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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:15:00 -
[1]
Ah, June 17. Not just a day to celebrate the independence of our favorite country, Iceland, but a day to celebrate and reflect upon CCP Diagoras' newest dev blog! In it, Diagoras takes a look at the popularity of various ship types and starbases on the market. Full of all sorts of graphs and analysis, Diagoras' blog will surely be a hit amongst all of you market geeks. You can read it here. |
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:26:00 -
[2]
Interesting information, thanks!
When can we talk about delayed 0.0 Local and the new ships scanning tools to replace it's intel gathering functionality? CCP Zulupark was planning for something in Q1 of this year, and we're past that. Thanks! |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:39:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 17/06/2009 14:39:15 I think it is pretty common knowledge why the Typhoon is so unpopular, though I have always liked its looks and have been using one for salvage boat (very fitting for the role).
The Tempest isn't any great especially considering the poor condition of "alpha strikes". Also, I guess most would prefer a Maelstrom over a Tempest (see Clear Skies 2 for reference). |
Kane Plekkel
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:55:00 -
[4]
Nobody likes Minmatar battleships BECAUSE OF FALCON
tbh, I dunno. I've always preferred projectiles to hybrids, and armor tanking > shield tanking...perhaps its the bits of scrap they leave behind in salvage? |
Wreyn Sevet
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:01:00 -
[5]
A comparison of all of the different weapon types would be interesting, specifically with short range weapons. Tech II ammo sales might also be interesting to look at.
Happy independence day, CCP. |
Taudia
Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Taudia on 17/06/2009 16:06:39 The tempest isn't really a good sniper or RR BS, so a lot of pvpers shun it in favor of the megathron or apocalypse. This is exacerbated by it's comparably low alpha strike (arties used to be good at alphas).
The typhoon is another matter, but I think that, while it is a potent ship, it's lackluster popularity has to do with it's position as a tier 1 BS. When you have trained for typhoon, you can go towards the bigger minnie BS, which both don't require the same skills, or the minnie caps, which until recently were notorious under performers. This has a lot to do with the amount of skills it takes to fly a pvp phoon well. Usually, you'll want tank, missiles, projectile guns and heavy drones. Compared to the dominix which pretty much just needs tank and drones (and neut/nos but that is much less training) or the scorp, which just needs ECM and maybe armor taking for the usual fit, it takes a long time to train for a phoon and many players look to "graduate" to another ship before they have the skills to really fly a phoon properly. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Eclats de verre
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:18:00 -
[7]
From seeing my corpmates struggle to fit every of the ships of that blog and having fought all of those, I'll try to answer a bit about the low and high popularity.
Dominix is super popular because it's easy to make it tank very well while not loosing a bit of firepower. Not having to choose between the damage mods and the tank is a huge advantage, making the dominix tank better than other BS in most PvP situations. It's also the only BS that is really efficient when definding against a swarm of smaller ships because of the tank, the utility slots (neuts usually) and the drone bonus. Versatile, so much that it tanks better and is more efficient that much more expensive BS.
Typhoon is relatively difficult to use skill wise because of the totally split weapon systems. Only older players dare to use one. Also, the slots are split everywhere, leaving no chance of a huge shield or armor tank. It's too average in everything to be well considered by most players.
Scorpion was replaced in most EW user's mind by the recons. Wait for long term ECM changes effect to see if it needs something more. I know no caldari recon and BS user that would take it instead of a falcon or a rook in most situations (excluding long range fights that don't happen to us most of the time).
Armageddon is Amarr. It nearly says enough, I think all Amarr BS need a capacitor capacity boost, they are just so vulnerable to neuts, it's scary to fly, you don't want to fight a dominix with them! Also, ease of fitting big lasers and nos/neut makes them even less appreciated.
Raven, the name says all. Mission ships, people love missiles in missions... Its PvP popularity is much lower, I think it's more taste for PvE, choosing the damage type.
Megathron is a good ship, often tight to fit, even more since the CPU of energized adaptives was increased. Sometimes too tight, but it still works well, looks really cool, always a scary sight in PvP, and works in PvE too (harder to use than dominix, but once mastered, much faster to run a part of the missions).
