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Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
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Posted - 2012.05.20 06:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^ |
Zoe Athame
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.05.20 06:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Obligatory "Zero people have ever died to an AFK player." |
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 06:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
For all the complaints about Highsec and people can't deal with anything.. the amount of tears over having a single Red on local that you can't find makes me lol.
If you and your corp/alliance can't respond to a single ship when it decloaks, or protect you from a single cloaked ship, then you are doing it wrong, and should head back to highsec.
That or as was said on the CSM Townhall, remove local from Null, or make it work different.. aka now you won't even know if someone is cloaked and waiting for you.. that'll make everyone in Null happy right :)
Oh and I've yet to find a single confirmed kill by a ship that was claoked at the time.. |
Alara IonStorm
2204
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 06:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Say what you will about AFK Cloaking but being 100% Safe in a cloaked ship is a boring mechanic.
Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
|
Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
13
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Posted - 2012.05.20 06:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved. |
Alara IonStorm
2204
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Posted - 2012.05.20 06:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved. Bombing runs make this impractical. You can camp a system with a fleet and no one knows you are there.
Then make a per-aligned bombing run that takes 3 seconds to execute and warp off to freedom with a completely accurate assessment of the enemy force.
Makes Stealth Bomber Ganking 99% Risk Free.
|
Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 06:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved. Bombing runs make this impractical. You can camp a system with a fleet and no one knows you are there. Then make a per-aligned bombing run that takes 3 seconds to execute and warp off to freedom with a completely accurate assessment of the enemy force. Makes Stealth Bomber Ganking 99% Risk Free.
I'm cool with that, since there is nothing AFK about it. |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 06:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
AFK cloakers schould only be a problem to groups who cannot organize a defensive patrol.
Combat ships shouldn't worry, non combat ships can be escorted or watched over.
Instead of freezing, implement some rules on how to do anything you normally do under stealth contact. |
Ituhata Saken
Crimson Cross Destroyers
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
There are only 3 things that worry me about a cloaked ship in system. One is the possibility that this person may not always be afk. Two is that this person may have a point fitted. But third, and most importantly, is the fact this person may have a cyno fitted. Although it is very rare I have had the unfortunate circumstance of observing all 3 probabilities to be true.
Edit: Insert obligatory Schrodinger's Cat joke here. |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
869
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
What about AFK mining? Or AFK station trading? The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
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Alara IonStorm
2205
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:What about AFK mining? Or AFK station trading? You can Gank Miners and undercut traders.
|
Nebula Terron
Wolf's in Sheep's Clothing
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Say what you will about AFK Cloaking but being 100% Safe in a cloaked ship is a boring mechanic.
Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
You talking about mining ?
Eve Online Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. |
Alara IonStorm
2205
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nebula Terron wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Say what you will about AFK Cloaking but being 100% Safe in a cloaked ship is a boring mechanic.
Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
You talking about mining ? No AFK Cloaking... I said so in the post and the thread title is also a helpful hint.
Their are however lots of other threads about how boring Mining is. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6916
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
AFK Cloaking isn't a mechanic.
The mechanic that is causing your problems is local. That's what needs to be fixed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Sekket
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved.
Oh you! - CQ isn't a refuge, it's a cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
afk cloaking is not a problem, deal with it eh |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
702
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
AFK-Cloaking is done because when you enter a a system, you instantly show up on local... which causes everyone in system to dock/POS up because you are a non-blue... and they will continue to stay docked/POSed up until you leave and/or are destroyed. The only way around this is to "devalue" local as an intel tool by sitting around in a system... often for days.
Now... if you give me a way to get some kills while casually roaming around 0.0 I will agree that AFK-cloaking should be done away with. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The mechanic that is causing your problems is local. That's what needs to be fixed.
ahahahahahahaha
no eh |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
208
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Reset SpaceMonkey's Alliance. I need to go AFK cloak in this guys system. Heh. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Vengance Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
0/10
No.
Also...no.
But getting rid of local can be nice too. |
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Wild Rho
Silent Core
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zoe Athame wrote:Obligatory "Zero people have ever died to an AFK player."
That''s either missing the point or ignoring the actual problem.
The AFK cloaker can sit in a system all day but only needs to be actively used by the player when they (and possibly their friends) are ready to take action. If they're bored or there are no targets they can leave the character sitting there and go do something more interesting until an opportunity presents itself.
On the other hand the defenders have no idea when the cloaker is active or genuinely afk. Their only response is to remain docked and do nothing or to actively form a gang to protect whatever activity is going on.
This sounds reasonable at first but what this means is several things are stacked against the defenders: - Several defenders are forced to stop what they are doing to baby sit others and (if they have an organised defence) there is then a realistic chance that nothing will happen. The attacker only requires a single character and can be active when they feel like it. Also maintaining this type of defence constantly is neither engaging or fun.
- An attack is only likely to occur if the attackers know they have enough of an advantage to win, the defenders can never preempt this or counter attack.
- The attackers will always have the advantage of knowing what they are engaging in advance, the defenders have no information at all until the attack is launched.
- The attackers have the advantage of mobility since their goal is typically combat orientated and they can move elsewhere. Defender goals are usually around resource collection of some form which is mostly static, so the option to move around is limited.
None of this is really the fault of either side, it's just the inevitable outcome of Eves mechanics that hand out information to the players at no cost or effort. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6918
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:ahahahahahahaha
no AFK cloaking couldn't exist without local. The reason people get aggravated is because local shows them that someone is there and they overreact to this information. Local is providing too much intel for too little (i.e. no) work.
The entire GÇ£problemGÇ¥ of AFK cloaking resides in the existence of local and is an artefact of this defect. To GÇ£fixGÇ¥ AFK cloaking, the defect in local has to be removed (alternatively, you can just stop thinking of it as a problem).
By the way, removing local as an intel tool is part of the CCP 5-year-planGäóGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Hroya
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 09:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Make cloakingdevices only fit on barges and exhumers, no other ships. That would stir up the pot for sure.
My bet is that local and the inabillity to find cloacked ships will be fixed within 2 months tops after such a change
You go your corridor but. |
Josef Djugashvilis
188
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 09:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
Sounds suspiciously like carebear whinging to me.
Miners have to deal with ganking, 'tough guys' have to deal with cloaking in their space. You want fries with that? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 10:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tippia wrote:AFK cloaking couldn't exist without local. The reason people get aggravated is because local shows them that someone is there and they overreact to this information. Local is providing too much intel for too little (i.e. no) work.
The entire GÇ£problemGÇ¥ of AFK cloaking resides in the existence of local and is an artefact of this defect. To GÇ£fixGÇ¥ AFK cloaking, the defect in local has to be removed (alternatively, you can just stop thinking of it as a problem).
By the way, removing local as an intel tool is part of the CCP 5-year-planGäóGǪ yes, screwing with somebody with your mere presence is considered psychological warfare
however, AFK cloaking doesn't quite work if you never engage anybody - after a while, they'll just continue on ratting, even with you in local, and if you wait long enough, you'll be considered benign, not willing to attempt a kill. simply cloaking up in a safe somewhere is no guarantee that you'll have any effect on the residents.
simply removing local would have far-reaching effects, one being that it completely skews the balance against the residents of any given system and towards cloaky gangs - bombers are nearly impossible to intercept if they're flown by somebody competent, and they have no targeting delay - the lack of local would break them beyond belief.
local makes sense in nullsec where travel occurs through static routes and most of the activity is done in areas that do not require probing, unlike wormholes. eh |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
594
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
You know, with all the crying about hisec'ers not pvping and how they should HTFU, you want to come in here and start complaining about AFK cloakies?
Um....HTFU! We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Myz Toyou
Bite Me inc Exhale.
