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Dougiebone
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Posted - 2009.06.05 04:57:00 -
[1]
Im sure this Idea has been placed up before but, I would like a Mini Frieghter to be availble.
Reason: To aid corporations / alliances that are willing to settle in wormholes in regards to emptying corporation hanger arrays. Frieghters cannot pass through the worm holes and orcas can only empty 150,000m3 a trip. I want a mini frieghter that is about the same as the orca but uses the ship hangers and everything as one large storage unit. about 300,000m3 or 400,000m3 would be great and make the mass allow the mini Frieghter the ablilty to travel 3-6 times through a new wormhole. Saves time for all the little haulers.
Same skill requirments to fly as a frieghter.
Any Ideas that dont involve "just use more people to haul"? |
Miilla
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Posted - 2009.06.05 10:20:00 -
[2]
You already have them.
They are called Transport ships.
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Hagir Bethul
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Posted - 2009.06.05 11:54:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Miilla You already have them.
They are called Transport ships.
Actually, that's not quite the same. Transport ships cannot carry packaged battleships for example. Also, I agree, that the Orca is not really a replacement for a small freighter, even though a lot of people are (ab)using it for that purpose. It is a mining command ship and as such reuires a completely different skills set than a real freighter. A small freighter with a capacity of around 150km3 that fits into the transport ship/freighter skill trees is still needed. If this cannot be done I demand that the Hulk requires at least one racial industrial ship skill to level V.
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Chi'kote
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Posted - 2009.06.05 12:50:00 -
[4]
I think a mini freighter that can haul 150k to 200k, is more agile than a freighter, and costs half as much as a current freighter would be a very nice option. I think 400k would be excessive. A mini freighter w/ a 150-200k hold alone would significantly diminish demand for the full freihgter, and allowing a 400k hold would destroy demand. Would practically just replace the freighter at that point. |
Lifelongnoob
Caldari Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.05 12:50:00 -
[5]
a t2 cargo optimiser rigged ite 5 can carry 1 packaged bs.
but what new need is not so much a mini freighter but rather a t2 large capacity hauler (maybe one that carries 100,000m3 with t1 cargo optimiser rigs and t2 cargo expanders) |
Hagir Bethul
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Posted - 2009.06.05 18:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lifelongnoob a t2 cargo optimiser rigged ite 5 can carry 1 packaged bs.
And comes with a pricetag similar to that of a freighter.
Originally by: Lifelongnoob
but what new need is not so much a mini freighter but rather a t2 large capacity hauler (maybe one that carries 100,000m3 with t1 cargo optimiser rigs and t2 cargo expanders)
I agree, that mini/small freighter may be bad naming when the role could be filled by some sort of xxl transport. Maybe a transport ship would be even better than a freighter-style ship since it would have fitting slots and thus be much more entertaining. Based on the current transport ship prices such an xxl transport ship would have a price of about 200-250 mill including rigs, which I find appropriate when taking freighter prices and capabilities into account. |
Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2009.06.05 18:18:00 -
[7]
Orcas. More versitile then frieghters and cheaper too. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Cain m
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.06.05 19:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jacob Mei Orcas. More versitile then frieghters and cheaper too.
And isn't meant as dedicated hauler. |
Hagir Bethul
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Posted - 2009.06.06 17:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cain m
Originally by: Jacob Mei Orcas. More versitile then frieghters and cheaper too.
And isn't meant as dedicated hauler.
Worse yet, the Orca requires the mining barge skill and the mining foreman skill to level V, which amounts to over a month of entirely useless training for a hauler. That's not cheap at all, especially since you'd need to go through all that hassle just because you want hauler that fits into the giant gap between the capacities of transport ships and freighters. |
Chomapuraku
Caldari Templar Republic
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Posted - 2009.06.06 21:05:00 -
[10]
i think there should be enough hauler classes that, when pimped out, give you every multiple of 10k m3, and freighter classes that give you every multiple of 100k m3, with agility and mass tweaked accordingly.
there should also be shuttles that give you every multiple of 10 m3, frigs that give you every multiple of 100 m3, and "mini-haulers" that give you every multiple of 1k m3
then, you could mix and match them. warp them to a gate, position them EXACTLY spaced apart from one another, warp them in a sequence so that they all land at the EXACT same time.
and if they don't land at the exact same, you have to leave the room, open and clse the door five times (and make sure it's five. you might have to re-do it a few times if you lose count), then put down a fresh paper sleeve on your chair before sitting back down to warp back and try again |
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Hagir Bethul
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Posted - 2009.06.07 09:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Chomapuraku i think there should be enough hauler classes that, when pimped out, give you every multiple of 10k m3, and freighter classes that give you every multiple of 100k m3, with agility and mass tweaked accordingly.
