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Aus Dog
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Posted - 2009.06.15 16:23:00 -
[1]
I decided to cash in on the virtually free ammo that Lasers give us and by doing so opened a helluva can of worms! The range limitation of lasers makes you want to violate the Cardinal Rule of "Don't Mix Guns". Seems to me that in PVE the bad guys generally wind up at close range where even with the most range limiting crystal you are screwed when they orbit at 1000 meters. And for some reason no Pulse Laser will do the damage of a Tachyon Laser but the only way I can think of to make it useful is to fit an Afterburner and run from the rats to try to open the range. Question. When you fit a crystal that drops Optimal Range by 50% does that reduce the Accuracy Fall-Off range as well? I enjoy lasers but seems like you are lucky to get any results 50% of the time. Aus |
SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.15 16:35:00 -
[2]
If your talking about Battleship sized pulse lasers they will not be able to hit frigates once the frigates get in Orbit, and they are not all that useful for PVE until you get Tech II ones and can use scorch then they are awesome.
Pulse lasers are one of the best turrets in the Game TBH, the combination of Range tracking and damage they have is quite amazing.
What size ship are you in and what lvl of missions are you doing? --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.15 17:21:00 -
[3]
Your concerns are not unique to lasers. Weapons with good optimal range have bad tracking, it's as simple as that. The solution is definitely not to Mix Guns, though. Prioritise the small targets while they're far away and have low transversals, and you can usually pop them in a single volley each. As things start to get too close for you to track them, let your drones get them and start firing at bigger/more distant things.
Battleship-sized beam lasers should be able to take out frigates at 40km+, and cruisers at 15km+; in both cases this should be enough time to destroy them before the get inside of these ranges (unless it's one of the rare missions where they start closer). And even if you miss a few, let drones handle them while you fire on the battleship NPCs with your large turrets.
By the way:
Quote: The range limitation of lasers makes you want to violate the Cardinal Rule of "Don't Mix Guns"... I enjoy lasers but seems like you are lucky to get any results 50% of the time
Actually, lasers (especially pulse lasers) have the best range of close-range guns in the game, and the beams are about equal to anything else. So if you can't manage with lasers, then hybrids or projectile turrets won't be any easier.
Quote: Seems to me that in PVE the bad guys generally wind up at close range
Only if you let them. They usually start "far away", and if you destroy them at that point you'll be fine.
Quote: When you fit a crystal that drops Optimal Range by 50% does that reduce the Accuracy Fall-Off range as well?
No, just the optimal - though with lasers you don't really want to be in falloff if you can avoid it since your optimal is so much bigger that you've got a generous range to work in already, without having to worry about losing damage/accuracy by going past it. |
Joss Sparq
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.15 17:26:00 -
[4]
Also, if you want to literally make your lasers blue, fit Gamma crystals.
(That is all I have to add.) |
Aus Dog
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Posted - 2009.06.15 19:32:00 -
[5]
Tou folks have some great info and it is much appreciated. Part of the problem is the long lock time of my Raven which lets the rats get close b4 and can start on them. I'll be switching tomorrow into a Maelstrom which locks 2 and 1/4 seconds faster which should help. Sounds like for PVE (Level 3) and if I get a sidekick Level 4 would work better staying with medium Pulse Lasers instead of moving into the heavier lasers. I notice that the large crystal pulse lasers don't do any more damage than the medium crystal Pulsers. Was very surprised that large crystal Pulse a 3.0 damage factor is about max. You would think the larger crystals and more power used would render more damage.Geez. It looks like the can of worms is bigger than I realized. "Owning a dog teaches a child Honesty, Loyalty, and to always circle three times before lying down".....Mark Twain |
max scrotes
Gallente Aurora Security
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Posted - 2009.06.15 19:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aus Dog the problem is the Raven with Pulse Lasers
( see what i did there)
there is your problem.
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Niclas Solo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.06.15 21:19:00 -
[7]
And he will have the same problem tomorrow when he switch to Maelstrom. if you gonna use laser use a amarr BS with bonus for them ^^
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.06.15 21:31:00 -
[8]
If your using pulse then you need to be in an apoc. The range bonus you get means that most of the time you wont even need your drones to take out the frigates. |
Gabriel Cane
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.15 21:40:00 -
[9]
If you are flying a RAVEN for the love of god put cruise missiles on it or torpedoes not lasers. This should help with your range issue a target painter will help with smaller targets.
Mael/pest fit 800mm auto cannons or 1200/1400mm artillery not lasers.
Mega/Hyp fit blasters not lasers.
Armageddon/apoc/Abbadon FIT LASERS
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Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.06.15 21:44:00 -
[10]
Aus, before people flame the crap out of you I'd like to tell you that if you're using lasers on anything but an Amarr vessel you are doing it beyond wrong.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.15 22:07:00 -
[11]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 15/06/2009 22:07:17
Originally by: Ichandasil Aus, before people flame the crap out of you I'd like to tell you that if you're using lasers on anything but an Amarr vessel you are doing it beyond wrong.
