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Tobruk
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.07 02:32:00 -
[1]
Hello eve personalities,
I, like many of you, am tired of Motherships being crappy carriers. Their poor jump range, grossly insufficient hp, comparatively Tiny drone/SMA/Corphangers, and their inability to dock are driving me off the wall. The fact that they have been around for years and have only been nerfed is also pretty annoying.
So, I am making a thread about it. Many of you have probably read Vuk LauÆs thread on supercpas:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1052103
While I agree with many of his suggestions I feel that he is not specific enough on his recommendations and not detailed enough with his arguments. I also feel that, despite his suggestions, he does not offer a unique role for Motherships (something I will discuss at length later).
Throughout my argument for Mothership boosts I will use the NYX as my example and its carrier counter-part the thanatos. All build/resource/material examples will assume same lvl 0 skills
Proposal 1 - Boost Fuggin Jump range!
LetÆs begin by looking at the thanatos class carrier. It has a BASE jump range of 6.5 LY, with Jump Drive Calibration lvl 5 it has a range of 14.6LY
To build a thanatos it requires (with all base skills) 14 capital jumpdrives û that apporx 1LY per Jumpdrive with max skills
The thanatos also has a mass of 1.1 Bil Kilograms or in terms of jump range thatÆs a minimum of 169million KG/LY and maximum of 75Million KG/LY. Another way to look at it would be approx 75Million KG/Jump Drive to take it to its destination.
The NYX
Has a BASE jump range of 4LY, With JDC5 it has a range of 9LY.
To build a NYX it requires 270 jump drives û approx 67 jump drives to go 1 LY at JDC0 and 30JD to go 1 ly at JDClvl 5. That means that by component the thanatos is 30 times more efficient than the NYX û which is supposed to be
ôemblematic of the GallenteansÆ love for progress; packed to the ergonomic brim with the latest in cutting-edge advancementsö
But perhaps there is an explanation û does the NYX have 30 times more mass to propel through space?? No, the NYX has a mass of 1.6billon KG as compared to the thanatosÆ 1.1billion . So, the thanatos at JDC5 can propel 75million KG/Jump Drive but the vastly more expensive and ôcutting-edgeö NYX can only pull a measly 5million KG/ jump drive.
If we kept the ThanatosÆ jump drive efficiency and applied it to the NYX the NYX should be able to travel 270LY at JDC5. While this is not required the fact that a MS is so inferior to its carrier counterpart is unacceptable.
Solution:
Increase the NYXs Jump Range to be further than that of a carrier or reduce the number of Jump drives it takes to build a Mothership. Specifically give Motherships a BASE jump range of 8LY. That would give them an 18LY range at with max skills.
Proposal 2 û HP BUFF FOR GODS SAKES
Looking again to our thanatos and specifically its armor it requires 11 armor plates to build. It has an armor value (base) of 125000 points. Thast a ratio of 11363 points per plate.
A thanatos has a structure of 150000 and requires 14 capital construction components. Or a ratio of 10714 points for every one component
Its shield HP are 100000 and requires 8 capital shield emitters or a ratio of 12500 points for every one emitter
Now letÆs look at the NYX. Its base armor is 262500 points and it requires 203 armor plates to build. ThatÆs a ratio of 1293 points per plate. In Other Words the NYX is TEN TIMES less efficient than its carrier counterpart.
It has 300000 structure points and requires 270 components for construction. A ratio of 1100 points per component û again TEN TIMES worse than the thanatos
Its shield is 22500 points and it takes 135 sheild emitters to build û a ratio of 1666 points for every emitter. 7.8 times worse than the Thanatos.
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Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
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Tobruk
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.07 02:34:00 -
[2]
Solution:
Increase the NYXs HP proportionally to its components or reduce its component construction requirments:
2,625,000 Armor 3,000,000 Structure 1,755,000 Sheilds
At this point some of you are having a significant emotional event. THATÆS SO MANY F*&^ hit points etc. actually, itÆs not. A NYX costs at best 17bil isk and a thanatos costs at worst 1bil isk. So for the price of a NYX you could deploy 17 thanatos class carriers or a total of:
2,125,000 armor HP 2,550,000 structure 1,700,000 sheild
Not to mention 170 fighters with max skills or 8.5 times the damage of a NYX and their ability to spider tank each-other for a vastly superior tank as well.
Proposal 3 û Capacity yo! Boost that sh!t
The thanatos has a drone capacity of 100,000 M^3, A SMB 1million m^3, and a corp hanger of 10,000M^3. It takes 68 drone bays, 14 maint bays, and 14 corp hanger bays to build it respectively.
