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why arent any new t2 ship bpo's out there ?

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destinationunreachable Hello Kitty Fanclub	Posted - 2009.05.31 10:32:00 - [31] The market for items like command ships, black ops, marauders etc... is so small, that small changes change the market. Every average producer could potentially produce enough of those items to saturate a market hub. In this segment there are also many people who build it not for profit, but for self usage and then build one more and think they make profit. The main difference is, that my investment in invention is a) small b) keeps it's value c) changable . I don't loose billions if the market changes, I simply move on. As one of the guys above said: the T2 BPO market is a bubble, which is created and kept alive by people like you. The current time to profit of 4 years is a joke, a target would be 6-9 months
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.05.31 10:40:00 - [32] Originally by: destinationunreachable As one of the guys above said: the T2 BPO market is a bubble, which is created and kept alive by people like you. The current time to profit of 4 years is a joke, a target would be 6-9 months 4 years is quite conservative, some T2 BPOs out there are selling for 10-11 years worth of profit, most are actually less valuable per slot hour than either building a T1 item, or inventing another T2 item instead. There are very few T2 items for which the BPO is actually more valuable in terms of income than using that same slot for something else. And those BPOs that are the ones for which the market is almost entirely supplied by invention.
destinationunreachable Hello Kitty Fanclub	Posted - 2009.05.31 11:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Lord Fitz 4 years is quite conservative, some T2 BPOs out there are selling for 10-11 years worth of profit, most are actually less valuable per slot hour than either building a T1 item, or inventing another T2 item instead. There are very few T2 items for which the BPO is actually more valuable in terms of income than using that same slot for something else. And those BPOs that are the ones for which the market is almost entirely supplied by invention. Yes, the prices are going higher the last months... After all I see them as collectors items
Lukriss Lone Star Academy	Posted - 2009.05.31 20:20:00 - [34] You guys forget 1 important thing. LOGISTICS For a 0.0 alliance buying a BPO and building from it than it is to export datacores and decryptors out to deep 0.0, and remember in theory BPOs are free since you can always sell them back (assuming the price stays the same, but given the current inflation in the eveconomy it's actually an investement giving you money, even if you don't use the BPO, same thing could be said for some of the highend deadspace modules. Originally by: Akita T PROBLEM : Basement is overflowing with water from a ruptured pipe. NORMAL solution: fix the pipe, clean up the water. CCP solution: install a pump to drain water from the base
destinationunreachable Hello Kitty Fanclub	Posted - 2009.05.31 21:08:00 - [35] no, it's easier to buy the stuff in Jita. Few 0.0 based alliances have actually a sufficient industrial production (outside of capitals).
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.05.31 22:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Lukriss You guys forget 1 important thing. LOGISTICS For a 0.0 alliance buying a BPO and building from it than it is to export datacores and decryptors out to deep 0.0, and remember in theory BPOs are free since you can always sell them back (assuming the price stays the same, but given the current inflation in the eveconomy it's actually an investement giving you money, even if you don't use the BPO, same thing could be said for some of the highend deadspace modules. It's actually easier for most 0.0 alliances to buy the built ships and jump that into their space than it is to have all the materials built. There are quite a few kills in the past of BoB freighters carrying a load of T1 precursors for T2 ships. Logistics these days are ridiculously easy. Using Jump freighters you can undock from Jita and be deep in 0.0 in under 5 minutes, using cyno generators and jump bridges to safely move billions of isk of supplies. Putting the BPO in 0.0 greatly ups the risk you will lose access to it. And like many deadspace modules, they are subject to huge devaluations when various modules or ships are nerfed, or simply the supply increases.
Bigpimping Pimp Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.01 20:08:00 - [37] Out of interest, in the initial lottery, what numbers of each type of bpo were given out? ie 10 for each ammo type, 5 for each ship... etc? ________________________________________ He who pimps, is God...
