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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.05 08:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Faffywaffy
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: In my experience rockets are very good.
To put it blunt, your experience is wrong.
To put it bluntly, take a look at my corporation's killboard. The only interceptor I'm hesitant to engage in a rocket crow is a pulse crusader.
So spelling *****, what exactly is the problem? You happily attack all but one intie, and you still want to get your ship boosted? Forget it.
(btw getting kills in it is not the same as being fine, rockets just need to be boosted a bit in dps). |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.06.05 12:56:00 -
[32]
Rockets are pretty crappy in general. But they work on a Crow because:
1. 50% damage bonus. 2. Crow has a slot available for web. 3. Rocket Crow's main opponents - other interceptors - normally don't fit ABs (uhoh dual-prop Taranis).
That's the theory. I have virtually no TQ interceptor experience. But after reading Faffy's comments on Rocket Crow a while back, I tried it on Sisi and found that MWD-web-scrambler Taranises were easy kills. Things didn't work out too good against rail Taranises or Crusaders though, and dual-prop Taranis would also be trickier, but I'm a complete noob at flying interceptors. |
Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 17:27:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Faffywaffy
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: In my experience rockets are very good.
To put it blunt, your experience is wrong.
To put it bluntly, take a look at my corporation's killboard. The only interceptor I'm hesitant to engage in a rocket crow is a pulse crusader.
So spelling *****, what exactly is the problem? You happily attack all but one intie, and you still want to get your ship boosted? Forget it.
(btw getting kills in it is not the same as being fine, rockets just need to be boosted a bit in dps).
The rocket crow would likely be winning those fights if it had half the EHP it has now. There are other fights it participates in where the EHP is more important.
Again, guys, I'm not calling for a huge increase in EHP -- just a small one, as currently, the crow has unproportionately less EHP than all other interceptors.
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.05 17:37:00 -
[34]
Crows seem awfully damned effective to me. I had a pair of them rip me a new one in a Vexor the other day. High speeds mitigating the ability to do more than ding their shields once in a dozen shots, while they pelted the everloving crap out of me while taking turns maintaining the warp scramble.
Its not what you fit, its how you fly. The two that bagged me were very good at it. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 17:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Janu Hull Crows seem awfully damned effective to me. I had a pair of them rip me a new one in a Vexor the other day. High speeds mitigating the ability to do more than ding their shields once in a dozen shots, while they pelted the everloving crap out of me while taking turns maintaining the warp scramble.
Its not what you fit, its how you fly. The two that bagged me were very good at it.
It is how you fit and how you fly. You should have had a medium neut on the Vexor, at which point they couldn't scramble (2pt) you, and you could have easily tanked, reapproached the gate and jumped out.
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.06.05 18:51:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 05/06/2009 18:52:55 Your problem here is that you're assuming that Caldari 'ceptors follow the traditional roles of 'dogfighter' and 'tackler'.
They don't.
The Crow is much better suited as a long-range tackler. It has a huge lock range, good speed, low EHP, the ability to fit long range weapons (the longest of any 'ceptor with its bonuses) without gimping its fit, and a damage bonus for those weapons. It lacks the bonus to tackle range, but 24km (or more if you overheat or go faction) is still viable for most uses.
The Raptor is much better suited as a close-in brawler. It lacks the ability to effectively fit long range weapons without gumping its fit so it's limited to 75mm rails or blasters, its tackle bonus means that it can scram targets out to and beyond normal web range, its the slowest of all 'ceptors so you can justify not speed-fitting it, and it has more base EHP than the Crow.
Once you overcome the role perception that the tackle bonus (or lack thereof) tend to produce, you'll see that the Crow and Raptor are actually perfectly well balanced relative to each other. That doesn't mean that the Raptor isn't still pretty crappy compared to other close-in 'ceptors.
EDIT:
Originally by: Faffywaffy
It is how you fit and how you fly. You should have had a medium neut on the Vexor, at which point they couldn't scramble (2pt) you, and you could have easily tanked, reapproached the gate and jumped out.
That goes for any 'ceptor, not just the Crow. Not sure if you were implying otherwise or not, just clarifying. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 19:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 05/06/2009 18:52:55 Your problem here is that you're assuming that Caldari 'ceptors follow the traditional roles of 'dogfighter' and 'tackler'.
They don't.
The Crow is much better suited as a long-range tackler. It has a huge lock range, good speed, low EHP, the ability to fit long range weapons (the longest of any 'ceptor with its bonuses) without gimping its fit, and a damage bonus for those weapons. It lacks the bonus to tackle range, but 24km (or more if you overheat or go faction) is still viable for most uses.
