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Izztyrr Maemtor
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.10 18:22:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? Indeed if there is nothing to be tweaked or fixed then why have you posted in support of a ship with a role bonus to salvaging? Obviously something is missing and/or wrong. That requires an unfortunate dialouge between the two biggest, mutual enemies of EVE: PvE and PvP players in order to reach a mutually agreeable solution.
I would also point out that if you need a CovOps ship (with or without rigs) to find a mission runner then you are doing it exceptionally wrong. A T1 frigate can do it just as fast if the person running the probes has sufficient skill and experience.
Ever seen a competent salvager at work? They use Coercers fitted with 4 salvage, 4 tractor beams, 4 cargo expander 2 and an after burner. They can loot and salvage at an amazing rate. They don't need ship bonuses because they've trained their salvaging skill to a high level. Just as anyone else can. So there is no need to make changes to any of the ships.
I don't need a covert ops frigate to find mission runner. I just happen to own one.
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.06.10 18:25:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it?
maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken??
The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage.
Aye, they should remove the flagging for looting as well.
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.06.10 18:28:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it?
maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken??
The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage.
To be honest my original take on the problem was a ninja has zero risk attached. As that's been corrected by someone in this very thread I have no real issue with ninja salvaging. I have issue with the attitude of some ninja's... but that person got what they deserved for it.
Now, as for the loot mechanics being broken I am seriously surprised nobody has started a multitude of threads about this because quite frankly... it is. I can enter a drone mission, fill my salvage destroyers hold with minerals worth far more than any bounty could ever be AND assuming I've not picked up an assistant along the way point a salvager at them and yoink out trit bars, melted cap banks and other highly valuable salvage. It smacks utterly of double bubble. Meanwhile I can go in to a Serpentis based mission, get the bounties which may or may not be all that good unless its Assault or Blockade which have silly amounts of NPC's in tem, yet the loot and salvage is utter rubbish.
CCP need to take a long hard look at it. And yes, this is a mission runner complaining that the missions, loot & salvage tables need a massive nerfbat on them.
And I do point out in FNA corp chat: The only thing which is reserved for you is a shiny new clone, a velator and 1 chunk of trit. Once it's explained to them and they're ready for the shock of a ninja appearing they're a-ok with it.
And yeah, I am poking Izzy with a stick. Everyone knows carebear ships are fueled by the gnashed teeth of PvPers  
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Chi'kote
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Posted - 2009.06.10 18:37:00 -
[94]
I'm fine w/ ninja-salvaging. As CCP says themselves, working as intended. Last time I checked, it seems to be centralized in the most popular of mission hubs (duh!). So, if you don't want to deal with it, just go mission somewhere else. There are more agents.
I missioned in Motsu for a while. Many ninja-salvagers. Had 2 missions salvaged from me, so I left for another agent. Never had it happen again. Either take the heat, or get out of the kitchen.
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.06.10 18:56:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Hariya
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it?
maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken??
The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage.
Aye, they should remove the flagging for looting as well.
Some and some. If you're in a fleet I think it should be surpressed for all members of the fleet regardless of NPC corp or not; yes you still get flagged in the starter corps regardless... irksome during training ops. But if you're not in a fleet with the killer, you should still get flagged. |
Verys
The Black Ops
Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.10 20:55:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Verys on 10/06/2009 20:56:37
Flagging of loot stealing is fine but flagging of salvaging would not. "Why?" do you ask? Well there is simple logic behind it.
Modules are worth money and since they are spoils of battle/war they belong to you and you get them. If someone steals a reward belonging to you it is theft.
Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless. It is trash, space dust, rubbish. It is a piece of floating debris. You can't do much with a wreck unless you have specialized equipment (the salvage module). This means that only this way a wreck is actually useful as you get salvage parts from salvaging from a wreck. It's just junk until somebody cleans it up, and nobody likes junk.
And all this getting angry about people coming in "cough" your "cough" mission and stealing space junk is beyond me. To me this seems like pure greed and that is if LVL 4's didn't already pay out enough at so little risk (yes little you can do them semi-afk or afk with a domi). The only time LVL 4's are hard is if you have just been flying a battleship and skipped the entire BC class or unless you stroll in the Extravaganza bonus room unprepared.