94
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Tippia wrote:The mechanic that is causing your problems is local. That's what needs to be fixed. ahahahahahahaha no
Would the removal of local affect your botting or why are you so against it ? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Myz Toyou wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Tippia wrote:The mechanic that is causing your problems is local. That's what needs to be fixed. ahahahahahahaha no Would the removal of local affect your botting or why are you so against it ?
oh man I love it when people bring the botting argument in favor of removing local
attempting to curb botting with changes to game mechanics is stupid because bots can dscan better than a human player, they can inject code to get the local list anyway, and they can respond to threats faster
try harder~ eh |
Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
759
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
If people want to find you then they can tell when you are online
they can locate which system you are in
They can tell how active you have been in a system
Unless you get rid of the above avenues then cloaking is truly the only defence you have. I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Zoe Athame
Aliastra Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Wild Rho wrote:Zoe Athame wrote:Obligatory "Zero people have ever died to an AFK player." That''s either missing the point or ignoring the actual problem. The AFK cloaker can sit in a system all day but only needs to be actively used by the player when they (and possibly their friends) are ready to take action. If they're bored or there are no targets they can leave the character sitting there and go do something more interesting until an opportunity presents itself. On the other hand the defenders have no idea when the cloaker is active or genuinely afk. Their only response is to remain docked and do nothing or to actively form a gang to protect whatever activity is going on. This sounds reasonable at first but what this means is several things are stacked against the defenders: - Several defenders are forced to stop what they are doing to baby sit others and (if they have an organised defence) there is then a realistic chance that nothing will happen. The attacker only requires a single character and can be active when they feel like it. Also maintaining this type of defence constantly is neither engaging or fun. - An attack is only likely to occur if the attackers know they have enough of an advantage to win, the defenders can never preempt this or counter attack. - The attackers will always have the advantage of knowing what they are engaging in advance, the defenders have no information at all until the attack is launched. - The attackers have the advantage of mobility since their goal is typically combat orientated and they can move elsewhere. Defender goals are usually around resource collection of some form which is mostly static, so the option to move around is limited. None of this is really the fault of either side, it's just the inevitable outcome of Eves mechanics that hand out information to the players at no cost or effort.
The cloaker is dedicating an entire account to this but you arent willing to dedicate an account to defend from it?
Put your own AFK cloaked ship in the same system and then by your logic both will be too scared to ever do anything.
|
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6918
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:20:00 -
[31] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:oh man I love it when people bring the botting argument in favor of removing local Personally, I love it when people cannot formulate a good argument and just barf out a pointless GǣnoGǥ for no good reasonGǪ
And anyway, local is what's causing AFK cloaking, so that's where the GÇ£fixGÇ¥ needs to happen. It doesn't have to be removed, as such GÇö it just have to stop providing instant and infallible intel to all and sundry. The best solution so far remains the idea that cloaking removes you from local, in both senses: you cannot be seen in the local user list, and you cannot see the local user list. If you want to do something non-AFK, you will have to expose yourself and/or spend a lot of time finding absolutely nothing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Kale Kold
the united Negative Ten.
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
AFK Cloakers
- Can't move
- Can't lock
- Can't shoot
- and nobody is at the controls
...but apparently it can lock down a system for hours on end!
grow a pair! GÇ£Some people call me insane for the destruction-áIGÇÖve caused, ...I believe I was just doing my duty!GÇ¥ -- Testimony submitted to Caldari Navy war crimes tribunal. |
Elena Melkan
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:44:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:And anyway, local is what's causing AFK cloaking, so that's where the GÇ£fixGÇ¥ needs to happen. It doesn't have to be removed, as such GÇö it just have to stop providing instant and infallible intel to all and sundry. The best solution so far remains the idea that cloaking removes you from local, in both senses: you cannot be seen in the local user list, and you cannot see the local user list. If you want to do something non-AFK, you will have to expose yourself and/or spend a lot of time finding absolutely nothing. I don't honestly think there's a problem with AFK cloaking as it is now. As Richard Desturned stated in his post, it is an excellent psychological warfare engine. You can simply get a person to cloak up in your enemy's carebearing system and interrupt the ISK flow in that system pretty nicely. Removing cloakers from local would make this much less effective.
|
trevormax
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Not a problem in WH space.
Removal of local in null (or removal of cloaked ships from local) would make hunter packs of cloaked ships fun to use in null (not just bombers but cloaked recon ships and the like). They would show up in local for a couple seconds as they change from gate cloak to their own cloak.
As a counter, maybe CCP could introduce some kind of anchorable item which has a chance (20%, 50% per 30 second cycle etc) to de-cloak a ship within a certain range. Anchor it near to a belt and it has a max range of say 50km. Can not have one anchored closer than 100km from another one. Cloaked ships would have a chance to gank but also could be de-cloaked prematurely by this device giving the target a chance to leg it. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
444
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
CSM chairman and former CCP-dev Seleene explained on the CSM Townhall Meeting the reason why CCP isn't touching the cloaking mechanics.
Basically when somebody cloaks it makes him literally 'not be there' in the game. While that was an easy way back then to implement invisibility, it's now biting CCP in the arse, because it also makes it impossible to change things.
Many of the ideas to balance AFK-cloaking or even normal cloaking, would involving modules cycling, which would require completely rebuilding the cloaking mechanics. Something CCP currently doesn't have the resources for.
If CCP revamps cloaking, personally I think the best and easiest way to balance it by the consumption of cap charges by the cloaking module. The module should only contain a fixed m3 and the size of the ship's signature will determine which charge size is necessary, so cloaking larger ships not only is more expensive, they also need to reload more often, leaving them vulnerable. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
killorbekilled TBE
Dare Bears
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 11:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Say what you will about AFK Cloaking but being 100% Safe in a cloaked ship is a boring mechanic.
Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
sometimes i need to go afk suddenly for real life stuff and if i cant do this then i dont play eve at all huh? |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off Imperial Ascension
377
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
I think a guy earlier hit the nail on the head; cloaky campers mean that you either have to safe up, and stay safe, or you have to drag a support fleet with you to do so much as run an anomaly.
At which point the ISK per person might as well drop to nothing, not to mention a lot of boredom being injected into the game, at no cost at all to the "aggressor", whom may very well be completely AFK.
You have to act as though he or she isn't, though, and THAT is the problem... it's a broken mechanic in risk / reward for the attacker. They have absolutely no risk, and for 23.5 hours per day they get rewarded by harming their opponents economy.
Edit: To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with stealthy-on-stealthy warfare. I had some awesome times in Geminate with 2 enemy bomber / recon wings going at each other. |
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
get rid of local so u dont have to see all these afk cloaking terrors |
Francisco Bizzaro
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:CSM chairman and former CCP-dev Seleene explained on the CSM Townhall Meeting the reason why CCP isn't touching the cloaking mechanics.
Basically when somebody cloaks it makes him literally 'not be there' in the game. While that was an easy way back then to implement invisibility, it's now biting CCP in the arse, because it also makes it impossible to change things.
Many of the ideas to balance AFK-cloaking or even normal cloaking, would involving modules cycling, which would require completely rebuilding the cloaking mechanics. Something CCP currently doesn't have the resources for. Did they mention any technical difficulties with modifying local chat? I'm also of the opinion that cloaking is okay as-is, and local is what really needs to be fixed (for this and other reasons - in particular it's just bad form to have a key intel source be a side-effect of the chat implementation).
But there has been talking about modifying local for so long without anything happening, I wonder if they've painted themselves into a coding corner there as well. |
Alara IonStorm
2207
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:36:00 -
[40] - Quote
killorbekilled TBE wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Say what you will about AFK Cloaking but being 100% Safe in a cloaked ship is a boring mechanic.
Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
sometimes i need to go afk suddenly for real life stuff and if i cant do this then i dont play eve at all and how long i go afk for is up to me Good for you but you really shouldn't do that in space, especially PvP Space.
With the Cloak Hunter Module CCP is thinking of introducing you really won't want to do that.
|
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Hauling Hal
The Black Ops
61
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:get rid of local so u dont have to see all these afk cloaking terrors
Generally, WHers act as if there is someone AFK cloaked in their system all the time, hence the fear of AFK cloakers is a psychological side-effect of local, not a mechanic to be changed. |
Alara IonStorm
2207
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Hauling Hal wrote:Aemonchichi wrote:get rid of local so u dont have to see all these afk cloaking terrors Generally, WHers act as if there is someone AFK cloaked in their system all the time, hence the fear of AFK cloakers is a psychological side-effect of local, not a mechanic to be changed. Wormholes have extremely low population compared t the rest of the game and who your neighbors are changes constantly.
