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nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
6
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Posted - 2012.05.15 07:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
ok first of before anyone try to jump on me i have 12mil sp in gunney and kind of new to missles. so as a noob to missles read this first then add your thoughts.
First off t2 ammo for guns now in most case are way better then faciton ammo dmg output even with the - that come with them now with that said DEV's when it came to t2 missles and t2 torps as a whole you drop the ball now. Here my thoughts on this.
T2 Rage torp in the market are under the heading Adv Anit-ship. Ok great for shoting players with well there not they suck and here why. Useing the inferno type for stats. T2 rage "anit-ship" torp. cal navy torp t2 javelin explosion radius 650m explosion radius 450m explosion radius 450m explosion velocity 61m/sec explosion velocity 71m/sec explosion velocity 71m/sec dmg 576 dmg 517 dmg 405
the above state are with out skills.
now just looking at the Damage stat's great t2 Rage way better when in fact way lower dmg giveing the other 2 stats. do to the fact t2 torp have around a 22% larger exp radius and slower exp velocity . when the torp hit the 22% of exp radius never touches the ship it hits and is wasted and given the exp velocity even a slow moveing bs takes much less dmg there allso. in testing a t2 launcher fit fleet typhoon with TP fireing on a Fleet Tempest just sitting there the t2s do about 25% to 30% less dmg then the faction torps. WTH ya that right 25% to 30% less dmg then faction though to use the t2 take more time to learn. Now for the really sad part the Javlein vs the same Fleet Tempest does more dmg then the Anti ship t2 Rage for the same reason and great range with the javelin witch i dont care about right now. So in ending t2 rage torps are not i repeat not Anit ship there Anit-Capital ship and maybe anit pos. oh and dont forget to add t2 rage adds to your sig rad as well 4.5% per launcher and the javelin slows you down.
I thinks it time you fix t2 misslies like you did t2 gun ammo CCP.
Ok iam done here let the rage posting start.
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Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
511
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Posted - 2012.05.15 07:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Use webs and target painters.
Don't shoot frigs. Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
Ares Tride
We killed Charlie the Unicorn
0
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Posted - 2012.05.15 07:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your grasp of written English is supreme. |
nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
6
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Posted - 2012.05.15 07:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Use webs and target painters.
Don't shoot frigs.
The test if you read witch is clear you did not the fleet tempest what was the target for the test was sitting still not moveing and was TP.
Did you even read?
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nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
6
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Posted - 2012.05.15 08:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ares Tride wrote:Your grasp of written English is supreme.
yes its but my typeing skills are very low. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
412
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Posted - 2012.05.15 08:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yes, Rage torps are stupid and useless Yes, missiles still having the huge penalties is ridiculous (and were so from day one) Yes, torpedos not able to hit even battleships for full damage without webber and painter is unbalanced
No, CCP doesn't acknowledge these problems .
There are some CCP devs that must really hate missiles. CCP Gnauton hated had problems to remember their names, so he removed most of them. CCP SoniClover thinks missiles are not underpowered enough and wants to make them even more like turrets by making the tracking disruptor the next 'mandatory choice' module. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
58
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Posted - 2012.05.15 09:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Yes, Rage torps are stupid and useless Yes, missiles still having the huge penalties is ridiculous (and were so from day one) Yes, torpedos not able to hit even battleships for full damage without webber and painter is unbalanced
No, CCP doesn't acknowledge these problems .
There are some CCP devs that must really hate missiles. CCP Gnauton hated had problems to remember their names, so he removed most of them. CCP SoniClover thinks missiles are not underpowered enough and wants to make them even more like turrets by making the tracking disruptor the next 'mandatory choice' module.
this....
all you have shown is half the reason why ravens are not fleet boats. Cruises are not omfg so much better....don't test that unless you really want too.
Torps only work on golems and bombers imo. Golem is tp bonused and can fit 2 tp nicely to lay some major paint down.
