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TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
25
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Posted - 2012.05.21 10:00:00 -
[151] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:"didn't cut it in nullsec"
Sorry but wormhole alliances aren't the ones who run screaming and crying back to their pos because an AFK player is in the same system, then spread their tears all over the forums begging CCP to protect them from players who aren't even there and can't do a damned thing. yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space
Exhale have succeeded in the eve-online endgame that is not being a bunch of pussies who run to their pos and sob when a single unknown jumps into one of their systems. I am truly astonished at the amount of players who live in nullsec who can't handle a single player loitering around in their little system. The fact you even know they're there at all is a massive help, yet thats not good enough for you and you still cry for more security (via decloaking timers, ability to probe out cloaked ships, or whatever other stupid, stupid ideas you whiners come up with) |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2012.05.21 10:30:00 -
[152] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution. That's because it's a pretty bad solution. Either it wouldn't restrict cloaking for long enough to appease those who are afraid of local, or it will be so restricting that it breaks cloaking. The reason local keeps coming up is because that's where the supposed problem of AFK cloaking resides: people are getting their panties in a twist due to having their perfect free intel tool subverted. They want to be able to be able to use local to determine who is a threat and who isn't. The presence of AFK cloaking makes this less reliable. The core issue is that, at the end of the day, AFK cloakers aren't doing anything. The residents of the system are the ones who choose to be disrupted; who choose not to try to not control their space; who cannot conceive of any way to protect themselves; and generally to stick their heads in the sand and complain about their own choices. It's a psychological warfare tool that subverts intel and provides the single counter to the source of intel that local provides. The two are inextricably linked. Want to fix one? Then you have to adjust the other.
Afk cloaking indeed isn't a problem. But I can see people being somewhat rightly frustrated by dedicated semi-afk cloaking. Have you ever been on a receiving end of such a thing? Guy sits in system 23.5/7, once every few hours checks scan and if the stars are right, drops ten stealth bombers on you. He can asses the situation pretty well and hence he is not risking much by hotdropping. But it can get really frustrating if you try defending against that, you basically have to have a fleet formed during enemy peak hours doing nothing but sitting on a pos/station/next system gate being alert all the time, doing nothing but waiting for the distress call of the bait ship. Not fun. In the end, the most efficient way is just to relocate to a different system, and let all the hard work you did on getting military/mining indexes up go void.
That isn't much of problem in current political situation in null, where alliancies typically control an entire region and are allowed to rat everywhere. But if CCP actually introduced treties, build-in renter options or some such, and start-up alliances would only have a handful of systems to their disposal, a small dedicated group could shut up fleding null enterprises with minimal effort.
Not saying it is good or bad (HTFU still applies), it is just how it is right now. It is also why some people are calling for some active means to combat cloaky cyno ships, however difficult/time consuming those means may be. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
68
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Posted - 2012.05.21 11:41:00 -
[153] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
the answer is simple,,, remove local see this post >>>CLICK ME<<<
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Degren
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
333
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Posted - 2012.05.21 11:47:00 -
[154] - Quote
Well I'm off to work.
My six cloaky alts all have cynos/fuel equipped in enemy space.
Occasionally I'll use a remote access android app to dscan, send up an alert and then pop said cyno.
I'm just super satisfied everytime a ratting nightmare or tengu dies to a swarm. They should have stayed aligned.
Cloak tank best tank.
Cyno dps best dps. :) |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
68
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Posted - 2012.05.21 11:49:00 -
[155] - Quote
Degren wrote:Well I'm off to work.
My six cloaky alts all have cynos/fuel equipped in enemy space.
Occasionally I'll use a remote access android app to dscan, send up an alert and then pop said cyno.
I'm just super satisfied everytime a ratting nightmare or tengu dies to a swarm. They should have stayed aligned.
don't you mean,, well i'm clocking off work, i might remote in later to check on things. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
598
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Posted - 2012.05.21 12:09:00 -
[156] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. You can be present in local and not be a threat, and you can be absent from local and still be a threat.
If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine. The point is, if you're not blue you're immediately perceived as a threat. If you're absent from local then there is no afk cloaking whine because you are not in the system and cannot be a threat to anyone there perceived or not. If you're not there, you can't do anything to anyone in that system.