Their is no real comparison to be made to Null Sec. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
597
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The best solution so far remains the idea that cloaking removes you from local, in both senses: you cannot be seen in the local user list, and you cannot see the local user list. If you want to do something non-AFK, you will have to expose yourself and/or spend a lot of time finding absolutely nothing.
I'll disagree with you on this.
What you're suggesting here only serves to indicate whether a person is a threat, by their presence on local or not a threat, by their lack of presence on local. The only function of such a mechanic is to remove the terror that AFK cloaking is presently without adding any risk or perceived threat to the environment. Effectively, it's a buff to the locals and a nerf for everyone else.
With what HS is going through right now while CCP sits on the sidelines laughing at everyone involved, I'd be highly disappointed if they did as you suggested, effectively reducing risk in the environment from which so many HTFU's are coming. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
I like to cloak in systems where I can't dock to take a crap sometimes. Please don't prevent me from taking craps. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6918
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:What you're suggesting here only serves to indicate whether a person is a threat, by their presence on local or not a threat, by their lack of presence on local. No. You can be present in local and not be a threat, and you can be absent from local and still be a threat. It means cloaking your ship actually cloaks your ship, and that this is a double-blind (or, not entirelyGǪ one-and-three-quarters-blind maybe) state. If you want to find a target for your bombing run, you have to manually warp around (and risk being uncloaked) or use probes (and be spotted on dscan). Yes, you can still use dscan to look for people, but there's a limit to what you can do with that information and what it actually includes.
It increases the stakes on both sides of the fence: people can no longer tell whether a cloaker is in the system (AFK or not GÇö it doesn't matter), but a cloaker can also no longer tell that there are any targets in the systemGǪ or whether they have backup. It provides buffs and nerfs to both sides: the psychological warfare of just being there is gone GÇö you have to actually prove that you're active for it to work, but baiting any such potential attackers is also much easier.
The psychological factor having an unknown neut/red in local is replaced (on both sides) by the psychological factor of inherently being unable to determine whether anyone is watching or notGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Hiding cloakers from local just turns cloaks into EZ-mode logon traps.
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greeny knight
Solar Storm Intrepid Crossing
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
wel the discution is years old and i'm 8 years old most in nullsec and i'm a damn good cov op pilot and they need to fix this afk cloacking s******.
if you are a miner and you have a nice system you always mine 1 afk cloacker can ruing your game , in inferno ccp claims to have a counterfit to every fit in game , wel here is some news they don't that afk cloacking is broken and gives alot of people alot of greef , here are some viable selutions that can solve this problem in the gamespirrit of eve .
sugestion 1
as the covop mod is active its a invisable bubble that cant get the gasses out and need to be vented every 10 min so it decloacks for a set timer say 30 sec , if the cloack button is not prest it stays uncloacked
suggestion 2 (my favorite)
create a ghosthunter specialized to hunt cloackies no offencive weapons filled to the eyeballs with electronica to spot them and decloack them prob verry fragile not cloackable basicly a flying coffin when the cloacky is not afk
suggestion 3 (also my fav )
we still have the deep space probes thea are basicly useless now , convert them to ghost hunter probes that can launched from a cov op or a specialized ship to reviel cloackies
|
Medarr
ZeroSec
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
To be honest I like AFK cloaking it allows me to have s3x while still messing with your mind even while I'm not physically present at my computer... Win/Win situation...
Also..
pic of me doing the above... |
Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
272
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Middle ground:
Force "constellation" chat (you can not close it), delete local.
You know there's reds about, but not which system.
Promotes roaming your constellations, scouting and generally undocking eyes. ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
105
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
What??? That doesn't even make sense... Again. |
|
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
greeny knight wrote:wel the discution is years old and i'm 8 years old most in nullsec and i'm a damn good cov op pilot and they need to fix this afk cloacking s******.
if you are a miner and you have a nice system you always mine 1 afk cloacker can ruing your game , in inferno ccp claims to have a counterfit to every fit in game , wel here is some news they don't that afk cloacking is broken and gives alot of people alot of greef , here are some viable selutions that can solve this problem in the gamespirrit of eve .
sugestion 1
as the covop mod is active its a invisable bubble that cant get the gasses out and need to be vented every 10 min so it decloacks for a set timer say 30 sec , if the cloack button is not prest it stays uncloacked
suggestion 2 (my favorite)
create a ghosthunter specialized to hunt cloackies no offencive weapons filled to the eyeballs with electronica to spot them and decloack them prob verry fragile not cloackable basicly a flying coffin when the cloacky is not afk
suggestion 3 (also my fav )
we still have the deep space probes thea are basicly useless now , convert them to ghost hunter probes that can launched from a cov op or a specialized ship to reviel cloackies
Any serious nerf to cloakyfags is a buff to nullsec bots, or, as in the case of removing them from local, turns them into easy login traps.
Fix bots, and after that you can worry about fixing AFK cloaking. |
greeny knight
Solar Storm Intrepid Crossing
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:57:00 -
[52] - Quote
deleting local from null sec is a old non vioble thing because every nullsecminer will com to a system near jita in highsec and only gankers will rule null sec now we have a chanse to escape or kill them |
Alara IonStorm
2208
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 14:11:00 -
[53] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
What??? That doesn't even make sense... Again. Sure it does. Subs being like Cloak Ships evading sub hunting parties like Destroyers Screens in WWII?
Also poeple are going AFK because their is no opposition to hunt them. They would stick around and evade the enemy if their was an enemy that could track them.
What part tripped you up? |
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 14:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Katja Faith wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Sub Warfare is 100 times more fun. ! mean the cloaking mechanic is so boring that people are literally leaving their computer screens rather playing which right their says it all.
What??? That doesn't even make sense... Again. Sure it does. Subs being like Cloak Ships evading sub hunting parties like Destroyers Screens in WWII? Also poeple are going AFK because their is no opposition to hunt them. They would stick around and evade the enemy if their was an enemy that could track them. What part tripped you up? This solution would make cloaks more fun... but still helps bots too much, imo. |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 14:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:AFK cloakers schould only be a problem to groups who cannot organize a defensive patrol.
Combat ships shouldn't worry, non combat ships can be escorted or watched over.
Instead of freezing, implement some rules on how to do anything you normally do under stealth contact.
A lot of people here seem to be missing the point. An "afk" cloaker can at any point, set up a hotdrop on said combat ships. This includes lighting a cynobeacon while still cloaked at which point the "1 puny cloaker" turns into an army of reds and pops all your stuff. The fact that there is NOTHING a player can do to counter this threat, other than just leave system, is really bad. It is non-interactive and unfun. Discuss now that you are all enlightened to the danger this poses. |
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 14:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:This includes lighting a cynobeacon while still cloaked Wrong. |
Alara IonStorm
2209
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 14:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
Dawn Flare wrote: This solution would make cloaks more fun... but still helps bots too much, imo.
My full opinion on the matter is:
- Make Cloaking not effected by D-Scan but not reveal ship type.
- Improve D-Scan Controls / Make it Automated and Information Display and maybe shorten its range.
- Remove Local.
- Add a T2 Destroyer designed to Scan Cloaked Ships 120 seconds after the Gate Cloak wears off.
- Remove speed penalty for Prototype and Improved Cloak and tweak Black Ops bonus to suit.
|
Tobiaz
Spacerats
445
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 14:48:00 -
[58] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Did they mention any technical difficulties with modifying local chat? I'm also of the opinion that cloaking is okay as-is, and local is what really needs to be fixed (for this and other reasons - in particular it's just bad form to have a key intel source be a side-effect of the chat implementation).
But there has been talking about modifying local for so long without anything happening, I wonder if they've painted themselves into a coding corner there as well.
I don't remember exactly anymore, but I thinks the CSM agrees the Local channel provides too much intel and that CCP feels a bit the same way as well. They talked a bit about delayed local while under gatecloak, being able to run a quick scan for potential targets, but nothing about technical difficulties I think.
