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Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:56:00 -
[1]
I though that this was not supposed to happen; that w-space with POS would be hard to supply etc.,etc.,etc., I just started scanning and found this: nullFirst Part Second Part
What about a rebalancing to make stuff like this harder? or are new pilots going to be shut out again?
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Mr Management
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Posted - 2009.06.17 15:27:00 -
[2]
You know what thinking does to people ....
The deeper you go, from class 1 to 6 the harder it is ....
/me looks around to see what the problem is ....
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 15:58:00 -
[3]
Am I getting old or is it practically impossible to make out anything in those pics?
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jagoff
Cosmic Cakes
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:07:00 -
[4]
how are new pilots getting shut out? you can still enter and enjoy wh space with a pos in it.
in fact, wh space with a pos is an awesome thing if you enjoy griefing.
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Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2009.06.18 05:55:00 -
[5]
The point is this w-space was not supposed to become 0.0 and corps were not supposed to be able to set up large presences and effectively gain soverinity.(as I can see from a few of the comments seems to be the actual intent.) I've scanned down about a dozen w-space since then and in none of them have I been alone. Of the 12, 11 had POS in them. I noticed on one of them that the corp members (funny how people name ships with their own names) had +5 security but the corps itself had negative to all empire factions, just a bit like -1, obviously the members ratted to get their security status up, they didn't run missions or the corp stats would be much more positive.... a sure sign of 0.0 alts taking control of w-space.
This is my whole point, CCP is not being fair or diligent in balancing this for the newer or occasional players. If they don't correct this then what is the point.... this then becomes just another 0.0 space.
I vehemently disagree with how CCP has currently set up w-space. It is tilted toward the large 0.0 type of experience and leaves the noob and occasional player out in the cold once again.
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Kendar
Gallente Disney inc
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Posted - 2009.06.18 05:59:00 -
[6]
Make larger screens please
And i dont understand your complaint, if someone set up a pos in w-space its stil possible for other people to be there and do their business. Pos can't gain sov in W-space
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Barton Foley
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Posted - 2009.06.18 06:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Reangorette Bianie This is my whole point, CCP is not being fair or diligent in balancing this for the newer or occasional players. If they don't correct this then what is the point.... this then becomes just another 0.0 space.
I vehemently disagree with how CCP has currently set up w-space. It is tilted toward the large 0.0 type of experience and leaves the noob and occasional player out in the cold once again.
What? Seriously, what the hell. You're an idiot. No giant alliance can control w-space. Just because a POS is in-system doesn't mean you can't run sites in there. If you see other people's ships on scan, then you need to be ready for them to show up and pewpew you - but you can still run sites. Is this something you object to? Do you want w-space to be suger-coated candy-land like empire L4 missions?
No one has sov in w-space. No one 'controls' all of w-space. (I would wager in fact that there are still systems that haven't been touched by a single player.) W-space is very balanced and very available for everyone, since entrances to it are dynamic, not static, and therefore can't be camped (except on the inside). And if someone wants to live in a system and camp the entrances, well, it's their system unless you bring a gang and kick them out. That's precisely what benefits smaller entities; there's a mass limitation on wormholes, so a resident corp can over time build up a substantial presence inside whereas a raiding corp is limited severely in what they can throw into the fray.
Anyone with a probe launcher can go into w-space, run sites, and come out again. The limiting factor is your ability to complete the sites and come out alive, safe from the depredations of Sleepers and other players. If you object to risk... ugh. I'm typing a huge post here and you are probably too stupid or obstinate to be affected by it at all.
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Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.06.18 06:40:00 -
[8]
Some of those POSs you find may even be offline because their owners either abandoned them or got pew-pewed by someone else while outside the POS.
I find it amusing when I pop a word into local and 5 BS warp to me on the wormhole. |
Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2009.06.18 07:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Agent Known Some of those POSs you find may even be offline because their owners either abandoned them or got pew-pewed by someone else while outside the POS.
I find it amusing when I pop a word into local and 5 BS warp to me on the wormhole.