1.5k m^3 per Drone Bay 71k m^3 per Hanger Bay 714M^3 per Corp Hanger Bay
The NYX has a drone capacity 250000 m^3, A SMB of 2.5million M^3, and a corp hanger of 50,000 m^3. it takes 675 drone bays, 270 maint bays, and 270 corp hanger bays to build it respectively.
370m^3 per Drone Bay 9.2k M^3 per Hanger Bay 185 m^3 per Corp Hanger Bay
Once again we run into a serious imbalance.
Solution:
A ôcloseö to proportional increase in the values of all capacities.
1Mil M^3 Drone bay 10Mil M^3 SMA 200K M^3 Corp hanger
Again before you all have a meltdown let me put these values in perspective. This would mean a NYX could carry 200 fighters (or ten waves), 20 battleships, and 25 large towers.
17 thanatos class carriers can carry 340 fighters, 34 BS, 21 large towers.
Proposal 4 û Let me dock my **** or let me switch my mods without needing a carrier
I donÆt really understand the rational for not letting MS dock. They canÆt do anything that a carrier canÆt and they are hardly safer in 0.0 than a carrier.
Solution:
Let MS dock. If not than no ship with a Fitting service should have to use another ship to do its fitting û thatÆs just stupid. I mean youÆre within 5k of yourself right?
Many of you may argue that docking would make them invincible lowsec grapemobiles. I Agree. However, that is an issue for a different thread û a ship that is able to drag in lowsec (perhaps a role for the blackops BS).
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Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
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Tobruk
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.07 02:34:00 -
[3]
PART DUX û A NEW ROLE FOR MOTHERSHIPS
Now on to the next portion of this proposal - finding a unique role or assigning a unique ability to MS that makes them worth their price û not crappy ecm burst or lol clone vat bay. I have had many internal discussions with my friends about what this role should be.
At first I proposed a MS that could project a POS like forcefeild and act essentially as a mobile POS. The problem with this was a risk VS reward û with horrible jump range and weak shields the MS was at terrible risk for limited benefit.
I have also heard the idea of an area effect tank or a healing field. The problem with this is inevitably it will be overpowered and make fleet fights about who has more repping MS on the field.
The one idea I have heard that has appeal and makes sense to me is actually allowing ships to dock into the SMB and to allow them to travel inside the MS as it jumps. To me this is the true role of a Mother-Ship. So how would I Implement this unique MS ability.
I would introduce a skill and a module that allows for conversion of the SMB to a docking port. It would be a high slot item like the Doomsday Device and the jump bridge û Ship docking port that converts 20% of a Motherships SMB to a no service docking port.
Each level of the skill would allow you to fit one additional Ship Docking Port per level for a maximum of 5 (or 100% of your SMB as a docking port). Motherships would have an ability added that reduced the fitting cost of the Ship docking port. This would allow only the Mothership to fit this module and like its super capital counterpart (titans) it would have a unique module that didnÆt suck (LOL remote ecm burst).
Some of you are already saying- what about jump bridges! We already have **** like this! The difference is obvious of course. The Mothership must expose itself to on grid and actually travel to the system in question. Also, it allows the Mothership to support the ships that are on the field û but it has to sacrifice its support ability to carry more pilots. Also bridges are limited only by range and the amount of stront a titan can carry to do them. This would be limited by the SMA which I proposed be able to carry approx 20 BS.
Conclusion Whether or not you agree with any figures I have proposed here I think a general consensus has been reached that Motherships are horrible. I encourage CCP to consider what I have proposed but mostly I encourage them to take action in a timely manner, whatever that action may be. MS pilots have been hurt by game changes but have not been given compensation in any way. Lastly, thanks for taking the time to read this.
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Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
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Tobruk
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.07 02:35:00 -
[4]
reserved ----------------------------------------------
Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
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Tuis Ryche
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.07 03:29:00 -
[5]
I've floated the idea about carriers and motherships being able to transport and deploy piloted ships for awhile...only makes sense. More so for the moms, though. It would add a whole new component to a hot drop...a capital fleet that can bring its own support? Why hasn't this been done sooner? |
Bunyip
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.06.07 03:47:00 -
[6]
Hello Tobruk,
First off, about your number of components for effect (jump range, HP, etc), remember that 10x components doesn't equal 10x power. The Nyx is above the Thanatos, but much more expensive, making it a question of how much you want to do with it. It takes a LOT of energy to get it to jump, so the lesser range kind of makes sense.
That said, I do agree that Motherships should be mobile stations, and would love to see that, but it's just not in the code. CCP has explained that there are many mechanical problems with such a concept (what happens if the pilot logs off? Does the SMA lose it's docking ability and expel ships into space?), et al.
