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Broken Ghost
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Posted - 2009.05.26 02:43:00 -
[1]
Serenity Steele from eve-maps.com just sent an email to their database that is not CAN-SPAM act compliant.
I'd hate to see this candidate get benefit from this illegal action.
I like their maps, they might be good people, but breaking the law to get votes in a computer game is wrong.
Among other faults, no unsubscribe link was included.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/canspam.html
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.05.26 03:22:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Broken Ghost Serenity Steele from eve-maps.com just sent an email to their database that is not CAN-SPAM act compliant.
The email also contains links which say such apparently neutral things as "do not let your voice go to waste - vote!" that when clicked appear to directly cast a vote for Steele rather than leading merely to the voting page. So it seems he's being grossly dishonest in addition to annoying the hell out of us with his unsolicited spam.
Says a lot about the candidate imho.
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Broken Ghost
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Posted - 2009.05.26 03:24:00 -
[3]
This canidate needs to be stopped/punished.
They might be a good people, but this was not a good move.
I don't look forward to the spam-fest next election if this gets allowed.
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Johnathan Roark
Caldari Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.26 05:21:00 -
[4]
Well, He abused my faith in providing his website with his email. I signed up for the outpost alerts, which I have stopped receiving it seems long ago.
Vuk Lau for CSM 3.0 |
Broken Ghost
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Posted - 2009.05.26 05:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Johnathan Roark Well, He abused my faith in providing his website with his email. I signed up for the outpost alerts, which I have stopped receiving it seems long ago.
So that's what it is. So it's not even an active double-optin list.
This guy seriously need to get acquainted with his anti-spam laws.
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Broken Ghost
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Posted - 2009.05.26 05:57:00 -
[6]
Did he ask for approval to direct link the vote submission?
By the way he's put in those vote links it appears as if the CSM voting system has XSS vulnerability.
1. Create a page and promote it to eve users (or just use a **** site) 2. Place an image on the page that has it's SRC as the voting URL. 3. Any users logged into eve-online.com who visit this page will register a vote without their knowledge.
Instant free votes from everyone who visits the page.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2009.05.26 10:27:00 -
[7]
I can understand if you take issue to me using the eve-maps mailing list, because it doesn't relate to directly to the map book. I had diverse reactions from "I already voted for you" to "Good Luck" to your reaction.
Please consider the following in your judgement: - It is my own emailing list and domain name - I used for my own CSM campaign to promoting my avatar/author of the book - It's the only message not related directly to the maps I've sent in 3 years. - The email is from my private email address on the domain
In my first campaign, I appended my campaign message to the bottom of an outpost alert email, rather than making a dedicated email about it. Like the first time, i'll use more discretion in the future!
IT IS LEGAL For the points about it being "illegal", this is incorrect; The CAN SPAM act refers to commercial messages (which my email was not) and it explicitly states "The FCCÆs ban also does not cover non-commercial messages, such as messages about candidates for public office. "
Regardless of the non-requirement; - You signed-up to my mailing list - The subject clearly stated "Eve's Future: Vote for Serenity Steele" - It was clear who the email was from - The email has a valid reply address - You can unsubscribe on the site or simply reply. You're right, I didn't add a specific unsubscribe link as it was from me personally - my bad.
IT IS NOT TRICK CODE The email contains 3 external references: My Avatar: http://img.eve.is/serv.asp?s=256&c=1761171880 The vote button: http://www.eveonline.com/council/img/button_vote.png Hyperlink: http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=227
The message is clearly about voting for me, targeted only to users of the website or owners of the book, and the Hyperlink leads to the confirm page. The user still has to click "Confirm" to confirm their vote.
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Von Aeternum
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Posted - 2009.05.26 11:17:00 -
[8]
I wasnt going to vote at all, and then I got his email. So I start thinking about the great work he did with the maps, and thought "why not?". But instead of following the link, I opened the CSM candidate list on the eve website to check out the other candidates. After that, I voted for Serenity, with my both accounts. Its said that everybody complains when someone allegedly does something wrong; but nobody notices when someone surelly does something right. Good job Serenity Steele.
