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Lexmana
Imperial Stout
438
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Posted - 2012.05.12 13:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR: Splitting turrets in two groups (or more) will increase your DPS when killing multiple targets. This is because of less overflow damage when the target dies. With Tachyons three shooting your targets, splitting guns in two groups will best all implants available in game and give you Gëê +9% DPS.
Theoretically, this also applies to missiles but mechanics makes it very difficult utilize on that weapon system. It should also apply to fleet fights with some minor tweaks to server tick penalties and of course counting volleys from all fleet members.
The theory Popular fitting tools such as pyfa will give you a DPS rating for your guns. Most players know that this is not the DPS you will do in a fight though; since it assumes perfect conditions (being in optimal range with perfect tracking) and also that you shoot forever on a target that never dies.
When a target dies, your volley had more (or equal) damage potential than the target had HP. This means that there is overflow damage never applied to the target decreasing your DPS from the theoretical maximum. It turns out that this overflow damage is Gëê50% of the volley damage in average if you shoot at a random distribution of targets.
The mechanics When shooting with grouped guns, all guns damage is combined into a single volley and applied on target in one go as confirmed by Greyscale. But if you split your guns in two groups, there will be two separate, and smaller volleys, applied to the target.
Tranquility (the EVE server) operates in discrete units of time called ticks. These ticks are one second long and often assumed to be the highest time resolution possible in EVE. Even if you click one button quickly after another (e.g. MWD+Cloak) if they are executed in the same tick they happen simultaneously.
But that is not entirely true because within each tick actions are in fact evaluated sequentially. If you fire two guns on one target and the target dies from the first gun, the second gun does not even cycle (because there is no target) and can be activated again immediately, or rather the next server tick. This is the mechanic we will use to increase our DPS by splitting our guns in two (or more) groups.
The math In these calculations we will assume continuous shooting on a random distribution of of sequential targets with a total volley size that is smaller than half the targets original HP. We also assume all weapon groups to be identical. We make a difference between the volley damage from a single group (VolleyGroup) and all guns combined (VolleyTotal) and calculates the overflow damage.
VolleyTotal = VolleyGroup*Groups Overflow = 0.5* VolleyGroup
If we know the number of volleys (N) we need shoot to to kill our target we can calculate our VolleyEfficiency:
VolleyEfficiency = (N* VolleyTotal GÇôOverflow) / (N* VolleyTotal)
We know that there is a short delay before we can reactivate our (Gëê50%) free guns when the target dies (Gëê50% of the time) and we can use this server TickPenalty (minimum 1 sec) to calculate an Effective Rate Of Fire (eROF). After that it is easy to calculate our DPS.
eROF = ROF+TickPenalty/NoOfVolleys*0.5*0.5 DPS = (VolleyEfficiency/ eROF)* VolleyTotal
Examples In this table VolleyTotal is set to 1. To compensate for increased complexity in activating all guns correctly we use a TickPenalty of 1 sec for two groups, 2 sec for four groups and 3 sec for eight Groups. Gun ROF is 7 seconds and targets die in three volleys. The most dramatic effect is between one group and splitting guns in two groups which gives +9% DPS.
Groups 1 2 4 8 TickPenalty 0 1 2 3
Overflow.500.250.125.063 VolleyEfficiency.833.917.958.979 eROF7.007.087.177.25 DPS.119.129.134.135
DPS%100%109%112%113%
Below are some calculations for DPS increase compared to only one group of guns for situations with ROF 5, 10, 15 sec and targets that die in 2, 4 or 6 volleys (N) .
No of weapon groups ROF N 2 4 8 5 2114%119%120% 5 4106%108%108% 5 6104%105%105% 10 2115%122%124% 10 4106%109%110% 10 6104%106%107% 15 2116%123%126% 15 4107%110%111% 15 6104%106%107%
Fun fact An Arty Tornado will take 123 seconds to kill 8 stationary shuttles with all weapons in one single group doing 51 DPS. Ungrouping the guns reduce the time to apply this damage to 8 seconds boosting DPS 1540%! |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
111
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Posted - 2012.05.12 17:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Interesting, i had already seen people doing this and it was quite easy to understand why. This is the mathematical confirmation.