The Raptor is much better suited as a close-in brawler. It lacks the ability to effectively fit long range weapons without gumping its fit so it's limited to 75mm rails or blasters, its tackle bonus means that it can scram targets out to and beyond normal web range, its the slowest of all 'ceptors so you can justify not speed-fitting it, and it has more base EHP than the Crow.
Once you overcome the role perception that the tackle bonus (or lack thereof) tend to produce, you'll see that the Crow and Raptor are actually perfectly well balanced relative to each other. That doesn't mean that the Raptor isn't still pretty crappy compared to other close-in 'ceptors.
I already explained why the missile crow is pathetic in my opinion, but even if you choose to look at it like a long range "tackler" inty, it still has significantly less EHP than the other "tackler" interceptors. |
Kyguard
Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.06.05 19:04:00 -
[38]
This is not really a thread on balance.
This is you trying to brag about your kills. Gtfo |
Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.06.05 19:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Faffywaffy
in my opinion
There's your problem. Nobody else here seems to agree with your opinion.
Originally by: Faffywaffy
even if you choose to look at it like a long range "tackler" inty, it still has significantly less EHP than the other "tackler" interceptors.
In general, the Crow matches or outperforms other "tackle" 'ceptors in speed, lock range, damage, and primary weapon range. Giving up a little EHP and 4-6km tackle range more than makes up for that.
Mind you I'm a Crow pilot too so seeing its EHP boosted would benefit me in the long run, and even I don't think it needs a buff. |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.06.05 20:19:00 -
[40]
Out of all the Tech II Caldari ships, the crow is the one least in need of boosting.
The raptor is crap. The hawk is the worst AF in the game, Harpy has typical AF issues but is good for its class.
I honestly don't see a big problem with the crow at all.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.06.05 20:29:00 -
[41]
lol at rocket crows
You'll die to the first T1 frig you run into that has any idea what he's doing. A scrammed/webbed crow is a dead crow.
A crow is supposed to wear down opponents while zooming around not getting hit by anything. Other 'ceptors (like the Taranis) are much, much, MUCH better at operating up close. |
Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 21:00:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kyguard This is not really a thread on balance.
This is you trying to brag about your kills. Gtfo
Ooh, another one of those arguments that just win!
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Originally by: Faffywaffy
in my opinion
There's your problem. Nobody else here seems to agree with your opinion.
That's not a problem. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean you're wrong. If your opinions have been tested against theirs and proved correct, well then...
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Originally by: Faffywaffy
even if you choose to look at it like a long range "tackler" inty, it still has significantly less EHP than the other "tackler" interceptors.
In general, the Crow matches or outperforms other "tackle" 'ceptors in speed, lock range, damage, and primary weapon range. Giving up a little EHP and 4-6km tackle range more than makes up for that.
It doesn't outperform them in the one area where a long range tackler is needed! That is, tackling from long range (outside heavy neut). Even at short range, I prefer the tackler inties to the missile crow - a stiletto with a faction scram can shut your MWD from 15km away and you can't do a thing to it.
Originally by: Ulstan Out of all the Tech II Caldari ships, the crow is the one least in need of boosting.
The raptor is crap. The hawk is the worst AF in the game, Harpy has typical AF issues but is good for its class.
I honestly don't see a big problem with the crow at all.
I agree with that assessment. But this thread is about the crow, and I didn't say there was a big problem with the crow; just a small disbalance in EHP.
Originally by: Kessiaan lol at rocket crows
You'll die to the first T1 frig you run into that has any idea what he's doing. A scrammed/webbed crow is a dead crow.
A crow is supposed to wear down opponents while zooming around not getting hit by anything. Other 'ceptors (like the Taranis) are much, much, MUCH better at operating up close.
I've killed a lot of taranises in my rocket crow, and died very few times, so you are simply wrong. |
Agdistisar Regus
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.06.06 06:11:00 -
[43]
Try this Crow fit and then come back and tell me it's still a bad Interceptor.
[Crow, Close Range] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Medium Shield Extender II Warp Scrambler II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I
4,6k EHP, 4.6km/s, Cap Stable |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.06 07:02:00 -
[44]
You need to look at all stats, not just one.
Every ship comparison will show a common theme; if you want a boost to the crow's hull, you're asking for a boost to every caldari ship's hull. The crow has greater stats in some other department while the other interceptors are all the lowest in one area; why not boost the X's Y?
Your logic makes no sense. Ship's base stats are balanced around the other races, why does the Crow need a boost in EHP? You never really give a reason other than "It's lower than the others". |
Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.06 07:51:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 06/06/2009 07:12:08 You need to look at all stats, not just one.
Every ship comparison will show a common theme; if you want a boost to the crow's hull, you're asking for a boost to every caldari ship's hull. The crow has greater stats in some other department while the other interceptors are all the lowest in one area; why not boost the X's Y?