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Imertu Solientai
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.26 11:30:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Imertu Solientai on 26/05/2009 11:30:16 Edited by: Imertu Solientai on 26/05/2009 11:29:59 As far as I can see from his post, he did nothing wrong. However, I do worry that other candidates might use trickery such as that described earlier to get people to vote without their consent.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.05.26 11:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Imertu Solientai As far as I can see from his post, he did nothing wrong. However, I do worry that other candidates might use trickery such as that described earlier to get people to vote without their consent.
I've had a friend in Goonswarm claim that when he tried to vote for Erik, it was told that he had already voted, when he's sure he has not.
Worth investigating... ---
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Fhodut Jah
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Posted - 2009.05.26 11:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Imertu Solientai As far as I can see from his post, he did nothing wrong. However, I do worry that other candidates might use trickery such as that described earlier to get people to vote without their consent.
I've had a friend in Goonswarm claim that when he tried to vote for Erik, it was told that he had already voted, when he's sure he has not.
Worth investigating...
Drugs are bad, m'kay?
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010110111001
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Posted - 2009.05.26 13:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Fhodut Jah
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Imertu Solientai As far as I can see from his post, he did nothing wrong. However, I do worry that other candidates might use trickery such as that described earlier to get people to vote without their consent.
I've had a friend in Goonswarm claim that when he tried to vote for Erik, it was told that he had already voted, when he's sure he has not.
Worth investigating...
Drugs are bad, m'kay?
Wasn't she Dutch?
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mazzilliu
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.26 13:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Imertu Solientai As far as I can see from his post, he did nothing wrong. However, I do worry that other candidates might use trickery such as that described earlier to get people to vote without their consent.
I've had a friend in Goonswarm claim that when he tried to vote for Erik, it was told that he had already voted, when he's sure he has not.
Worth investigating...
i think we should ban goonswarm for this
thanks for all the tips for my next CSM run guys VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL |
Ghaelsto Kakram
Mindgamers
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Posted - 2009.05.26 13:44:00 -
[14]
What if your tax returns contained a leaflet for the major ruling party?
CCP should remove Serenity Steele from the candidates list for pulling a stunt like this. Voting should be based on the ideals of candidates and not mis usage of an in game service.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram What if your tax returns contained a leaflet for the major ruling party?
CCP should remove Serenity Steele from the candidates list for pulling a stunt like this. Voting should be based on the ideals of candidates and not mis usage of an in game service.
Government is supposed to be impartial, Eve Maps is not. Those two situations are not comparable. And this stunt is no worse than "Vote for me because I'm a girl", "Vote for me because I'll bribe you", or any of a dozen other stunts CSM candidates pull all the time. I think it's a bit sleazy, but not enough to really influence my vote(even if I hadn't already voted for myself). Bring it to the attention of people who will care, sure, but it's not even close to on par with including political literature in tax documents.
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Jalxan
Caldari Seventh Millenium
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Posted - 2009.05.26 17:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Government is supposed to be impartial, Eve Maps is not. Those two situations are not comparable. And this stunt is no worse than "Vote for me because I'm a girl", "Vote for me because I'll bribe you", or any of a dozen other stunts CSM candidates pull all the time. I think it's a bit sleazy, but not enough to really influence my vote(even if I hadn't already voted for myself). Bring it to the attention of people who will care, sure, but it's not even close to on par with including political literature in tax documents.
You bring up a good point, and another candidate brought up one as well (I'm not going to say who to maintain impartiality to my comments).
First of all, the majority of Eve players that I've met don't give a flying stick about who is elected for various reasons (don't care, don't believe in the system, believe it's a CCP conspiracy, etc, etc, etc). I'm one of the rare people who actually took the time to review every single candidate with a web link on the voting page (this should be a hint to future candidates!), spending a good few hours with each one to see who is the best. Because it took over 24 hours, I decided to make an entire mailing list that was 20 mails deep, which covered the redeaming features of my ten most favorite candidates, and forwarded its access to all my friends, corporation, alliance, and allied corps/alliances for them to make an informed decision.
