/2009 12:33:30
Originally by: Arthur Frayn And fission reactors? We already have fusion reactors now, the final hurdle to get over is making them produce more energy than they consume.
Only partially true. Fusion reactors at present can only sustain reaction for fractions of a second. No sustainable Fusion reaction has ever taken place on this planet. YET. Although several prototype reactors are being built that 'may' be able to do this.
Originally by: Arthur Frayn Sure the Minmatar have drive systems that allow their battleships to move at a whopping 150 m/s in space (something that the apollo spacecraft beat by a SIGNIFICANT margin). But we also have the technology to propel spaceships with nuclear weapons fired out the back to propel the ship forward, it just so happens to be banned.
We actually don't have any real technology to do this. We have THEORY and SUPPOSITION on how to do this, and aside from international treaties banning nuclear weapons in space (which everyone knows the treaty countries totally ignore anyway), the mass required to shield a ship from the effects of such a drive, would make the drive extremely useless.
Originally by: Arthur Frayn Should I also mention we have space probes with ion drives that can accelerate to close to the speed of light?
No they can't. ION propulsion has very low thrust to weight ratio. It takes an ION motor significantly longer than standard chemical engines to achieve even interstellar speeds and while they have the potential to burn longer (years) the amount of thrust produced is NOT enough to drive even a small spacecraft to 'near light speeds'. The sad fact is, the amount fuel required to propel a ship to even 1/2 the speed of light would weigh far more than ION drives can push.
In case you didn't know... ION drives require 'something' to IONIZE (i.e. a fuel source) and while they can be POWERED by solar cells (providing the energy required to IONIZE the propulsive agent), that FUEL (the propulsive agent) is the limiting factor in the ships ability to increase speed. Even if you power it with a small reactor for interstellar trips, you still need an ionizing agent. w/o that, your ION drive is just so much manufactured garbage. So, in the end you run into the problem of needing more mass (fuel and energy) to propel your ship to anywhere close to even 1/2 light speed, than your engine can actually PUSH to that speed before the mass is used up.
~SB
p.s. Interstellar RAM drives while a nice concept, at this point in our technology are not feasible, |
Kezzle
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn Warp drive and shields are just about the only technology that Minmatar have that's demonstrably more advanced than modern earth tech. Like I said, they're still using outdated tech by our standards. This point hasn't been refuted.
Disagree. The maximum speeds reachable by whatever handwavium drive everyone uses are spectacularly low, low enough to be unable to break orbit from round an earth-sized planet, but their delta-v total is massive. You can fly backwards and forwards forever, turning, accelerating to max (zero to Mach3 in a few seconds is pretty good), decelerating, and they don't run out of either fuel or reaction mass. That is far better than we can do today.
Their guns fire things much faster than our best efforts too. Fastest muzzle velocity I could find with a quick Google was MBT main gun at about Mach 5 (1500m/s ish). The flight time of their projectiles is so low that I'd guess at 10x that velocity. Practically instant hits by arty shells at > 15km...
It's a game, not a simulation. Why expect even verisimilitude, let alone rationality? |
Krystal Vernet
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:46:00 -
[20]
Keep in mind that the Minmatar are also canonly fairly newly freed from centuries of enslavement. They're essentially starting over, and may not yet have the advanced infrastructure in place to build and maintain the more advanced sci-fi gadgets the other races can field. |
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Sumelar
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Posted - 2009.05.25 14:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Warp drive and shields are just about the only technology that Minmatar have that's demonstrably more advanced than modern earth tech. Like I said, they're still using outdated tech by our standards. This point hasn't been refuted.
Pretty sure this falls under the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" category. It doesn't need to be refuted. Guns and fission energy work just fine, why would they waste time and resources developing something else? |
Vengal Seyhan
Minmatar Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.05.25 14:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sumelar
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Warp drive and shields are just about the only technology that Minmatar have that's demonstrably more advanced than modern earth tech. Like I said, they're still using outdated tech by our standards. This point hasn't been refuted.
Pretty sure this falls under the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" category. It doesn't need to be refuted. Guns and fission energy work just fine, why would they waste time and resources developing something else?
Hell yeah.... it's the Minmatar motto: "forget the fixing the engine, we need to find a way to fit bigger guns on this tub!"
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.05.25 18:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather Edited by: Stormwind Bloodfeather on 25/05/2009 12:33:30
Originally by: Arthur Frayn And fission reactors? We already have fusion reactors now, the final hurdle to get over is making them produce more energy than they consume.
Only partially true. Fusion reactors at present can only sustain reaction for fractions of a second. No sustainable Fusion reaction has ever taken place on this planet. YET. Although several prototype reactors are being built that 'may' be able to do this.
Wasnt one announced like 2 months ago being fully sustainable? just it takes more energy to run than it makes built by two former printer engineeers?
Yeah I concourr with Ion thrusters, i mean hell they make em out of coke cans now and give decent stablizing thrusts for sattelites. |
Discrodia
Gallente Guild Navy Guild Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.25 20:00:00 -
[24]
I'm pretty sure that each race's ships either: A. Carry so much fuel as to make refueling basically unneeded. B. Synthesize the fuel from random solar debris. or C. Don't need fuel at all, being sustained by enviromental power alone.
I'm generally inclined to find A and B more likely, but C also has some merits, as why else do some mimy ships have solar panels?
Besides, fuel for just your basic ships would be a pain in the ass to manage, and would make EVE pretty annoying. |
Stormwind Bloodfeather
Minmatar Diablo Advocatus
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Posted - 2009.05.25 20:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nova Fox
Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather Edited by: Stormwind Bloodfeather on 25/05/2009 12:33:30
Originally by: Arthur Frayn And fission reactors? We already have fusion reactors now, the final hurdle to get over is making them produce more energy than they consume.
Only partially true. Fusion reactors at present can only sustain reaction for fractions of a second. No sustainable Fusion reaction has ever taken place on this planet. YET. Although several prototype reactors are being built that 'may' be able to do this.
Wasnt one announced like 2 months ago being fully sustainable? just it takes more energy to run than it makes built by two former printer engineeers?
Yeah I concourr with Ion thrusters, i mean hell they make em out of coke cans now and give decent stablizing thrusts for sattelites.
Haven't found anything on that. They have several that have been announced recently that are in the building stages of prototypes, but nothing full scale and nothing that is actually running. I'm sure when they make one that actually runs non stop the news will be full of it for weeks as that will be the death knell for Big Oil.
~SB
In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy! |
Mia Restolo
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Posted - 2009.05.25 20:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nova Fox
Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather Edited by: Stormwind Bloodfeather on 25/05/2009 12:33:30
Originally by: Arthur Frayn And fission reactors? We already have fusion reactors now, the final hurdle to get over is making them produce more energy than they consume.
Only partially true. Fusion reactors at present can only sustain reaction for fractions of a second. No sustainable Fusion reaction has ever taken place on this planet. YET. Although several prototype reactors are being built that 'may' be able to do this.
Wasnt one announced like 2 months ago being fully sustainable? just it takes more energy to run than it makes built by two former printer engineeers?...
It's actually pretty easy to build a device which will continuously fuse atoms, some kids make them for high school science fair projects.
When they say 'sustainable' though, they mean a reaction that doesn't need to have additional outside power added to keep running. The closest example of that is the sun.
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Amitious Turkey
Gallente Ammo Tech Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.25 20:58:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Amitious Turkey on 25/05/2009 21:04:33
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Originally by: Jagga Spikes should i mention minimum warp speed? freighters warp at 0.8 AU per second. that comes to about 384 times speed of light. that's fast, huh? and it doesn't even have to be red.
Warp drive and shields are just about the only technology that Minmatar have that's demonstrably more advanced than modern earth tech. Like I said, they're still using outdated tech by our standards. This point hasn't been refuted.
Eh, a minnie ship can still kill, and they are the fastest ships in the game. If it aint broke, don't fix it?
EDIT: Fail for not reading all poasts |
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