Stealth bombers work because of volume of volleys. 5+ bombers answer the call of a recon saying cyno lit to start the hot drop even with damage drop off the target they will hit is going to feel something. well that and the damage boost ofc to push it over normal launcher levels. |
nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
7
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Posted - 2012.05.15 09:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
the way iam looking at it one the market is misleading given rages are under heading "anti-ship" when clearly there not.
If you look at pvp what are most are gun kils well hell we know why now dont we. As a gunner i deside to try missles and hot damn i really know why i hated missles.
Cal ship are unless its the golem for missles or the rokh blaster or rail fit cal. ships are really lacking dps, Mind you i hate cal ships for that reason. Give me a blaster fit mega, auto fit tempest or even a auto fit phoon. I wasted 15 days training torp 5 for junk missles had i known how bad they were i would have never train this.
Sry Cal. you like to say min ships are rust and duct tape you may be right but my min or gal dps will kick your missles packng butt allways. Might have to train t2 lasers given missles sucks.
What you think ccp you made the Missiles look great but they STILL suck Minmatar RUST!!!!
So what the point of this post who know just my finds and my laughing as my guns go boom boom and my slight crying for wasteing time train for t2 missiles and yes i have trained t2 heavys as well my bad. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
992
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Posted - 2012.05.15 10:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Yes, Rage torps are stupid and useless Yes, missiles still having the huge penalties is ridiculous (and were so from day one) Yes, torpedos not able to hit even battleships for full damage without webber and painter is unbalanced
No, CCP doesn't acknowledge these problems . tl;dr: Torps are the new rockets. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
63
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Posted - 2012.05.15 11:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Yes, Rage torps are stupid and useless Yes, missiles still having the huge penalties is ridiculous (and were so from day one) Yes, torpedos not able to hit even battleships for full damage without webber and painter is unbalanced
No, CCP doesn't acknowledge these problems . tl;dr: Torps are the new rockets.
Were torpedoes ever anything but the biggest type of rockets? Now, I'm a Turret man at heart, not too familiar with missiles. But I thought it went:
Light Missile->Heavy Missile->Cruise Missile.
Rocket->Assault Missile->Torpedo.
...? |
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non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
779
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Posted - 2012.05.15 12:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Yes, Rage torps are stupid and useless Yes, missiles still having the huge penalties is ridiculous (and were so from day one) Yes, torpedos not able to hit even battleships for full damage without webber and painter is unbalanced
No, CCP doesn't acknowledge these problems . tl;dr: Torps are the new rockets. Were torpedoes ever anything but the biggest type of rockets? Now, I'm a Minmatar pilot at heart, not too familiar with missiles. But I thought it went: Light Missile->Heavy Missile->Cruise Missile. Rocket->Assault Missile->Torpedo. ...? That's pretty much it.
You should try a typhoon with t2 torps, it isn't too bad. |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
292
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Posted - 2012.05.15 12:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Yes, Rage torps are stupid and useless Yes, T2 missiles still having the huge penalties is ridiculous (and were so from day one) Yes, torpedos not able to hit even battleships for full damage without webber and painter is unbalanced
No, CCP doesn't acknowledge these problems .
There are some CCP devs that must really hate missiles. CCP Gnauton had problems remembering their names, so he removed most of them, without asking the community. CCP SoniClover thinks missiles are not underpowered enough and wants to make them even more like turrets by making the tracking disruptor the next 'mandatory choice' module.
So, tracking disruptors will work on HAMS, Torps, & Rockets. If this happens, it'll be a shame.
... |
stoicfaux
1062
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Posted - 2012.05.15 13:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
nat longshot wrote: in testing a t2 launcher fit fleet typhoon with TP fireing on a Fleet Tempest just sitting there the t2s do about 25% to 30% less dmg then the faction torps. WTH ya that right 25% to 30% less dmg then faction though to use the t2 take more time to learn.
Fleet Tempest sig: 340m TP: 30% increase to sig T2 Rage Explosion Radius: 650m.
(340 * 1.3) / 650 = 68.0% max damage.