Tempest is not that bad, but, you can't tank it that much. When you fit ACs, you want a MWD, using that slot ruins the shield tank, and you want a web, ruins even more the shield tank. In long range, Maelstrom does at least same and tanks better, why bother with it? Maybe in short range, maelstrom does better too... This ship needs a bit of something to be better. A turret slot might be too much, some drone space might be useless, moving slots will cause hate of half the users... Maybe it needs a medslot, straight, not removing anything? Is all game balance about number of slots or just about the ship's efficiency?
Armageddon is not bad with the new bonus, but, lacks something. Maybe capacitor as all Amarr dream every night for... But I don't know really, most people that can fly it just stopped a long time ago and didn't check it again after changes.
Well, I guess most people could say the same as I did. If those aren't good reasons for ships to be underused or overused now, maybe it's just because people got used to the ships they began using when something was even more wrong. |
Real Poison
Minmatar Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:20:00 -
[8]
"Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread."
ever read the Ships & Modules forum?
Minmatar ships are too versatile, too mediocre, too SP intense.
Amarr ships are better armor tankers. Amarr ships are better damage dealers. Gallente ships are better armor tankers. Caldari ships are better shield tankers. Caldari ships are better missile boats. Caldari ships are better EW boats. Gallente ships are better drone boats.
Split weapon system generally suck (SP-wise, 2 ammo types to carry around is a PITA) Range and damage potential of large projectiles are generally worse than other weapons. And iirc the lack of cap need for the guns is already calculated in the lower cap capacity. So no real advantage in using the cap for tanking to make up for it.
TLDR they can do almost everything, but excel at nothing.
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Because the Minmatar racial benefits of greater base speed and lower signature radius do not scale well at the battleship level. Because large projectiles fail to scale well from the smaller levels of guns. Because of successive game changes specifically designed to degrade the importance of alpha strike. Because a Minmatar specced character trained to use all three battleships well suddenly finds that it possible to cross train to use other races battleships very easily, and uses them instead as they give better options for almost all battleship roles. |
Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:41:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Areo Hotah on 17/06/2009 16:42:10 Because nobody likes split weapon systems, especially as it takes 2 years of training to by fully specced in one ship (Typhoon). Because the Tempest is by far the worst sniper BS. Because the Mael is a somewhat decent sniper, but has a useless bonus. Because large AC's and large arties are significantly worse than hybrids and even more than lasers. But hey, we can choose dmg type, so that more than makes up for it, right Zulupark ? Because velocity and sig radius are not very important for BS. Because of the low sensor strength, which was really bad in the Falcon days. Because they don't have a good missioning boat (also related to large projectiles).
And finally, because Minmatar capitals suck, so if you want a racial BS V, might as well pick a useful one.
In short: other races are much better, and in the time it takes to train for everything needed to fly a Minmatar BS properly, you might as well train for another race and weapon type.
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Damion Zyne
Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
This must be a joke.
Fix the damn Tempest but keep the Phoon like it is. It actually work when you invest enough SP. Anyone saying the Phoon is crap has no idea. Well, while your at fixing Minmatar BS please swap shield and armor HP on the Phoon. How hard can this be ??? |
Min Qa
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:59:00 -
[12]
Quote: Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
* Large projectile are just not good. Low DPS and horrible range for BS level combat. Fighting in falloff reduces damage too much for the supposed range advantage. * All the matar racial advantages (speed, sig radius) fail at the BS level. Speed and sig radius advantages are just not enough to be useful when you hit large sized ships. * Split weapon systems != versatility. Split weapon systems also need a ridiculous amount of training time to be at the same level as single weapon system ships, and don't make your ship more versatile. 4/4 turret/launcher hard points on the Typhoon is not as versatile as say 5/5 because any BS can give up a bonused high slot for a nuet/nos/cloak/etc (and many can give up an unbonused one for less of a DPS hit). |
Captain Campion
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:02:00 -
[13]
There was a graph a while back showing that Caldari and Gallente ships die a lot more than Amarr and Minmatarr ones do.
It stands to reason then, that more Caldari and Gallente ships are being traded.
Caldari are more popular, which may explain that to a certain extend. Gallente probably needs a boost. |
teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:02:00 -
[14]
Edited by: teji on 17/06/2009 17:16:19 Troll CCP Diagoras
Quote: Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Yes, there is no consensus. Could it be their terrible tank? The horrible T2 large guns? The lack of a long range sniper that isn't outclassed by every other race? The nerfing of anything that goes in the spare midslot and highslots along with scripting sensor boosters and tracking computers. The bad dual weapon systems? The craptastic Nag dread? The fact that speed doesn't matter with BS?