(Also i'd say it's useful in pve when rats have low health.) |
Kasutra
Tailor Company
33
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Posted - 2012.05.12 18:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
This should be a rather intuitive result for anyone who has alpha'd off a series of targets.
Personally, I like grouping my weapons into a total of four groups, one for each finger on the left hand (except for the thumb). |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
440
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Posted - 2012.05.12 19:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Also i'd say it's useful in pve when rats have low health. yeah, it is non-linear and the largest benefit comes whan you can alpha your targets with a single gun as my fun fact exmaple of the tornado. But there is also a clear benefit even in more normal situations.
Kasutra wrote:This should be a rather intuitive result for anyone who has alpha'd off a series of targets.
Personally, I like grouping my weapons into a total of four groups, one for each finger on the left hand (except for the thumb). I have been running with two groups for convenience most of the time but after doing these calculations I start to think that it might be worth the hassle splitting in three or four at least in some situations. |
Death Toll007
Fleet of Doom Psychotic Tendencies.
52
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Posted - 2012.05.12 19:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
This tactic is most effective against numernous small targets, but in fleet fights against robust targets I would suggest an alternative. Group your weapons into 3/4 and 1/4 of DPS, apply 3/4 to primary target. Have everyone in fleet with same overview and require the locking of top 7 targets and tell your fleet to free fire the 1/4 dps with personnel responsible for positions within the top seven.
Most Logi pilots use broadcasts to begin targeting for reps. If they are watchlist logi pilots it can be significantly more difficult because they will be gauging the damage for reps.
Sounds complicated? How it would play out: Top seven targets are locked, primary is locked all fleet members engage primary with 3/4, the remaining 6 locked targets are engaged with 1/4 dps of each ship assigned to it, so say a 20 man fleet, each remaining target has approximately 3 people on it with 1/4 dps. Players spam the broadcast button seeing they are locked, and divide logi attention. If it works and you get the first couple of kills, you gain the inititative and hamper their DPS enough to continue the detruction regardless.
-DT |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
437
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Posted - 2012.05.12 21:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Death Toll007 wrote:This tactic is most effective against numernous small targets, but in fleet fights against robust targets I would suggest an alternative. Group your weapons into 3/4 and 1/4 of DPS, apply 3/4 to primary target. Have everyone in fleet with same overview and require the locking of top 7 targets and tell your fleet to free fire the 1/4 dps with personnel responsible for positions within the top seven.
Most Logi pilots use broadcasts to begin targeting for reps. If they are watchlist logi pilots it can be significantly more difficult because they will be gauging the damage for reps.
Sounds complicated? How it would play out: Top seven targets are locked, primary is locked all fleet members engage primary with 3/4, the remaining 6 locked targets are engaged with 1/4 dps of each ship assigned to it, so say a 20 man fleet, each remaining target has approximately 3 people on it with 1/4 dps. Players spam the broadcast button seeing they are locked, and divide logi attention. If it works and you get the first couple of kills, you gain the inititative and hamper their DPS enough to continue the detruction regardless.
-DT
This sounds good in theory, but the TQ reality is that one logi can effectively nullify the DPS from 2 - 9 DPS ships (ship, fit, positioning, etc. depending) and splitting fire gives too much time for them to gather their wits and spread reps around. The one case it does work is being bombed, which is pretty much a null-only thing. And it's effectiveness is limited for more experienced groups or if you do it repeatedly in the same fight. |
Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
37
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Posted - 2012.05.12 21:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thanks for this. It's horrendously obvious and horrendously easy to overlook, I know I have. |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
329
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Posted - 2012.05.13 01:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
But, but, but.. think of all the hi-sec Drake pilots! You are going to confuse them. They don't understand the concept of F2! It will cause all the plants to die! Goons and bears living together! Mass hysteria! The UI is getting better (on SiSi), but please, jump on and try the new inventory system. Let's try to avoid another 'Incaran/Door' issue. The Unified Inventory is going to potentially anger a lot of players, go try it and see what you think of it. May 22nd is just around the corner! |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
115
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Posted - 2012.05.13 01:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
MadMuppet wrote:But, but, but.. think of all the hi-sec Drake pilots! You are going to confuse them. They don't understand the concept of F2! It will cause all the plants to die! Goons and bears living together! Mass hysteria!