Quote: It means cloaking your ship actually cloaks your ship, and that this is a double-blind (or, not entirelyGǪ one-and-three-quarters-blind maybe) state. If you want to find a target for your bombing run, you have to manually warp around (and risk being uncloaked) or use probes (and be spotted on dscan). Yes, you can still use dscan to look for people, but there's a limit to what you can do with that information and what it actually includes.
OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local.
Quote: It increases the stakes on both sides of the fence: people can no longer tell whether a cloaker is in the system (AFK or not GÇö it doesn't matter), but a cloaker can also no longer tell that there are any targets in the systemGǪ or whether they have backup. It provides buffs and nerfs to both sides: the psychological warfare of just being there is gone GÇö you have to actually prove that you're active for it to work, but baiting any such potential attackers is also much easier.
The psychological factor having an unknown neut/red in local is replaced (on both sides) by the psychological factor of inherently being unable to determine whether anyone is watching or notGǪ
Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
doombreed52
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
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Posted - 2012.05.21 14:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
Can we reset SMA now and take thier tech moons? |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.05.21 14:15:00 -
[158] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:I love AFK Cloaking tear threads. Nullbears are as terrible as hisec bears.
I love how the second I even think about shooting a rat Im deamed "a carebear". I'd like to PvP, PvP costs money, Im skilled in such a way that lets me shoot stuff....there must be something I can do to make the ISK I need to get blown up in glorious PvP fire...
Also Im not raging cuz I lost my ship to a hotdrop, Im angry because my ISK making ability was shut down for 3 days by a single guy that was (maybe?) not at his computer for more than a few hours a day. For all of you crying "Set up a defense, problem solved" let me direct you to this excellent post:
Wild Rho wrote:Zoe Athame wrote:Obligatory "Zero people have ever died to an AFK player." That''s either missing the point or ignoring the actual problem. The AFK cloaker can sit in a system all day but only needs to be actively used by the player when they (and possibly their friends) are ready to take action. If they're bored or there are no targets they can leave the character sitting there and go do something more interesting until an opportunity presents itself. On the other hand the defenders have no idea when the cloaker is active or genuinely afk. Their only response is to remain docked and do nothing or to actively form a gang to protect whatever activity is going on. This sounds reasonable at first but what this means is several things are stacked against the defenders: - Several defenders are forced to stop what they are doing to baby sit others and (if they have an organised defence) there is then a realistic chance that nothing will happen. The attacker only requires a single character and can be active when they feel like it. Also maintaining this type of defence constantly is neither engaging or fun. - An attack is only likely to occur if the attackers know they have enough of an advantage to win, the defenders can never preempt this or counter attack. - The attackers will always have the advantage of knowing what they are engaging in advance, the defenders have no information at all until the attack is launched. - The attackers have the advantage of mobility since their goal is typically combat orientated and they can move elsewhere. Defender goals are usually around resource collection of some form which is mostly static, so the option to move around is limited. None of this is really the fault of either side, it's just the inevitable outcome of Eves mechanics that hand out information to the players at no cost or effort.
So the defender cannot even make an educated as to enemy strength, if the enemy is stronger they attack, if they are weaker the waste hours of others people's time and never attack at all. Let me iterate my point, cloaking a ship effectively removes a player from interacting with other players Sure, sitting in a station does the same thing, but the station is meant to be a point of safety and rest, and a player can always dock in said station and see whether or not the player is there. Its a small interaction, but one nonetheless that exists. Why are so many so opposed to having more interaction. Remove local or don't remove local, I dont really care, Ive lived in WHs and I enjoyed not using local. Make cloakers not show up in local, fine. But give us a way to interact with said cloaker, whether it be an anti-cloak ewar ship, or specialized probes, ANYTHING, but IMO more player interaction=more fun. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6935
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Posted - 2012.05.21 14:18:00 -
[159] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine. Close, but not quite. If you're an unknown in local, people assume you're a threat, regardless of whether you are one or notGǪ and thus we have the endless AFK cloaking whines. That's kind of my point: people assume a connection between the data and its meaning that isn't really there. Making the mechanics enforce a much sharper disconnect between the two might snap people out of that flawed perception.
Quote:OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local. Nah, it's a more of a double-blind system. The comms system can't pick you up; you can't use the comms system. It comes with both benefits and detriments. I think the original suggestion (now lost in the depth of the forum archives) also suggested a spool-up time on cynos to make them mutually detrimental as well, since that's the thing people are really worried about.