Most people won't take the time to do it, and thus I've come to the realization that the system is broken; if it takes me 24 hours to speak with just above half of the candidates, then I can guarantee that the majority of people on Eve won't take the time to make an informed decision, instead voting along corporate lines (Goonswarm, Pandemic Legion, Band of Brothers for example will get someone in guaranteed as long as they have full-alliance support), by the candidate's home country, the coolness of their avatar, or simply clicking the candidate at the top of the list (another complaint of mine).
Sure, there are those that spam e-mails to vote for them. I've seen another offer ISK. However, I have come to the conclusion that it is necessary, because unless CCP and the CSM find a way to make voting more appealing (or mandatory?), these 'underhanded' methods are here to stay, and I dare say I encourage it, especially for those who are from a small corporation, are in NPC corporations, and those who have no backing except for their charms.
The only way I can see voting to become more popular, is to move the entire process ingame. Make an ingame applet for voting. Have ingame CCP-lead debates. Have ingame candidate question periods. Have Eve Radio maintain its interviews of candidates. Upgrade the voting page to include a summary of the person's platform rather than just the name, avatar, and corp of the person (and their webpage). And most importantly, have the candidate list randomize in order for every time someone accesses the voting page.
Maybe then we'll see even better participation. So, before picking on SS or any other candidate about using underhanded tactics for votes, ask yourself this question: If they did not use these underhanded tactics, would you have voted? For the majority, that answer would be no, unfortunately.
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Solo Player
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Posted - 2009.05.27 00:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram even if I hadn't already voted for myself
You did? I know some say a serious candidate should be convinced to be the best choice and thus vote accordingly, but I still believe it lacks style on several levels. Slightly disappointed.
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Ghaelsto Kakram
Mindgamers
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Posted - 2009.05.27 01:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Government is supposed to be impartial, Eve Maps is not. Those two situations are not comparable. And this stunt is no worse than "Vote for me because I'm a girl", "Vote for me because I'll bribe you", or any of a dozen other stunts CSM candidates pull all the time. I think it's a bit sleazy, but not enough to really influence my vote(even if I hadn't already voted for myself). Bring it to the attention of people who will care, sure, but it's not even close to on par with including political literature in tax documents.
You're missing the point I tried to make. Candidates that are prominent on Eve forums tend to get elected more because their names are familiar. So if you start exploiting the fact that you provide for an in game service you're relying on that instead of what you stand for. Makes me wonder why Serenity didn't run (and get elected) for the 2nd term.
Besides there are enough governments that control radio/TV and try to brainwash the citizens so they will vote for them again. People are so used to this they start to think its normal in an internet spaceship game as well. But even when CSM is some sort of popularity contest doesn't mean they can try and influence CCP into changing things because players care about it. Just that CCP should pay more attention to them since these 2 terms they should have taken the CSM more seriously. Several CSM members wrote that they would liked that CCP got involved more. |
Broken Ghost
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Posted - 2009.05.27 01:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
I've had a friend in Goonswarm claim that when he tried to vote for Erik, it was told that he had already voted, when he's sure he has not.
Worth investigating...
Sounds very much like someones implemented the hack.
1. This round of voting should be dropped. 2. The expoits in the voting system should be fixed. 3. Rules should be set for anti-spamming.
So currently we can safely bet that at least one of the candidates to be elected will be due to fraud.
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Broken Ghost
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Posted - 2009.05.27 01:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
- It is my own emailing list and domain name
Your list? I though I owned my email address. I only gave you limited permission to use it to send me outpost alerts.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
- It's the only message not related directly to the maps I've sent in 3 years.
Only message makes it ok? This isn't a volume issue. You messed up, it was a mistake.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
- The email is from my private email address on the domain
So you didn't even send it from the list I subscribed to, nice.
Just play fair.
