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Le Dubor
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Posted - 2009.05.30 17:37:00 -
[31]
Level 4 missions should stay the way they are. As said anyone can do these if they choose to.
The pirates want easy kills, which is why they want the change.
Pirates can go after those who go to wormholes or level 5 missions, plus other pirates and pvpers.
Leave Level 4's alone, thanks.
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Amanda Mor
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Posted - 2009.05.30 17:56:00 -
[32]
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only source of NEW minerals and modules in the game from mission running and mining? Thus the only source of ISK in the game is ultimately from mining, looting/salvaging and bounties from lvl 4.
If that's the case, then moving lvl 4's to low sec and getting pirates to gank them is actually counter-productive to the pirates isn't it? Follow me on this - less mission running means less minerals and ISK, thus everything becomes more expensive, thus any extra ISK the pirates get from blowing up mission runners is pointless because they have to spend that much more for the ships and modules anyway.
Accept the fact that mission runners will always have more isk than pirates. And that it doesn't really matter anyway - seriously, why complain that someone has more isk than you? If they're mission runners (or miners), they use it all to upgrade their ships and bloat their wallet anyway; they aren't using it to gain some kind of advantage over pirates.
BTW, I do a bunch of both activities (PvP/piracy and mission running). If you're getting into pure piracy, then your wallet is always going to be a little thin, but there are plenty of targets out there without moving all the lvl 4's to lowsec.
Waiting for the uber-elite to come in and say they make 1 billion isk an hour as a pirate, and that if you can't make tons of isk at it then you fail
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2009.05.30 18:17:00 -
[33]
Lots of experts ITT, fer realz.
what the crap just happened? |
Wongdong
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.30 18:21:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Wongdong on 30/05/2009 18:23:46 i stopped reading after the 4th post b/c up until that point it's the same aguement...risk vs. reward. there is risk in lvl 4 missions...HIGH SEC. PIRATES(such as myself...under an alt) just scan and gank all the loot you can in high sec lvl 4 missions.since everyone is *****ing about where the money is then do something more than cry.yes,i am a carebear pirate.why?b/c that is where the money is currently.lo-sec is boring.0.0 is alliance.who cares if lvl4's are in high sec or low,i'll be there doing what i do best,working at getting carebears to give me ISK.if they don't,well they either fail a mish or get blown up.
HIGH SEC PIRATING,that is where the ISK is at currently for pirates.
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking |
Crais Reiter
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Posted - 2009.05.31 03:06:00 -
[35]
There is no reward for a missioner to go to low sec or a pirate to go to high sec and be a pirate. Its just same side of the coin, one doesn't want to risk anything. Grow some balls and gank AFK missioners or blow up their high isk rewarding ships, steal their loot and hope they aggress. |
Alura Vern
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Posted - 2009.05.31 15:05:00 -
[36]
With big rewards should come big risks......that is the bottom line however ppl always find ways to make big isk without much risk.......that is ok
now stop *****ing and go play eve
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.31 17:17:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Crais Reiter There is no reward for a missioner to go to low sec or a pirate to go to high sec and be a pirate. Its just same side of the coin, one doesn't want to risk anything. Grow some balls and gank AFK missioners or blow up their high isk rewarding ships, steal their loot and hope they aggress.
That's not correct, it's asymetrical.
The pirat goes high sec, brings 6 t1 fitted ravens, one scout and one loot guy and ganks cnrs/golems fitted with 2-6b worth of gear at gates. The insurance pays the ravens. Good revenue for one afternoon with fun and no risk other than to miss the oportunity to gank a victim because someone in the gang is afk for a minute to feed the parrot.
The missioner goes low sec, brings 7 friends in some kind of ships and.... hmm... what will he gank to get 2-6b in the same time with the same risk? Lvl5 missions? To bring the risk alone in line he would have to sit all the time docked in a station.
On the other side. If you move the lvl3/4 missions into low sec, then nobody will be so dumb to bring his multi billion gear there. It will be safe on some station in high sec. So there is no chance any more for the pirates to grab it. And that's not good too.
My position is: Bring much more better agents with much better missions into high sec. Let the carebears be rich and happy like hell. So the pirates can come arround and have fun too by ganking them or asking for a fee to avoid a wardec if they like.
Even allow carriers again to enter any mission they like. Carebears would feel better in such a virtually safe looking vehicle - while the pirates wouldnt have real trouble to 'earn' that big fish.
We need really rich carebears. Not the poor ones who bareley suck some low end ore from high sec belts. That's more fun for everybody.