I think the biggest problem that's holding back CCP's hand in this though, is the fact that messing with local for null can massively disrupt its community. Because while null-PvP pilots may talk big words about removing local for a more target-rich environment, many of them are just big carebears hiding in the mob, pretending to be wolves and conveniently forgetting that this will have consequences for them personally as well.
CCP probably isn't to keen on having a local-nerf following by an public outcry to boost null-income a few months later. Just look at all the whining about afk-cloakers unmasking the hidden carebears that make up a large part of the null community. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 14:59:00 -
[59] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
If he's afk he can't harm you. |
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 15:01:00 -
[60] - Quote
Remove local, afk cloaking problem solved. See how easy that was? |
|
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1198
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 15:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
posting in AFK cloak thread number 6596 The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 15:20:00 -
[62] - Quote
I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks. |
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 15:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
Savage Angel wrote:I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks. Because having to seek refuge is not indicative of risk |
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 15:31:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dawn Flare wrote:Savage Angel wrote:I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks. Because having to seek refuge is not indicative of risk
Guess you only got half the point. If they are so scared of a single ship, their normal time must be essentially risk-free, or they would just handle the risk that it represented. |
Caecilia Arene
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 15:33:00 -
[65] - Quote
Oh look... yet another AFK cloak thread by the 'anti AFK cloak' lobby. Yawn...
It's working as intended. If you think they're AFK but a worried they are not then go to another system. Maybe just the system next door .
|
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 15:38:00 -
[66] - Quote
Savage Angel wrote:Dawn Flare wrote:Savage Angel wrote:I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks. Because having to seek refuge is not indicative of risk Guess you only got half the point. If they are so scared of a single ship, their normal time must be essentially risk-free, or they would just handle the risk that it represented. It is risk free in the short term if you are in a properly run alliance, because we take long term risks, significant investment, and a fairly high degree of teamwork between hundreds, if not thousands of people to make our empires secure.
As a result, our day to day lives are fairly risk free if we pay attention to what we are doing, since NBSI is the rule(other than CVA).
We can also be locked out of everything we own, did you know that? We don't risk 1 ship at a time, we risk EVERYTHING to have what we have taken(and yes, you do have to work to take space, and it takes months of work to secure space properly so you can have some safety in the heart of your empire).
Some people are mad because cloakies can spoil that and there is not a whole lot we can do if they just hide all day.
PS. I personally think that AFK cloaking is a valid tactic, and don't want to see it gone despite the fact that I do alot of mining type activities to support my corp. |
Draydin Warsong
Jetcan Reclaimation Service
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 16:11:00 -
[67] - Quote
I am amazed at the people in this thread that have said cloakers go afk because it so boring. When I go out in my stealth bomber I afk not because I am bored...but because it is the only way to defeat the broken mechanic that is local. I have to wait 3-4 days for someone to get comfortable enough in system to continue mining/ratting etc before I can even get a kill...that is the whole point. That you cower in fear inside your outpost/POS is just a bonus. To nerf cloak mechanics without removing bombers showing up on local would be to make them entirely useless. Bombers are MEANT to be able to sneak into a system to disrupt enemy industry.
If they cant get rid of local than staying the course is the only option here.
Also...I am to lazy to go back and look up who he was earlier in this thread but I do believe I have spotted my first carebear whiner goon. Haha. Sorry I just find that amusing...like finding a four leaf clover or something...proof that they ARE really people behind the keyboards and not future aliens from Venus come back in time to take over our space pixels and troll our forums. |
Lepto
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 16:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
I don't know if this is technically possible, but it seems like a compromise would be this:
Remove an afk cloaker from local after they have been inactive for more than a set amount of time.
When an afk cloaker comes back, put them back in local and have a timer before they can do anything. People who are aware could react, but a skilled cloaker should be able to still be effective if they set up right. |
bongsmoke
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 17:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
I say we just give u an "Iwin" button, but I'm sure you'd still *****. |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 17:37:00 -
[70] - Quote
simple solution, anyone who cloaks gets removed from the local list.... ^_^ |
|
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
354
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 17:45:00 -
[71] - Quote
greeny knight wrote:if you are a miner and you have a nice system you always mine 1 afk cloacker can ruing your game
Oh wait, I thought low and null people hated miners and did all they could to ruin their game (hulkageddon etc etc) ... sounds like double standards to me This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless |
Lady Ghoulia
MALCONTENT5
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 17:47:00 -
[72] - Quote
this is a new and original opinion |
baltec1
1178
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
The AFK cloaker.
Can't move, can't scan, can't tackle and can't shoot anything yet it can keep a system locked down for days. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off Imperial Ascension
377
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:08:00 -
[74] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The AFK cloaker.
Can't move, can't scan, can't tackle and can't shoot anything yet it can keep a system locked down for days.
Well done, you successfully graduated from copying and pasting.
Saying it can't tackle and can't shoot is like saying that an unlaunched nuclear missile doesn't present a threat when it's aimed at your country. |
adam smash
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
So either you died to an afk person (I see it happen, morons who can't take gate guns attack afk on gate chars in lowsec...
Or the person is not afk...
HTFU I've seen 3 ships covering one covetor in lowsec... sounds like renting aint getting you protection. |
baltec1
1178
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:12:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:baltec1 wrote:The AFK cloaker.
Can't move, can't scan, can't tackle and can't shoot anything yet it can keep a system locked down for days. Well done, you successfully graduated from copying and pasting. Saying it can't tackle and can't shoot is like saying that an unlaunched nuclear missile doesn't present a threat when it's aimed at your country.
Well, it doesn't so long as its just sitting there in the silo. |
Enquirer
Shadow Operations Inc. CORE Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:13:00 -
[77] - Quote
Time for a new ship. The Anti cloak ship. It works with scanners but specializes in finding vessels that are cloaked. When a ship cloaks, its cloak builds up excess energy. After awhile (set time limit here) without movement, this excess energey can be scanned. The longer a cloaked vessel is motionless And cloaked, the easier it will be to scan down.
Now what this does and doesnt do is very simply : If an afk cloaker is in system for hrs on end and not at his ship moving it occasionally, it can and will be able to be scanned down located and destroyed. What it doesnt do is make the cloak useless. The cloaker will be easily able to defeat this energy build up by simply moving his vessel now and then.
AFK cloaking is a bad game design that needs to go away. "no ones ever died from an afk cloaker" .... thats just stupid logic. You know damn well the strat behind the afk cloaker so dont play dumb.
NEW SHIP NEW SHIP NEW SHIP!!!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
812
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:13:00 -
[78] - Quote
LOL Afk cloaking. Been meaning to do this myself.
I hear IRC will go and try to camp in people that gank them, it would be a good way to practice PvP "skills". Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
baltec1
1178
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:16:00 -
[79] - Quote
Enquirer wrote:
AFK cloaking is a bad game design that needs to go away. "no ones ever died from an afk cloaker" .... thats just stupid logic. You know damn well the strat behind the afk cloaker so dont play dumb.
But nobody has died to an AFK cloaker. The problem is entirely in peoples minds and it is they who make themselves cower in station. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
812
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
It's not like we have to rat constantly so the corp can make taxes or mine for the next titan to be added to the supercapital fleet anyway... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
|
Enquirer
Shadow Operations Inc. CORE Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:44:00 -
[81] - Quote
AFK cloakers arose to the presence of local. What if local didnt represent only a system but a region instead. This would allow for small groups and solo units some ability to hide. It would force the local people to scan to see if the new comer entered their system... Knowing a neutral is in local but not knowing in which system among say a region would open up some use for cloakers and black ops ships that currently local robs them of.
|
Selinate
874
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:44:00 -
[82] - Quote
The entire point of using a cov ops cloak is defeated simply by having local, which is moving about undetected. Local needs to be fixed. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
812
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:45:00 -
[83] - Quote
Aww, do you not like being able to get in undetected?
