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Tavers
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Posted - 2009.06.10 19:40:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Tavers on 10/06/2009 19:41:06 If you had to choose a T1 battleship class ship to run L4s what would it be?
I have heard a lot of people say CNR, does anyone else have an opinion? |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.10 19:43:00 -
[2]
Most people count faction as a separate category from t1, but I guess. |
SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.10 19:49:00 -
[3]
If your including faction then the Nightmare and CNR are the respective kings of it, and I would strongly prefer the Nightmare of those 2. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Tavers
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Posted - 2009.06.10 19:55:00 -
[4]
Thank you for your responses
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GGjita
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Posted - 2009.06.10 20:17:00 -
[5]
nightmare for em/therm weak enemies
CNR for exp/kin weak enemies
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.10 20:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: GGjita nightmare for em/therm weak enemies
CNR for exp/kin weak enemies
The Kin weak enemies second weakest res is Therm and the Nightmare does LOADS more base damage then the CNR, So I would say Nightmare for 3/4 the enemies ;) --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.10 20:25:00 -
[7]
Whoops, I keep forgetting the nightmare isn't actually a marauder.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Hobgoblin ll
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Posted - 2009.06.10 20:58:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hobgoblin ll on 10/06/2009 20:58:53
Quote: The Kin weak enemies second weakest res is Therm and the Nightmare does LOADS more base damage then the CNR, So I would say Nightmare for 3/4 the enemies ;)
This is wrong, because after the pulse laser nerf you need beam lasers to do missions, and even javelin torps have a higher damage than nightmare, while having better range than optimal of the biggest turrets !! |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.06.10 21:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Hobgoblin ll Edited by: Hobgoblin ll on 10/06/2009 20:58:53
Quote: The Kin weak enemies second weakest res is Therm and the Nightmare does LOADS more base damage then the CNR, So I would say Nightmare for 3/4 the enemies ;)
This is wrong, because after the pulse laser nerf you need beam lasers to do missions, and even javelin torps have a higher damage than nightmare, while having better range than optimal of the biggest turrets !!
Torp cnr will out damage a nightmare, but the nightmare will instapop frigs out at lock range, and most cruisers/bcs out to ~50km. not to mention the costs of feeding the cnr with faction/t2 ammo. and will need 2 painters to get full (and even close to full) damage on most targets.
and pulse lasers aren't really that great for missions anyways, only slightly better damage then tachs and less then 1/2 the range.
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GGjita
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Posted - 2009.06.10 21:35:00 -
[10]
Edited by: GGjita on 10/06/2009 21:35:54
Originally by: SuiJuris
Originally by: GGjita nightmare for em/therm weak enemies
CNR for exp/kin weak enemies
The Kin weak enemies second weakest res is Therm and the Nightmare does LOADS more base damage then the CNR, So I would say Nightmare for 3/4 the enemies ;)
Nightmare doesn't really do "LOADS" more base damge. My CNR does over 800 dps as base damage (w/ cruise). Yeah the nightmare is closer to 1k dps but that number prolly get cut back down to around the CNR dps levels when you factor in optimals. At this point the CNR edges it out because it gets to do kin damage while the Nightmare doesn't. Also the CNR can 1 volley frigs and cruisers and 1-2 volley BC's, and this is at any range .
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Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.10 21:44:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Zo5o on 10/06/2009 21:46:47 Sentry/Rail Dominix is the most efficient across all damage types. It can put out over 1000 dps if fit correctly; missileboats can't do that without torps, torps' true dps are far below their on-paper dps since the new missile damage formula was applied due to speed/sigradius of rats, and torps' range are simply unacceptable for many missions.
Laser boats suffer versus Guristas and Angels, Hybrid boats suffer versus Bloods and Sanshas, and projectile boats simply pale in comparison to anything else for missions.
Sentry/rail domi can use all damage types, and, as I said above, can put out over 1000 dps, which is right up there with the other DPS kings, with the added ability to switch out damage types. Oh, and Garde II's track better than any long-range turrets.