Quote:Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you. The importance really lies in hose five words: GÇ£if they're paying attentionGÇ¥. I have no problems with intel being used in various ways (and it being subverted) GÇö I have a problem with it being done automatically for you. At that point, it's no longer intel GÇö it's an automated alarm system. If that attacking cloaker fleet leaves a trail of bread-crumbs behind for the eagle-eyed to spot, then that's excellent! That means you both sides have to exercise some situational awareness and stealth to gain an advantage over the other side. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
knulla
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2012.05.21 14:21:00 -
[160] - Quote
Make all local in eve like WH local. |
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Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.05.21 18:28:00 -
[161] - Quote
Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic
Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away.
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baltec1
1182
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Posted - 2012.05.21 18:31:00 -
[162] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away.
Or have ships on standby for such an event. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
822
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Posted - 2012.05.21 18:33:00 -
[163] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Eso Es wrote:Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away. Or have ships on standby for such an event. So, it's about a blob of covert ships jumping through a covops BS bridge? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.05.21 20:52:00 -
[164] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:baltec1 wrote:Eso Es wrote:Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away. Or have ships on standby for such an event. So, it's about a blob of covert ships jumping through a covops BS bridge?
Its about the 1 guy that has the ability to project this threat and the defenders have no course of action other than to camp the entries to their system 24/7 with insta locking ships to prevent entry of said cloaker. Make cloaking more interactive (specialized probes and/or detection ships), as a compensation to the ganker, remove cloaked pilots from local. I'd be 100% satisfied with this as both the defenders and the attackers have the means and opportunity to achieve their goals. |
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
39
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Posted - 2012.05.22 10:50:00 -
[165] - Quote
As I have already mentioned about hiding cloakers from local... That turns cloaks into EZ-mode logoff traps. Logoff traps that still let you see whats on grid to boot, so you know when your prey is in range to strike. |
Plentath
Sudden Buggery
36
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Posted - 2012.05.22 11:55:00 -
[166] - Quote
I live in a WH.
When I get the idea there is an AFK cloaker in system I take precautions. You can never be sure one way or the other whether you're going to get jumped or not.
I am yet to die to one.
Yet apparently, a guy AFK cloaking in nullsec is a cause for OMG LOCKDOWN ALL THE THINGS!! ZOMG!! OH NO!!
Pathetic.
If a guy's name in a list terrifies you then you should really consider going back to highsec, minimising the window, and carrying on with your thing.
I support cloaking devices removing you from local. That way, when you see the name popup in local, you can take all the same precautions that you would otherwise and you know he's at the keys / kill-able. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
424
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:03:00 -
[167] - Quote
Plentath wrote:I live in a WH.
When I get the idea there is an AFK cloaker in system I take precautions. You can never be sure one way or the other whether you're going to get jumped or not.
I am yet to die to one.
Yet apparently, a guy AFK cloaking in nullsec is a cause for OMG LOCKDOWN ALL THE THINGS!! ZOMG!! OH NO!!
Pathetic.
there's these things called "cynos," maybe you've heard of them?
Plentath wrote:I support cloaking devices removing you from local. That way, when you see the name popup in local, you can take all the same precautions that you would otherwise and you know he's at the keys / kill-able.
that's a bad idea and you should feel bad eh |
Kalpel
KBM
14
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:12:00 -
[168] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
I know how you feel and I agree with you, but It is what it is for a reason and that reason is hot drops. Now if people would not rat in systems with a cloaker than most of if not all cloakers wouldn't cloak, but they get easy kills and stop you from ratting and this is why they do what they do.......
Best thing to do is set them up like we use to do with haulers that look like a nice juicy kill, but the hauler was rigged with point, web and a battleship like tank LOL! ahhh the good ol days hehehe You failed to target nothing!-áGëívGëí online |
Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M Persona Non Gratis
64
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:23:00 -
[169] - Quote
so while afk cloakers are mostly boring and sometimes a mild annoyance to live with it would be nice if there was something you could do to hunt them.
Perhaps something like an EMP pulse module you could discharge for a period in a system that would give them a chance of showing up when you are probing or something?
It shouldn't be over powered: It should show up on d-scan or even the overview so that the cloaky would still know that they were being searched for and have chance to take evasive action - just like if you are safed up you can see probes on the d-scan and know that you need to change your strategy.
