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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:19:00 -
[1]
[PROPOSAL] Warp Scrambler.
The recent changes to Warp Scramblers have made them too overpowered IMHO. I suggest a small change to decrease their power to something more inline and correct.
Change the Warp Scramblers ability to disable RE-activation of MWD instead of immediate shutdown. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Admiral IceBlock
Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:20:00 -
[2]
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Wai Ng'Tse
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:22:00 -
[3]
this mod has ruined gallente blaster boats, ruined minmatar close range boats.
It's forcing people to fit an afterburner, a 5th "mandatory" med slot module.
Tier 1 ceptors have become more useful in fleets than tier 2 ceptors because of this change too.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:26:00 -
[4]
No. No one is forcing you to fit an afterburner. Before scram changes a 90% web also meant you werent going anywhere and it had more range.
The gallente blaster boats with most issues are the megathron and the hyperion, especially the mega, but also the hype, dont have any serious problems reaching the 9km scram range (and that is not realistic that you are at exactly 9km). Tracking is their problem, not range.
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orgon34
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:26:00 -
[5]
why don't we just put them back to 2 points, that's it. Stupid freaking change
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Furb Killer No. No one is forcing you to fit an afterburner. Before scram changes a 90% web also meant you werent going anywhere and it had more range.
The gallente blaster boats with most issues are the megathron and the hyperion, especially the mega, but also the hype, dont have any serious problems reaching the 9km scram range (and that is not realistic that you are at exactly 9km). Tracking is their problem, not range.
When webifiers were 90%, you at least had a chance to drift off. With the Warp Scrambler change, it's instantdeath! Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Wai Ng'Tse
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Furb Killer No. No one is forcing you to fit an afterburner. Before scram changes a 90% web also meant you werent going anywhere and it had more range.
The gallente blaster boats with most issues are the megathron and the hyperion, especially the mega, but also the hype, dont have any serious problems reaching the 9km scram range (and that is not realistic that you are at exactly 9km). Tracking is their problem, not range.
Of course no one is forcing you to put an afterburner on, dont be stupid.
But it's another mod you ideally dont want to leave the station without. Along with a scrambler, a web, an mwd and a cap injector.
Lets put it this way:
A megathron with 2 1600 plates and 3 trimarks (seems fairly normal to me) goes 822 m/s with an mwd
When it's webbed with 90% that's: 10% * 822 = 82.2 m/s top speed.
When it's scrambled and webbed with 60% web its top speed is 116m/s, that's: 40% * 116 = 46.4 m/s
That's almost 50% of the speed of a 90% web.
So that's the problem with the current situation.
OK?
(got the speeds from EFT with all lv 5 char) |
Shinnen
Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.27 20:38:00 -
[8]
supported, fix this **** mod |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.27 21:45:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 27/06/2009 21:45:38
Originally by: Wai Ng'Tse
Originally by: Furb Killer No. No one is forcing you to fit an afterburner. Before scram changes a 90% web also meant you werent going anywhere and it had more range.
The gallente blaster boats with most issues are the megathron and the hyperion, especially the mega, but also the hype, dont have any serious problems reaching the 9km scram range (and that is not realistic that you are at exactly 9km). Tracking is their problem, not range.
Of course no one is forcing you to put an afterburner on, dont be stupid.
But it's another mod you ideally dont want to leave the station without. Along with a scrambler, a web, an mwd and a cap injector.
Lets put it this way:
A megathron with 2 1600 plates and 3 trimarks (seems fairly normal to me) goes 822 m/s with an mwd
When it's webbed with 90% that's: 10% * 822 = 82.2 m/s top speed.
When it's scrambled and webbed with 60% web its top speed is 116m/s, that's: 40% * 116 = 46.4 m/s
That's almost 50% of the speed of a 90% web.
So that's the problem with the current situation.
OK?
(got the speeds from EFT with all lv 5 char)
I replied in the other topic.
And no one fits both mwd and ab, you just basicly dont ever need it, and if you need it, it isnt worth the downsides. |
Mister Ivory
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Posted - 2009.06.27 22:04:00 -
[10]
Scrams are great the way they are now. Makes nano turds think before coming in range. I am glad that made that change and 100% back it up. Keep up the good work on this one ccp.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.06.28 01:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mister Ivory Scrams are great the way they are now. Makes nano turds think before coming in range. I am glad that made that change and 100% back it up. Keep up the good work on this one ccp.
This ^^. Scrams turning off MWD's actually made AB's worth using in pvp. And as it is, lots of people STILL think that AB's are a lolfit.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.06.28 02:54:00 -
[12]
The whole Great Speed Nerf patch was a horrible design change. I still have trouble understanding how that monstrosity was allowed to go through. And considering that it has, I don't believe there's any hope left in talking sense into CCP. It's over, we lost
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Wasted Skillpoints
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Posted - 2009.06.28 04:54:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Wasted Skillpoints on 28/06/2009 04:54:53
Originally by: orgon34 why don't we just put them back to 2 points, that's it. Stupid freaking change
Yep, no positives came with this change.
Afterburners are are still lolfits 99% of the time.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Coalition of Free Stars
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Posted - 2009.06.28 05:13:00 -
[14]
The speed nerf had a lot of dumb parts, but this was one of the good ones. Scrams used to be lolfits, now there's actually a decision to be made. This proposal is not bad, per se, but it's unnecessary, and I dislike tiny changes, just because they're hard for players to keep up with.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.06.28 14:31:00 -
[15]
So, what's the difference in terms of speed between an old 90% web and a warp scrambler?
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.28 14:36:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 28/06/2009 14:36:38
Originally by: Gypsio III So, what's the difference in terms of speed between an old 90% web and a warp scrambler?
Did you fail first grade? Read the thread.
Quoting what should've been obvious:
Quote: A megathron with 2 1600 plates and 3 trimarks (seems fairly normal to me) goes 822 m/s with an mwd
When it's webbed with 90% that's: 10% * 822 = 82.2 m/s top speed.
When it's scrambled and webbed with 60% web its top speed is 116m/s, that's: 40% * 116 = 46.4 m/s
That's almost 50% of the speed of a 90% web.
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M Blanc
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Posted - 2009.06.28 15:18:00 -
[17]
Wouldn't the better solution here be to boost ABs such that they're not unusable on ships other than frigates? |
Phantom Slave
JUDGE DREAD Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.29 07:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Wai Ng'Tse Of course no one is forcing you to put an afterburner on, dont be stupid.
But it's another mod you ideally dont want to leave the station without. Along with a scrambler, a web, an mwd and a cap injector.
Lets put it this way:
A megathron with 2 1600 plates and 3 trimarks (seems fairly normal to me) goes 822 m/s with an mwd
When it's webbed with 90% that's: 10% * 822 = 82.2 m/s top speed.
When it's scrambled and webbed with 60% web its top speed is 116m/s, that's: 40% * 116 = 46.4 m/s
That's almost 50% of the speed of a 90% web.
So that's the problem with the current situation.
OK?
(got the speeds from EFT with all lv 5 char)
You're comparing a single modules effect (90% web) to 2 modules effects (scram + 60% web). If you want to compare apples to apples then you should have 2 x 90% webs in your first example. |
Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2009.06.29 12:30:00 -
[19]
I completely endorse this new feature of warp scramblers. I don't think it undermines gallente blaster boats at all. This is a whole new way to deal with nano f4gs and the arazu/lachesis now make an excellent tackler in this sense.
I also agree that the person who stated the difference from before and after with webs/scrams was comparing 2 mods against 1. You do in fact need to consider that you've got 2 propulsion jamming mods there.
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.06.29 15:56:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Rajere on 29/06/2009 16:01:23
Originally by: Phantom Slave
Originally by: Wai Ng'Tse Of course no one is forcing you to put an afterburner on, dont be stupid.