there should also be shuttles that give you every multiple of 10 m3, frigs that give you every multiple of 100 m3, and "mini-haulers" that give you every multiple of 1k m3
then, you could mix and match them. warp them to a gate, position them EXACTLY spaced apart from one another, warp them in a sequence so that they all land at the EXACT same time.
and if they don't land at the exact same, you have to leave the room, open and clse the door five times (and make sure it's five. you might have to re-do it a few times if you lose count), then put down a fresh paper sleeve on your chair before sitting back down to warp back and try again
Fail troll is fail. -1/10 |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.06.07 10:48:00 -
[12]
Well, there are those Convoys and Shuttles you see as wrecks often enough in missions. They're about the size of a Hyperion. Maybe they could be put into the game, considering they exist in the lore but just are not available to the public. Could be Interbus issued or something. -------- Ideas for: Mining
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Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.07 16:46:00 -
[13]
Supporting this topic (again), and will keep suporting this topic every time it pops up again!
kthxbai
/Signed
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Chomapuraku
Caldari Templar Republic
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Posted - 2009.06.07 20:19:00 -
[14]
/troll off
CCP should've set the limit for "mini freighters" at logistic-setup carriers and veldnaughts.
logistics has gone from a respectable challenge to far too easy with all the recent ships and content introductions.
i was quite surprised that ccp let freighters use jump bridges (much less even introduced them to begin with.) between jump bridges, the rorqual (aka, the mini freighter), jump freighters (mini freighter that jumps! 200+k m3. exactly what you're friggin asking for!), and the blockade runner becoming the black-ops hauler, moving a million m3 from jita to omist is as easy as moving it from jita to amarr.
i thought the cheap (500 mil), 10-second-warp orca was the one that would REALLY make everyone quit whining about mid-sized cargo runs. dedicated miners (exhumers, foreman/director skills) were 1 day away from driving the damn thing, and they still complained that "it takes too much training for using it as just a hauler."
TOUGH. we have a industrial ships to fill EVERY niche. you can use the orca as a zippy 120k m3 hauler, a mission looter, a belt surveyor, an enormous secure container that doesn't need to be anchored, a platform for carrying your damn barges, a wormhole mining support vessel, a ninja mining platform (small tower, mods, mining ships), a dedicated mining tank (so you can use covetors instead of hulks), a tower setup/fueling platform...
Originally by: Misanth Being nice doesn't pay off, you should stop listening to the right shoulder parrot. The left one is usually right.
so she shouldnt listen to the left one either? |
Chomapuraku
Caldari Templar Republic
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Posted - 2009.06.07 20:30:00 -
[15]
...and that's JUST the orca!
the rorqual, rigged and kitted, is basically a mini jump freighter that carries cargo, ships, and clones. this SHOULD have been the final giveaway to eve's logistics community. its high cost (~2 bil) and hefty skill tree (if you only want it for logistics) are the only things that really balance it.
the jump freighter was CCP caving in like an indulgent parent to its petulant playerbase. if you can fly a freighter and a carrier/dread, you can fly a jump freighter. it requires only buying one book and you're there. the only thing that balances it is the fact that building one is a ridiculously supply- and labor-intensive undertaking that costs you a few bil if you fail the invention job.
IMHO, freighters using jump bridges, the orca, and the jump freighters watered down the experience of the eve industrialist, turning 0.0 logistics into basically expensive high-sec logistics.
my idea to strike some kind of balance (short of removing the orca and JF, which is unfeasible) is to GREATLY increase the liquid O requirements (one freighter jump = bridge full of fuel) for freighters using jump bridges, or remove the ability for cap ships to use them altogether. i'd greatly increase the fuel consumption for jump freighters and make freighters 5 a requirement. maybe add exhumers 4 or 5 as a barrier to entry for the orca, so that you really have to dedicate your training and make sacrifices to use it.
Originally by: Misanth Being nice doesn't pay off, you should stop listening to the right shoulder parrot. The left one is usually right.
so she shouldnt listen to the left one either? |
Dougiebone
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Posted - 2009.06.08 03:34:00 -
[16]
Chomapuraku you missed my point.
Originally by: Dougiebone
To aid corporations / alliances that are willing to settle in wormholes in regards to emptying corporation hanger arrays. Frieghters cannot pass through the worm holes and orcas can only empty 150,000m3 a trip."?
I want something to unload corporation hanger arrays in wormholes. The orcas are not transports and have all the extra space for ships, I want a ship that looks like an orca but has been refitted for nothing but cargo.