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.06.02 08:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Bigpimping Out of interest, in the initial lottery, what numbers of each type of bpo were given out? ie 10 for each ammo type, 5 for each ship... etc? Not sure exactly about intially, but in the end it is approx 80 of each ammo type 32 of each ship, 40 of each mod, at least. There are more than 10,000 T2 BPOs. A very few may have been destroyed, a few more are probably on banned/inactive accounts. But mostly they will all be in the hands of active players, though some are simply unprofitable to build from the BPO itself, because the item that it produces sucks. There are thousands of T2 BPOs out there much cheaper than T1 capital blueprints.
Jurinak	Posted - 2009.06.02 11:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Ellena Manim Huuun I'm surprised no one mentioned that before. But t2 BPO can be sold back, effectively negating the investment make in the 1st place. It's just like buying a faction tower. Cost a truck load of cash, save you you in daily operation, and once your done, you can sell it back. Not to mention it appear t2 BPO price can only go up... people like you make stockexchange crashes possible "hey the market can only growth and if I buy for 100 I can sell for 200 for sure" and then boooomm ups noone wants this stuff anymore.... and the market will collapse sooner or later. You can buy this stuff but keep an eye on it not to be the last idiot with the expensive pennystuff in your hands.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.02 12:10:00 - [40] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 02/06/2009 12:11:18 Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Your whole post is based on an assumption that whoever has T2 BPO ( BPOS ) is leaving the rest of his slots idle = fail. Incapable to think = fail. With the isk you don't spend buyng the BPO (or you get selling it) you can: 1) pay the GTC for a horde of datacore farming alts 2) train them to invent (using the datacores they farm) 3) train them to build T2 from the invented BPC End result, you get more return from the same starting sum. To add to that, a BPO is inflexible, you can only build the item your BPO allow you to build. Market of your module/ship is full? You can still build only that item. Your item/module give less return than building other stuff? Your BPO still allow you to build only that module. The only advantage is that you have to do less clicks to use it. Not a bad advantage, but to feel it pay back for the isk a T2 BPO cost you should have isk pouring out of your ears.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.02 12:21:00 - [41] Originally by: Reachok Originally by: destinationunreachable Originally by: Reachok Originally by: Caldari 5 Just as a curiosity question, can you create T2 BPCs from a T2 BPO through the normal copy procedures? Yes. So after a few weeks to maybe a couple months for ship BPO's, you'd have enough max run T2 BPC's to fill that imaginary build slot quota. And these max run BPC's would have the same attributes as the original at substantial savings over the invented BPC of the same type. Copying a T2 BPO requires smoe additional components however. It is actually, that copying a BPO (T1 or T2) takes twice as much time as producing... So a BPC is (basically) valued twice the profit per item per run ... why would anyone do that ? Hmmmm.... okay, that first little bit of ME and PE research followed by say 10 copies of of max run T2 BPO's does take time. Then, I fill up my 10 build slots with T2 BPC's, whilst making 10 more max run T2 BPC's of said BPO. I'm sure at some point I will catch up to the time lost initially and surpass that time lost because I'm steadily making copies AND producing the T2 module. Wrong (but fell free to try it). Copy time > build time. When your build time (Barrage M BPO with 10 PE research) is 8 hours 53 minutes and copy time is 16 hours 40 minutes there is no way to get more isk copying the BPO than building directly from it.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.06.02 13:06:00 - [42] Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 02/06/2009 13:07:02 Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 02/06/2009 12:11:18 Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Your whole post is based on an assumption that whoever has T2 BPO ( BPOS ) is leaving the rest of his slots idle = fail. Incapable to think = fail. With the isk you don't spend buyng the BPO (or you get selling it) you can: 1) pay the GTC for a horde of datacore farming alts 2) train them to invent (using the datacores they farm) 3) train them to build T2 from the invented BPC End result, you get more return from the same starting sum. To add to that, a BPO is inflexible, you can only build the item your BPO allow you to build. Market of your module/ship is full? You can still build only that item. Your item/module give less return than building other stuff? Your BPO still allow you to build only that module. The only advantage is that you have to do less clicks to use it. Not a bad advantage, but to feel it pay back for the isk a T2 BPO cost you should have isk pouring out of your ears. So , you are TRYING to be smart heh? The whole OP post about T2 BPO was about its high price of them so that it is useless to aquire them , then i have a question did orginnaly poeple pay billions for those blueprints or did they have recieved them from reaserch agents ????. You cant commprehend that having T2 BPO is better than not having it = fail. Investing in to get it is an another matter. Besides i have better things to do with my life than manage horde of alts .
