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shadowgirl9
Get Out of Pod Free Card The Forgotten Templars
5
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Posted - 2012.05.15 22:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
ok in the last few days i have people keep saying i am wrong when it comes to spawning a static WH,
i have always belived that a static WH when collpases will instantly respawn, a few people have now been trying to tell me that the WH will not be initiated/ opened untill it is warped to, now i know the sites work like that is this the same for static WH's or are they just talking crap? |
Immortis Vexx
Lupus Draconis Dragehund
38
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Posted - 2012.05.15 22:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
shadowgirl9 wrote:ok in the last few days i have people keep saying i am wrong when it comes to spawning a static WH,
i have always belived that a static WH when collpases will instantly respawn, a few people have now been trying to tell me that the WH will not be initiated/ opened untill it is warped to, now i know the sites work like that is this the same for static WH's or are they just talking crap?
This seems to be one of those Schrodinger's cat sorta things. If you can scan it, you can warp to it. Thus, if you can scan it, the hole has to exist SOMEWHERE. A hole can just as easily be scanned from either side. You can have people come into your WH from a hole that you didn't scan so they CAN'T solely exist on one side or the other until opened. Right? Perhaps I am misunderstanding this whole thing....
Also, I don't have 100% proof that the sites don't "open" unless you warp to them but I am fairly certain that is false. We have had stuff despawn that we haven't touched in the same amount of time that "opened" sites have despawned in.
Vexx |
Rroff
The Xenodus Initiative.
7
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Posted - 2012.05.15 22:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Static wormholes that have been scanned down but never warped to are NOT scanable on the other end - they ONLY link to a destination system when initiated warp to.
If you don't scan your static the sig for it will remain there for several days before despawning and the sig will not expire in the time a spawned wormhole normally expires in once spawned. |
shadowgirl9
Get Out of Pod Free Card The Forgotten Templars
5
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Posted - 2012.05.15 22:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
i can kind of understand that however the last guy i been specking to is saying it will not spawn in anther WH unless u warp to your static, his evidence for this was because the corp that was in their would have never have taken an hour to scan down their wh.
now warped to or not as soon as it spawns (warped to or not) it sould instantly connext to anther wh and not only spawn on the one side?
as for the sites i have had sites in my wh now for over 10 days so that is a gd support that they don't but i am sure their are other things that may effect them |
Immortis Vexx
Lupus Draconis Dragehund
38
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Posted - 2012.05.15 22:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Static wormholes that have been scanned down but never warped to are NOT scanable on the other end - they ONLY link to a destination system when initiated warp to.
If you don't scan your static the sig for it will remain there for several days before despawning and the sig will not expire in the time a spawned wormhole normally expires in once spawned.
I do not dis-believe you, I would just like to see where you got this information from. I'm sure that there are other mechanics of this same sort that I would like to read about.
Thanks,
Vexx |
Rroff
The Xenodus Initiative.
7
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Posted - 2012.05.15 22:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
The most compelling evidence is the fact that if you scan the static before downtime but don't warp to it, then warp to it after downtime the sig in the destination system will have a post downtime ID.
We've been collapsing our old static before running sites for ~2 years and never once had any unexpected visitors from that source during that time while we've had plenty from other people who spawn an incoming link to us, I think its highly unlikely we'd have not had visitors from our "unspawned" static in all that time if it did actually spawn on the k162 side. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
202
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Posted - 2012.05.15 23:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rroff wrote:The most compelling evidence is the fact that if you scan the static before downtime but don't warp to it, then warp to it after downtime the sig in the destination system will have a post downtime ID.
We've been collapsing our old static before running sites for ~2 years and never once had any unexpected visitors from that source during that time while we've had plenty from other people who spawn an incoming link to us, I think its highly unlikely we'd have not had visitors from our "unspawned" static in all that time if it did actually spawn on the k162 side.
Yes personally I think the sig is definitely a compelling marker. Especially after the patch that caused them to not be completely random anymore.
Plus the fact of time. I have had a static that I did not warp to last upwards of a week. If in fact it was "active" it would have had the normal 24 hour timer.
And last, I have experienced the same sort of quiet, where I had zero visitors for upwards of a week when I had kept the static inactive and never got any other random WH's |
Devai Starchild
Shattered Planet Initiative
4
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Posted - 2012.05.16 01:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Once you collapse your static, the sig for the new static will generally respawn in the next 10 minutes.