Paladin/Nightmare will be most efficient against EM-weak rats, except for those missions with lots of tracking disruption.
Kronos will be most efficient against kin-weak rats.
The omnipresent cruise CNR will be the most efficient against NOTHING. Even its on-paper DPS pales in comparison to the other ships I mentioned here, then you add in defenders, and DPS lost due to rat speed and sig radius... cruise CNR's strength is that it's as close to idiot proof as it gets. Hit f1 with grouped launchers, repeat. Efficiency is not its strong point.
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GGjita
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zo5o Edited by: Zo5o on 10/06/2009 21:52:06
Paladin/Nightmare will be most efficient against EM-weak rats, except for those missions with lots of tracking disruption.
Kronos will be most efficient against kin-weak rats.
The omnipresent cruise CNR will be the most efficient against NOTHING. Even its on-paper DPS pales in comparison to the other ships I mentioned here, then you add in defenders, and DPS lost due to rat speed and sig radius... cruise CNR's strength is that it's as close to idiot proof as it gets. THIS is why the farmers use them, NOT efficiency. Losing ships kills long-term efficiency more than lack of DPS, and the farmers' bosses don't want them losing ships, so they have them fly idiot-proof ships. Hit f1 with grouped launchers, repeat. Efficiency is not the CNR's strong point.
A Few things: You don't get to bring Paladin ro Kronos into the picture, the thread is not about T2 BS's.
As for the CNR's "on paper" dps well if you fit it right (something a farmer is not going to do and they shouldn't even be mentioned as they don't count as people) with 4 CN BCU's, 3 rigor rigs, and a TP guess what, it will do it's full "on paper" dps to cruisers and higher. Since drones eat the frigs for you this means that the CNR does actually do it's on paper dps. With the very small explosion radius of cruise missiles with this fit target velocity doesn't even factor into the damage not to mention rats don't move fast enough to matter anyway.
Yes CNR must deal with defender missiles sometimes. The thing here is that MOST rats don't use defender missiles and the ones that do will only be killing 1 missile every 2 volleys so you are losing 1/14th of your damage to the very few rats that do have them. But I'm positive that this doesn't even compare to the amount of dps lost do to guns optimal ranges.
Also when talking about resists, sure gun boats have damage types that do well against certain types of rats but no matter gun boats will always lose a bigger percentage of their dps to resists than missiles because missiles do all their damage to the weakest resist while guns do not.
Originally by: Zo5o Edited by: Zo5o on 10/06/2009 21:52:06 To maximize efficiency, you need to ganktank. That is, your DPS is your tank. Wrecks can't kill you. Fit minimal tank, lots of damage/tracking mods, and annihilate. Yes, this requires actually using your brain and actually paying attention to the mission, two things that flying a cruise CNR don't require.
What so a CNR can't ganktank? You are trying to compare your gankboat to an isk farmers gank-boat and that is wrong. To properly use the CNR you have to manage your TP effectively and kill things in the right order to make sure you get to use it on any ship that needss it. Also I'm pretty sure all your domi does once it gets into a mission is just target and shoot, in fact that is what ALL mission boats do. Once you have your gank fitting on any mission boat you don't really have to pay attention you just kill things, so this is just a dumb point.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:21:00 -
[13]
The nightmare Uses Tach's Not Pulses, so Range isn't really a issue --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: GGjita Blah blah blah
Your on-paper DPS still pales in comparison to a well-fit sentry domi by a couple hundred DPS, so congratulations on wasting time on your essay bro.
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GGjita
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:31:00 -
[15]
Edited by: GGjita on 10/06/2009 22:35:17
Originally by: Zo5o
Originally by: GGjita Blah blah blah
Your on-paper DPS still pales in comparison to a well-fit sentry domi by a couple hundred DPS, so congratulations on wasting time on your essay bro.