I have it from a good source that this was not an abandoned POS as not were the others. When there are a multitude of ships present it is not abandoned, and if there is action it is not abandoned |
Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2009.06.18 07:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Barton Foley
Originally by: Reangorette Bianie This is my whole point, CCP is not being fair or diligent in balancing this for the newer or occasional players. If they don't correct this then what is the point.... this then becomes just another 0.0 space.
I vehemently disagree with how CCP has currently set up w-space. It is tilted toward the large 0.0 type of experience and leaves the noob and occasional player out in the cold once again.
What? Seriously, what the hell. You're an idiot. No giant alliance can control w-space. Just because a POS is in-system doesn't mean you can't run sites in there. If you see other people's ships on scan, then you need to be ready for them to show up and pewpew you - but you can still run sites. Is this something you object to? Do you want w-space to be suger-coated candy-land like empire L4 missions?
No one has sov in w-space. No one 'controls' all of w-space. (I would wager in fact that there are still systems that haven't been touched by a single player.) W-space is very balanced and very available for everyone, since entrances to it are dynamic, not static, and therefore can't be camped (except on the inside). And if someone wants to live in a system and camp the entrances, well, it's their system unless you bring a gang and kick them out. That's precisely what benefits smaller entities; there's a mass limitation on wormholes, so a resident corp can over time build up a substantial presence inside whereas a raiding corp is limited severely in what they can throw into the fray.
Anyone with a probe launcher can go into w-space, run sites, and come out again. The limiting factor is your ability to complete the sites and come out alive, safe from the depredations of Sleepers and other players. If you object to risk... ugh. I'm typing a huge post here and you are probably too stupid or obstinate to be affected by it at all.
I generally don't reply to trolls but I just love "you are an idiot."
Perhaps a bit of thought. There is a POS in the system with a lot a ships. They are from a large corps(that means many members). I suppose they enjoy the graphics a lot and just drink cola all day long.
Anyone notice the word which was not quoted "effectively" as in to effectively control w-space. That means for the unitiated that one uses the game mechanics at hand to achieve beyond what might have been intended. I don't have to have all the game mechanics of 0.0 at my disposal in order to "effectively" achieve sovernity. I merely need to "gank" everyone in the w-space I am in. Kind of like when real life nations "colonize" other "peoples."
Now I don't know about you, but I don't like to be "colonized."
And, "have a nice day, drink your cola up now"
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Barton Foley
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Posted - 2009.06.18 08:20:00 -
[11]
I don't quite get the reference to cola, or where your smug attitude is coming from.
So if I have read your post correctly, you are complaining about the fact that people in w-space systems have the ability to attack you. HOLY GOD NOES! The horror! Well no sh!t sherlock, if someone wants to fight you and you don't want to fight them then I guess they control the system. It's nosec space, not an empire L4 mission. There is risk for the reward. You don't want w-space, you want a variation on completely safe highsec missioning. If you disagree, post why and don't prevaricate or go off into ad-hominim.
Put simply, might makes right. If a corp gets into a system and has enough dudes online all the time who want to live in the system 23/7 and are eager to shoot anyone they see on their directional scanners, then yes, they own it. But they don't own all of w-space. Poke around enough, and you'll find a system without a POS. Or hell, pick a system WITH a POS, set up your own, and start ambushing the other people every time you see them. Not every POS means that a pack of slavering pvpers lurks in the wormhole... it could be one or two people in Drakes. (FYI ships on scanner does not mean that people are logged on.)
Additionally, w-space is geared towards smaller nomadic entities, since a system doesn't support many people. I personally live in a Class 2 (with a POS) and by myself I kill everything that spawns in my system and in a Class 1 that I always get a wormhole to. This takes about two hours tops, usually less. That's one person handling two systems. I could also probably handle Class 3s solo in a Drake. Please tell me where the incentive is to pile large amounts of people into a single system, because I'm clearly missing it.
My point in this is that there's no reason for large amounts of pvp-inclined people to live in w-space, since the target list is small and the NPC-related content doesn't support more than a few people. Unless they like ladar and grav sites, and that doesn't strike me as something that appeals to a pewpew-minded individual. So 'control' of a system is usually accomplished by around 3-5 people, since that's all that a Class 1-3 system can support at the most. You don't strike me as an individual who has much experience with corp-scale operations, so I do not mention higher than Class 3, as you will never go into those.