Next election I look forward to FLOOD of spam and hacks. Thanks for setting the trend.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.05.27 03:31:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Broken Ghost
Originally by: Serenity Steele
- It is my own emailing list and domain name
Your list? I though I owned my email address. I only gave you limited permission to use it to send me outpost alerts.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
- It's the only message not related directly to the maps I've sent in 3 years.
Only message makes it ok? This isn't a volume issue. You messed up, it was a mistake.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
- The email is from my private email address on the domain
So you didn't even send it from the list I subscribed to, nice.
Just play fair.
Next election I look forward to FLOOD of spam and hacks. Thanks for setting the trend.
Funnily enough in your "point-by-point" rebuttal, I noticed that you somehow missed this one, so I though you might want another go.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
The CAN SPAM act refers to commercial messages (which my email was not) and it explicitly states "The FCCÆs ban also does not cover non-commercial messages, such as messages about candidates for public office.
--Vel
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.05.27 03:53:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 27/05/2009 03:53:05 bastards eh
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Broken Ghost
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Posted - 2009.05.27 04:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Funnily enough in your "point-by-point" rebuttal, I noticed that you somehow missed this one, so I though you might want another go.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
The CAN SPAM act refers to commercial messages (which my email was not) and it explicitly states "The FCCÆs ban also does not cover non-commercial messages, such as messages about candidates for public office.
Well lets be selective with what we all read.
Yes CAN-SPAM was created for commercial and specifically sexual emails. However it's the regulation the industry as a whole likes to abide by as a "best practices" even for non-commercial mails.
I think you can agree that using one list to promote another thing, with no out-out mechanism, is in the spirit of spam and not something all users will accept.
Generally if you don't want to have your ISP blocked on all the anti-spam lists (which are automatically configured on many routers) then it's a good idea to play nice. You might not be charged under CAN-SPAM but you'll still be screwed.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2009.05.27 06:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram Makes me wonder why Serenity didn't run (and get elected) for the 2nd term.
I delibrately didn't run for 2 reasons: - The meeting in Reykjavik would be in the dead-middle of winter, and I'm not so keen on going anywhere that cold. - The 2nd CSM was predicted as needing (and did) continue to deal with small fixes. I'm interested in dealing with future / universe shaping ideas.
But it was mostly the winter thing ;)
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.27 06:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jalxan The only way I can see voting to become more popular, is to move the entire process ingame. Make an ingame applet for voting. Have ingame CCP-lead debates. Have ingame candidate question periods. Have Eve Radio maintain its interviews of candidates. Upgrade the voting page to include a summary of the person's platform rather than just the name, avatar, and corp of the person (and their webpage). And most importantly, have the candidate list randomize in order for every time someone accesses the voting page.
This would probably be a good thing, but I don't think CCP wants to spend the time coding the tools necessary. As with so many other things, they could do it a lot better if they had the time and inclination. The shuffling of candidate names is important, and I'm amazed that they still haven't done it - ballot position massively skews electoral results.
Originally by: Solo Player You did? I know some say a serious candidate should be convinced to be the best choice and thus vote accordingly, but I still believe it lacks style on several levels. Slightly disappointed.
I ran because I think I have good ideas and would do a good job as a CSM member, and because I think I'd like having the job(yeah, I'm a geek). I vote for myself because I think I have good ideas and would do a good job as a CSM member, and because I think I'd like having the job. There is no other candidate I want more to be on the Council, and I think it has a chance of mattering, and as such I cast all my votes for myself.
I don't claim to be the only one who would do a good job, or the only one worthy of a seat. I won't name names, but I have several people in mind who I'm sure will be great CSM members if elected. That said, I'm running because I'd like to win, and as such I'm going to do what I can to see to it that I do, including casting both votes for myself. It might be different if I thought I was guaranteed to win, or guaranteed to lose, but I'd like to think I'm somewhere in the middle, and as such that I'm not throwing my votes away.
Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram You're missing the point I tried to make. Candidates that are prominent on Eve forums tend to get elected more because their names are familiar. So if you start exploiting the fact that you provide for an in game service you're relying on that instead of what you stand for. Makes me wonder why Serenity didn't run (and get elected) for the 2nd term.