I agree that supercaps need some love, but right now it's hard to get it right. CCP does have a crack team looking at them, and I'm sure they'll find some abilities that aren't broken but are useful.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Zorok
LEGI0N International Blitzkrieg Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.06.07 04:27:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Bunyip Hello Tobruk,
That said, I do agree that Motherships should be mobile stations, and would love to see that, but it's just not in the code. CCP has explained that there are many mechanical problems with such a concept (what happens if the pilot logs off? Does the SMA lose it's docking ability and expel ships into space?), et al.
This issue can be fixed using the existing game logic to a certain degree. I can understand the issue with the docking issue. One idea that will probably better fit into CCP's current game design is to create capital ship tractor beams which will allow friendly ships in range to activate the tow line. The players can break the tow line at anytime using the stop ship command. When the MS jumps, all ships attached to the tow line will also go into jump. The ships being towed will not be able to be targeted by any hostile forces however the tow range will be 5000M or so. Also players being towed cannot engage any ships however they can be repaired by friendly players. Also the tow line will allow pilots to equip modules in space.
Using such a setup, this should give players as close to a docking mechanism as possible. |
Wolf Parade
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Posted - 2009.06.07 04:52:00 -
[8]
right on brother
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Solomon XI
The Estovakian Militia.
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Posted - 2009.06.07 05:27:00 -
[9]
An idea in the right direction.
/Signed + Supported.
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Zadook Nanoo
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Posted - 2009.06.07 06:26:00 -
[10]
signed and supported, all of your proposals Tobruk,
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2009.06.07 09:52:00 -
[11]
Interesting angles, I was brainstorming the other day with a few folks in a bit more conservative manner, and came up with this.
Mothership
Hitpoints; Structure X 1.25, Armor X 1.55, Shields X 1.55.
Corporate Hangar Capacity; 100.000 m3.
Ship Bay Capacity; 10.000.000 m3.
Jumprage; Base increase to 7.0 LY
SPA's; yes, 3.
Remote ECM Burst; option - base increase in range. option - scripting, to alternate between; - a focus against long range snipers,[/*] - a focus on disrupting the targeting of capital ships and - a focus on disrupting triage/siege processes of targeted ships.
Jump portal; yes, little guys need to be able to bite into big guys on every level and stab them in the back. It would be an option to restrict the use to mass, or even shipclass.
Proper Clone Vat bays; seriously, like a station service in space; an isk sink or even consumable item angle of a cloning license is not a wierd idea.
SPA (Special Purpose Array, a healthy feature. Based on Fuel Bay codebase)
Capacity; 250.000 m3, restricted to specific types of cargo.
Extended Access range: 15K base for Titan, 25K base if "mounted" on a Mothership.
Related skill bonus; 5K range bonus per level for racial Titan skill. 7.5K range bonus per level for racial carrier skill (since there is no Mothership skill, gets complicated).
Access; enabled/disabled via Ship Configuration Menu to Fleet members.
Configuration; restriction specified/enabled/disabled via Ship Configuration Menu.
Available options for configuration; Ammunition & Charges, Drones, Ship Equipment. |
Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.06.07 10:17:00 -
[12]
there does need to be a very significant increase in HP, these ships are simply no fun, and for all cost of building one it should be able to survive longer than 45 seconds when shot at by 10 dreads
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Jigoku Shiya
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Posted - 2009.06.07 11:43:00 -
[13]
This seems to make a lot of sense, supported. |
Slave 2739FKZ
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Posted - 2009.06.07 13:26:00 -
[14]
Well constructed thread, I'm not sure about the specialrole, I mean that's what it should be, but I'm not sure abotu the technalities as poitned out by others. But this is not the job of CSM/players, raise it (as well as the other Vuk lau thread about caps) and we will see, |
ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.06.07 13:57:00 -
[15]
would love a massive hp and tanking boost on mom's tbh |
Venomire
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.07 15:08:00 -
[16]
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.07 15:33:00 -
[17]
I support this, motherships are completely worthless right now. If they added to the remote ECM burst with scripts or something to make it perform other tasks, such as an area effect neut, a focused ability to prevent the target being remote repped or somethings like these that would make them much more useful in large fights. The ability to put up a force field like a pos, when activating a module would also be pretty useful (if you could shoot out of the field but not in). It could anchor the ms in space (much like a siege/triage module) and once broken, the ms would be stuck there defenseless. |
Porgy
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.07 15:48:00 -
[18]
I support all these changes but not before Tobruk loses his Nyx in some obscenely embarassing fashion. |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate Underworld Excavators
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Posted - 2009.06.07 16:04:00 -
[19]
I agree that jump-range and the Hp need an increase. As the ship does not surve any interesting purpose, at least let it jump far. I think that the idea about towing ships would be very interesting. However i do NOT think that area of effect repait module would be overpowered if you imply one/both of the folowing limitations/drawbacks: 1: It heals EVERYTHING in range, hostiles, drones, everything 2: They get nerfed as they stack, like the magstabs and other weapon upgrade, so using more then 3 stacked motherships would be near useless. 3: To avoind the repairs being overpowered for small ships, and being useless for battleships and capitals, we dive it dencity. Yes, dencity. It will work like missiles. For missile, damage inflicted depends on signiture radius. So the bigger the ship the more it get's repped. Description for the module: "Ejects a cloud of nanites that attach to and repair all nearby starships and drones. Due to size limitations it is impossible to inbuild Friend or Foe identification system into the nanites, and so even hostiles in the radius will be repaired."