TL;DR: stop whining about PVP in w-space. It's not empire L4 missioning and shouldn't be. Get some friends to back you up or keep looking for an empty system (which are not hard to find, I've seen dozens of empty Class 1 and 2 systems).
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
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Posted - 2009.06.18 12:45:00 -
[12]
Alright hands up whoever it was that ganked the OP in wormhole space? |
Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Scorpanti Corporation
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Posted - 2009.06.18 14:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Marchocias Alright hands up whoever it was that ganked the OP in wormhole space?
.o/
Sorry, my bad. |
Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
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Posted - 2009.06.18 14:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot
Originally by: Marchocias Alright hands up whoever it was that ganked the OP in wormhole space?
.o/
Sorry, my bad.
Bad!? If indeed you did pop him, nice work fella! |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.06.18 15:40:00 -
[15]
i have scanned 7 wormhole in empire today.
6 of 7 had poses in them , in 5 there was no resources , all stripped down. You are saying it is ok ?.
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lo breeze
LB's Hole Mongers
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Posted - 2009.06.18 16:27:00 -
[16]
Edited by: lo breeze on 18/06/2009 16:31:31 New players can set up POS's also.
How would you make it harder? Whats to rebalance?
Did you honestly think it would be crazy hard to fuel a POS that always has a connection to High sec? Oh noes, I gotta fly like 10 jumps to get fuel... WHAT AM I GUNNA DOOOO? sadface
If you moved all the entrances to Losec you would immediately get the same damn whine. "Waaah waaah you're forcing players into losec too many "
EDIT:
I have two POS's set up in a WH. Your tears are delicious.
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Moose Balzak
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Posted - 2009.06.18 17:11:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Moose Balzak on 18/06/2009 17:14:19 Edited by: Moose Balzak on 18/06/2009 17:11:21 WH are not the same as 0.0. But they are a nice change of pace for medium sized corps/alliances who want to get out of the cesspool that is empire, and are done with all the drama crap that comes with the big alliances. This is a perspective from being in a C5 WH.
They have their own unique challenges, so let me help you. -- Logistics nightmare -- nothing available, so you have to bring everything in or build it onsite. Everything. No Jump bridges, Jumpclones, no "jump" anything. -- If your corp is minimally active--you end up with nothing is system after about a week. You do get spawns but they are pretty infrequent. To survive, you must travel to adjacent WHs... -- No local, plenty of pew pew. You must scan all the time. -- Great mining belts -- when they appear, but very little trit -- so add that to the list of stuff you need to import to build BS's etc. -- Gas Mining sucks. -- No complexes in the traditional sense where you can farm away for the big dollar items. -- If you go into a site with "just enough" people and someone disconnects in your RR gang or if someone pooches something and triggers an early spawn -- the failure cascade can be staggering. -- Less profitable than running Level 4 missions. Period. Then figure in ship losses and POS fuel. -- Lots of shared assets, no individual hangers -- add in some drama for that. -- If everyone gets popped...you lose your entire operation. It will run out of fuel before you find your way back. So yes, you better have some back up scanning alts in your WH. -- No real rat bounties. No belt rats, basically little to no "solofarming" of anything. Nothing that a corp can tax either. You can solo the low level stuff, but good luck soloing a Sentinel BS. -- Radar and Mag sites are infrequent enough that you spend half your time mining gas or mining roids. -- You can build ships on site, but cant insure them. You can leave the WH with them and insure them, but that uses up mass on the WH exits/entries--not very efficient use of your WH exits. -- If you dont have enough corpmates on to tackle the more dangerous sites -- there is very little to do. -- Scanning is ok. But having to scan all the time for everything -- sucks. -- In the deeper WHs you can spend days doing nothing but scanning for a way out. -- Gas mining is less profitable than mining veldspar in almost all cases. Gas mining sucks more than mining ice. Period. There are no ice belts. Again, Gas mining sucks.