Ppl love grinding? Let them grind.
Ppl love ganking? Let them gank.
So everybody gets happy.
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Akuma Kanya
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Posted - 2009.05.31 19:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ausser We need really rich carebears. Not the poor ones who bareley suck some low end ore from high sec belts. That's more fun for everybody.
Ppl love grinding? Let them grind.
Ppl love ganking? Let them gank.
So everybody gets happy.
As much as I disagree with hi-sec ganking and most pirates in general, I must say I agree with this. Besides, if there were no pirates, this game would be missing a large part of the excitement. I'll admit I'm a major carebear, but I'm starting to have a healthy enough wallet to start PVP, with some success (lucky ship picks mostly on my part).
I've gotten (decently) rich missioning an ratting. My good ships/modules feed the pirates when I decide to risk them in lowsec/0.0. Rich carebears = more/better modules for the pirates.
More ISK for carebears! :P
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Al Drevika
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Posted - 2009.06.01 18:26:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Mr Yarrr Edited by: Mr Yarrr on 30/05/2009 16:52:04
while some of this post is true, there isn't much risk camping a gate etc, but you've missed the whole point, there isn't much reward either !!! we could make so much more isk just running lvl 4s if we wanted, but we choose not to because missions are so boring, and camping gates, and suicide ganking give us something to do inbeetween proper pirating.
don't pin this crappy lvl4 wine stuff on pirates :P
Gee, I get bored grinding missions, too. And when I get bored, I go pirating in my PvP fit ship and alt.
You play your way, I'll play my way. Don't force me into PvP when I want to mission, and I won't ask for CCP to infest low-sec with Concord ships with 0.1 sec reaction time and 2000 dps and end your way of life.
(FYI, it's spelled "whine", D-Bag).
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Lrrp
Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.01 19:03:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Grez No. People want them moved so that the risk vs. rewards factor is more balanced.
At the moment people can just do level 4's AFK and rake in the ISK with little to no risk at all.
When you're making that kind of isk, you need to be factoring in risk, and the ratio is just too high in this case.
Level 4's really do need more risk, and the easiest way to do that is to move them into low sec.
Ok...go out and do Smash the Supplier afk. Go do the Serp side of WC afk. Heck...even go do Attack of the Drones afk and see what happens to your ship.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.06.01 22:03:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Risk vs Reward
Where's the risk in a PVP ship attacking a PVE ship? Where's the risk in wardecing industrial noobs? Where's the risk in scamming with an alt? Where's the risk in suiciding insured ships? Where's the risk in gatecamping? Where's the risk for being a pirate and yet having an alt to shop for you in hisec?
And before you tell me how there's this VERY IMPROBABLE CHANCE you can get a hotdrop on your gatecamp, remember that there's also an improbable chance a mission runner can lose his multi-billion-isk ship to NPCs.
'Risk vs reward' is just a punchline pirates use when it benefits them to use it.
it is actually pvp fit, and/or is a bait ship they are alts/friends of a much more experienced pvp corp. no one falls for your scam, and you lose the contract brokers fee (lol most unlikely) the target doesn't die, and you lose a few mil. bait ships, DHB Wildcat, and Falcons. your alt gets suicide ganked.
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Alt Tabbed
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Posted - 2009.06.01 22:10:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sabrage I think it's pretty obvious that people should not be allowed to play the game in a different way than I do and earn more money doing so.
This.
/thread
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Ydra Ko'Zyn
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Posted - 2009.06.02 22:49:00 -
[43]
All empire lvl4 agents should be on low sec borders. Missions that are given out that are in low sec should have there reward reflect where the mission is not where it is given out. If you wave a 9-10k lp mission in front of an empire mission runner and you might actually see them try low sec.
Add an extra standings gain for doing missions in low sec. Again not only the agents based in low sec, but for mission that are done in low sec.
Increase the timer on the bonus for low sec missions. Doing missions in low sec can take a lot more time especially when dealing with pirates.
Unless it's a delivery mission I should be able to communicate with my agent without docking as long as I'm in the same system. Give mission runners a way to avoid the obvious station camping.
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dankness420
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:11:00 -
[44]
MOVE COMBAT L4S TO LOWSEC
KEEP NONCOMBAT ONES IN EMPIRE
that way all of the true carebears can do L4s in peace
however all of the fighting missions should be in lowsec where they belong. you know with all of the danger, since you are fighting npc pirates or whatever.
and if you really are that scared of lowsec you could always do L3s in empire.
or just do courier or mining/industry L4S in empire space.