You've never fought a laser, shield buffered myrmidon. Or a Tempulse. Or a pulsephoon. Or a laserstrom. Or a sleipulse.
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.06.15 22:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 15/06/2009 22:07:17
Originally by: Ichandasil Aus, before people flame the crap out of you I'd like to tell you that if you're using lasers on anything but an Amarr vessel you are doing it beyond wrong.
You've never fought a laser, shield buffered myrmidon. Or a Tempulse. Or a pulsephoon. Or a laserstrom. Or a sleipulse.
Or Ferox or Thorax, both of which are surprisingly good with lasers... |
abrasive soap
Balls Deep Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.16 01:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 15/06/2009 22:07:17
Originally by: Ichandasil Aus, before people flame the crap out of you I'd like to tell you that if you're using lasers on anything but an Amarr vessel you are doing it beyond wrong.
You've never fought a laser, shield buffered myrmidon. Or a Tempulse. Or a pulsephoon. Or a laserstrom. Or a sleipulse.
Lasers on a sleipnir is just terrible. Laser/blaster strom isn't unheard of (blasterstrom before web nerf) Pulse phoon is just dumb as sieges and drones do most of your damage regardless of guns Tempest is basically bad in any form
Laser myrmi caps out fast but fun to use Laser ferox is pretty fun since you basically make isk from losing the ship because its so cheap The only reason to use a laser thorax is because the omen is terrible
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Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.16 07:49:00 -
[14]
What is the purpose of theses lasers when mounted on your raven?
Is the task you want them to perform one of main force? or of point defence?
Main Force means you're using them to add damage on primary targets (battleships...etc.) in which case Standard crystals should be adequate to reach most targets in orbit and tracking should be within reasonable limits. Tachyons will offer range and will volley damage (damage per shot) but their lower tracking and ROF will cause issues. I would assume that six hardpoints are missiles and the remaining 2 are lasers - so mixing the two will provide little benefit.
Point Defence means that you're trying to apply damage to small vessels which your missiles have trouble with, particularly frigates. In that case I would suggest that you're using the wrong weapons. Dual light beams would be a more appropriate solution than any Battleship grade weapon. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.16 08:07:00 -
[15]
3/10 |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.16 09:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Stuart Price
Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 15/06/2009 22:07:17
Originally by: Ichandasil Aus, before people flame the crap out of you I'd like to tell you that if you're using lasers on anything but an Amarr vessel you are doing it beyond wrong.
You've never fought a laser, shield buffered myrmidon. Or a Tempulse. Or a pulsephoon. Or a laserstrom. Or a sleipulse.
Or Ferox or Thorax, both of which are surprisingly good with lasers...
Let's not forget the laser Rapier, or the laser/missile Huginn. There's a good reason I'm training Minmatar Cruiser V, but not T2 ACs. -----------
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Imaos
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Posted - 2009.06.16 10:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: abrasive soap
Laser myrmi caps out fast but fun to use
Huh?
It isn't that bad on the myrm. It has some astonishing 'cap'abilities. (of course don't try it without controlled bursts 5, and both cap skills to 5)
Imaos ------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Aus Dog
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Posted - 2009.06.16 11:01:00 -
[18]
The Maelstrom has better powergrid to support laser and quicker locktime and 7.5% to shields per level. I have 4 missile and three laser slots on Raven. Powergrid I have pretty well figured but Cap only seems to relate once I use a vessel and can put it in context. The medium crystal lasers generally keep up with the Cruise missiles at dealing damage which I find surprising. Altogether wish I had never left standard CN heavy missiles. I looked at Amarr boats but I hate armor tanking and don't do it well. My shields take good care of me and that bonus for shields on Mal should help. "Owning a dog teaches a child Honesty, Loyalty, and to always circle three times before lying down".....Mark Twain |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.16 11:15:00 -
[19]
A nightmare is the ship you want. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.06.16 11:21:00 -
[20]
Laser Nightmare? Pah, it won't catch on. |
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Aus Dog
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Posted - 2009.06.16 11:33:00 -
[21]
I will answer my own question. EveMon says Purger causes no damage to cap or powergrid but gives a 10% bump on signature. "Owning a dog teaches a child Honesty, Loyalty, and to always circle three times before lying down".....Mark Twain |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.16 14:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: abrasive soap Laser myrmi caps out fast but fun to use
My laser myrm is cap stable with all guns/scorch and TD running. It's not nano'd at all tho.
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Aus Dog
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Posted - 2009.06.16 16:06:00 -
[23]
Another question. What is with these storyline's that pay no LP's and isk is crappy. I know it helps faction rating but since I have JC's I'm not worried about faction rating. "Owning a dog teaches a child Honesty, Loyalty, and to always circle three times before lying down".....Mark Twain |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.17 12:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Aus Dog Part of the problem is the long lock time of my Raven which lets the rats get close b4 and can start on them.