I dodn't want that gank anyway, I was just ... afk cloaking ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 18:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:WWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAa!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want risk free PvE in nullsec
UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:02:00 -
[85] - Quote
Draydin Warsong wrote:I am amazed at the people in this thread that have said cloakers go afk because it so boring. When I go out in my stealth bomber I afk not because I am bored...but because it is the only way to defeat the broken mechanic that is local. I have to wait 3-4 days for someone to get comfortable enough in system to continue mining/ratting etc before I can even get a kill...that is the whole point. That you cower in fear inside your outpost/POS is just a bonus . To nerf cloak mechanics without removing bombers showing up on local would be to make them entirely useless. Bombers are MEANT to be able to sneak into a system to disrupt enemy industry. If they cant get rid of local than staying the course is the only option here. Also...I am to lazy to go back and look up who he was earlier in this thread but I do believe I have spotted my first carebear whiner goon. Haha. Sorry I just find that amusing...like finding a four leaf clover or something...proof that they ARE really people behind the keyboards and not future aliens from Venus come back in time to take over our space pixels and troll our forums.
To quote Lord Tyrian, "I like you." UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The best solution so far remains the idea that cloaking removes you from local, in both senses: you cannot be seen in the local user list, and you cannot see the local user list.
Yes let's add risk-free easymode PvP for everyone who bothers to train Electronics V and Cloaking IV eh |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:36:00 -
[87] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Yes let's add risk-free easymode PvP for everyone who bothers to train Electronics V and Cloaking IV Yes, because losing the ability to spot targets easily and having no idea what you might encounter should you choose to attack is both risk-free and easymode.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:38:00 -
[88] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes, because losing the ability to spot targets easily and having no idea what you might encounter should you choose to attack is both risk-free and easymode.
Finding the targets would be no problem when you're in a ship that can scan 100% sites (anoms) while cloaked, scout belts out and maintain itself entirely undetectable while sitting at, say, a cyno beacon or jump bridge.
Everything would be entirely in your favor. eh |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:46:00 -
[89] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Finding the targets would be no problem when you're in a ship that can scan 100% sites (anoms) while cloaked, scout belts out and maintain itself entirely undetectable while sitting at, say, a cyno beacon or jump bridge. Oh, you mean those things you have to warp to and risk being uncloaked, and having to do all of that because there is no longer any way to tell whether there are any targets around or notGǪ?
GǪand even then, not being sure what it is you're going to encounter.
What you're describing can already be done, but local makes it easier and faster since you know whether it's worth doing at all. So yeah, no. Not easymode and not risk-free, since you're only ever losing the ability to predict your encounter.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:58:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪand even then, not being sure what it is you're going to encounter.
That uncertainty is entirely offset by the fact that only you dictate when you engage.
eh |
|
LittleTerror
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:00:00 -
[91] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Myz Toyou wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Tippia wrote:The mechanic that is causing your problems is local. That's what needs to be fixed. ahahahahahahaha no Would the removal of local affect your botting or why are you so against it ? oh man I love it when people bring the botting argument in favor of removing local attempting to curb botting with changes to game mechanics is stupid because bots can dscan better than a human player, they can inject code to get the local list anyway, and they can respond to threats faster try harder~
What's the problem with removing local? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:04:00 -
[92] - Quote
LittleTerror wrote:What's the problem with removing local?
I already pointed them out, now give me a reason for removing it. eh |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:10:00 -
[93] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:That uncertainty is entirely offset by the fact that only you dictate when you engage. GǪwhich you already can, and which doesn't remove that uncertainty since the whole point is that you inherently don't have enough information to make a fully informed decision any more, so it's not actually offset at all. Dictating when you engage helps when you can pick the best opportunity to strike GÇö with the added uncertainty, you no longer can.
You're arguing that having less information at your disposal makes things easier and less risky. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:14:00 -
[94] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:That uncertainty is entirely offset by the fact that only you dictate when you engage. GǪwhich you already can, and which doesn't remove that uncertainty since the whole point is that you inherently don't have enough information to make a fully informed decision any more, so it's not actually offset at all. Dictating when you engage helps when you can pick the best opportunity to strike GÇö with the added uncertainty, you no longer can. You're arguing that having less information at your disposal makes things easier and less risky. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.
okay and how would the target be able to determine whether he's about to get warped onto or not
at least in a wormhole you have to be probed out, showing you probes on dscan eh |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:okay and how would the target be able to determine whether he's about to get warped onto or not The same way as now. In other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:21:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:okay and how would the target be able to determine whether he's about to get warped onto or not The same way as now. In other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode.
oh yeah i forgot that there is no ship in the game with the ability to warp cloaked eh |
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
There's no reason to change anything.
If you're too scared to move because of a red in your system then that's your problem.. Grow a pair and take a chance, be out in something you can defend yourself with, or go with others..
If you don't want to face this fear, then I have news for your, CCP already offers a place Without Local.. It's called WH's. Go there and have fun.
The cloaking mechanic works fine. The Local Channel works fine. And there's a provided alternative called Wormholes for you to go too if you want to be without local.
Don't see why CCP has to nerf Cloaking, or kill Local, just because you don't have a pair, or refuse to go to the areas of space that already have what you are asking for. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:24:00 -
[98] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:oh yeah i forgot that there is no ship in the game with the ability to warp cloaked GǪin other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode. Quite the opposite since you have less information available as far as what it is you're warping to.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Finding the targets would be no problem when you're in a ship that can scan 100% sites (anoms) while cloaked, scout belts out and maintain itself entirely undetectable while sitting at, say, a cyno beacon or jump bridge. Oh, you mean those things you have to warp to and risk being uncloaked, and having to do all of that because there is no longer any way to tell whether there are any targets around or notGǪ? GǪand even then, not being sure what it is you're going to encounter. What you're describing can already be done, but local makes it easier and faster since you know whether it's worth doing at all. So yeah, no. Not easymode and not risk-free, since you're only ever losing the ability to predict your encounter.
What I see here in this thread, is plain and simple nullbears QQ. What you are say does not change this. Infact it would indeed worsen the situation.
Being in a cloaky does not give you all the intel in the system. Guess what. To find that out you have to move. Risk getting de-cloaked, bla bla bla. Infact by not being in the local, will make gathering intel a whole lot easier. They dont see you, they dont dock up. Thus hiding the ships they were using.
Then you would have the next wave crying QQ, We can't tell if theres a cloaky in our system, let us see the AFK cloakies so we know they're there and when they're not. So we can absolutey know, when we are safe to mine / bot
Local is not the broken mechanic here. What is broken is people's perception of a perceived threat.
o7 |
Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:26:00 -
[100] - Quote
It's really a no brainer that appearing in local defeats classic stealth - "Pssst....they don't even know we're here!" Yet, the flipside to that would be employing the worn out phrase, "This is EVE - trust no one." Assume they're there. There's always going to be someone "there." True, appearing in local as this huge neon red thingy sort of blows the surprise. And, just as true, not being able to actually locate a covert, cloaked ship means its cover isn't actually BLOWN blown...if that makes sense.
I'd say if you're truly vigilant, and situationally aware, you'd function like there's a surprise attack brewing all the time (even if there may not be.) It's called OPERATIONAL SECURITY. Even IF there is a surprise attack in the offing, you can absorb it, and turn it. We call the ones who can't do this "losers." We call the ones who CAN do this "winners."
It would also be wise to assume your enemy has as much intel on YOU as YOU have on THEM. They may not. You don't care. You function AS IF they do. Of course, when dealing with an undisciplined, impatient, lazy and easily distracted general population who at the same time like to see themselves as elite in every way, you'll find suggestions to make it EASIER on them. Too many buttons to push (God forbid!) Too many little extra things to do! "Why can't this be EASY??"
You can either rise to the occassion or you're in the wrong field of activity. Instead of ganking miners and pretending it's PvP, you may should be mining. If you want the game to do everything FOR you, so you don't have to KNOW anything, or DO anything...which is what this eventually boils down to, find something not as challenging that requires less of your effort and attention. Seriously. You'd be much happier. Unhappiness reduces your life expectancy - as does constant hostility.
I like the idea of not really knowing who's in a system. I don't like it that local is a tattletale. Vyl's idea of making you appear in local only if you use it seems mechanically valid as it's already used in NPC corp chat. I also like the idea of classic intel gathering. I think it would make warfare require more SKILL. You'd need specialization - intel and counter intel. That would add a nice dimension to things that would have people grabbing for the gray matter.