Never really said that it didn't. Just pointing out that most of your points about the CNR are well dead wrong. I wouldn't mind comparing mission completion times though, as that is what matters.
And sorry but getting to 800+ dps to any damage type at any range is fine with me.
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Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:38:00 -
[16]
Quote: I wouldn't mind comparing mission completion times though, as that is what matters.
Sub-8 minute Gone Berserk. All rats.
GG bro.
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GGjita
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Posted - 2009.06.10 22:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zo5o
Quote: I wouldn't mind comparing mission completion times though, as that is what matters.
Sub-8 minute Gone Berserk. All rats.
GG bro.
Just picking your best mission comon, gets times for all of them, i'm sure i could pick a good mission that you couldn't compete with (Buzz Kill for instance). When i get home from work i'll post my all my times. |
Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.10 23:31:00 -
[18]
> implying that Buzz Kill is worth running
reactionimage.jpg
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Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.06.10 23:39:00 -
[19]
I would go with a nice Lazer based ship one of the Ammars or Nightmare. |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.10 23:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Zo5o
Originally by: GGjita Blah blah blah
Your on-paper DPS still pales in comparison to a well-fit sentry domi by a couple hundred DPS, so congratulations on wasting time on your essay bro.
Actually GGjita was right on many points and your mockery about the cruise missiles CNR shows that you don't know it's full potential. With rigor rigs and explosion velocity/radius implants you do full damage to BS/BC/Cruisers no matter how close they are and pop even small frigates relatively fast. You have always the best damage-type which is extremely important and only the drone-domi comes close to that. Also range doesn't matter and there are plenty of missions where you have rats at 70 80 or 90km. No need to approach or wait, fire 2-3 3xlauncher-group volleys a BC that is 80km for example and continue with next target. Turrets have to chose between range and damage. It requires no cap for weapons, even without cap mods it has more cap for tank than hybrid or laser ships. And it offers an option to do missions afk with fof cruise missiles - which you can't do in turret ships and not to full extent with the domi, since in many missions new spawns will eat your drones if your afk.
You can pick now a mission that contains mostly BS and show the shorter ranges, but if you take an average of all level 4 missions, you will find a high percentage of sub-BS ships, that reduce your shiny EFT dps number for other ships than the cruise missile raven/cnr/golem.
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GGjita
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Posted - 2009.06.10 23:51:00 -
[21]
Buzz Kill has been changed and now totals around 8mil bounty, so yeah it is worth running
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Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.10 23:58:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Zo5o on 10/06/2009 23:58:59
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Drivel from the biggest caldari fanboy with the tiniest brain on the forums who no long-time reader of said forums would ever take seriously.
Range isn't an issue son. My sentry/rail domi will put out extremely similar true DPS to your CNR at its maximum range, and its DPS only goes up as the rats get closer.
Cap and tank aren't an issue if you fly your ship properly and kill stuff fast enough.
I'll run rings around your CNR in my sentrinix re: mission completion time. But then again anyone who has ever read your posts already knows that.
You should probably stay out of it when the adults are talking.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:00:00 -
[23]
3 rigors and a TP means the Raven (class) does 100% full damage to frigs (via drones), destroyers (via missiles), cruisers (via missiles), battlecruisers (via missiles), and battleships (via missiles). I haven't directly compared my sentry domi to my new raven, but I suspect that the Raven just made up alot of efficiency on my domi (you might remember that I have traditionally held that a sentry domi is better than a CNR, but worse than a Golem).
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:01:00 -
[24]
Quote: Buzz Kill has been changed and now totals around 8mil bounty, so yeah it is worth running
That's what, 2.5 more million than before?
Still not worth it.
Worth it to me is 50-100m/hr.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Zo5o Range isn't an issue son. My sentry/rail domi will put out extremely similar true DPS to your CNR at its maximum range, and its DPS only goes up as the rats get closer.