But it's another mod you ideally dont want to leave the station without. Along with a scrambler, a web, an mwd and a cap injector.
Lets put it this way:
A megathron with 2 1600 plates and 3 trimarks (seems fairly normal to me) goes 822 m/s with an mwd
When it's webbed with 90% that's: 10% * 822 = 82.2 m/s top speed.
When it's scrambled and webbed with 60% web its top speed is 116m/s, that's: 40% * 116 = 46.4 m/s
That's almost 50% of the speed of a 90% web.
So that's the problem with the current situation.
OK?
(got the speeds from EFT with all lv 5 char)
You're comparing a single modules effect (90% web) to 2 modules effects (scram + 60% web). If you want to compare apples to apples then you should have 2 x 90% webs in your first example.
Here's a more detailed comparison regarding the scram/web changes. Mind you a battleship is the worst example to use a) because they're not fast enough to worry about decreasing their speed that much, using multiple propulsion reduction modules is usually used vs smaller ships which are fast enough to either run away or evade damage otherwise, battleships aren't going anywhere; and b) because the impact of the changes primarily impact engagements between ships of different size classes, ie it allows smaller ships to fight inside 10km of larger ships without exploding the moment they are webbed, and to check that, the next step up from a battleship is a Dreadnought. Alas:
dual 1600 plated, triple trimarked Megathron (ehp total also includes DC II, 2xEANM II's) technically max mwd speed was higher pre-patch but I don't feel like looking it up, besides it's not relevant when measuring the impact of the scram/web changes Max mwd speed: 822m/s, sig radius: 2400m2
Pre-patch 2x 90% webbed speed: 18m/s, sig radius: 2400m2 Impact on Mobility: 2% of max MWD speed Impact on Tracking: Ion Siege Blaster Cannons from a sieged Moros @ 7.5km range from the megathron each have an 84.5% chance to hit, 3xIons deal 36.5k raw damage per volley (every 6.5 seconds) before hit quality is factored in (actual damage increases ~35% when chance to hit is around 85%). factoring in hit chance and hit quality, the megathron explodes in 13 seconds on the 3rd turret volley. The MWD cycle itself lasts for 10 seconds, so depending on when during the mwd cycle the megathron was webbed, unless he was able to deactivate the MWD in time, it's possible the megathron explodes before he can do anything about it. This is simply from turrets, it does not include any drone damage from the Moros.
Post-patch scrambled + 60% webbed speed: 46m/s, sig radius 400m2 Impact on Mobility: 5.5% of max MWD speed Impact on Tracking: Ion Siege Blaster Cannons from a sieged Moros @ 7.5km range from the megathron each have a 6.6x10^-18... basicallly 0% chance to hit. VS the same Moros out of siege, Ion Siege Blasters have an 80% chance to hit, dealing ~750 dps after factoring in hit chance and hit quality, which is less turret DPS than the Megathron. The Megathron explodes after 2 minutes & 41 seconds (again ignoring drone dps) allowing plenty of time for the mega to fly out of scram/web range of the Moros if he so chooses.
Note: this ignores the massive impact that webs have on a ship's inertia and ability to turn, change directions, etc.
The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR |
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van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.29 16:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rajere stuff...
In short: not only did ships move slower while dual-webbed pre-patch, they also did it with a signature the size of a whole planet.
Webs, Scrams, MWDs and Afterburners became a lot more interesting post-patch.
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.29 20:00:00 -
[22]
The issue is really that warp scrambler is OVERPOWERED in the way that it immediatly shuts down the MWD. A more balanced effect would be for it to disable RE-activation of the MWD instead; giving the pilot at least minor chance to get out depending on how long he is into his activation.
Want to know more? |
sushistrip
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Posted - 2009.06.29 20:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock The issue is really that warp scrambler is OVERPOWERED in the way that it immediatly shuts down the MWD. A more balanced effect would be for it to disable RE-activation of the MWD instead; giving the pilot at least minor chance to get out depending on how long he is into his activation.
Agreed
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