And as a closure you have the advantage as the wreck-maker. You have the tractor beam option so you can get those wrecks extra fast and a salvage slot on most ships if that isn't an advantage over a ninja salvager then I don't know what is.
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.06.10 21:08:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Verys
And all this getting angry about people coming in "cough" your "cough" mission.
It is worth keeping in mind that a great many people are not used to the concept of MMO's or they've played one with "private instancing" as opposed to EVE's oddbod "public instancing" system.
Yes I have had one new player wonder if the people in corp chat are, in fact, humans. And yes I've had to deal with more than one WoW player getting upset over the differences in instancing.
Now, perhaps as part of the improved new player experience we need to explain these differences somehow. Because quite frankly I can't probe down every non-ALT FNAer in order to demonstrate this. Remove the mindset of "my mission" and you also loose "my slavage". |
Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:03:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
It is worth keeping in mind that a great many people are not used to the concept of MMO's or they've played one with "private instancing" as opposed to EVE's oddbod "public instancing" system.
Yes I have had one new player wonder if the people in corp chat are, in fact, humans. And yes I've had to deal with more than one WoW player getting upset over the differences in instancing.
Now, perhaps as part of the improved new player experience we need to explain these differences somehow. Because quite frankly I can't probe down every non-ALT FNAer in order to demonstrate this. Remove the mindset of "my mission" and you also loose "my slavage".
All very true, but it is also worth remembering that this is Eve, not other MMOs. Ninja salvaging is a recognised game mechanic and those of us who do it will continue to do so until CCP say it's not possible.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:53:00 -
[99]
And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers. |
Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.06.11 02:58:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Vaneshi SnowCrash on 11/06/2009 03:02:12
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
It is worth keeping in mind that a great many people are not used to the concept of MMO's or they've played one with "private instancing" as opposed to EVE's oddbod "public instancing" system.
Yes I have had one new player wonder if the people in corp chat are, in fact, humans. And yes I've had to deal with more than one WoW player getting upset over the differences in instancing.
Now, perhaps as part of the improved new player experience we need to explain these differences somehow. Because quite frankly I can't probe down every non-ALT FNAer in order to demonstrate this. Remove the mindset of "my mission" and you also loose "my slavage".
All very true, but it is also worth remembering that this is Eve, not other MMOs. Ninja salvaging is a recognised game mechanic and those of us who do it will continue to do so until CCP say it's not possible.
Absolutley and knowing that their is a risk attached to doing so well, I'm good as well. Perhaps some mission injected in to the tutorials where a scripted NPC that appears as a player on the overview appears, does 'something' (salvage, kills a rat, whatever) with the message appearing in the window of "This can happen for real, this is what makes EVE different".
After all if the mechanic isn't broken, then it points to a lack of knowledge so it's the new player experience that's broken. Hopefully with that being the case it should be something quite simple for CCP to fix and the torrent of threads will, eventually, stop.
Originally by: Kel Nissa
And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers.
Actually only the 1.0 starter systems (1.0 sec rating, one station) are 100% safe zones. I'm assuming anyone caught Ninjaing an actual, real noob in their starter ship in such a system would have a GM getting the hump with them in short order; same as can flipping them. The second you go outside of that starter system... fair game.
High sec is supposed to be safer, not 100% safe. |
Uronksur Suth
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.11 03:19:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Kloiex
I want to talk about the very irritating ninja salvaging....
In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned, salvaging someones wrecks should be an illegal act in high sec most of the money from missions comes from salvaging and for someone to be able to take you're profit away from you without you being able to atleast blast them into space dust is very irritating.
Warning: It would be horrible to only give us kill right scause they could come in something better and bigger than us. Giving us kill rights would not stop this "bussiness" at all.
I don't see the problem really. If I warp into a belt, and see a bunch of npc wrecks floating around, why not? Of course, if the player is already there salvaging them, I wouldn't. But if they warp out leaving an unsalvaged and unlooted wreck just drifting there because they're too lazy or just don't care I don't see any reason not to.