Until you warp to that sig, though, the corresponding K162 exit for your static will not spawn anywhere else. |
Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
263
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Posted - 2012.05.16 02:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Static wormholes that have been scanned down but never warped to are NOT scanable on the other end - they ONLY link to a destination system when initiated warp to.
If you don't scan your static the sig for it will remain there for several days before despawning and the sig will not expire in the time a spawned wormhole normally expires in once spawned.
^this is correct.
can be tested by probing out a new static and not warping to it, come back in longer than 24 hours and it will still be in the same place. note that you may need to try it a few times since there's no way to stop someone else connecting to your system and warping to it. |
Nathan Jameson
Talocan Dominion Talocan United
388
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Posted - 2012.05.16 04:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oh look, it's this thread again. |
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Zarere
Team Pizza Viro Mors Non Est
38
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Posted - 2012.05.16 09:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Immortis Vexx wrote:Rroff wrote:Static wormholes that have been scanned down but never warped to are NOT scanable on the other end - they ONLY link to a destination system when initiated warp to.
If you don't scan your static the sig for it will remain there for several days before despawning and the sig will not expire in the time a spawned wormhole normally expires in once spawned. I do not dis-believe you, I would just like to see where you got this information from. I'm sure that there are other mechanics of this same sort that I would like to read about. Thanks, Vexx
I can confirm this, we found out the hard way.
You wont find a developer post though, as they wont tell us stuff like this. |
Ashimat
Reconfiguration Nation Transmission Lost
19
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Posted - 2012.05.16 09:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think the reason for so many just don't get this is that it does not seem to make sense from a logic point of view. Why should stuff only spawn on one side and not both?
From a developer p.o.w it makes totally sense. W-space was envisioned as thousands of mostly empty systems that linked to each other with dynamic spawning gates, aka "wormholes". You normally don't want to spend [server-] resources on stuff that never is going to be used. Thats probably why the "warp to spawn" mechanic exists in the first place. Without it, I would have to spawn sites for rejected missions all over the place...
So why spend resources and time on statically linking thousands of systems via WHs that none ever going to use? Especially when you already have all this fancy mechanic to initialize and "spawn" things when people warp to the grid where it's placed?
As long as none "needs" a WH it can just stay as a coordinate in space (for days, as people discovered), the actual connection don't need to be established and a minimal of resources gets wasted. |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
38
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Posted - 2012.05.16 11:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
My only .02: If you scan down your system on a regular basis, and there are no K162s (meaning someone has opened a WH to your system), then you can leave your static unopened and no one is going to come through it from the other side. However there's no guaranty that someone didn't come into your system from another WH, scanned down your system while you and your copr mates were off line, and opened your static for you...
IMHO it's always best to go ahead and spawn your statics so that you have control over them. Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
Coolsmoke
State War Academy Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.05.16 12:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bleugh double post |
Coolsmoke
State War Academy Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.05.16 12:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
This has done to death in multiple threads ever since Apocrypha, but CCP never caved in to constant pleading for clarification.
So nobody knows for sure, simply because you can't prove it 100% and the devs aren't telling.
However, it is worth pointing out that:
There is a difference between a spawned entity (complex, radar/mag/wormhole) and a scanned signal. Each is a discrete item. A signal merely points to a place in space saying "Here Be Dragons". An entity is something that actually exisists at that spot when you get there.
When it spawns is open for argument, although there's fairly good evidence that it happens upon warp initiation (evidence being Sleeper site escalation by a cap ship). But that may only be applicable to certain high-end Sleeper sites. Wormholes are after all a very different sort of entity (having locations in two systems for starters).
The general consenus is that a static wormhole spawns, along with its other side, when a ship initiates warp to it. However, there are many tales of w-dwellers who swear blind they've been visited despite constant scanning for K162's and not opening their own statics. Perhaps a static wormhole spawns when it is scanned to 100%...or 50%..
Of course now, with wormhole jump data removed, it's simply impossible to tell. |
Ashimat
Reconfiguration Nation Transmission Lost
19
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Posted - 2012.05.16 15:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Coolsmoke wrote:However, there are many tales of w-dwellers who swear blind they've been visited despite constant scanning for K162's and not opening their own statics. Perhaps a static wormhole spawns when it is scanned to 100%...or 50%.. No w-dweller can be sure of that. Just because you have not seen anyone on scan don't mean you don't have guests in your system. Just because you have not seen any K162s spawn, does not mean you are alone in the system. Just because you have not opened up your static don't mean it's still not opened.