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Ydra Ko'Zyn
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:49:00 -
[45]
CCP will never nerf empire missions so hard -remove lvl4s completely from safe space- just to make the people that pvp happy.
I still have no idea why if I'm doing missions in a 0.5 border system that the missions I get given in low sec don't reflect a proper low sec mission. I used to run missions where pretty much every other mission sent me to low sec. I moved to another agent because the risks with jumping into low sec every 30-40 minutes vs. the reward wasn't there.
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Riset
Caldari Eve Mining Emporium
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Posted - 2009.06.03 00:23:00 -
[46]
So what was the point of this post? There are already level 4 agents in low sec already. By my count there are 26+ level 4 agents in Genesis region and I haven't counted those in other low sec regions but I can only guess that there are an equal amount between low sec and high sec in each region for pirates to use for isk or to probe out and steal wrecks/kill mission runners in.
Is this is just a risk/reward whine? I do believe there is enough risk/reward no matter what security the system is. And if pirates are wanting more risk then go out to 0.0 and try to pvp there for a while. Riset CEO - Galactic Mining Guild |
Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.03 00:27:00 -
[47]
Risk VS Reward. Not protect the care bears...Lvl 4s and above should all be in low sec and 0.0 but they are to afraid you (carebears) would all quit. I say boost level 4 and 5 rewards and LP and move them out to low sec and 0.0. All pirate factions should have level 5s in 0.0
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Ydra Ko'Zyn
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Posted - 2009.06.03 00:52:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Shepard Book Risk VS Reward. Not protect the care bears...Lvl 4s and above should all be in low sec and 0.0 but they are to afraid you (carebears) would all quit. I say boost level 4 and 5 rewards and LP and move them out to low sec and 0.0. All pirate factions should have level 5s in 0.0
incorrect. there needs to be a balance between all of the above. Risk v Reward v Protect playerbase.
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Kranko
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Posted - 2009.06.03 01:01:00 -
[49]
Risk vs Reward. Awesome argument.
If lvl 4 combat missions are moved to low-sec, this is what needs to happen:
Attacking a player within a dead space mission area results in concord. Gates, stations and regular space areas as usual, but inside a mission area, concord will come along. I'd expect slower response time, and even the chance to escape on the part of the 'pirate', but it would add a bit of spice.
Risk vs reward, after all.
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Ydra Ko'Zyn
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Posted - 2009.06.03 01:16:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Ydra Ko''Zyn on 03/06/2009 01:17:30 nah that's just silly. concord has no place in low sec.
just make it so npcs will target the last person to come in a site. so if you just started a big lvl4 and have all aggro the aggro will swap over to the next ship that enters the site. the solves a couple of things and actually evens things out. pirates want to gank pve fitted ships in pvp ships. well they'll have to take on npcs with either a pvp ship or a fit for pve and the npc damage type.
this would also solve the problem of people salvaging your mission in a covert ops ship - they would still be able to do it, but would have to do it in a proper ship or wait until you've killed everything.
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.03 05:10:00 -
[51]
ITT 'l33t PvP' players demand things get harder for younger chars so they have a larger base of weaker chars to pick on and lord their l33tizm over for even longer periods of time.
To which I say...nerf PvP! Make it all consentual! Make all mining and manufacturing and trading done from a universal point-and-click interface with no ferrying of goods and materials at all! Remove all 0.0 sov mechanics! Make all exploration sites and wormholes publically viewable and warpable on the overview!
In short, let's ruin the playstyles which don't affect me as I don't partake in them directly!
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Dr Silkworth
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Posted - 2009.06.03 05:57:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Dr Silkworth on 03/06/2009 05:57:26 Make it so running missions raises a systems security rating and then we will push the pirate sc****out of mission heaven and into lower and lower high risk no reward space. The scurvy dogs will get their due at the point of our long projetiling scabbards. Eden will be save and the river styx will flo with their tears, blood and podslime.