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.06.02 14:48:00 - [43] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 So , you are TRYING to be smart heh? Slightly better than trying to be dumb, I would argue. Quote: The whole OP post about T2 BPO was about its high price of them so that it is useless to aquire them , then i have a question did orginnaly poeple pay billions for those blueprints or did they have recieved them from reaserch agents ????. You cant commprehend that having T2 BPO is better than not having it = fail. Investing in to get it is an another matter. Ok, so, you state two mutually exclusive viewpoints here. a) That the price is too high ie, they're not worth buying, because the payback is so small b) That having it, rather than having the isk for it (ie it's worth buying one) is better than selling one for the isk. Every single T2 BPO out there has either been purchased for the amount of isk they're going for on the market, or the person owning it has at least exchanged the potential isk they would get from selling it, for that BPO. They are one and the same. Once people actually 'got' the BPs in the first lottery, that was it, damage done. Since then they have been passed onto other people who invested in them, just like anyone else who starts playing today can do. Either you think that is worth doing (and thus should), or you don't (and thus they're not better to own than not own). The reason the prices are so high, is not because of their utility value, but because of their fixed supply. Owning one is a gamble, that it will retain its worth, in face of potential nerfs to that item, replacement of that item with a better item, removal of the BPOs etc. On the other hand, pretty much all T1 BPOs if researched will sell for above the NPC price, and you gain more from some of those than the best T2 BPOs in existence (which was not the case pre-invention mind).
Lillith Darkmoore Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.02 15:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 So , you are TRYING to be smart heh? Slightly better than trying to be dumb, I would argue. Quote: The whole OP post about T2 BPO was about its high price of them so that it is useless to aquire them , then i have a question did orginnaly poeple pay billions for those blueprints or did they have recieved them from reaserch agents ????. You cant commprehend that having T2 BPO is better than not having it = fail. Investing in to get it is an another matter. Ok, so, you state two mutually exclusive viewpoints here. a) That the price is too high ie, they're not worth buying, because the payback is so small b) That having it, rather than having the isk for it (ie it's worth buying one) is better than selling one for the isk. Every single T2 BPO out there has either been purchased for the amount of isk they're going for on the market, or the person owning it has at least exchanged the potential isk they would get from selling it, for that BPO. They are one and the same. Once people actually 'got' the BPs in the first lottery, that was it, damage done. Since then they have been passed onto other people who invested in them, just like anyone else who starts playing today can do. Either you think that is worth doing (and thus should), or you don't (and thus they're not better to own than not own). The reason the prices are so high, is not because of their utility value, but because of their fixed supply. Owning one is a gamble, that it will retain its worth, in face of potential nerfs to that item, replacement of that item with a better item, removal of the BPOs etc. On the other hand, pretty much all T1 BPOs if researched will sell for above the NPC price, and you gain more from some of those than the best T2 BPOs in existence (which was not the case pre-invention mind). well, i would say that most of what you said is correct. yes, they are overpriced imo. but they are also worth the isk. a T2 bpo is not for the average industrialist though. if i grab an anathema bpo for 1.5-2bil, i have the means to produce a fleet of these guys. i, personally wont break even until after i produce about 300 of them, assuming ME0. whether or not they are good to own depends on your ability to utilize them. and at that point, the gamble is no longer in owning one. when you can propperly utilize one you already have enough funds that the future bpo nerfs arent going to be as terrible. and even then, you can just prevent this my making a hundred copies for a rainy day. at that stage of wealth, isk is no obstacle. T2 bpos are more of a way for the obnoxiously rich to maintain that status.