I have the feeling that a lot of those tales are generated by pilots that just failed to see all the possibilities. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
701
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Posted - 2012.05.16 17:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Back when CCP allowed API jump queries about w-space systems, the stats also showed that there were no jumps while the statics were closed. |
Bane Nucleus
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
52
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Posted - 2012.05.16 20:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Honestly, never leave it to chance. I always assume some other corps scan alt has warped to it already. |
Frothgar
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
28
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Posted - 2012.05.16 22:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
In 2 years I've never seen something come through a static we've probed but didn't warp to.
On the other hand, I've had enough new sigs pop up and spawn small armies that I'm convinced the best characteristic of a good WH resident is a mild to moderate case of paranoia. |
Post Ironic
The Eyes of The Cat
0
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Posted - 2012.05.17 08:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
- |
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Post Ironic
The Eyes of The Cat
0
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Posted - 2012.05.17 08:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Coolsmoke wrote:The general consenus is that a static wormhole spawns, along with its other side, when a ship initiates warp to it. However, there are many tales of w-dwellers who swear blind they've been visited despite constant scanning for K162's and not opening their own statics. Perhaps a static wormhole spawns when it is scanned to 100%...or 50%..
Of course now, with wormhole jump data removed, it's simply impossible to tell.
Someone spawns a wormhole a system, scans that system's static, warps to it and checks the next system, decides that that route isn't interesting or viable, goes back and collapses his connection to the system in order to roll the dice again.
Happens every day, and if that hasn't occurred to the inhabitants of the system, and providing they weren't online or paying attention when that happened, it might look to them like despite the absence of any K162 at the moment of their scanning, someone has been coming from the only place they couldn't possibly be coming: their unwarped static. And the fact that static will despawn within normal time will only serve to fuel the confusion.
Sheer observation over the years however, has wiped these speculations from the table. There's no need for an official word from CCP about it to anyone who's been doing this for a while.
|
QT McWhiskers
Hard Knocks Inc.
2
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Posted - 2012.05.17 17:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Not long ago, my corp collapsed our static and any other holes in preparation for capital escalation sites. We finished the sites an hour or so later and we warped to static. We jump through the static and notice that there is a bunch of Tengus on scan and a noctis.
Very quickly afterwards, the tengus dissapear, no noctis comes in, and we breifly see scouts on Dscan as the normal WH dance happens when two well organized wormholers are looking for each other.
From the amount of wrecks and the speed of their dissapearance we know that.
A. These pilots were running sites for at least an hour. B. (Removed for OPSEC reasons.) C. Only detected our sig when we warped to the new static that had been scanned down for over an hour.
This is not an isolated incident either. Very similar situations have been seen with gassers, caps, and other expensive toys when our static comes across competent wormhole dwellers.
We know that correlation is not proof of causality, but this is pretty damn good evidence that has merely been witnessed by myself, and my corp. |
Rroff
The Xenodus Initiative.
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 17:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
I just posted something of a similiar nature in the other thread about this - tho from the other way around - we were almost jumped in site by another corp who I know of fairly well and chat to some of their members now and again in the AHARM public channel the scenario being:
Both corps had collapsed all links to their WH and left their static scanned but not warped to. Both corps ran sites about the same time while monitoring for new sigs, etc. as usual. The other corp once they'd run their sites then warped to their static looking for pew. The WH then linked straight to us. We saw the new sig and pulled out the site as their cloaky scout was narrowing down which site we were at.
