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Arcane Azmadi
Caldari First Flying Wing Inc Primary.
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Posted - 2009.06.19 12:48:00 -
[31]
The way I understand it, EVERY ship you take into PvP is marked for death from the moment you buy it. At some time or another, you WILL lose it. The question is simply estimating how much MORE usage you are likely to get out of the ship by rigging it. They say every bullet that misses you brings you one closer to the one that kills you- so how many more bullets can you dodge by rigging?
If you're PvPing in a BS you should have enough disposable income that the cost of the rigs should be a non-issue. Sure, insurance doesn't cover the cost of the rigs, but if people let insurance premiums determine whether or not to fly a ship, no-one would use T2 ships at all. If you can't afford to fly a rigged battleship into PvP you probably can't afford to fly an unrigged one either. |
Daveion Steel
Gallente 6thsense Corp
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Posted - 2009.06.19 14:48:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mykpilot
So, comparing rigged vs not rigged, I can lose 2-3 fitted BS for every 1 rigged BS.
Well thats good, because you will.
Have fun above all and PvP to win.
D... |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.06.19 17:51:00 -
[33]
For pve if its a ship you plan on using regularly at all rig it.
For pvp you should rig it. Trimarks and field extenders cost 20 mil each. Expensive, and only worth putting on hacs and bs. Shield resist rigs cost 4 mil each though. Weapon rigs cost 5-15. Rigs are like someone has given you 3 more slots that you can choose to act as either medslots or lowslots. Very valuable.
If you don't rig prepare to lose alot more often then people who do.
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2009.06.19 20:00:00 -
[34]
I don't bother putting trimarks on my FW BS anymore, damage rigs maybe. It's most likely going to die while stuck in lag hell entering space loop, and your 60m in rigs is just a waste.
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Admiral Zhao
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Posted - 2009.06.19 21:41:00 -
[35]
it doesnt take much to make the rigs so you could make the rigs at a fraction of the cost. just to keep the costs down.
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King Rothgar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.20 04:56:00 -
[36]
Ultimately it comes down to effectiveness. The tougher your ship is, the longer it will last theoretically. So yeah, I can get an unrigged abaddon and fit it up and it will cost around 50M to lose it. Alternatively I can trimark it and it will cost 110-120M to lose it. So I can get 2x unrigged abaddons for the price of one rigged (after losing them). The problem is I can't fly 2x abaddons at the same time but I can fly a single trimarked one that is equivalent to 1.5x unrigged abaddons. Thus 1.5x abaddons in battle is better than one abaddon piloted and a second one docked. |
Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.21 03:49:00 -
[37]
If the BS is not an Abaddon or a Hyperion (tank specific BS), The secret to better survival rate is to switch an EANM or plate in your lows for an inertia stabilizer II and make up for it by putting 1 trimark or 1 core defender shield extender rig. That single inertia stab works wonders in improving your chances to warp out. Of course if it were an Abaddon or a Hyperion then tank all the way. My view anyway.
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Phantom Slave
JUDGE DREAD Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.21 08:56:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Phantom Slave on 21/06/2009 08:57:39 While rigging a BS doesn't seem like a huge advantage, look at it this way:
2 gangs meet, each with 10 Armageddons. Gang A is rigged with 3x trimarks, Gang B has no rigs to save on cost.
Rigged BS = 138k EHP (with my skills) Unrigged BS = 100k EHP (again, with my skills)
This means that:
Gang A has a total effective HP of 1,380,000 EHP. Gang B has a total effective HP of 1,000,000 EHP.
Assuming the lows, mids, and highs are all the same between the 2 gangs, Gang A will win the engagement. Gang B would have to bring 3 more BS's to have the same EHP.
*edit* And while yes, Gang A will lose more money per ship lost, they also get to loot the field which can pay for their lost rigs.
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Wrayeth
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.06.21 14:49:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 21/06/2009 14:51:38 Edited by: Wrayeth on 21/06/2009 14:51:26 Personally, I wouldn' take an unrigged BS into combat except under special circumstances, such as a kamikaze smartbombing typhoon that I'm deliberately going to be losing, anyway. Rigs can mean the difference between winning and losing a fight, survival and death.
My rule of thumb is that I generally rig anything tech 1 of battlecruiser size or large, and anything tech II of HAC/recon/HIC size or larger. I might make an exception for smaller ships if they're tech II, but I will never put the expensive rigs (trimarks, aux nano pumps, core defence field extenders or purgers, etc.) on them; instead, I use the cheap stuff, like slapping a 5 million ISK anti-EM screen reinforcer on a hawk.