This doesnt work for missiles.
With missiles you can divide in how many groups you want: the travel time will decide your real dps. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
718
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Posted - 2012.05.13 01:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
hehe. thanks for the math. I always use two groups of large guns since there is the chance to alptha strike two frigs at once. In pvp its also a nice trick to bait your enemy by using only a subset of your guns. The more confident he is, the better. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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stoicfaux
1051
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Posted - 2012.05.13 01:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
MadMuppet wrote:But, but, but.. think of all the hi-sec Drake pilots! You are going to confuse them. They don't understand the concept of F2! It will cause all the plants to die! Goons and bears living together! Mass hysteria! It's opposite for missiles against NPCs. http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1369392
Each group of missiles has a chance of triggering an NPC defender. Launching six individual missiles results in six NPC defender checks. Launching a single group of six missiles results in just one NPC defender check. Thus grouped missiles suffer less from defenders if they're grouped. However...
...there are some NPCs who get a missile damage multiplier that's high enough to kill multiple missiles with one defender. In those cases, you'll do more damage by ungrouping your missiles. See post #19 in the linked thread above.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Lexmana
Imperial Stout
440
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Posted - 2012.05.13 07:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
I see some good comments about fleets. The main factor to consider for fleet warfare is number of volleys to kill a target (with or without reps) and since fleet warfare see many targets in the range 100-200k HP the result is not as impressive.
For hellcats (Abaddon) the volley damage is so low that it takes a minimum of 30 volleys (Scorch) to kill another hellcat. That would only give Gëê 0.7-1.1% increase in DPS by splitting guns (2-8 groups).
Alpha fleets have more to gain. It takes Gëê 10 volleys for an Arty maelstrom to kill a weak Abaddon or a Drake. That would give Gëê2.5%-4.3% increase in DPS (2-8 groups). For targets that can soak 20 volleys the numbers are 1.2-2.1%.
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Death Toll007
Fleet of Doom Psychotic Tendencies.
54
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Posted - 2012.05.15 20:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:This sounds good in theory, but the TQ reality is that one logi can effectively nullify the DPS from 2 - 9 DPS ships (ship, fit, positioning, etc. depending) and splitting fire gives too much time for them to gather their wits and spread reps around. The one case it does work is being bombed, which is pretty much a null-only thing. And it's effectiveness is limited for more experienced groups or if you do it repeatedly in the same fight.
Everything you say is true... this works when operating in new areas, inexperienced fleets or inexperienced logi pilots. As stated it plays out in the first stages of an engagement, if you do not get a kill in the first 30 seconds and gain the momentum, focus fire.
-DT
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Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.05.17 12:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
On a quick resume: if you don't get up to eat or take a crap sometimes you will get about 1354% extra DPS. The math is correct. |
ELECTR0FREAK
44
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Posted - 2012.05.17 17:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:MadMuppet wrote:But, but, but.. think of all the hi-sec Drake pilots! You are going to confuse them. They don't understand the concept of F2! It will cause all the plants to die! Goons and bears living together! Mass hysteria! It's opposite for missiles against NPCs. http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1369392Each group of missiles has a chance of triggering an NPC defender. Launching six individual missiles results in six NPC defender checks. Launching a single group of six missiles results in just one NPC defender check. Thus grouped missiles suffer less from defenders if they're grouped. However... ...there are some NPCs who get a missile damage multiplier that's high enough to kill multiple missiles with one defender. In those cases, you'll do more damage by ungrouping your missiles. See post #19 in the linked thread above.
^ This.
Once the missile expert, always the missile expert, eh? :) Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
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