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killerbitsch
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Posted - 2009.06.03 07:37:00 -
[53]
Originally by: dankness420 MOVE COMBAT L4S TO LOWSEC
KEEP NONCOMBAT ONES IN EMPIRE
that way all of the true carebears can do L4s in peace
however all of the fighting missions should be in lowsec where they belong. you know with all of the danger, since you are fighting npc pirates or whatever.
and if you really are that scared of lowsec you could always do L3s in empire.
or just do courier or mining/industry L4S in empire space.
you totally fail at being sane or at least speaking logical. if fighting belongs to lo-sec, then why leave l3s in hisec?
anyway. since l4 missions require fittings that are uncapable of doing any pvp, moving hisec agents to losec would only cause people stop missioning, or would make them founding corps/alliances to break losec pirate groups (but really break them) to secure their missioning areas.
this latter would be nice though. :)
since usual carebears have a way lot more ISK then usual pirates with some time no pirates would live in losec.
to be true any l4 missions showing to losec i simply decline, not because i'm afraid to pvp, but i fit a ship whether to run mission OR to do some pvp pewpew. you cannot fit for both thus you'll fail at one for sure.
and if we're talking of risk vs reward: the pirate who jumps on a mission runner has no risk, while reward can be pretty nice (player ship drop, mission loot/salvage), with no risk at all. any missioner ship can be ****ed up with a jammer and a scrambler, you don't even have to shoot, or the drones only, the rest will be done by the NPC ships.
on monday i met my first hisec pirate in dodixie (i don't run mission there, but my mission took me there), and found that next time any of my missions takes me there, i'll simply decline, because in the end it isn't worth it. ofcourse i won't fight him back even if he's flashing red, as a mission runner ship is so vulnerable to any pvp acts. and those 15minutes is so short for going home, changing ship, trying to find him, and face him (and his corp).
summing up: noone would benefit from moving l4s to losec.
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Ydra Ko'Zyn
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Posted - 2009.06.03 07:37:00 -
[54]
why not actually post something constructive vs. lowering the iq level of this thread even more?
the thing that I find funny is you've got two extremes and nobody is thinking about what sits in the middle.
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Mystafyre
Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2009.06.03 07:50:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rukia KuchikiSan Edited by: Rukia KuchikiSan on 30/05/2009 09:53:06
It's very simple, i just realized that:
1. People asking for level 4 agents to be moved are pirates, they want a source of money; this is not acceptable with your lifestyle, you choose to be a pirate? Suffer the consequences and stop crying.
2. Why should agents deal with pirates?
3. There are level 4 agents in 0.0 already, go there.
Start crying (flaming) now.
Hahahaha, this made my day!
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jrambox
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Posted - 2009.06.03 08:49:00 -
[56]
this ****ing risk vs. reward nonsense again...
Endless supply of mission.. oh get a clue.
In missions you are exchanging you time to isk and there isn't an endless supply of time.
****ing hypocritical pirates just want easy targets to lowsec.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.03 09:45:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 03/06/2009 09:47:42 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 03/06/2009 09:46:20
Quote:
If you wave a 9-10k lp mission in front of an empire mission runner and you might actually see them try low sec.
My corpie has done this right yesterday and he got 12k LP.
So, why despite this, they still won't come to low sec?
Quote:
Add an extra standings gain for doing missions in low sec. Again not only the agents based in low sec, but for mission that are done in low sec
FW agents give massive (really) LP and massive standings.
So, why despite this, they still won't come to low sec?
Quote:
Risk vs Reward. Awesome argument.
If lvl 4 combat missions are moved to low-sec, this is what needs to happen:
Attacking a player within a dead space mission area results in concord. Gates, stations and regular space areas as usual, but inside a mission area, concord will come along. I'd expect slower response time, and even the chance to escape on the part of the 'pirate', but it would add a bit of spice.
Risk vs reward, after all
This looks like a good idea! Or am I missing something obvious?
Quote:
anyway. since l4 missions require fittings that are uncapable of doing any pvp, moving hisec agents to losec would only cause people stop missioning, or would make them founding corps/alliances to break losec pirate groups (but really break them) to secure their missioning areas
The founding of corps to break pirates groups should be the game "suggested" way to progress a character past the training grounds (aka high sec) to "maturity". What I found odd is how "carebear" people not only refuse risk, but also any form of sociality. They want to be the safe 1 man army in a "no safety nets" game which happens to also be a "Massively Multiplayer" game.
Isn't this a contradiction in terms?
Quote:
to be true any l4 missions showing to losec i simply decline, not because i'm afraid to pvp, but i fit a ship whether to run mission OR to do some pvp pewpew. you cannot fit for both thus you'll fail at one for sure
I beg to differ. You are not afraid to PvP, you are afraid to be social (or butt ugly selfish "ALL FOR ME AND ONLY ME!"). We do L4 missions the whole day around our low-sec home (we are not pirates, just a FW corp) in PvE fitted ships including marauders. We do them in 2-3 persons. The vastly increased LP and rewards help easing the splitting weight. We can do this and we are no hero, why you don't?
Quote:
on monday i met my first hisec pirate in dodixie (i don't run mission there, but my mission took me there), and found that next time any of my missions takes me there, i'll simply decline, because in the end it isn't worth it. ofcourse i won't fight him back even if he's flashing red, as a mission runner ship is so vulnerable to any pvp acts. and those 15minutes is so short for going home, changing ship, trying to find him, and face him (and his corp).
Dodixie is where reward meets risk and is possibly one of the few places where the substantial L4 income (for the difficulty) meets some risk. I would not be surprised if CCP made it possible for gankers to succesfully intrude more and more high sec missions. Think about how a stealth nerf it is, expecially against those China farmers who dumped mining and switching into the next farmable income.
Quote:
In missions you are exchanging you time to isk and there isn't an endless supply of time.
In IRL you also exchange your time for currency aka hourly wage. In IRL there are the poor lowest rank sods who work hard and risky for a pittance (in EvE it'd be miners expecially in low sec), there are an huge majority taking little to no risk for a modest wage (in EvE, sub capital builders without a POS), there's a meager minority taking lots of risk for massive wages (in EvE it'd be traders, expecially those who ferry their inventory).
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.03 09:47:00 -
[58]
Quote:
In missions you are exchanging you time to isk and there isn't an endless supply of time.
In IRL you also exchange your time for currency aka hourly wage. In IRL there are the poor lowest rank sods who work hard and risky for a pittance (in EvE it'd be miners), there are an huge majority taking little to no risk for a modest wage (in EvE, sub capital builders without a POS), there's a meager minority taking lots of risk for massive wages (in EvE it'd be traders, expecially those who ferry their inventory). Where do L4 missioneers go in comparison to IRL jobs? For sure not in the first or second category... nor in the third.
Paper, rock, scissors? No, Mushrooms. Like solo TBC warlocks, warriors + resto druids or rogues + priests were in WoW imho.
Quote:
****ing hypocritical pirates just want easy targets to lowsec.
95% of the pirates can't care the less for L4 nerfing. They live perfectly well and fat as is. So well that if you want free T2 fittings for your ships like me, you have just to go in Rancer (when pirates are not ganking ;P) and loot the wrecks. The nice stuff they leave behind is an indicator of how good they are doing already.
The remaining 5% of pirates, are those who will high sec gank you and they also are fine with L4 as is. They still kill you.
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dannyBOy16437
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Posted - 2009.06.03 11:08:00 -
[59]
As a completely neutral entity (A trader)
I think that lvl 4 missions should be in low sec.
Why?
Because it populates low sec, and all the reasons that pirates have mentioned. There should be a risk vs reward, lvl 4 missioning generates waaay to much isk with very little risk, and if you want a truly risk free proffesion, its trading (But it requires brains, not F1, F2, F3, etc)
Even then, moving lvl 4s into lowsec would mean that supplying goods to the MR is more risky, and even I have to admit trading needs a bit more risk.
In game reason?
Because there are not many 10+ Battleship pirate fleets with lots and lots and lots of backup in highsec anymore, lvl 4 agents have moved to lowsec because thats where all the priates seem to be around
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Matrix Skye
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.03 11:40:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Matrix Skye Risk vs Reward
Where's the risk in a PVP ship attacking a PVE ship? Where's the risk in wardecing industrial noobs? Where's the risk in scamming with an alt? Where's the risk in suiciding insured ships? Where's the risk in gatecamping? Where's the risk for being a pirate and yet having an alt to shop for you in hisec?
And before you tell me how there's this VERY IMPROBABLE CHANCE you can get a hotdrop on your gatecamp, remember that there's also an improbable chance a mission runner can lose his multi-billion-isk ship to NPCs.
'Risk vs reward' is just a punchline pirates use when it benefits them to use it.
it is actually pvp fit, and/or is a bait ship they are alts/friends of a much more experienced pvp corp. no one falls for your scam, and you lose the contract brokers fee (lol most unlikely) the target doesn't die, and you lose a few mil. bait ships, DHB Wildcat, and Falcons. your alt gets suicide ganked.
Right, and these are soooo highly likely in happening, right? In that case let's add the one we're discussing. Mission-running in high sec: Risks Could lose your billion-isk setup to NPCs. Could get suicide ganked. Could get ninja looted and/or salvaged. If ninja-looted, could get your ship blown up. Can get wardecd.
Now please explain how this is any different from the highly unlikelyevents from the above riskless professions .
"But but... The others are lulz and make me laffz... But I hate mission runners..." Amirite?
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