EDIT: I will also rig faction ships - my phantasm, for instance, has 3 core defence field extenders, giving it 21,000 shields with the current setup on top of its two invulnerability fields. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Yourdoom
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Posted - 2009.06.21 19:18:00 -
[40]
Hello , First of all this post might be maybe a sumary or reorganising of what has been said before but here are my 2 cents.
when rigging or not i take into account the following. 1). pve 2). pvp
1). For pve it's allways rigged except for frigs. Reason is that it saved time. If you die doing pvp it means you are doing somthing wrong. Awfully wrong. Pve for most cases is really predictable. Now i'm not saying that you cant be mistaking ( or that I am not mistaking or lost ships in pve ) but then again this is the excepton not the rule. In the long term rigging adds alot and weather it gives more dmg ( them more income/min/day/month) ) either better tank -> less situations where you would have to warp out)
2). PVP. Depends alot on survivability expectations. I'll try to break it down.
a). solo/small gangs. I'd say allways rig , 15% percent in any direction might give the edge needed to break down the oponent or survive. Also when soloing you usually have the advantage of choosing when to fight, wise option would be not to choose to fight whet you cant win. True you will eventually die, but then again fighting this way unrigged will give you alot of diss-advantage.
Also to be noted is that this is usually done with hacs/recons some witch do absolutly need rigs.
b). Fleet fights. Also situational. Is it a desperate fight ? do we expect us to be 100 vs 250 ? and also what's the purpuse of the fight ? kill them all ? stall the emough so that we have time to do somthing else ? Do we expect us to have the upper hand ?
There are resosns for going cheap , going with expendable fits -> then no rigs. This is usualy with large numbers when lag makes it kind of random ( or makes it only the numbers to count )
There are cases when the numbers are somehow balanced and this is when it matters and i'd say allways rig them.
Also some rigs are more expensive. Trimarks are not the only option. rigs that go for only 1 resistence are much cheaper, and IMHO they are worth to cover that hole ( or holes ) in your tank.
As a conclusion for fleets i'd usually go rigging but with cheap rigs as in this case tactical decisions and numbers count much more that an "edge".
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Myk Jita
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Posted - 2009.06.21 21:32:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Phantom Slave Edited by: Phantom Slave on 21/06/2009 08:57:39 While rigging a BS doesn't seem like a huge advantage, look at it this way:
2 gangs meet, each with 10 Armageddons. Gang A is rigged with 3x trimarks, Gang B has no rigs to save on cost.
Rigged BS = 138k EHP (with my skills) Unrigged BS = 100k EHP (again, with my skills)
This means that:
Gang A has a total effective HP of 1,380,000 EHP. Gang B has a total effective HP of 1,000,000 EHP.
Assuming the lows, mids, and highs are all the same between the 2 gangs, Gang A will win the engagement. Gang B would have to bring 3 more BS's to have the same EHP.
*edit* And while yes, Gang A will lose more money per ship lost, they also get to loot the field which can pay for their lost rigs.
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Myk Jita
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Posted - 2009.06.21 21:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Phantom Slave Edited by: Phantom Slave on 21/06/2009 08:57:39 While rigging a BS doesn't seem like a huge advantage, look at it this way:
2 gangs meet, each with 10 Armageddons. Gang A is rigged with 3x trimarks, Gang B has no rigs to save on cost.
Rigged BS = 138k EHP (with my skills) Unrigged BS = 100k EHP (again, with my skills)
This means that:
Gang A has a total effective HP of 1,380,000 EHP. Gang B has a total effective HP of 1,000,000 EHP.
Assuming the lows, mids, and highs are all the same between the 2 gangs, Gang A will win the engagement. Gang B would have to bring 3 more BS's to have the same EHP.
*edit* And while yes, Gang A will lose more money per ship lost, they also get to loot the field which can pay for their lost rigs.
Assuming the amount of real lost ISK one gang causes the other gang to be the metric we can use to determine a winner the equation would be something like this:
X = [Lost ISK by blues + Looted ISK] - [Lost ISK by reds + Looted ISK]
If X is greater than 0 blues win, if X is less than 0 reds win.
Lost ISK = Fitting Cost + Ship Cost + Insurance Cost - Insurance Payout Fitting Cost = Modules, Ammo, Drones and Rigs.
With your above example Gang A will have the same DPS but an additional 38% more EHP. So each of Gang A's ships is about 38% more effective because they can last 38% longer and deal DPS that much longer.
Assuming that 3x Trimarks cost 60M and all other fittings for a T2 Armageddon is 60M. Gang B would have to kill at least 5 ships to break even without taking loot into consideration.
I'm not sure what the numbers on loot are so I can't estimate what the average ISK value of drops would be on a destroyed ship.
In labs I've run in RTS games if the opposing force is identical but has equal numbers but twice the strength or twice the health the lesser force will only be able to kill about 25% of the strong force. If the opposing force is of equal numbers and strength then the two forces will eliminate each other.
At equal numbers but Gang A has 38% more health Gang B might be able to kill about half of Gang A. Now there losses are equal at that point except Gang A gets the loot. Also to consider is clone costs and implant costs.
Now, if Gang B brings 2 more unrigged friends, the two force should elimate each other. 20% more dps 20% more HP compared to about 40% more HP. In that situation Gang A would lose about 1200M ISK and Gang B would lose about 720M ISK.
Just food for thought. |
Kazami Kozura
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Posted - 2009.06.24 12:30:00 -
[43]
Leaving Rig slots empty, is like leaving low slots empty -- plain stupid Its like fitting just 5 guns, cause you are out of powergrid... Just use all slots possible. Dont betray your gang mates by failfit your ship. there are enough cheap rigs out there (sensor streng, resisrigs...) 15mio for 3 rigs is better than be killed without rigs. better make it cheap and boost a secondary attribute than fit nothing and let your mates down. |
Forcerix Dragoon
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.06.24 13:19:00 -
[44]
BS are well worth rigging. Anything T1 or smaller I tend not to rig however.