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Lifelongnoob
Caldari Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.08 11:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Chomapuraku ...and that's JUST the orca!
the rorqual, rigged and kitted, is basically a mini jump freighter that carries cargo, ships, and clones. this SHOULD have been the final giveaway to eve's logistics community. its high cost (~2 bil) and hefty skill tree (if you only want it for logistics) are the only things that really balance it.
the jump freighter was CCP caving in like an indulgent parent to its petulant playerbase. if you can fly a freighter and a carrier/dread, you can fly a jump freighter. it requires only buying one book and you're there. the only thing that balances it is the fact that building one is a ridiculously supply- and labor-intensive undertaking that costs you a few bil if you fail the invention job.
IMHO, freighters using jump bridges, the orca, and the jump freighters watered down the experience of the eve industrialist, turning 0.0 logistics into basically expensive high-sec logistics.
my idea to strike some kind of balance (short of removing the orca and JF, which is unfeasible) is to GREATLY increase the liquid O requirements (one freighter jump = bridge full of fuel) for freighters using jump bridges, or remove the ability for cap ships to use them altogether. i'd greatly increase the fuel consumption for jump freighters and make freighters 5 a requirement. maybe add exhumers 4 or 5 as a barrier to entry for the orca, so that you really have to dedicate your training and make sacrifices to use it.
the rorqual also cannot enter high sec and costs in excess of 2 bil isk and 3 -4 months of training to use |
Lifelongnoob
Caldari Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.08 11:54:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Lifelongnoob on 08/06/2009 11:54:25 a large capacity hauler 100,000m3 with t1 cargo optimiser rigs and t2 expanders would fill the role. However it should require transport ship skill to level 5 to fly one. |
Taattii
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Posted - 2009.06.08 12:07:00 -
[19]
People use an Iteron V rigged and expanded or an Orca to haul. Who cares if that is not the main use, it does the job. Same as Hurricanes and Thrashers are great salvagers :) |
SentryRaven
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.08 12:35:00 -
[20]
Look here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=234417
Then here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=781074
And then finally what happened here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Small_freighters
It is very unlikely that there will be anything between the T1 Hauler, the Orca and the Freighter. I have been lobbying the idea since 2005 and all I got was a (lousy) Orca. :D Don't get your hopes up. |
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Chomapuraku
Caldari Templar Republic
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Posted - 2009.06.08 15:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dougiebone Chomapuraku you missed my point.
Originally by: Dougiebone
To aid corporations / alliances that are willing to settle in wormholes in regards to emptying corporation hanger arrays. Frieghters cannot pass through the worm holes and orcas can only empty 150,000m3 a trip."?
I want something to unload corporation hanger arrays in wormholes. The orcas are not transports and have all the extra space for ships, I want a ship that looks like an orca but has been refitted for nothing but cargo.
so what you're saying is you want something that has the cargo space of the jump freighter and the mass of the orca?
seriously, you missed my point. LARGE-SCALE LOGISTICS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY. logistics are a part of industry just like mining and BPs and building. every time you scale up, you run into problems of scale that make it necessary for you to figure out a new approach. for noobs, mining enough or missioning enough is the problem. for old-timers, acquiring or making the goods is no problem, but the logistics are.
that, and YOU HAVE A MINI FREIGHTER. it's called a jump freighter, a rorqual, or an orca. and you say "it takes too much training, and there's not enough cargo, and there's too much extra stuff i don't use, and it has too much mass."
it's a matter of trade-offs. you're not going to find the goldilocks ship that's "just right" that has just the right cargo space, a short training time that fits into your existing skilltree, a smaller pricetag, low mass, and good agility.
freighters have huge cargo, but take a long time to move around, can't be tanked, have a ton of mass, are expensive, can't work outside a pos or station, and require lots of training. the jump freighter moves much faster than the freighter, but is even more expensive and requires even more training. the rorqual can work outside of a pos, has big cargo, carries ships, carries clones, and compresses ore, but is expensive, can't enter high-sec and requires lots of training outside of the hauling skilltree. the orca is relatively fast, has a good size cargo capacity, carries ships, moves in high-sec, and is relatively cheap, but requires mining training and isn't as big as the others. |
Dougiebone
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Posted - 2009.06.08 17:01:00 -
[22]
Once again,
jump freighter and or rorqual DO NOT FIT THROUGH WORMHOLES and orcas ARE NOT HAULERS!.