I don't think what I think is what should be. It's what I think. Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one. Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:27:00 -
[101] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:What I see here in this thread, is plain and simple nullbears QQ. What you are say does not change this. Infact it would indeed worsen the situation.
Being in a cloaky does not give you all the intel in the system. Guess what. To find that out you have to move. Risk getting de-cloaked, bla bla bla. Infact by not being in the local, will make gathering intel a whole lot easier. They dont see you, they dont dock up. Thus hiding the ships they were using.
Then you would have the next wave crying QQ, We can't tell if theres a cloaky in our system, let us see the AFK cloakies so we know they're there and when they're not. So we can absolutey know, when we are safe to mine / bot
Local is not the broken mechanic here. What is broken is people's perception of a perceived threat.
o7
If being decloaked is even a remote possibility for you I recommend you just stop playing the game
o7 eh |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Local is not the broken mechanic here. What is broken is people's perception of a perceived threat. Well duh. But what's causing that perception is local, and if they to solve that GÇ£problemGÇ¥, local is where the GÇ£fixGÇ¥ needs to happen.
GǪof course, the real reason for their complaining is that they want to be able to get more information GÇö not that the information they already have is too much and too cheap to get. The funny part is presenting a solution to the problem they claim they have and see how horrified they are at the mere thought of it, thus demonstrating quite clearly that the problem isn't at all what they say it is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:34:00 -
[103] - Quote
I don't have a problem with AFK cloaking, the problem is when people suggest removing local as a solution because that's just stupid beyond belief
there's already a part of the game without local and it has 2000 systems eh |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6922
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:37:00 -
[104] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:I don't have a problem with AFK cloaking, the problem is when people suggest removing local as a solution because that's just stupid beyond belief GǪexcept it solves the problem completely since it removes AFK cloaking, both in terms of removing the practical application of it on the GÇ£attacker'sGÇ¥ part and in terms of removing the frustration on the defenders' side. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:38:00 -
[105] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:What I see here in this thread, is plain and simple nullbears QQ. What you are say does not change this. Infact it would indeed worsen the situation.
Being in a cloaky does not give you all the intel in the system. Guess what. To find that out you have to move. Risk getting de-cloaked, bla bla bla. Infact by not being in the local, will make gathering intel a whole lot easier. They dont see you, they dont dock up. Thus hiding the ships they were using.
Then you would have the next wave crying QQ, We can't tell if theres a cloaky in our system, let us see the AFK cloakies so we know they're there and when they're not. So we can absolutey know, when we are safe to mine / bot
Local is not the broken mechanic here. What is broken is people's perception of a perceived threat.
o7 If being decloaked is even a remote possibility for you I recommend you just stop playing the game o7
With my upmost oppologies, it would appear as if you have mis-understood my post
o7 |
Cosmic Fart
Cosmic Gas Corporation
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 21:00:00 -
[106] - Quote
Null-sec carebear tears are so cute.
AFK cloaking works as intended. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 21:29:00 -
[107] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:I don't have a problem with AFK cloaking, the problem is when people suggest removing local as a solution because that's just stupid beyond belief GǪexcept it solves the problem completely since it removes AFK cloaking, both in terms of removing the practical application of it on the Gǣattacker'sGǥ part and in terms of removing the frustration on the defenders' side.
for a problem to be solved it has to exist to begin with eh |
Heinrich Rotwang
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 21:48:00 -
[108] - Quote
Wild Rho wrote:[ The AFK cloaker can sit in a system all day but only needs to be actively used by the player when they (and possibly their friends) are ready to take action. If they're bored or there are no targets they can leave the character sitting there and go do something more interesting until an opportunity presents itself.
Welcome to the world of covert ops. The only thing thats wrong is local somehow magically exposing the precence of the cov ops ship.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
813
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 22:01:00 -
[109] - Quote
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:Welcome to the world of covert ops. The only thing thats wrong is local somehow magically exposing the precence of the cov ops ship. Love to covertly operate. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
197
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 22:13:00 -
[110] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:I think a guy earlier hit the nail on the head; cloaky campers mean that you either have to safe up, and stay safe, or you have to drag a support fleet with you to do so much as run an anomaly.
At which point the ISK per person might as well drop to nothing, not to mention a lot of boredom being injected into the game, at no cost at all to the "aggressor", whom may very well be completely AFK.
You have to act as though he or she isn't, though, and THAT is the problem... it's a broken mechanic in risk / reward for the attacker. They have absolutely no risk, and for 23.5 hours per day they get rewarded by harming their opponents economy.
Edit: To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with stealthy-on-stealthy warfare. I had some awesome times in Geminate with 2 enemy bomber / recon wings going at each other.
Or you could stop being a baby, have ONE of the baby carebears log on a combat alt, and then have it sit AFK waiting for cloak boy to show up. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6924
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 22:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:for a problem to be solved it has to exist to begin with ExactlyGǪ
GǪwhich is why AFK cloaking is so easily proven not to be an actual problem: because those who want to claim it is also don't want to see their problem solved.
That said, the actual problem with local is a separate issue and it's slated to be solvedGǪ somehowGǪ at some point. SoonGäó. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Hanuman Li Tosh
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 00:35:00 -
[112] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
The repercussions of cloaking are listed in the description of the cloaking mod you choose.
Just because you choose not to recognize something does not mean it does not exist.
I find intel gathering to be one of the things that kept me from un-subbing. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
814
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 00:49:00 -
[113] - Quote
AFK cloaking is an important PvP tactic, affecting whole solar systems at a time. Leave it alone, please, I want to afk cloak some more. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
166
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 00:54:00 -
[114] - Quote
I love how the null-bears are crying about if local was removed, so what? you have gate entrances, stick some scouts on them, the only problem you have then is the rare occasion wormhole spawn
Try wormholes you bleating morons, no local and any number of wormholes opening into yours at any time of the day. Some people just want to see eve easymode... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
815
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 01:08:00 -
[115] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:any number of wormholes opening into yours at any time of the day aww yeah ~~ keep telling me about it ~~<3
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
398
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 01:41:00 -
[116] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:Some people just want to see eve easymode...
yes, namely those who want local removed eh |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
815
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 02:03:00 -
[117] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:seany1212 wrote:Some people just want to see eve easymode... yes, namely those who want local removed Tell me more about the gankers who want easy ganks...
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Leetha Layne
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 02:11:00 -
[118] - Quote
I think people do it because "it puts a nit in people's craw" (Look it up) |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 03:52:00 -
[119] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
how do you know they were afk.. and if they were afk why were you worried? [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 04:31:00 -
[120] - Quote
Savage Angel wrote:I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks.
That single ship isn't what scares me, its the power hes able to project that does. He can at any time, find me in an anomoly, drop a cyno, and before i can even blink have 20 reds sitting right on top of me. Again, my main issue here is the non-interactivity of cloaking as it stands. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a discussion of having local or not, rather, whether or not cloaked ships should be able to be combat probed. |
|
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 04:40:00 -
[121] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Savage Angel wrote:I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks. That single ship isn't what scares me, its the power hes able to project that does. He can at any time, find me in an anomoly, drop a cyno, and before i can even blink have 20 reds sitting right on top of me. Again, my main issue here is the non-interactivity of cloaking as it stands. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a discussion of having local or not, rather, whether or not cloaked ships should be able to be combat probed.
Let me rephrase for you:
It is not the single suicide ganker that scares me, but the power that many project. He can at any time, find me in a belt, mark a position, and before I can blink have 5 suicide gankers right on top of me. Again, my main issue here is not the non-skill of suicide ganking as it stands. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a discussion of having suicide ganking or not, rather, whether the cost / benefit of suicide ganking is insanely wrong.
You null bear hypocrites make me sick.