Your logic makes no sense. Ship's base stats are balanced around the other races, why does the Crow need a boost in EHP? You never really give a reason other than "It's lower than the others".
Here are a few examples:
Crusader: 25km locking range Crow: 37.5km locking range Taranis: 25km locking range Claw: 21.88km locking range
Crusader: 469 base cap Crow: 391 base cap Taranis: 430 base cap Claw: 352 base cap
Crusader: 32m^2 base signature Crow: 36m^2 base signature Taranis: 36m^2 base signature Claw: 30m^2 base signature
Crusader: 1218.8 base scan resolution Crow: 1075 base scan resolution Taranis: 1100 base scan resolution Claw: 1250 base scan resolution
I could easily say the same thing about any of these comparisons (mostly the lock range; sucks to be the claw ), boost X's Y because it is lower than everyone else's Y.
You are right, except that the EHP difference stands out. The rest of the stats are reasonably balanced (the crow needs that range for missiles to work), but with EHP, the Taranis has 50% more of it than the crow. That is unbalanced in my opinion.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.06 08:09:00 -
[46]
Quote: I've killed a lot of taranises in my rocket crow, and died very few times, so you are simply wrong.
So basicly what you are saying is that the crow is the best damage intie out there (lol rockets), and only the crusader maybe is a match.
But we should boost the crow anyway?
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.06 08:26:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: I've killed a lot of taranises in my rocket crow, and died very few times, so you are simply wrong.
So basicly what you are saying is that the crow is the best damage intie out there (lol rockets), and only the crusader maybe is a match.
But we should boost the crow anyway?
There is more to EVE than 1v1 fights. Not a very realistic example, but while 1 (rocket) crow beats 1 (standard fit) taranis, 2 taranises annihilate 2 crows. |
Kazang
Gallente Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2009.06.06 08:42:00 -
[48]
You may have killed many taranis's in your rocket crow but i would wager that they were just bad pilots or fail fits. A rocket crow has more counters than a missile crow and in general is a poor fit, due mostly to the poor dps of rockets. Not becasue of low ehp.
Any t1 ab/scram frig will kill a rocket crow assuming equal skilled pilots, crows are not designed to operate in web range. Their stats reflect that.
The crow is fine, it has the lowest ehp becasue it has the longest range weapons of any interceptor, has no tracking issues, no cap issues and is fast enough to avoid 90& of dmg.
You have said yourself you have no problem killing other ceptors and spouting eft stats of unfitted ships is meaningless, becasue guess what? No one flies an unfitted ship!
Ships are balanced around fits and in game performance not unfitted base stats. |
Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.06 09:02:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kazang You may have killed many taranis's in your rocket crow but i would wager that they were just bad pilots or fail fits. A rocket crow has more counters than a missile crow and in general is a poor fit, due mostly to the poor dps of rockets. Not becasue of low ehp.
Any t1 ab/scram frig will kill a rocket crow assuming equal skilled pilots, crows are not designed to operate in web range. Their stats reflect that.
The crow is fine, it has the lowest ehp becasue it has the longest range weapons of any interceptor, has no tracking issues, no cap issues and is fast enough to avoid 90& of dmg.
You have said yourself you have no problem killing other ceptors and spouting eft stats of unfitted ships is meaningless, becasue guess what? No one flies an unfitted ship!
Ships are balanced around fits and in game performance not unfitted base stats.
You are right. I give up and am no longer going to fly rocket crows. |
Sonmi 456
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Posted - 2009.06.06 11:03:00 -
[50]
Actually...BOOST ROCKETS!
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Monticore D'Muertos
Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.06.06 13:22:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Monticore D''Muertos on 06/06/2009 13:22:47 3x rocket, 1x 125mm ac mwd/scrambler/med shield extender od/od(bcu)/mapc
there is your better effective ehp.
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.06 13:27:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Faffywaffy
Originally by: Janu Hull Crows seem awfully damned effective to me. I had a pair of them rip me a new one in a Vexor the other day. High speeds mitigating the ability to do more than ding their shields once in a dozen shots, while they pelted the everloving crap out of me while taking turns maintaining the warp scramble.
Its not what you fit, its how you fly. The two that bagged me were very good at it.
It is how you fit and how you fly. You should have had a medium neut on the Vexor, at which point they couldn't scramble (2pt) you, and you could have easily tanked, reapproached the gate and jumped out.
Concede on the neutralizer, its not something I consider usually. As I said, though, there were two. My initial attempt to reapproach and jump was stumped by one being on either side of the gate. I did tank them for quite a while before going down, it was just a very lopsided fight. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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