So many terrible things about minmatar bs that you really can't just pick one. |
ishkabibble
Rage of Inferno Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:02:00 -
[15]
*Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
LOL at CCP Diagoras trolling us, good one.
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Nice troll. Do you guys even read the forums? Do you even have to ask this?
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Liisa
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: CCP Diagoras Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
This must be a joke.
Fix the damn Tempest but keep the Phoon like it is. It actually work when you invest enough SP. Anyone saying the Phoon is crap has no idea. Well, while your at fixing Minmatar BS please swap shield and armor HP on the Phoon. How hard can this be ???
The problem with the Typhoon is that it requires a lot of different skills to fly well. The ship itself is pretty good, just that there are a lot of other battleships that fit into fleets or small gangs better than the typhoon and they are easier to train for.
Having to train gunnery, drones and missiles to get the damage output to respectable levels (don't forget the support skills) means that most people will not train specifically for the 'phoon as there will normally be another goal that is more time effective.
In my case I one day noticed that I had the skills I needed through the training for other ships and races that had slowly added up to what I considered to what I considered the minimum to fly the 'phoon well. I think I had around 60 million sps at that time and other ship options open to me so that I rarely flew the 'phoon anyway.
These days the trend towards remote repairers means that the 'phoon once again suffers as it has no utility slots free. High sp players will probably choose some other ship, like dominixes due to their drones or apocs for their nice range gate of 20 to 65? km (can't remember the max range my apoc has with pulses and scorch) with their primary armament.
Another thing to remember is that for a long time the 'phoon was the most expensive tier 1 battleship and didn't offer enough in return for it. That stigma of being "not worth it" still sticks to it to this day. |
darkmancer
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: darkmancer on 17/06/2009 17:32:57 It's a shame teir 3 bs wern't show, particually info about the Caldari's only ship of the line and the FOTM rr brick Abaddon.
I'm surprised the Falcon remains that popular I had a look at the jita market a while back and sales had seemed to fall. |
Banni Vinda
Minmatar Veto.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:32:00 -
[19]
Something to consider: just because something changes hands more often, doesn't mean it is 'better' and/or more popular. For every buyer who wants a ship, there's a seller who doesn't. OK, a (possibly significant) proportion of those sellers will be manufacturers. My point is that we're not talking about sales figures in the same terms as GM/Ford might report car sales.
Perhaps a lot of those sales for ship X happened because re-sellers routinely bought them up for re-listing at a higher price.
Also, this report doesn't consider battleships manufactured purposely for intra-corp/alliance use. These won't ever see the market.
Finally, a ship considered 'disposable' (thanks to T1 full insurance) might also see a lot of turnover. |
Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:46:00 -
[20]
Falcon is god
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: CCP Diagoras Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Nice troll. Do you guys even read the forums? Do you even have to ask this?
He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.
--Isaac |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 17/06/2009 17:49:26
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: CCP Diagoras Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
This must be a joke.
Fix the damn Tempest but keep the Phoon like it is. It actually work when you invest enough SP. Anyone saying the Phoon is crap has no idea. Well, while your at fixing Minmatar BS please swap shield and armor HP on the Phoon. How hard can this be ???
That's your opinion. The problem is everyone seem to have their own opinion, and hence, there's no concensus.
EDIT: Pwnd by my corpmate :( |
Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:21:00 -
[23]
Re: why do Minmatar battleships have the lowest trade volume?
I think it's a combination of two factors.
1. Minmatar is the 2nd to least common character race choice. Caldari and Gallente characters are significantly more popular than Amarr and Minmatar. Most people, especially new players, train for the race they started with before they train another race, which would contribute to the relatively low amount of Minmatar and Amarr battleships traded vs Caldari and Gallente. These effects are likely diminishing, as race choice during character creation is in a randomized order (Since 2005, I believe?) and the recent changes allowing stat point redistribution means that Caldari -> Achura is no longer the most preferential stat point distribution (except for the fact it is still able to achieve 3 Charisma).