Bottom Line: Less profitable and far more hassels than running Level 4s in High sec.
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lo breeze
LB's Hole Mongers
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Posted - 2009.06.18 18:50:00 -
[18]
Very little Tritanium in the belts? Really? Multiple 150k chunks of Veld is very little?
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.06.18 19:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: lo breeze Very little Tritanium in the belts? Really? Multiple 150k chunks of Veld is very little?
From a core grav site: Mercoxit: 15k Arkonor: 40k Bistot: 60k Crokite: 60k Dark Ochre: 50k Gneisis: 80k Hed: 200k Hemo: 270k Jaspet: 470k Kernite: 500k Omber: 400k Plagio: 460k Pyrox: 525k Scrod: 415k Spod: 200k Veld: 1m
1m veld is just over 3m trit. There are enough high-ends in that field to make several capships, but not enough trit to make 1 battleship. So yes, comparatively little trit compared with everything else. Not that that's a problem unless you're building ships in WH space for some reason.
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lo breeze
LB's Hole Mongers
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:17:00 -
[20]
There is more than enough Veld to replace ammo, frigs, modules, etc. If you were building carriers/dreads out there you could always bring in a freighter or two full of tritanium. Just wait till you get a suitable wormhole to your alliances home space. Could be a day, could be a week. Not too difficult to wait IMO.
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Nite Meld
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Posted - 2009.06.18 22:39:00 -
[21]
personnaly i think wh space is great, except, maybe this is just my expirence, but i have lived in 3 systems now with a pos, lvl1,2, and 3. each time we mine what we can then the roids disappear, then it takes like 10 days for any new roids to appear and usally all the gas site disappear at the same time as well as only having 1 or 2 plexes to kill sleepers, now it is a logistical nightmare to keep a pos fueled and going and i have found many systems with out pos in them so we move almost every week now. What i would like to see is at least static roids, make them respawn what u mine every 5 days and u still have to scan them down, but at least there always there and at least there is always something to mine, other wise there is no point and i just go back to making crummy money by mining veld all the time
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Herzog Wolfhammer
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Posted - 2009.06.18 22:59:00 -
[22]
W Space is not an ISK pump.
There are better reasons to be there.
IF people want to hang out in there with the cost of a POS just to go Jan Brady on any noobs that wander in, that's their problem, their loss.
Lest the noobs grief back and just start living in there, and triggering despawn timers.
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Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2009.06.19 00:38:00 -
[23]
Quote: " ...then I guess they control the system...I personally live in a Class 2 (with a POS) and by myself I kill everything that spawns in my system and in a Class 1 that I always get a wormhole to... "
So this is an isk farm. You concede my point about wormhole "possession" in the first 3 paragraphs.
But farming in hi sec missions has penalty costs; what you gain in isk is lost to the missed opportunities of making better isk timewise; but what is his lost opportunity here? I don't see any. His only cost is defending his space and ruining opportunity for others therby gaining an infinite "isk farm." Unless w-space was so designed to collapse on itself and destroy the "isk farm" (and it isn't)there is none.
"TL;DR: stop whining about PVP in w-space..."
Not all complaints are self-pitying and complaining about an ill-balanced area of the game that currently tilts towards the more experienced and larger organized, eliminates exploration from the very people that CCP said this was geared to.
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Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2009.06.19 00:39:00 -
[24]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 i have scanned 7 wormhole in empire today.
6 of 7 had poses in them , in 5 there was no resources , all stripped down. You are saying it is ok ?.
This is my point exactly.
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Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2009.06.19 00:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nite Meld ...other wise there is no point and i just go back to making crummy money by mining veld all the time
Don't mean to be inconsiderate but crummy money mining veld?
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Nite Meld
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Posted - 2009.06.19 00:49:00 -
[26]
Don't mean to be inconsiderate but crummy money mining veld?
compared to mining arkonor or bistot, yes |
Tauranon
Gallente Wandering Provocateurs Communitas
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Posted - 2009.06.19 07:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Reangorette Bianie
Quote: " ...then I guess they control the system...I personally live in a Class 2 (with a POS) and by myself I kill everything that spawns in my system and in a Class 1 that I always get a wormhole to... "
So this is an isk farm. You concede my point about wormhole "possession" in the first 3 paragraphs.