If anything, property rights on wrecks should lapse after 10 minutes or log out. Its always irritating to be warned that you are technically stealing from someone who isn't even online.
And as for it being "horrible" to "only give us kill rights".... what more do you want?... Being allowed by the police to go vigilante and kill someone over loot theft is already absurd, if you think about it. This game is meant to be realistic, pirates and scammers exist and are endorsed by CCP.
If CCP allows large scale sabotage like what happened to the Ubiqua Seraph corp last year, 700 billion ISK in damage, they certainly aren't going to intervene here.
And finally, for everyone who seems to think High-sec is supposed to be all hugs and giggles: Your in SPACE. High-sec is "safe" only in comparison to low-sec.
And if I warp into a belt, see several wrecks with no one else around, I'll salvage them, and if the person with looting rights isn't in the system, I'll assume they don't care (correctly, since they just left it there) and go ahead and loot it.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.06.11 06:37:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Kel Nissa
And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers.
Protect to a degree. Hisec is not totally secure, or some sort of PvE zone, nor should it be. |
Uronksur Suth
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.11 06:57:00 -
[103]
Since everyone seems to agree, I'd like to point out that mission pay is relatively low because your the idea is probably that the loot and salvage is PART of your reward. Not to mention a lot of mission locations just happen to be surrounded by large Veldspar asteroids.
If you have an hour and a half to complete the mission with the time bonus, finish it in 5 minutes, then rush back and complete it without bothering to loot, salvage and possibly top off your cargohold with some ore, complaining that you aren't making much is a little absurd. 
That being said, CCP could bump up the payout. Slightly. |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.06.11 11:41:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Verys
Flagging of loot stealing is fine but flagging of salvaging would not. "Why?" do you ask? Well there is simple logic behind it.
Modules are worth money and since they are spoils of battle/war they belong to you and you get them. If someone steals a reward belonging to you it is theft.
they belong to them?? This is exactly the point I think is broken. You wrecked a ship but there is no reason for the ownership change, this logic does not apply for player ships but for NPC ships for some odd reason.
Originally by: Verys
Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless.
this is wrong, look into the marked, the stuff is worth a lot of ISK but this has nothing to do with its ownership, completely another question. The stuff may figure as a reward, however you have to grab it quickly before others do.
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Mohenna
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Posted - 2009.06.11 13:06:00 -
[105]
PRISM IS THE BEST
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Verys
The Black Ops
Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:06:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Verys
Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless.
this is wrong, look into the marked, the stuff is worth a lot of ISK but this has nothing to do with its ownership, completely another question. The stuff may figure as a reward, however you have to grab it quickly before others do.
Seriously learn to read my entire argument
Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless. It is trash, space dust, rubbish. It is a piece of floating debris. You can't do much with a wreck unless you have specialized equipment (the salvage module). This means that only this way a wreck is actually useful as you get salvage parts from salvaging from a wreck. It's just junk until somebody cleans it up, and nobody likes junk.
Which means they are worthless unless you take a specialized piece of machinery (salvager) and salvage these components, without this piece of machinery wrecks are useless. This ends up on being that it is a profession as you need special types of machinery and special types of skills.
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Since everyone seems to agree, I'd like to point out that mission pay is relatively low because your the idea is probably that the loot and salvage is PART of your reward. Not to mention a lot of mission locations just happen to be surrounded by large Veldspar asteroids.
If you have an hour and a half to complete the mission with the time bonus, finish it in 5 minutes, then rush back and complete it without bothering to loot, salvage and possibly top off your cargohold with some ore, complaining that you aren't making much is a little absurd.
That being said, CCP could bump up the payout. Slightly.
No the pay is fine as most of the cash either comes from bounties with most pirate mission or tags with faction navy missions. This way (withouth the picking up modules or salvaging) you can already make 15 mil in complete safety as you don't need to leave the starter corp to do them.
CCP should look into boosting low-sec more than boosting lvl 4's
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:27:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
Risk Vs Reward.