More suggestions, using same principle: Area of effect ECCM, get's nerfed when several of them are stacked. Area of effect sensor boosters. AOE energy transfer. Remote volumetric energy neutroliser. Remote/aoe capacitor dampener- would reduce capacitor regeneration of everything in the area.
These modules should have large capacitor and/oe powergreed requirments, to avoid too many of them bein used on single ship All these modules affact both friendlies and hostiles. They would make motherships unique and usefull.
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Gonff MaeTeiff
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Posted - 2009.06.07 17:22:00 -
[20]
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Verys
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.07 18:39:00 -
[21]
Motherships really need an overhaul atm, the advantages which they used to have really been overtaken by new ships being introduced.
The anti-scram ability is as usefull as nothing atm due to almost everyone being able to fly heavy dictors or normal dictors.
The jump clone vat bay is useless as you migh just as well use a rorqual which is 15 times cheaper (and it has a longer jumprange).
Couple that with the small tank and you have an overpriced carrier. You could better use 16 carriers for the price of a mothership imho (it's not like your going to get the electronic warfare to disable a team like that, one of the apparent benefits of the mothership).
So in the end a BIG yes to change and i must say i like your ideas.
My own idea though on the mothership would be to change it into a advanced command ship kind of type ship which would include these things: - More jumprange than carriers - Lots more SMA space - Able to dock - Lose the jump clone vat bays - Less fighters (make the carriers more assault orientated) - Able to fit capital command mods (significant bonuses but only one can be activated per mothership per fleet as the total fleets bonuses) - More cargo space so it can carry multiple pos towers (say 3 large ones) - POS Fuel bay which allows tons of fuel to be taken with the mom - Enable it to use covert jump portals so that it can be used as an invasion spearhead. - Reduce the cost a little bit but not too much
What this would form is a ship in the form of a mobile invasion base which can be used to invade jammed systems and take a sizeable fleet with it. This would mean that you can plant a mobile invasion platform in a jammed system.
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Hyrieus
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.07 18:54:00 -
[22]
Nyx's are the worst motherships, sorry.
As for your changes they don't really fix anything. Motherships need to be able to move while in triage (otherwise carriers will always be better at repping), need to have 1/2 the cap charge for remote reps (so they can still rep and run a good tank), and need to receive 2 or 3 times as much remote repping so that primaring them in a group of carriers / motherships is a bad idea (instead of giving them a HP buff to make them more solo boats). I also think that they should be immune to dictor and hictor bubbles, but not to the focus points. This way if they're with a fleet the hictors have to decided between tackling the mothership or tackling the entire fleet.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.06.07 19:10:00 -
[23]
I think your arguments about stats per component are sort of doomed to failure - they're picked based on game balance, not flavour. That aside, I like most of the ideas here, both Tobruk's and Dragon Greg's. HP buffs, corp hangar increases, some method of doing something bridge-like(my preferred method is to have it carry pods with it through a cyno, so it can "bridge" a gang as long as that gang fits in the SMA), and other things of that type. Supported. |
Kralin Ignatov
Mentis Fidelis Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.07 19:55:00 -
[24]
hmmm.... yes |
Cissenei
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Posted - 2009.06.07 23:54:00 -
[25]
I don't fly supercaps myself but moms currently look like e-peen extensions similar to T3 cruisers. No, they're not bad but so completely not worth the expense, they're more akin to gold-plated mobile phones than useful tools. Sure, many people can afford it but WHY pay for something so marginally better from disposable carriers?