After the failed gank there was some banter about it between myself and those in the corp who were in the same channel ingame - which clarified the above points including that we were the first place their static linked to - to my mind its pretty conclusive that the link to us was only spawned once they initated warp to it. |
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 20:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Immortis Vexx wrote:shadowgirl9 wrote:ok in the last few days i have people keep saying i am wrong when it comes to spawning a static WH,
i have always belived that a static WH when collpases will instantly respawn, a few people have now been trying to tell me that the WH will not be initiated/ opened untill it is warped to, now i know the sites work like that is this the same for static WH's or are they just talking crap? This seems to be one of those Schrodinger's cat sorta things. If you can scan it, you can warp to it. Thus, if you can scan it, the hole has to exist SOMEWHERE. A hole can just as easily be scanned from either side. You can have people come into your WH from a hole that you didn't scan so they CAN'T solely exist on one side or the other until opened. Right? Perhaps I am misunderstanding this whole thing.... Also, I don't have 100% proof that the sites don't "open" unless you warp to them but I am fairly certain that is false. We have had stuff despawn that we haven't touched in the same amount of time that "opened" sites have despawned in. Vexx
The problem with this post right here, is this poster fails to realize there is a difference between a wormhole, and a wormhole signature. When you pop your static wormhole, the wormhole, and it's signature will go away. A new WH signature will surface and you can scan it down.
The actual wormhole itself will not exist until you warp to it and the k162 does not surface on the other side until you warp to your side. This has been tested, and tested again. If you keep your system clear, pop all K162's that come in, and never warp to your static, you will never see a visitor in your hole unless a k162 pops in your system, plain and simple. |
Coolsmoke
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 13:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ashimat wrote:Coolsmoke wrote:However, there are many tales of w-dwellers who swear blind they've been visited despite constant scanning for K162's and not opening their own statics. Perhaps a static wormhole spawns when it is scanned to 100%...or 50%.. No w-dweller can be sure of that. Just because you have not seen anyone on scan don't mean you don't have guests in your system. Just because you have not seen any K162s spawn, does not mean you are alone in the system. Just because you have not opened up your static don't mean it's still not opened. I have the feeling that a lot of those tales are generated by pilots that just failed to see all the possibilities.
I totally agree. But still they swear blind :)
A though has just occurred to me; has anyone scanned their fresh new static just before DT, then waited till after DT to warp-to and jump? A comparison of the K162 side's Sig ID with other Sig ID's in-system might provide a clue.. |
Rroff
The Xenodus Initiative.
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 14:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Coolsmoke wrote:
A though has just occurred to me; has anyone scanned their fresh new static just before DT, then waited till after DT to warp-to and jump? A comparison of the K162 side's Sig ID with other Sig ID's in-system might provide a clue..
Yes its been done - the k162 side has a post DT sig id.
|
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 10:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Honestly, never leave it to chance. I always assume some other corps scan alt has warped to it already. This is a fairly safe rule of thumb to be honest. I wouldn't leave a static unscanned for days because in that time you could've had an incoming that was collapsed quickly, and when that incoming existed someone could've come in and "opened" your static, leaving you in a position of believing that it hadn't spawned when it actually had.
The only way you can really know, or at least be as sure as you can be, is to collapse the static yourself at such time that you know there are no other incoming wormholes or people already inside cloaked. As soon as you see probes that aren't your own, or time has passed when noone was watching d-scan, the saffest policy is to assume it has probably already been spawned by someone else.
The Schr+¦dinger's Cat observation is particularly astute |
MackemInSpace
Harm Co.
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 07:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
Coolsmoke wrote:[snip] However, there are many tales of w-dwellers who swear blind they've been visited despite constant scanning for K162's and not opening their own statics. Perhaps a static wormhole spawns when it is scanned to 100%...or 50%..
It's possible those people had visitors "camping over" in their system, or had a k162 which was force-closed after the corp that opened it had pinged the residents' static hole. |
MackemInSpace
Harm Co.
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 07:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Back when CCP allowed API jump queries about w-space systems, the stats also showed that there were no jumps while the statics were closed.
If you were using Staticmapper, it was never 100% accurate anyway. Many times I'd noticed that jumps I'd made with various characters weren't showing. (And yes I was well aware of the refresh times on there). I can't speak for any other websites offering the same sort of service. |
Scoto Timta
EveMerc's
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 13:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
MackemInSpace wrote:If you were using Staticmapper, it was never 100% accurate anyway. Many times I'd noticed that jumps I'd made with various characters weren't showing. (And yes I was well aware of the refresh times on there). I can't speak for any other websites offering the same sort of service. The inaccuracies were consistent across the various websites. Corpmate and I force-closed a C1 static (takes over 25 jumps due to mass restrictions per ship) and later (several hours) I noticed that the jump record showed 1 jump during that time. Checked other sites and they all said the same thing. After seeing similar behavior several times I quit believing the jump counts. |
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