Pnandor	Posted - 2009.06.02 18:32:00 - [45] EVE did nerf the R&D lottery but did them nerf the T2 BPO for those who won it ?
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.06.03 00:47:00 - [46] Originally by: Lillith Darkmoore yes, they are overpriced imo. but they are also worth the isk. These two statements are mutually exclusive. They can not be both overpriced AND worth the isk. Quote: if i grab an anathema bpo for 1.5-2bil If you find one for this I will buy it for more :p They are way more expensive than this, more like 15-20bil. You could make 300 in under 2 months, the general profit most T2 BPOs sell for is between 4 and 10 years. There are some though that sell for more profit than they could ever possibly make ever, in the hope perhaps that the item they make gets boosted and that changed. Quote: you can just prevent this my making a hundred copies for a rainy day. There's something simple I think people need to understand. 1) You can not both copy a BPO and build off it at the same time 2) T2 BPOs take TWICE as long to make a 1 run copy as they do to build 1 item. So you more than halve your profit by making a copy (which takes materials to make) rather than just building the item.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.06.03 00:50:00 - [47] Originally by: Pnandor EVE did nerf the R&D lottery but did them nerf the T2 BPO for those who won it ? EVE didn't nerf the R&D lottery, they replaced it. They can't nerf the T2 BPOs for those that 'won' them, since most people have since sold them for isk, nerfing them would be nerfing them for the people that bought them, while the lottery winners sit on their piles of isk. Keep in mind that in most cases 'winning' the lottery involved years of building standing / having R&D agents in exchange for a BPO that is worth less now than the datacores they could have later got for that many RP.
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.03 01:18:00 - [48] Originally by: Reachok Originally by: destinationunreachable Originally by: Reachok Originally by: Caldari 5 Just as a curiosity question, can you create T2 BPCs from a T2 BPO through the normal copy procedures? Yes. So after a few weeks to maybe a couple months for ship BPO's, you'd have enough max run T2 BPC's to fill that imaginary build slot quota. And these max run BPC's would have the same attributes as the original at substantial savings over the invented BPC of the same type. Copying a T2 BPO requires smoe additional components however. It is actually, that copying a BPO (T1 or T2) takes twice as much time as producing... So a BPC is (basically) valued twice the profit per item per run ... why would anyone do that ? Hmmmm.... okay, that first little bit of ME and PE research followed by say 10 copies of of max run T2 BPO's does take time. Then, I fill up my 10 build slots with T2 BPC's, whilst making 10 more max run T2 BPC's of said BPO. I'm sure at some point I will catch up to the time lost initially and surpass that time lost because I'm steadily making copies AND producing the T2 module. lolno However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
Tydius Nolad	Posted - 2009.06.03 05:19:00 - [49] T2 BPOs are better than invention. You build from them cheaper and faster than you can from invented BPCs. The only limiting factor in being a builder is build slots. If you can fill up all your build slots with t2 production from T2 BPOs, you'll make more isk than if you did the same using invented BPCs. What T2 invention did was effectively cap the price of a T2 item and profits that a T2 BPO holder could generate. If a T2 item gets too expensive now, inventors will see profit in it and start inventing it. That increases supply and drives down the price. If you're sitting on 100 billion isk, what do you do with it? Buying a T2 BPO is probably the safest way to invest that isk. There's a good chance it will hold its value (or even increase in value) and you can generate a lot of isk from it at the same time. The BPO is a hedge against inflation as well. If prices go up, the value of the BPO goes up as well.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.03 06:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Tydius Nolad If you're sitting on 100 billion isk, what do you do with it? Yes, you're sitting on 100 billion isk, i.e. if you have 100 billion isk and no better way to make the produce more isk. At that point the choice could be having them sit there or having them invested in a BPO and getting a small return while imobilizing that capital the same. But if you have the time or willingness to invest that capital another way (for example a horde of inventing alts) you will get a better return.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.06.03 08:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Tydius Nolad T2 BPOs are better than invention. You build from them cheaper and faster than you can from invented BPCs. The only limiting factor in being a builder is build slots. If you can fill up all your build slots with t2 production from T2 BPOs, you'll make more isk than if you did the same using invented BPCs. Of course GTCs can be bought for isk, thus so can build slots, the isk invested into a T2 BPO could be invested into new characters with more build slots, which overall could make far more isk / hr even though it would take more build slots. And then, you realise there are other non-T2 things that make more isk when you start talking about that amount of isk.