2. Minmatar battleships are the least useful and most poorly perceived of the four races. This is largely a matter of opinion, but a few matters about it are fact. Large autocannons have relatively low DPS and extremely low optimal range when compared to Pulse lasers and Blasters. Using Multifrequency, Antimatter, and EMP, large turrets get about 15+10km, 4.5+13km and 3+20km respectively. Blasters have a higher base damage over time than lasers, which have a higher damage over time than autocannons. In practicality, Autocannons underperform in every respect save that they do not use capacitor to fire.
Large artillery follow a nearly identical trend, with their only redeeming factor being a slightly improved alpha strike damage. However their atrocious refire rate and clip size of 10 EMP or Tremor per 1400mm weapon makes them come up short. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:29:00 -
[24]
Quote: Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
There's probably no consensus because there's so many reasons.
Typhoon - a very good ship with the right skills. But it's unpopular because it's so skill-intensive (hence unattractive to PVEers) and, having only four turrets, has no place in a sniper fleet. Large projectiles are lacklustre, and it suffers from undeserved CPU issues when fitting Siege II and damage mods. Also, why does it have more base shield than armour?
Tempest - suffers from lacklustre DPS, range and alpha as a sniper, and from unremarkable tank and DPS as a brawler, although the utility highs and med are attractive.
Maelstrom - suffers from being an active tanker in a world of buffer tanks, and a shield tank in a world of armour remote-repping BS, because of the utterly insane CPU requirements of Shield Transfers. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:50:00 -
[25]
Hhahahahhahaha
nice refrence.
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Raivi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:52:00 -
[26]
A whole lot of us are really very surprised that you don't already know what's wrong with minmatar battleships, so the comment in the blog asking for help is going to receive a lot of ridicule, be warned in advance.
As people have said so far, there's a number of individual reasons that all contribute to the weakness of the Minmatar battleship lineup. In my opinion the most significant of these is the weapon systems themselves.
Autos: When compared to both other large shortrange weapons and to other sizes of autocannons, large autos come up lacking. This is partially because the smaller tiers of autos gain a lot of effectiveness from their low fitting cost, which is relatively less of an issue for battleships and for cruisers since you can't fit an oversized plate on a bs. I think large autos could use a rebalance check, and have their stats tweaked to bring them in line.
Artillery: Artillery is even more of a problem than autocannons, and in this case the problem comes down to range, pure and simple. Nobody who knows what they are doing uses minmatar battleships for a mixed sniper fleet. Snipers have to be able to hit at 200+km effectively, and the minmatar ships even with tech II rigs cannot keep up with Apocs or Rokhs or Megas. This can either be fixed by increasing the range of artillery significantly, or by swapping some of the falloff into optimal, or possibly by changing tracking enhancers and computers to effect both falloff and optimal. One way or another, artillery range needs to be brought into line, as the current consensus is that tempests and maelstroms are less than useless for long range sniping fleets.
For a much more comprehensive look at Minmatar ships (including more than just battleships, but feel free to focus on the battleship issues as they are by far the most pronounced and agreed upon) you can see this proposal created by former CSM member Pattern Clarc here.
I humbly beg that Minmatar battleships be added to a list of major issues that need a detailed balance look for an upcoming patch. I had honestly believed that they were already on your radar, and am somewhat dismayed to find that they are not. CCP has shown some very effective balancing abilities in the past months, please continue that streak by looking closely at Minmatar battleships and large projectiles.
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Real Poison
Minmatar Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.
--Isaac
we haven't reached page 2 and i already see consensus that they're sub-par to other races BS and the reasons are a plenty.
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Tildes own
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:01:00 -
[28]
ccp in "no ****ing idea" shocker
Originally by: Queue K'Umber It is unseemly when a player, regardless of their occupation(in-game), becomes a self-congratulatory poastaholic.
~Join the "C&P" channel ingame~ |
Zupkuck
Jovian Vigilantes Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:06:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Zupkuck on 17/06/2009 19:07:05 Utterly unbelievable... the community has been talking about the disparities between Minmatar battleships and the other races' for years now.
Likewise with Large Projectiles.
Wait to fail, CCP.
Oh, and fix the Muninn too while you're at it. If you're at it. PLEASE be at it.
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irion felpamy
Minmatar HellJumpers Corp
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:12:00 -
[30]
The minnie BS suck thats the reason there are less traded. Mystery solved.
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