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
405
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 04:47:00 -
[122] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:Eso Es wrote:Savage Angel wrote:I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks. That single ship isn't what scares me, its the power hes able to project that does. He can at any time, find me in an anomoly, drop a cyno, and before i can even blink have 20 reds sitting right on top of me. Again, my main issue here is the non-interactivity of cloaking as it stands. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a discussion of having local or not, rather, whether or not cloaked ships should be able to be combat probed. Let me rephrase for you: It is not the single suicide ganker that scares me, but the power that many project. He can at any time, find me in a belt, mark a position, and before I can blink have 5 suicide gankers right on top of me. Again, my main issue here is not the non-skill of suicide ganking as it stands. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a discussion of having suicide ganking or not, rather, whether the cost / benefit of suicide ganking is insanely wrong. You null bear hypocrites make me sick.
the difference is that a suicide ganker scans your ship, lines up a warpin and then gets those 5 dudes on top of you
"hmm why is that crucifier targeting me in this ice belt, surely he must have missed the humongous block of ice that he can't mine, maybe he's checking my ship's health!" eh |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
739
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 05:39:00 -
[123] - Quote
Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution.
Unfortunately, instead of discussing it, people go cycles parroting the same old irrelevant things about local, botting and balls. I couldn't care less if the cloaker scares some people or not, but the fact that you can run the most powerful module in the game forever and be 100% invulnerable forever is a broken mechanic by itself.
Doesn't have anything to do with local, it's the cloak module. Adding cloak fuel mechanic would force the cloaker to decloak and refuel periodically, which would make the whole thing more fun and interesting to all players, but annoy the hell out AFK alt cloak people.
In the beginning high security space was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 05:50:00 -
[124] - Quote
Wild Rho wrote:Zoe Athame wrote:Obligatory "Zero people have ever died to an AFK player." That''s either missing the point or ignoring the actual problem. The AFK cloaker can sit in a system all day but only needs to be actively used by the player when they (and possibly their friends) are ready to take action. If they're bored or there are no targets they can leave the character sitting there and go do something more interesting until an opportunity presents itself. On the other hand the defenders have no idea when the cloaker is active or genuinely afk. Their only response is to remain docked and do nothing or to actively form a gang to protect whatever activity is going on. This sounds reasonable at first but what this means is several things are stacked against the defenders: - Several defenders are forced to stop what they are doing to baby sit others and (if they have an organised defence) there is then a realistic chance that nothing will happen. The attacker only requires a single character and can be active when they feel like it. Also maintaining this type of defence constantly is neither engaging or fun. - An attack is only likely to occur if the attackers know they have enough of an advantage to win, the defenders can never preempt this or counter attack. - The attackers will always have the advantage of knowing what they are engaging in advance, the defenders have no information at all until the attack is launched. - The attackers have the advantage of mobility since their goal is typically combat orientated and they can move elsewhere. Defender goals are usually around resource collection of some form which is mostly static, so the option to move around is limited. None of this is really the fault of either side, it's just the inevitable outcome of Eves mechanics that hand out information to the players at no cost or effort.
And now you know how miners feel in high sec. Every unknown is a potential ganker. Very close to the same level of helplessness and worry. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
821
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 06:32:00 -
[125] - Quote
Hammer Crendraven wrote:And now you know how miners feel in high sec. Every unknown is a potential ganker. Very close to the same level of helplessness and worry. Love to rat with stealth bombers in local. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 06:33:00 -
[126] - Quote
greeny knight wrote:wel the discution is years old and i'm 8 years old most in nullsec and i'm a damn good cov op pilot and they need to fix this afk cloacking s******.
if you are a miner and you have a nice system you always mine 1 afk cloacker can ruing your game , in inferno ccp claims to have a counterfit to every fit in game , wel here is some news they don't that afk cloacking is broken and gives alot of people alot of greef , here are some viable selutions that can solve this problem in the gamespirrit of eve .
sugestion 1
as the covop mod is active its a invisable bubble that cant get the gasses out and need to be vented every 10 min so it decloacks for a set timer say 30 sec , if the cloack button is not prest it stays uncloacked
suggestion 2 (my favorite)
create a ghosthunter specialized to hunt cloackies no offencive weapons filled to the eyeballs with electronica to spot them and decloack them prob verry fragile not cloackable basicly a flying coffin when the cloacky is not afk
suggestion 3 (also my fav )
we still have the deep space probes thea are basicly useless now , convert them to ghost hunter probes that can launched from a cov op or a specialized ship to reviel cloackies
Love suggestion 3.
"And now you know how miners feel in high sec. Every unknown is a potential ganker. Very close to the same level of helplessness and worry. "
Can we seriously stop talking about HiSec ganking, the mechanic im discussing has absolutely nothing to do with HiSec ganking, when was the last time you were hotdropped by a cloaked ship in HiSec, oh wait, NEVER? Yea thx, kk. |
Americe Zane
Symbol Of Chaos
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 06:45:00 -
[127] - Quote
Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution.
Unfortunately, instead of discussing it, people go cycles parroting the same old irrelevant things about local, botting and balls. I couldn't care less if the cloaker scares some people or not, but the fact that you can run the most powerful module in the game forever and be 100% invulnerable forever is a broken mechanic by itself.
Doesn't have anything to do with local, it's the cloak module. Adding cloak fuel mechanic would force the cloaker to decloak and refuel periodically, which would make the whole thing more fun and interesting to all players, but annoy the hell out AFK alt cloak people.
Sure, I can be invulnerable forever, same as someone who sit in station all the time can. If I want to probe, I have to decloak first often long enough for someone else to probe me down. If I want to see where people are and what they are in, I risk a chance of being decloaked by random things. It is a powerful module, but there are accepted drawbacks that we take.
Adding a fuel will be pointless. How would you balance it? Too much fuel needed will eliminate extended deployments and intel gathering the ships were designed to do, too little and it might as well not be there.
All in all, it isnt an issue of AFK cloaking. I have yet to see a KM made by someone AFK. If a SB solo or in a gang killed a ship, good on them. If another cloaked ship cynos a gang in, then well played. In both cases, planning and manpower went into it, and I doubt that the the cloaked status of the ship made all that much difference. If it did, then isnt that what those ships are for? |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 06:48:00 -
[128] - Quote
Americe Zane wrote:Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution.
Unfortunately, instead of discussing it, people go cycles parroting the same old irrelevant things about local, botting and balls. I couldn't care less if the cloaker scares some people or not, but the fact that you can run the most powerful module in the game forever and be 100% invulnerable forever is a broken mechanic by itself.
Doesn't have anything to do with local, it's the cloak module. Adding cloak fuel mechanic would force the cloaker to decloak and refuel periodically, which would make the whole thing more fun and interesting to all players, but annoy the hell out AFK alt cloak people.
Sure, I can be invulnerable forever, same as someone who sit in station all the time can. If I want to probe, I have to decloak first often long enough for someone else to probe me down. If I want to see where people are and what they are in, I risk a chance of being decloaked by random things. It is a powerful module, but there are accepted drawbacks that we take. Adding a fuel will be pointless. How would you balance it? Too much fuel needed will eliminate extended deployments and intel gathering the ships were designed to do, too little and it might as well not be there. All in all, it isnt an issue of AFK cloaking. I have yet to see a KM made by someone AFK. If a SB solo or in a gang killed a ship, good on them. If another cloaked ship cynos a gang in, then well played. In both cases, planning and manpower went into it, and I doubt that the the cloaked status of the ship made all that much difference. If it did, then isnt that what those ships are for?
The point is, the defenders HAS NO IDEA if the person is AFK or not. I see them in local, they've been there for 2 days, maybe I can go rat a bit.. or maybe hes at his computer waiting to drop me. You begin to see how 1 person can shut down a corporation's ops just by being logged in in system, and theres not a damn thing said corp can do about it other than twiddle their thumbs for a few days and hope said "afker" goes away. |
Americe Zane
Symbol Of Chaos
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 06:54:00 -
[129] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Americe Zane wrote:Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution.
Unfortunately, instead of discussing it, people go cycles parroting the same old irrelevant things about local, botting and balls. I couldn't care less if the cloaker scares some people or not, but the fact that you can run the most powerful module in the game forever and be 100% invulnerable forever is a broken mechanic by itself.