CN Torp: with 450m Explosion Radius (340 * 1.3) / 450 = 98.2% max damage
Use more than one TP and/or a ship with a TP bonus. Otherwise, leave the Rage torps at home unless you're shooting at structures.
Eve missile damage formulas: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
219
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Posted - 2012.05.15 13:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Triple TP Golem with torps ftw!
I support the OP. Missiles suck, maybe the values change as well as the art assets next expansion/patch? EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
Alara IonStorm
2115
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Posted - 2012.05.15 13:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
That isn't the only problem Torps have.
Light Missiles 42 km Heavy Missiles 84km Cruise Missiles 168km
Rockets 10km HAM's. 20km Torpedo's 20km
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Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
265
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Posted - 2012.05.15 15:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Just to be clear, Missile damage reduction is a straight line process.
650 m Explosion radius means that if your Signature Radius is below 650 I am going to take penalty to damage and it's a direct percentage. A Tier 2 Battleship (apoc) only has 400 meter signature radius. So I am going to lose 250/650 or just over 38% of my damage even against an Apocalypse battleship, forget cruiser or a frigate. You can paint up an Apoc by 30% max so the unless I am fit with 3 target painters I won't hit the Apoc for full damage.
Cruise Missiles? T2 Target painter has 30km base Optimal. Every other ranged weapon can hit at 249 km. A Cruise Missile boat is obligated to gimp fit and get to no further than 70km to use a target painter. If they try and hit without the target painter? They will hit for around 20% of their damage value.
Yes, CCP you have turned large missiles to absolute pigshit and you know it. |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
58
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Posted - 2012.05.15 17:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Another reason why torps are especially singled out is; they count as unguided missiles.
Which means the skill "Guided missile precision" doesn't affect them ( sig radius ).
Like making "Motion prediction" not work for large guns |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
63
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Posted - 2012.05.15 17:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:That isn't the only problem Torps have.
Light Missiles 42 km Heavy Missiles 84km Cruise Missiles 168km
Rockets 10km HAM's. 20km Torpedo's 20km
The horrible scaling, it hurts my head! |
Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
512
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Posted - 2012.05.15 17:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:That isn't the only problem Torps have.
Light Missiles 42 km Heavy Missiles 84km Cruise Missiles 168km
Rockets 10km HAM's. 20km Torpedo's 20km
Good point, change HAM's to 15km and it will be fine. Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
stoicfaux
1062
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Posted - 2012.05.15 17:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:That isn't the only problem Torps have.
Light Missiles 42 km Heavy Missiles 84km Cruise Missiles 168km
Rockets 10km HAM's. 20km Torpedo's 20km
Pffffffff! Way to slant the numbers!
Light Missiles: 6.3 (raw dps) Heavy Missiles: 12.5 Cruise Missiles: 16.7
Rockets: 8.3 (raw dps) (31.7% more than light missiles) HAMs: 16.7 (33.6% more than heavy missiles) Torpedoes: 32.1 (92.2% more than cruise missiles)
Torpedoes buck the curve by trading range for raw DPS.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Ager Agemo
Radiant Technologies The House Of Cards.
70
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
even if torps had twice as much firepower, that is 100% useless if they cannot reach the target, exactly the very same problem with blasters and hence why they got buffed, a ship with 1200 DPS is a piece of **** if it can only deal damage at 20 kms and its targets are flying at 20.1 kms. (which is a way common scenario) |
stoicfaux
1062
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:even if torps had twice as much firepower, that is 100% useless if they cannot reach the target, exactly the very same problem with blasters and hence why they got buffed, a ship with 1200 DPS is a piece of **** if it can only deal damage at 20 kms and its targets are flying at 20.1 kms. (which is a way common scenario) By that logic, HAMs are also useless. You should use cruise missiles instead:
HAM standard - 16.7 raw dps faction - 19.2 javelin - 15.0 t2 rage - 21.3
Cruise: standard - 16.7 - raw dps faction - 19.2 precision - 14.4 fury - 21.3
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Ager Agemo
Radiant Technologies The House Of Cards.