It also wouldn't preclude most cloaky activity either - the use of a special module (and you could even have it so the EMP (or whatever) module and the probes have to be on separate ships) would mean that it would only be used specifically when cloaked ships were a threat |
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
1
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:28:00 -
[170] - Quote
Remove local from null sec. That way u're not gonna worry anymore about afk cloaked pilots |
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Rocinantae
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
8
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:28:00 -
[171] - Quote
How about having the ability to detect cloaked ships based on sig radius of the cloaked ship. Having cloaking enlarge that sig radius like with micro-warp drives. Then give the ships that are supposed to fit cloaks a bonus to sig radius. They would still have to move around but would be harder to get a drop on using probes. You could also have sig radius grow steadily as a ship is in system unless it warps which would take the ships sig back to its base +/- bonuses. Then if someone afks they're easy picking for a dedicated covops. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace n Quiet
133
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:32:00 -
[172] - Quote
AFK Cloaker = Someone who is AWAY FROM KEYBOARD. Hardly a threat if they aren't even at their computer are they? Please can people stop using this term now? |
Hicksimus
Slaxtopia Reverberation Project
103
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:33:00 -
[173] - Quote
Plentath wrote:I live in a WH.
So have I and there are some things I'd like to remind you of. You don't have to deal with the griefing done by bored players because those bored players are much too lazy to scan most of the time. All of your sites are scanned down, I scan mine down and use my cov ops to make long bookmarks making me even safer(sometimes I even bubble the warp in). AFK cloakers in W-space are not scary because 1)there aren't many and 2)they aren't going to light a cyno for their main and all of his capital/blops buddies who are also bored.
Sure, there are a couple of wormhole griefers, but w-space and deep null are the safest places in EvE.
Between the relatively low price of PLEX and the wormhole/nullsec PvE isk opportunities many players can lock down 5 or 6 systems with these alts all month without their wallets being bothered. Thankfully many of them choose not to or much of nullsec and lowsec would be empty.
Edit: Also, it's a completely risk free on/off switch for pvp since they don't have to be in the corp they light the cyno for you have no idea who's doing it. Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money |
Republic Citizen
5
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:48:00 -
[174] - Quote
2 topicstarter: Adapt or die. Never publish your kills/losses, it's nothing more than a useful information for your enemies.
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
752
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:49:00 -
[175] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote: Sure, there are a couple of wormhole griefers, but w-space and deep null are the safest places in EvE.
Suddenly, a wild K162 appears! Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
FluffyDice
StarFckers Inc.
194
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:49:00 -
[176] - Quote
I wouldn't have a problem with AFK cloaking if titan bridging wasn't a thing. Personally I just move to another system where the cloaker is not though if I want to do anything. |
Kast Agnet
The Nexus 7's ORPHANS OF EVE
9
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Posted - 2012.05.22 13:09:00 -
[177] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
If they nerf afk pos sitting then you can take my afk cloaking. Until then keep an eye out
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Elaine Threepwood
D00M. Northern Coalition.
6
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Posted - 2012.05.22 13:11:00 -
[178] - Quote
Oh look its this thread again. |
Marcus Caspius
Vitriol Ventures Tribal Dragons
18
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Posted - 2012.05.22 13:16:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ituhata Saken wrote:There are only 3 things that worry me about a cloaked ship in system. One is the possibility that this person may not always be afk. Two is that this person may have a point fitted. But third, and most importantly, is the fact this person may have a cyno fitted. Although it is very rare I have had the unfortunate circumstance of observing all 3 probabilities to be true.
Edit: Insert obligatory Schrodinger's Cat joke here.
That is the crux of the matter. I've tanked Stealth Bombers galore - not a problem... in fact if he's a douche you could even kill him, but there is no defence against Superior Hot Drops!
They have initiative, they have numbers, they have all the Intel.
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Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
97
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Posted - 2012.05.22 14:21:00 -
[180] - Quote
Every time i see "Remove afk cloaking" thread i laugh. Another pledge for nerf. How many times in gaming history and in CCP history nerfing resulted in lost subscriptions. Nerfing something like cloaking even touching it will result in massive outrage.
You whine about afk cloakers then you whine about afk Titans and then you will whine about pvp. Stop being a loser and start learning how to counter it using in game tools instead of pledging to nerf something that you impotent to counter. There is already placed in game perfect tools for countering afk cloaking. If you cant do that may be High sec is your place or perhaps you fail as commander if you cant organize simple op to squeeze out afk cloakers.
Stop whining and start thinking. |
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