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Lachender Henker
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2009.06.08 11:43:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Lachender Henker on 08/06/2009 11:45:53 I heard some good ideas here, but some go a little bit too far. I fly a nyx for nearly 2 years now so i got some ideas myself:
In a bigge battle the whole bs/supportcrew crew is busy managing the overview,remote repping aligning and what not so they are not always controlling their drones propperly. A cool thing would be if the ms could take control over the drones in this squad (from every squadmember) in addition to his own. That way a ms gets a lot of more dps, but its not gonna be a single pownmobil if it flys around solo. So only a group makes it stronger. That should count for players + drones on grid and maybe take fighters out of this. For example 20 fighters from a nyx + 45 warrior t2. That would give the ms the chance to kill dictors and hictors on his own without yelling for rescure.
Another nice thing would be to increase the % of their abilitys. For example a nyx get 5% dmg bonus to drone dmg, it like to see it up to 7,5%
Also, some skills supporting fightes would be great or apply fighters for the existing ones, but i think that would be to much of a boost for fighters. Like create a skill "fighter specialisation" which boost their dmg,tracking,speed,hp by 1 % per level.
Ms do not need to dock, it would be easier i know, but its ok the way it is.
Last but not least. Increase their drone-control range, that they are able to use their standart drones in their whole lockrange. Oh and take cloak penalties away from them, so they can lock faster ;)
i guess these should be some "balanced" ideas to start with.
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111010110
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Posted - 2009.06.08 12:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lachender Henker
In a bigge battle the whole bs/supportcrew crew is busy managing the overview,remote repping aligning and what not so they are not always controlling their drones propperly. A cool thing would be if the ms could take control over the drones in this squad (from every squadmember) in addition to his own. That way a ms gets a lot of more dps, but its not gonna be a single pownmobil if it flys around solo. So only a group makes it stronger. That should count for players + drones on grid and maybe take fighters out of this. For example 20 fighters from a nyx + 45 warrior t2. That would give the ms the chance to kill dictors and hictors on his own without yelling for rescure.
That would turn a mothership into an anti support platform, and a team of motherships under a cyno jammer an extremely powerful anti support platform. Any hostiles would have to not just dodge a dozen titans, but any dictors they bring to creatively hamper titan deployments would be rendered, well, dead very quickly. That seems a bit ... over the top.
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Lachender Henker
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2009.06.08 21:05:00 -
[28]
As i said, you will need your squadmembers on grid and ofc outside the forcefield shields. So as soon as one guy out of his squad dies,warps, hides under the forcefield he looses the 5 drones instantly. So that means that ms allone won¦t work. They need to have their mates around themselves. I am actually not adding any damage at all, i just increase the efficency. If u still think that this is too much, u can also combine it with the drone control mods. So if u want to take over the drones of 2 of your mates you need to fit 1 drone control mod. Trust me every highslot from a ms is very important and is highly connected to their chance of getting out. Theres also plenty of ways to counter that feature aswell, for example: Bombs, Smartbombs etc.
And you bascily gave the ship a role " anti support plattform"; Works fine for me, compared to the amout of money you invest it is supposed to be giving out a lot of dps or highly increase the efficency of your gang/fleet.
Hicors were mentioned a lot in this topic aswell, so my ideas on this: the only defence against hictors with scripts are the neutz at the moment. Since they are too fast with mwd on, at least for fighters/heavys. So 1 hic already can get you into big trouble. So i¦d like to see the officer web range increased again also (30/25/20/15). That would make sure that they have a chance to kill the hictor. Hics usually have enough hp to survive fighters for 30 seconds to turn of script and get remote repped. |
Amasai
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Posted - 2009.06.09 04:51:00 -
[29]
I mostly agree with your argument, but not that they should dock on the other hand i think CCP should employ smaller, simpler but effectively significant changes first i think CCP already knows there screwd up right now, but doesnt know what to do about it yet
supported |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.06.09 05:33:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Yaay on 09/06/2009 05:35:40 While I agree with you whole heartedly on the issue and the fixes, namely because I've already proposed them, I cannot support it.
In recent discussions with people in the know, CCP has pretty much ruled out dockable ships. I don't understand their reasoning for it, I don't agree with them, and I certainly feel like it would be advantageous to move mass transport via super caps to this platform.
I think truthfully they are taking the easy way out on this issue to avoid people's inherent stupidity.
Sadly, player actions within larger ship platforms could be a gateway to some even more awesome things in the future, it's just not gonna happen. The devs are apparently not going to allow it.
Motherships will never have a sufficient role in game unless carriers as a whole get overhauled. Carriers certainly didn't match up to their hype before launch, and have since been a total letdown on performance for all too many reasons.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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