70
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
which in the end just proves my point, hams tend to suck actually, that is, aside from being used on ships with insane range bonuses, like the cerb, tengu or alike, their damage is rather low actually, and the only reason they get their damage applied at least is because they are used on smaller ships that can actually move in close . |
Alara IonStorm
2116
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote: Pffffffff! Way to slant the numbers!
Torpedoes buck the curve by trading range for raw DPS.
And no one really uses either in PvP.
Not counting Bombers which have massive Torp bonuses.
stoicfaux wrote: By that logic, HAMs are also useless. You should use cruise missiles instead:
I think we have proven that neither is the correct answer to this equation. |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
32
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Trained t2 torpedoes year ago, used them for a month, switched back to "pre-balanced" (crappy?) blasters. Wasted SP.
Could be nice to see general missiles improvements (2-3x faster travel time, 1.2-2x lesser explosion radius - not only torpedoes. |
stoicfaux
1062
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:I think we have proven that neither is the correct answer to this equation. Understatement. I'm looking at a spreadsheet comparing the various missile attributes. It's... odd. Then there are the various ship bonuses to consider, as well as the general HP, sig size, and speed of the ship classes you're shooting at.
Might be time for a complete overhaul of missiles.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
15
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:nat longshot wrote: in testing a t2 launcher fit fleet typhoon with TP fireing on a Fleet Tempest just sitting there the t2s do about 25% to 30% less dmg then the faction torps. WTH ya that right 25% to 30% less dmg then faction though to use the t2 take more time to learn.
Fleet Tempest sig: 340m TP: 30% increase to sig T2 Rage Explosion Radius: 650m. (340 * 1.3) / 650 = 68.0% max damage. CN Torp: with 450m Explosion Radius (340 * 1.3) / 450 = 98.2% max damage Use more than one TP and/or a ship with a TP bonus. Otherwise, leave the Rage torps at home unless you're shooting at structures. Eve missile damage formulas: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280 IGÇÖm of the opinion that, the formula in the link should only be based on the second set of functions. I.e. the missile parameters (explosion velocity divided by explosion radius) which are a constant, multiplied by the target Sig/velocity term. In which case, as a target's velocity ---> 0, itGÇÖs always going to become a big number, such that the overall damage multiplier gets capped at 1GǪ
GǪi.e. regardless of how small you are, if you are stupid enough to stop completely, you 'splodeGǪ which would make sense if you think about the effect of taking a big missile right on the chin, but heyGǪ
Before someone jumps in and talks about explosion radius vs. ship size - think, in simple geometry terms, about just how much of the explosive force would be directed during a full contact (i.e. stationary target) hit.
(50% of the explosion, assuming it's just a dumb high explosive warhead with no directionality/shaped charge)
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
244
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Posted - 2012.05.15 19:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
The problem is that Torpedoes have the crutch of needing to be balanced not just against other missiles, but for use by stealth bombers. Any boost to them for use by battleships would overpower the SBs. So they suck for BSs.
SBs should never have been designed to use an existing missile type. This kind of interconnected dependency is a huge no-no in game-balance design, as it makes balancing impossible without jumping through ever-more complex hoops. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
244
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Posted - 2012.05.15 19:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Also, mandatory:
"Give me my black T2 Khanid Torpedo Battleship!!!" |
stoicfaux
1063
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Posted - 2012.05.15 19:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:IGÇÖm of the opinion that, the formula in the link should only be based on the second set of functions. I.e. the missile parameters (explosion velocity divided by explosion radius) which are a constant, multiplied by the target Sig/velocity term. In which case, as a target's velocity ---> 0, itGÇÖs always going to become a big number, such that the overall damage multiplier gets capped at 1GǪ From what I've seen, the second formula is already the main limiter of missile damage. The first formula is just there to make sure that large missiles don't do full damage against webbed/stationary frigates. Meaning, what you're asking for is already in place in practice.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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