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Vidi Angelus
Caldari Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:30:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Admiral Zhao it doesnt take much to make the rigs so you could make the rigs at a fraction of the cost. just to keep the costs down.
Profit margins on rigs tend to be 5% or so, Because they are so easy to make. You won't save much at all.
And if you mean using materials you've salvaged, that isn't a fraction of the cost, Its cost you the materials you used to create it, which like I said, is usually not much better than simply buying it.
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ApollyN
Balls Deep Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 10:45:00 -
[46]
Edited by: ApollyN on 26/06/2009 10:46:45 As previously said: If ppl are relying on you in a gang you need to ensure ur fitted as best possible to function in it: RR BS gangs need to be trimarked Maelstroms always get the 2 EM and 1 therm rigs for peanuts isk.
Solo/PvE can be rigged as you like
I always tend to rig my BS. An extra 10k of well resisted armour makes a BIG difference in close BS fights. Dont be cheap, you just make a weak link in ur gang and each time 60 mill of trimarks keeps you alive you just saved 30 mill+ insurance or whatever OP said for fitting ur new one especially cos I fly Tempys (primary) and have a name beginnin with A :(.
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Rhin Kaiser
New Eden Advanced Reconnaissance Unit
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Posted - 2009.06.26 12:03:00 -
[47]
Myk, I think you might be failing to consider the relative safety of the investments of a rigged vs non-rigged ship.
If you're going for PvE, rig, definitely. No question there. For PvP though, as other have said, it's your call depending on the situation. I personally lean towards no rigging on a dedicated PvP ship, but that's just me. For PvE though...
I know it's not a BS, but consider a drake. My drake rigged with three Core Defense Field Purger I's can permatank ~900 dps. That same ship and loadout without the rigs drops to ~450 dps tanked. The extra ~50 mil ISK spent greatly increases the security of your investment there. With a drake in particular, it's useless without rigs. But, if you're trying to PvP in a drake, you deserve to lose it anyways.
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Xianthar
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.27 01:54:00 -
[48]
pretty much a requirement if your involved in any decently sized 0.0 conflict as being double DD proof is critical.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.27 02:24:00 -
[49]
Seriously, what truly improves survivability in a Battleship is an Inertia Stabilizer II. There will be many times 3 seconds better align time will totally make the difference between losing your ship or not.
What does this have to do with rigs? Trimarks or Core Defence Shield Extenders or Locus Coordinators can make up for leaving off a tanking mod or a tracking enhancer in the lows for the Inertia Stabilizer II.
Math wise, if you use 1 or 2 rigs, but double your survivability with improved mobility, it is worth it, besides improving your kill/loss ratio.
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Skallebank
Minmatar Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.12 07:09:00 -
[50]
using unrigged bs's in pvp is farken stupid . just ask solar wing.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH, WHATS THAT ? |
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Xorth Adimus
Caldari The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.07.12 09:43:00 -
[51]
If you can afford them, fit them.
Rigs can often save your life in many fleets, but if you don't know how to fly/setup your ship with them don't fit them, in fact dont fly a battleship! When you lose a rigged battleship it hurts but not losing it 10 times because you knew what you where doing and had it rigged makes it worthwhile!
Rigs make ships far more usefull and flexable, they make a pretty poor ship, fun.
In a sniper/rr battleship rigs they are pretty much are the differance between life and death, you will be DDDed. If I had a trimark for everytime someone got blown up due to a lack of rigs... Mostly survivability is also more fun, noone likes to have to go home at the start of what would become an epic op because they failed to fit right. Sure you can fly back and get a spare unrigged battleship.. alone .. thru 30 0.0 systems and if you get back you may be there in time for another DDD!
However if you think the op is a suicide one take a cheaper ship not a rigged battleship!
I can't think of a single ship that wouldn't be far better with more damage/range/resist/speed/hp rigs
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Merbusent
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Posted - 2009.07.12 11:18:00 -
[52]
I use two battleships only one rigged I thought this was a good idea but recentaly I took out a trimakred tempest with slave implants with an unrigged typhoon so who knows
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Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.12 11:40:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Myra2007 on 12/07/2009 11:40:50 Due to fitting constraints most battleship pilots i know (including me) just cannot get their meds and lows filled for 2m per slot. We need internal force field arrays, c-type anps, navy eanms, fleeting webs etc. to get the benefits of t2 at reduced fitting requirements.
In lowsec/hisec crystal or slave sets are also very popular. That means no cpu-implant and you won't get a competitive fit without some of those little helpers.
Going from there i'd rather rig my battleship every time. But to each his own i guess. --
Originally by: Jasper Dark
I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
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SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.13 02:22:00 -
[54]
Iskies in wallet don't earn interest, hence there's no intrinsic reason to keep them there. If you have something better to spend the iskies on, do so. If not, why not spend them on rigs? __________________________________________________________
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