Hrm, how much DPS does your Domi put out? IIRC mine puts out in the 850-900 range, and a CNR puts out (IIRC) in the 800 range with 4 CN BCU's, 3 rigors, and a TP. Speaking from experience, the drones miss sometimes, and so do the guns. The ganked out Raven probably beats your mission times, especially on missions where you have to move.
Quote: I'll run rings around your CNR in my sentrinix re: mission completion time. But then again anyone who has ever read your posts already knows that.
I'm interested. There was a thread a while back about whether or not the NH was better than the Raven/CNR. The CNR turned out hands down better than the NH, and the Raven turned out to be about even. In it, I posted mission times for every ship I could get my hands on. Think you'd be willing to post your mission times in it, or should I bring it over here for perusal?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: GGjita Buzz Kill has been changed and now totals around 8mil bounty, so yeah it is worth running
True story I just ran one today. |
GGjita
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rip Minner
Originally by: GGjita Buzz Kill has been changed and now totals around 8mil bounty, so yeah it is worth running
True story I just ran one today.
yeah, and i guess i forgot to mention they halved the number of ships you now have to kill.
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Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:19:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Zo5o on 11/06/2009 00:24:53
Quote: Hrm, how much DPS does your Domi put out?
1008.
Quote: especially on missions where you have to move.
Nah. Kill everything but the frigs, focusing sentries and rails on each target, then let the lights do their thing while you fly to the gate. There's like what, two missions with long gates anyways?
Quote: Think you'd be willing to post your mission times in it, or should I bring it over here for perusal?
Sorry, I haven't exhaustively cataloged my times for every mission, and I don't forsee myself running another mission again for the next few years, since making 50-100m an hour tends to build up a tidy nest egg.
I'm pretty damn confident in my understanding of PVE mechanics though, and as such am pretty damn confident my 1000 DPS domi will smoke a CNR re: average mission completion time across the board.
My comments re: rat speed/sigradius and cruise DPS were made because most people don't do the whole 3 rigor rig TP thing. That WILL significantly close the gap between a Domi and a CNR, but you're still looking at about a 200 DPS difference.
Turret optimal range isn't an issue because I've always carried 3 types of ammo, and I've always timed my ammo switches to coincide with myself being about to run out of ammo in my guns anyways, so I don't lose any time to switching ammo. Sentry optimal isn't an issue because I've always carried a set of gardes and a set of wardens/curators.
I'm doing about 700 DPS at my maximum range, so the CNR is doing 100 more DPS there, but that's half the gap compared to the 200 DPS difference up close, and there's WAY more rats across the board who appear within my gardes' optimal than there are at 70-80 km.
Quote: yeah, and i guess i forgot to mention they halved the number of ships you now have to kill.
Oh wow, yeah I just checked that on eve survival. Nice. CCP boosted something? My head asplode. I haven't run a mission in a couple months... the important question regarding the mission's worth now is: now that the mission doesn't take as long to complete, is the LP value still maxed out for Buzz Kill?
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Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:27:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 11/06/2009 00:29:08 Edited by: Rip Minner on 11/06/2009 00:27:30 I fly a Dominix/Raven/and Apoc. There all good ships but Apoc wins hands down for easy of using and lowest over all cost in ammo/drones. If a dominix/raven rips though a missin in XXXX time the Apoc is right on there only a short time behind them or ahead of them depending on the mission. And a Nightmare is a tech 1 Pally were dps is conserned and same is true of the Rattler only it sucks down isk to do its dps. |
Zo5o
Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.11 00:37:00 -
[30]
Quote: And a Nightmare is a tech 1 Pally were dps is conserned
You're not giving Nightmare enough credit. That tracking bonus adds considerable true DPS.
Whether the Paladin makes up for it in terms of isk/hr through its ability to loot/salvage while killing stuff is a question of how much you value your loot/salvage, which will be dependent upon the isk/lp ratio you're getting through resale. The more isk/lp you're making, the less valuable loot/salvage becomes, and the more valuable DPS becomes.
But yeah, Nightmare > Paladin for true DPS, period. |
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