easei Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.06.03 17:14:00 - [52] Wasn't there a statistic that CCP released which said something like 50% of all T2 BPO's were owned by the same 7 people. Auctions you see on the forums for T2 BPO's is a trap, the only reason someone would sell a T2 BPO now is because it no longer generates the same amount of isk that other forms of production can. The price of BPO's (as a whole neglecting FoTM's) will only drop over time, and when you consider that your putting up 5 years worth of profit to acquire a depreciating asset explain how you plan to make isk in the long term. The underlined bold part is key...
Songshi	Posted - 2009.06.03 18:35:00 - [53] Originally by: easei Wasn't there a statistic that CCP released which said something like 50% of all T2 BPO's were owned by the same 7 people. Auctions you see on the forums for T2 BPO's is a trap, the only reason someone would sell a T2 BPO now is because it no longer generates the same amount of isk that other forms of production can. The price of BPO's (as a whole neglecting FoTM's) will only drop over time, and when you consider that your putting up 5 years worth of profit to acquire a depreciating asset explain how you plan to make isk in the long term. The underlined bold part is key... Wouldn't someone sell a BPO if they needed ISK right now? I mean, people sell money-making assets in real life all the time because they money right now, even if the asset they are selling will produce profitably in the future. Aren't you forgetting about inflation too? If I buy a BPO at price X, that money is protected from inflation. The products I manufacture from the BPO will be priced taking inflation in to account. So will the BPO when/if I sell it. But my capital investment in the BPO itself is proofed against inflation.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.06.03 22:58:00 - [54] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 03/06/2009 23:00:56 Originally by: easei Wasn't there a statistic that CCP released which said something like 50% of all T2 BPO's were owned by the same 7 people.. No. For starters, those 7 people would need to have well over 700 build slots each, the amount of time that would take to manage would be insane. Originally by: easeithe only reason someone would sell a T2 BPO now is because it no longer generates the same amount of isk that other forms of production can. [/quote This is obviously why lots change hands. Almost none of the T2 BPOs even come close to many T1 manufacturing profits.
easei Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.06.04 00:52:00 - [55] Originally by: Lord Fitz No. For starters, those 7 people would need to have well over 700 build slots each, the amount of time that would take to manage would be insane. 7 people does not mean 7 accounts...
Hennry Fromer Gallente The Radiated Space Gerbils	Posted - 2009.06.04 03:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Reachok Hmmmm.... okay, that first little bit of ME and PE research followed by say 10 copies of of max run T2 BPO's does take time. Then, I fill up my 10 build slots with T2 BPC's, whilst making 10 more max run T2 BPC's of said BPO. I'm sure at some point I will catch up to the time lost initially and surpass that time lost because I'm steadily making copies AND producing the T2 module. Sounds logical but o so fail - the build requirements Vs. copy time would keep that from happening. To anyone that is convinced that tech2 BPO's are a total win - Make me an offer I have a tech 2 BPO, it even has research on it.
Loco Eve	Posted - 2009.06.04 08:29:00 - [57] Edited by: Loco Eve on 04/06/2009 08:30:20 just dec on the corps that have t2 bpo's. that will fix everything and really screw up the prices now. sorry!
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.06.04 13:14:00 - [58] Originally by: easei Originally by: Lord Fitz No. For starters, those 7 people would need to have well over 700 build slots each, the amount of time that would take to manage would be insane. 7 people does not mean 7 accounts... No, 7 people though does mean 7 people. Lets just leave it with the fact that 'a statistic that CCP released' is something you or someone else has made up on the spot.

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