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Chi'kote
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Posted - 2009.06.08 19:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Chomapuraku /troll off
i was quite surprised that ccp let freighters use jump bridges (much less even introduced them to begin with.) between jump bridges, the rorqual (aka, the mini freighter), jump freighters (mini freighter that jumps! 200+k m3. exactly what you're friggin asking for!), and the blockade runner becoming the black-ops hauler, moving a million m3 from jita to omist is as easy as moving it from jita to amarr.
i thought the cheap (500 mil), 10-second-warp orca was the one that would REALLY make everyone quit whining about mid-sized cargo runs. dedicated miners (exhumers, foreman/director skills) were 1 day away from driving the damn thing, and they still complained that "it takes too much training for using it as just a hauler."
The jump freighter is NOT the answer to a mini-freighter. Just because it holds the m3 being talked about (200k), doesn't mean it fits the role suggested (um, 4.5 BILLION isk as a cheaper alternative to a full sized freighter (7-800 mill) doesn't work). Jump freighter has its role, and that is low-sec / null-sec. The reduced cargo size is NOT to create a cheaper mini-freighter, but to balance the power added with the ability to jump.
As far as the orca, in case you don't realize this, but not every person that wants to use a freighter / mini-freighter is a dedicated MINER. Therefore, it IS a HUGE waste of training time for a TRADER or just someone hauling stuff around for their corp to train for an orca as a mini-freighter.
A mini-freighter would fill a nice role in eve, and I support its creation |
Chomapuraku
Caldari Templar Republic
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Posted - 2009.06.09 06:19:00 -
[24]
my point is that ease of logistics is something you sacrifice if you want to play in the big leagues. you either need more people/alts and low-sec (rorqual, jump freighter), or you make more trips.
logistics is a bottleneck in eve because this setup makes it almost mandatory to participate in a group if you're an industrialist. mini freighters would break this element of eve.
Originally by: Misanth Being nice doesn't pay off, you should stop listening to the right shoulder parrot. The left one is usually right.
so she shouldnt listen to the left one either? |
Dougiebone
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Chomapuraku my point is that ease of logistics is something you sacrifice if you want to play in the big leagues. you either need more people/alts and low-sec (rorqual, jump freighter), or you make more trips.quote]
Wormhole gives the small corporations/ alliances a chance to makes some decent isk. IT IS NOT THE BIG LEAGUES. LOW/NULL sec logistics isand all ways will be an entirly differnet issue. THIS IS WORMHOLE LOGISTICS IM TALKING ABOUT. CAP SHIPS CANNOT BE USED!!!!!!!!!!! Emptying a hanger arrary took 3hours and 45 minutes with 4 Bustards. THAT IS JUST WRONG! and the only options are either to take the time to empty the hanger with small transports or use an orca that only gets 3 jumps in and out before it crushes the wormhole entrance. Run that with having 7 hanger arrays and YOU HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM!
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Hawthorne Bogart
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Posted - 2009.06.11 03:18:00 -
[26]
(Why does this forum keep eating my posts?) Supported! Signed! Whatever is needed for this to work. I'm a Freighter pilot, and could probably train to fly jump freighters faster than it would take me to cross train an Orca. We need something in between transports and Freighters! |
Uronksur Suth
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.11 04:40:00 -
[27]
We already have Industrials, Transports, Freighters, Jump Freighters and the Orca.
The Orca (the only Cap Industrial at the moment) isn't supposed to be used as a hauler, but thats not a bad thing, just adapting it for another purpose.
So we've got 5 different classes for moving cargo already. 3 if you lump Jump Freighters with Freighters and exclude the Orca.
What more do you want?.... I doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Emptying all your corps stuff and moving it all to WH space and having it take up several hours seems perfectly reasonable.
And whats wrong with the "Just use more people to haul" solution? Its easy, it works and working together with lots of people is kinda the whole point of corps in EVE.... |
Dougiebone
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Posted - 2009.06.11 07:38:00 -
[28]
4 bustards taking a few hours to empty ONE hanger is annoying. >.>
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Alexander Vallen
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.14 02:26:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Alexander Vallen on 14/06/2009 02:29:22 So I was out missioning today and i spied perhaps the perfect model for use in our mini-freighter.
The ubiquitous Convoy Ship Wreck. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Convoy Ship Wreck Image (Hopefully that image isnt too big for the forum.)
Just think CCP, you'll barely have to do any work to add this to the game. The question of skills could be an issue though since as you see them everywhere they might not fit for each faction. Still, it's worth considering. |
Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.06.14 05:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dougiebone Once again,
jump freighter and or rorqual DO NOT FIT THROUGH WORMHOLES and orcas ARE NOT HAULERS!.
Wormhole logistics are not meant to be easy!
And the Orca is not a hauler? It has more cargo room than any other sub-capital. Of course it's a hauler. It wouldn't be much of a mining support ship if it couldn't haul. Surely your corp has at least 1 miner who can train the thing without much fuss.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
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