Actually, part of the problem is that it sounds like you're using large turrets to do a level 3 mission. This is never going to be optimal, partly because there aren't going to be any battleships in level 3 missions (which are the ship class that large weapons are designed to be effective against), and partly because in level 3s the rats generally start much closer, since they're at long-ish range for medium weapons. Level 4s will typically put you something like 70km from the spawns, but I don't think you'll get anything like that in level 3s.
In any case, ensure that you lock all the frigate before aggroing the group - it sounds like you're taking aggro and then starting to lock the frigates. You can only reliably take them out if you're firing from the word go; if they get within 30km before you lock them it's best to leave them to drones.
Oh, and as people have said there is absolutely no reason ever to use laser turrets on a Raven.
Quote: I'll be switching tomorrow into a Maelstrom which locks 2 and 1/4 seconds faster which should help.
There is still absolutely no reason to use laser turrets on a Maelstrom, rather than the bonused projectile turrets (artillery for missions, usually). Though as I've been pointing out, your problems are with tracking which will apply just as much to the large arty as they do to large laser turrets.
Quote: Sounds like for PVE (Level 3) and if I get a sidekick Level 4 would work better staying with medium Pulse Lasers instead of moving into the heavier lasers.
Yes, definitely - large lasers are the wrong tool for the job in level 3s, as their much much lower tracking means they will have trouble hitting the smaller targets there - especially when they start at closer distances.
Along the same lines, a battleship is also the wrong tool for the job as it's effectively a platform for large weapons. If you're using a Raven now, then a much better solution for level 3 missions would be using a Drake with Heavy Missiles. If you really want to use laser turrets then using medium-sized lasers on a Harbinger would be a much better choice and get the job done quicker.
Quote: I notice that the large crystal pulse lasers don't do any more damage than the medium crystal Pulsers. Was very surprised that large crystal Pulse a 3.0 damage factor is about max. You would think the larger crystals and more power used would render more damage.
By "damage factor", do you mean the "Damage Modifier", by any chance? The fact that this is expressed as a multiplier should have let you know that it's multiplying something - and it turns out that what it multiplies is the base damage of the ammunition. Check the damage that a medium crystal does, and compare that to a corresponding large crystal, which does double the damage. This means that all else being equal, a large turret will hit twice as hard as a medium turret with the same damage modifier.
Besides, you can get the damage mod well above 3.0. The best laser turrets have a damage mod of 3.6x right out of the box (excluding Tachyons which are a beautiful exception); this can be increased by skills - 25% from the appropriate turret skill (e.g. Large Energy Turret), an extra 10% from the Specialisation skill if it's a T2 turret, and an extra 15% from Surgical Strike which already takes the damage mod up to 5.69. Then there's ship bonuses, which typically give another 25% on ships with a damage bonus (now up to 7.11x). Finally, damage modules such as Heat Sinks further increase the turrets' damage mod, such that three T2 heat sinks will bring this example turret to a 9.0x damage mod, three times what you considered possible. |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.17 12:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Aus Dog Another question. What is with these storyline's that pay no LP's and isk is crappy. I know it helps faction rating but since I have JC's I'm not worried about faction rating.
You've kind of answered your own question there - it's like saying "what is it with these shield hardener modules? I know they increase shield resistances but since I armour tank I'm not worried about shield resistances".
The point of storyline missions is primarily that they increase your faction standing. If you don't want to increase faction standing, and you also don't care about massive corporation standing boosts to the corp you run them for, then they're just going to be an unspectacular option. |
Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.06.17 13:02:00 -
[26]
I like these threads where even the original troll is so nonplussed by the stupidity of the people responding to him that he gives up and makes the thread about something else.
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Aus Dog
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Posted - 2009.06.17 15:24:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Aus Dog on 17/06/2009 15:30:17 Edited by: Aus Dog on 17/06/2009 15:26:56 Gartel. Excellent info there. I knew the multiplier couldn't be the whole answer. Now I know how to get the strait poop. One thing about Eve that makes no sense to me is that an elephant gun has no effect close up (read Tachyon or Large Turret). In real life a huge firearm works just fine close up even if it creates a mess. I have the Strom and have cross-trained for it so it is a fact. And looking at it in comparison it seems to me to be a Minmitar Raven. It has the great shields. Faster lock time and the turrets and launcher hardpoints to enable equipping it as I like. The description for the Strom says versatility. Sounds good to me. If Tachyons are pointless in missions then I guess medium lasers beside my cruise missiles would be most efficient. Both cruise missiles and medium crystal lasers seem to do a fine job in missions with a litle crystal mambo. And the rational for using lasers as opposed to projectile turrets is the almost free ammo. Yes I know I am overlooking the bonus for said weapon. And Surgical Strike is training or module? |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.06.17 15:44:00 -
[28]
Laser Ishtar FTW? |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.06.17 15:44:00 -
[29]
You're pretty much entirely clueless, aren't you? |
Aus Dog
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:39:00 -
[30]
Gartel. If you're still there what is the simplest way to figure damage. I have little control over their tracking speed or proximity so a quick ball-park would be the weapons damage multiplier times the crystals damage multiple? |
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