Rats can pop the mission runner.
If he falls asleep at the keyboard.
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
Ninja won't get agro'd by rats
Mission runner leaves mission and Super Ninja Dude gets the agro.
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
no kill rights for the mission runner
War dec the Super Ninja Dude. Most ninja salvagers I know belong to player corporation |
Verys
The Black Ops
Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.11 16:51:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
War dec the Super Ninja Dude. Most ninja salvagers I know belong to player corporation
But for some reason most ratters who whine about it don't because it provides them immunity to wardec's  |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.06.12 04:07:00 -
[109]
Yup, there certainly is no problem here. No one ever brings this topic up. Ever. |
Objulen
Caldari
Black Serpent Technologies
Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.12 06:31:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Objulen on 12/06/2009 06:31:03
To quote an old internet adage: less QQ, more pew pew.
Hire mercs and/or wardeck the guys doing it. Eve is built to allow for player hostilities, and the system already incorporates the appropriate answers. If you're not in a position to prevent said salvage ganking, then it's in your best interests to change that by joining a corporation that can, founding your own, avoiding the salvage gankers, and/or hiring guns to do the job for you. |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.06.12 10:34:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/06/2009 10:34:52
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Yup, there certainly is no problem here. No one ever brings this topic up. Ever.
sure, there is a problem. With the NPC loot mechanics.
The noobs think because the loot is "theirs", the salvage has to be also.
Fix the loot mechanics, like it is for player ships already(loot/salvage owhership kept by NPC), and the whine would stop.
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ninjaholic
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.06.12 12:46:00 -
[112]
This
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK?
It's not.
It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
Simple solution to the non-issue.
Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE".
EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around.
>>> SUPPORT EVE's OWN IN-GAME FIGHT RECORD TOOL! <<<
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Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.12 13:09:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Karentaki on 12/06/2009 13:12:03
Originally by: Kloiex
WAAARRRGGGBBLLLEEE!!!
Hi, please STFU. Thanks. I hear the people in here would like to hear about your problems though.
EDIT: To comply with the rules more, I wish to explain to you that this thread has been posted at least 100 times. In every case 90% of the playerbase have told you why you are idiots, but yet you continue to cry. Please just quit and give me your stuff. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.06.12 13:13:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Deryk Blacke
Salvaging introduced a new means of theft without repercussions.
The salvage however, is not yours until it is inside your cargohold. Thus, it is not theft. |
Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2009.06.13 01:19:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Kel Nissa
And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers.
No. It is safe space.Its controlled space. But it is not 100% safe for carebears / newcomer space. |
Khalia Nestune
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.06.22 07:34:00 -
[116]
Hi!
Thanks for reopening this topic every few days. It gives me and my corpmates great laughs to see people cry and whine about it, and then CCP to say "no problem here!".
This was at least 50% of why I became a ninja salvager.
Keep it comin'!
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.06.22 21:18:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/06/2009 10:34:52
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Yup, there certainly is no problem here. No one ever brings this topic up. Ever.
sure, there is a problem. With the NPC loot mechanics.
The noobs think because the loot is "theirs", the salvage has to be also.
Fix the loot mechanics, like it is for player ships already(loot/salvage owhership kept by NPC), and the whine would stop.
There is a thread somewhere, started by myself, about updating the NPE to remove this issue. You might want to bump it and/or add coments. |
Uronksur Suth
Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.06.22 21:44:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Khalia Nestune
Hi!
Thanks for reopening this topic every few days. It gives me and my corpmates great laughs to see people cry and whine about it, and then CCP to say "no problem here!".
This was at least 50% of why I became a ninja salvager.
Keep it comin'!
^^Hooray for thread necromancy.
I will agree that this thread is a hilarious whine though 
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Alderon Mizuchi
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.06.23 07:46:00 -
[119]
This thread makes me laugh.
The best part is that whenever a topic like this is made, I see more and more people start getting into ninja salvaging, which just makes the tears here all the more sweet.
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MacMasters
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Posted - 2009.06.23 10:01:00 -
[120]
good ninja salvaging guide. thanks |
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