Doesn't have anything to do with local, it's the cloak module. Adding cloak fuel mechanic would force the cloaker to decloak and refuel periodically, which would make the whole thing more fun and interesting to all players, but annoy the hell out AFK alt cloak people.
Sure, I can be invulnerable forever, same as someone who sit in station all the time can. If I want to probe, I have to decloak first often long enough for someone else to probe me down. If I want to see where people are and what they are in, I risk a chance of being decloaked by random things. It is a powerful module, but there are accepted drawbacks that we take. Adding a fuel will be pointless. How would you balance it? Too much fuel needed will eliminate extended deployments and intel gathering the ships were designed to do, too little and it might as well not be there. All in all, it isnt an issue of AFK cloaking. I have yet to see a KM made by someone AFK. If a SB solo or in a gang killed a ship, good on them. If another cloaked ship cynos a gang in, then well played. In both cases, planning and manpower went into it, and I doubt that the the cloaked status of the ship made all that much difference. If it did, then isnt that what those ships are for? The point is, the defenders HAS NO IDEA if the person is AFK or not. I see them in local, they've been there for 2 days, maybe I can go rat a bit.. or maybe hes at his computer waiting to drop me. You begin to see how 1 person can shut down a corporation's ops just by being logged in in system, and theres not a damn thing said corp can do about it other than twiddle their thumbs for a few days and hope said "afker" goes away.
If he is able to to drop you and you have no defense, you were outplayed. Its not like the cloaky and the other people he was working with dropped you passively. Wouldnt that play into the risk part of the risk vs reward thing people always talk about? |
Gorenaire
Theosophical Society
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 07:03:00 -
[130] - Quote
I thinkn we need a dozen more threads about this non issue |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6927
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 07:22:00 -
[131] - Quote
Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution. That's because it's a pretty bad solution. Either it wouldn't restrict cloaking for long enough to appease those who are afraid of local, or it will be so restricting that it breaks cloaking.
The reason local keeps coming up is because that's where the supposed problem of AFK cloaking resides: people are getting their panties in a twist due to having their perfect free intel tool subverted. They want to be able to be able to use local to determine who is a threat and who isn't. The presence of AFK cloaking makes this less reliable.
The core issue is that, at the end of the day, AFK cloakers aren't doing anything. The residents of the system are the ones who choose to be disrupted; who choose not to try to not control their space; who cannot conceive of any way to protect themselves; and generally to stick their heads in the sand and complain about their own choices. It's a psychological warfare tool that subverts intel and provides the single counter to the source of intel that local provides.
The two are inextricably linked. Want to fix one? Then you have to adjust the other. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 07:56:00 -
[132] - Quote
i wonder how many times this thread will be recreated. OP is just butt hurt on being popped by someone who was AFK cloaked in the system. I know how the guy waited out everyone.....so simple you be suprised.....logged in. set toon in deep safe spot cloaked up and possibly moving....then proceeds to go to work for about 8 to 10 hours.....comes back and sees the candy waiting to die.
Null Care bears are starting to give the Empire carebears a bad name |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
740
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 07:57:00 -
[133] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution. That's because it's a pretty bad solution. Either it wouldn't restrict cloaking for long enough to appease those who are afraid of local, or it will be so restricting that it breaks cloaking.
You are referring to balancing the fuel consumption, and I don't really agree that it's impossible to do right. Like Tobiaz said, linking it to signature radius makes a lot of sense. Covopses would still be able to cloak for extended periods.
I'm not afraid of local (I don't have one where I live) and spend most of my time in cloaky ships, I just find cloak fuel an interesting mechanic that could add more tactical gameplay than being able to cloak any ship forever. I'm all in for fun & excitement, and being deep in enemy territory and running low on cloak fuel would certainly be exciting.
Also, another player-made item is always good. Make the ingredients low-sec ladar site only
At the same time, make cyno only mountable on selected T2 ships and increase cyno theory training time multiplier to 8x, and change it so that when you get killed with cyno fitted, you lose one level of cyno skill (like T3s). I don't think EVE needs armies of disposable cyno alts in T1 frigs. In the beginning high security space was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
822
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Roime wrote:Tippia wrote:Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution. That's because it's a pretty bad solution. Either it wouldn't restrict cloaking for long enough to appease those who are afraid of local, or it will be so restricting that it breaks cloaking. You are referring to balancing the fuel consumption, and I don't really agree that it's impossible to do right. Like Tobiaz said, linking it to signature radius makes a lot of sense. Covopses would still be able to cloak for extended periods. I'm not afraid of local (I don't have one where I live) and spend most of my time in cloaky ships, I just find cloak fuel an interesting mechanic that could add more tactical gameplay than being able to cloak any ship forever. I'm all in for fun & excitement, and being deep in enemy territory and running low on cloak fuel would certainly be exciting. Also, another player-made item is always good. Make the ingredients low-sec ladar site only At the same time, make cyno only mountable on selected T2 ships and increase cyno theory training time multiplier to 8x, and change it so that when you get killed with cyno fitted, you lose one level of cyno skill (like T3s). I don't think EVE needs armies of disposable cyno alts in T1 frigs. It would be amusing. Right now all the stealth bombers go out with a cargohold of nothing but torpedos because what else would you ever bring.
Still though, I'd prefer be able to cloak forever. Meh. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:08:00 -
[135] - Quote
I love AFK Cloaking tear threads. Nullbears are as terrible as hisec bears. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
410
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:19:00 -
[136] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:I love AFK Cloaking tear threads. Nullbears are as terrible as hisec bears. yes i assure you that your wormhole alliance (which is in wormholes because they didn't cut it in nullsec) is obviously very hardened, living on the edge in eve online with the cutting-edge gameplay that is dscan spam eh |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:20:00 -
[137] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Savage Angel wrote:I love these threads. Goes to show the hypocrisy of the players that whine about Empire needing more risk for the rewards and how players should be "forced" into nulsec. If you quiver in a POS when a single ship is sitting in the same system doing nothing, don't talk to me about risks. That single ship isn't what scares me, its the power hes able to project that does. He can at any time, find me in an anomoly, drop a cyno, and before i can even blink have 20 reds sitting right on top of me. Again, my main issue here is the non-interactivity of cloaking as it stands. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a discussion of having local or not, rather, whether or not cloaked ships should be able to be combat probed.
He can't find you if he's AFK. And there are plenty of instances where he can't just instantly find you and get the drop on you - for example, depending on where you are and what you're doing, he might have to use combat probes. In that case, it is up to you to check your d-scan and keep checking it. If you see probes narrowing in on your location then leave before he gets a hit. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:23:00 -
[138] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:I love AFK Cloaking tear threads. Nullbears are as terrible as hisec bears. yes i assure you that your wormhole alliance (which is in wormholes because they didn't cut it in nullsec) is obviously very hardened, living on the edge in eve online with the cutting-edge gameplay that is dscan spam
"didn't cut it in nullsec"
Sorry but wormhole alliances aren't the ones who run screaming and crying back to their pos because an AFK player is in the same system, then spread their tears all over the forums begging CCP to protect them from players who aren't even there and can't do a damned thing. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
410
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:25:00 -
[139] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:"didn't cut it in nullsec"
Sorry but wormhole alliances aren't the ones who run screaming and crying back to their pos because an AFK player is in the same system, then spread their tears all over the forums begging CCP to protect them from players who aren't even there and can't do a damned thing.
yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space eh |
Christa Larne
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:36:00 -
[140] - Quote
In my opinion the issue here is risk versus reward. Many posters have talked about miners being too risk averse to mine with a hostile in system - I guess I can relate to that and I agree that is their choice. They know what the risks are and the rewards and can make their own informed choice.
What is unbalanced is that for the cloaked ship there is very little risk to offset the potential reward of getting kills. You can park at a safespot, aligned to something under cloak, and you know 100% that there is no risk to your ship and character. I don't really care what mechanic is used but we need to introduce some element of risk to leaving a ship cloaked in a system. Whether it be fuel, or some sort of anti-cloak probing module, I don't really care but there needs to be some element of risk.
Personally I would prefer to see some sort of cloak scanning device. