|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6916
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
AFK Cloaking isn't a mechanic.
The mechanic that is causing your problems is local. That's what needs to be fixed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6918
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:ahahahahahahaha
no AFK cloaking couldn't exist without local. The reason people get aggravated is because local shows them that someone is there and they overreact to this information. Local is providing too much intel for too little (i.e. no) work.
The entire GÇ£problemGÇ¥ of AFK cloaking resides in the existence of local and is an artefact of this defect. To GÇ£fixGÇ¥ AFK cloaking, the defect in local has to be removed (alternatively, you can just stop thinking of it as a problem).
By the way, removing local as an intel tool is part of the CCP 5-year-planGäóGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6918
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:oh man I love it when people bring the botting argument in favor of removing local Personally, I love it when people cannot formulate a good argument and just barf out a pointless GǣnoGǥ for no good reasonGǪ
And anyway, local is what's causing AFK cloaking, so that's where the GÇ£fixGÇ¥ needs to happen. It doesn't have to be removed, as such GÇö it just have to stop providing instant and infallible intel to all and sundry. The best solution so far remains the idea that cloaking removes you from local, in both senses: you cannot be seen in the local user list, and you cannot see the local user list. If you want to do something non-AFK, you will have to expose yourself and/or spend a lot of time finding absolutely nothing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6918
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:What you're suggesting here only serves to indicate whether a person is a threat, by their presence on local or not a threat, by their lack of presence on local. No. You can be present in local and not be a threat, and you can be absent from local and still be a threat. It means cloaking your ship actually cloaks your ship, and that this is a double-blind (or, not entirelyGǪ one-and-three-quarters-blind maybe) state. If you want to find a target for your bombing run, you have to manually warp around (and risk being uncloaked) or use probes (and be spotted on dscan). Yes, you can still use dscan to look for people, but there's a limit to what you can do with that information and what it actually includes.
It increases the stakes on both sides of the fence: people can no longer tell whether a cloaker is in the system (AFK or not GÇö it doesn't matter), but a cloaker can also no longer tell that there are any targets in the systemGǪ or whether they have backup. It provides buffs and nerfs to both sides: the psychological warfare of just being there is gone GÇö you have to actually prove that you're active for it to work, but baiting any such potential attackers is also much easier.
The psychological factor having an unknown neut/red in local is replaced (on both sides) by the psychological factor of inherently being unable to determine whether anyone is watching or notGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Yes let's add risk-free easymode PvP for everyone who bothers to train Electronics V and Cloaking IV Yes, because losing the ability to spot targets easily and having no idea what you might encounter should you choose to attack is both risk-free and easymode.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Finding the targets would be no problem when you're in a ship that can scan 100% sites (anoms) while cloaked, scout belts out and maintain itself entirely undetectable while sitting at, say, a cyno beacon or jump bridge. Oh, you mean those things you have to warp to and risk being uncloaked, and having to do all of that because there is no longer any way to tell whether there are any targets around or notGǪ?
GǪand even then, not being sure what it is you're going to encounter.
What you're describing can already be done, but local makes it easier and faster since you know whether it's worth doing at all. So yeah, no. Not easymode and not risk-free, since you're only ever losing the ability to predict your encounter.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:That uncertainty is entirely offset by the fact that only you dictate when you engage. GǪwhich you already can, and which doesn't remove that uncertainty since the whole point is that you inherently don't have enough information to make a fully informed decision any more, so it's not actually offset at all. Dictating when you engage helps when you can pick the best opportunity to strike GÇö with the added uncertainty, you no longer can.
You're arguing that having less information at your disposal makes things easier and less risky. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:okay and how would the target be able to determine whether he's about to get warped onto or not The same way as now. In other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:oh yeah i forgot that there is no ship in the game with the ability to warp cloaked GǪin other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode. Quite the opposite since you have less information available as far as what it is you're warping to.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Local is not the broken mechanic here. What is broken is people's perception of a perceived threat. Well duh. But what's causing that perception is local, and if they to solve that GÇ£problemGÇ¥, local is where the GÇ£fixGÇ¥ needs to happen.
GǪof course, the real reason for their complaining is that they want to be able to get more information GÇö not that the information they already have is too much and too cheap to get. The funny part is presenting a solution to the problem they claim they have and see how horrified they are at the mere thought of it, thus demonstrating quite clearly that the problem isn't at all what they say it is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:I don't have a problem with AFK cloaking, the problem is when people suggest removing local as a solution because that's just stupid beyond belief GǪexcept it solves the problem completely since it removes AFK cloaking, both in terms of removing the practical application of it on the GÇ£attacker'sGÇ¥ part and in terms of removing the frustration on the defenders' side. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6924
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 22:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:for a problem to be solved it has to exist to begin with ExactlyGǪ
GǪwhich is why AFK cloaking is so easily proven not to be an actual problem: because those who want to claim it is also don't want to see their problem solved.
That said, the actual problem with local is a separate issue and it's slated to be solvedGǪ somehowGǪ at some point. SoonGäó. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6927
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 07:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution. That's because it's a pretty bad solution. Either it wouldn't restrict cloaking for long enough to appease those who are afraid of local, or it will be so restricting that it breaks cloaking.
The reason local keeps coming up is because that's where the supposed problem of AFK cloaking resides: people are getting their panties in a twist due to having their perfect free intel tool subverted. They want to be able to be able to use local to determine who is a threat and who isn't. The presence of AFK cloaking makes this less reliable.
The core issue is that, at the end of the day, AFK cloakers aren't doing anything. The residents of the system are the ones who choose to be disrupted; who choose not to try to not control their space; who cannot conceive of any way to protect themselves; and generally to stick their heads in the sand and complain about their own choices. It's a psychological warfare tool that subverts intel and provides the single counter to the source of intel that local provides.
The two are inextricably linked. Want to fix one? Then you have to adjust the other. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6928
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space It is the behaviour or everyone who has ever complained about AFK cloakers.
Christa Larne wrote:What is unbalanced is that for the cloaked ship there is very little risk to offset the potential reward of getting kills. You can park at a safespot, aligned to something under cloak, and you know 100% that there is no risk to your ship and character. There is also no reward for doing that, so that's pretty balanced as far as risk-vs-reward is concernedGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6935
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 14:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine. Close, but not quite. If you're an unknown in local, people assume you're a threat, regardless of whether you are one or notGǪ and thus we have the endless AFK cloaking whines. That's kind of my point: people assume a connection between the data and its meaning that isn't really there. Making the mechanics enforce a much sharper disconnect between the two might snap people out of that flawed perception.
Quote:OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local. Nah, it's a more of a double-blind system. The comms system can't pick you up; you can't use the comms system. It comes with both benefits and detriments. I think the original suggestion (now lost in the depth of the forum archives) also suggested a spool-up time on cynos to make them mutually detrimental as well, since that's the thing people are really worried about.
Quote:Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you. The importance really lies in hose five words: GÇ£if they're paying attentionGÇ¥. I have no problems with intel being used in various ways (and it being subverted) GÇö I have a problem with it being done automatically for you. At that point, it's no longer intel GÇö it's an automated alarm system. If that attacking cloaker fleet leaves a trail of bread-crumbs behind for the eagle-eyed to spot, then that's excellent! That means you both sides have to exercise some situational awareness and stealth to gain an advantage over the other side. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
|
|
|