True, but candidates use all sorts of things to get elected. Politicians strive mightily to be seen by the general public as someone they could share a beer with - a completely irrelevant piece of information, but a major part of why a lot of people get elected. Works the same way in Eve - I don't intend to disparage the candidates abilities, but DJ and Vuk won on the backs of their alliance leadership, Hardin won because he created half the alliances in the game, and I could attribute half a dozen other winners to simple and obvious constituencies. That's not all they had going for them, but I'd wager the recognition and trust level from their in-game actions was the difference between their resounding victories and likely defeat. The fact that Serenity is trying to use his in-game contacts - which presumably worked for him in CSM 1 - to win a seat on CSM 3 is hardly surprising.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The shuffling of candidate names is important, and I'm amazed that they still haven't done it - ballot position massively skews electoral results.
IIRC an analysis of the 1st CSM revealed that there was no correlation between position in the list and actual votes received.
I'd suggest run it again with 1/2/3 CSM results. The ultimate question is: Even if there is some bias; is there sufficient bias based on ballot position to get anyone elected (or stop someone being elected).
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.27 10:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Serenity Steele But it was mostly the winter thing ;)
Hey, what do I have to do with this? *waves arms around wildly*
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Akura kawanaka
DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2009.05.27 11:57:00 -
[28]
uhm... not sure if it's been mentioned yet but the CAN-SPAM act is a US law, and is therefore completely unrelated to any of the rest of the world.
not that I agree or disagree with the voting tactics in question, but I just thought I'd point it out.
especially since CCP is based in Iceland with servers in the UK.
/me holds his tounge before he starts ranting about how Americans think they control the world.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Akura kawanaka uhm... not sure if it's been mentioned yet but the CAN-SPAM act is a US law, and is therefore completely unrelated to any of the rest of the world.
not that I agree or disagree with the voting tactics in question, but I just thought I'd point it out.
especially since CCP is based in Iceland with servers in the UK.
/me holds his tounge before he starts ranting about how Americans think they control the world.
You know...I actually forgot that we didn't for a minute.
That aside, you make a good point. Unless Serenity himself is actually in the US, the law really doesn't apply in the first place, since he exists outside the jurisdiction of US courts.
--Vel
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Broken Ghost
Originally by: De'Veldrin Funnily enough in your "point-by-point" rebuttal, I noticed that you somehow missed this one, so I though you might want another go.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
The CAN SPAM act refers to commercial messages (which my email was not) and it explicitly states "The FCCÆs ban also does not cover non-commercial messages, such as messages about candidates for public office.
Well lets be selective with what we all read.
Yes CAN-SPAM was created for commercial and specifically sexual emails. However it's the regulation the industry as a whole likes to abide by as a "best practices" even for non-commercial mails.
I think you can agree that using one list to promote another thing, with no out-out mechanism, is in the spirit of spam and not something all users will accept.
Generally if you don't want to have your ISP blocked on all the anti-spam lists (which are automatically configured on many routers) then it's a good idea to play nice. You might not be charged under CAN-SPAM but you'll still be screwed.
Which industry would that be exactly? The "Maps for Space Games industry" I presume, since that's the one Serenity belongs to?
That aside, let's look at the actual act.
Here's a snippet from the FCC's website
Originally by: Federal Communications Commission
In enacting the CAN-SPAM Act, Congress made the following determinations of public policy, set forth in section 7701(b) of the Act: (1) there is a substantial government interest in regulation of commercial electronic mail on a nationwide basis; (2) senders of commercial electronic mail should not mislead recipients as to the source or content of such mail; and (3) recipients of commercial electronic mail have a right to decline to receive additional commercial electronic mail from the same source.
You'll notice every single reference there is dealing strictly with commercial email. So the first test is: Is this email commercial in nature? If the answer is no, then regardless of the fact that the email may be junk it doesn't meet the established legal definition of spam.
--Vel
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
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