But farming in hi sec missions has penalty costs; what you gain in isk is lost to the missed opportunities of making better isk timewise; but what is his lost opportunity here? I don't see any. His only cost is defending his space and ruining opportunity for others therby gaining an infinite "isk farm." Unless w-space was so designed to collapse on itself and destroy the "isk farm" (and it isn't)there is none.
About as misinformed as it gets. You can run hisec missions all day long, the fountain never stops, and you can run them the moment you logon, which is not true of W-space, even if you live there.
If you POS a W-space system, you'll soon discover that there are numerous real shiploss risks, the ships at risk are rigged, and therefore insurance is not a full cover, it requires scanning overhead, pos fuel overhead. It also requires teamwork overhead, which implies gang formation overheads, including such annoyances as "not enough people logged on to even do anything - no ISK for you today".
Individual systems don't spawn more than a couple of sigs per day. Its not uncommon for us to spend 2-3 days with nothing other than a token ladar (time consuming and worthless to farm) and the exit hole spawning. Technically we have to get out and scan and explore every day to find anything like mission runner income.
Add to that, exit hole mass and timer limits are a real problem. If you have more than about 10 actives in corp, you are going to run into WH management problems. Even something as dumb as replacing a gang-member who has to log, can just cause mass problems such that its just not doable. Everyone has to come back, and sit on the beach, because there is no mass left for another BS passage, and the home system is empty - because it doesn't spawn anything like enough resources for 10 people.
The more actives you have, the more likely you are to lose track of the precise mass state of your exit hole, the less likely you are to be able to safely collapse it. Every time your corp has to collapse a hole, everyone is on the beach waiting for scanning to be done. Carting stuff to empire to sell is a *****. You need the guy with the itty V logged on, on the day that the highsec route is found etc. Same goes for fuel.
Quote:
"TL;DR: stop whining about PVP in w-space..."
Not all complaints are self-pitying and complaining about an ill-balanced area of the game that currently tilts towards the more experienced and larger organized, eliminates exploration from the very people that CCP said this was geared to.
On the contrary, it does what I think is intended, in that it limits the ability of organisations with 5000 actives, to about 9 actives in BS sized ships in any one 1 WH, or larger swarms of smaller ships, which enables organisations with 10-15 actives to compete for resources. Seriously if you can't scratch up 10 actives, you are playing the wrong game. When I left WoW it was dictating 25 actives for serious content...
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.06.19 07:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tauranon On the contrary, it does what I think is intended, in that it limits the ability of organisations with 5000 actives, to about 9 actives in BS sized ships in any one 1 WH...
Technically there is no limit on the active tonnage in a w-space system, regardless of the limits on the entry wormholes. If you can get a control tower and the appropriate assembly arrays in, you can manufacture ships that won't fit through the wormhole. Then you get dozens of people to come through in pods, and you can spend the rest of your life stomping on whoever tries sneaking into that system.
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Ashmira Wintereyes
Caldari Free Spirits
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Posted - 2009.06.19 08:10:00 -
[29]
On a sidenote to the whole discussion, i think it would be a good thing when CCP decides to enter a proposal into the game which they stated was looked into seriously, namely 'hacking' or taking control of abbandoned/ran out of fuel pos'es.
I've found 3 inactive Pos'es till today in w-space but cant do **** with it except blowing it up IF i have the firepower, but as an explorer im mostly solo and dont have the time/power to do that (and why would i)
I have no problems with POS's inside w-space , but who knows i might change my opinion about that when i lost more ships then one can count due to 'presence to kill without penalties' only occupied w-space instead of making use of what they where intended for, namely exploration and all.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.19 09:37:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Hyveres on 19/06/2009 09:38:54 well the real fun part is that WH size limitations means you cannot bring in a fleet to wipe out pos's in an effective way.
Even inactive towers survive due to the mass constraints. Since bringin in a fleet to take them down is simply too much effort. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
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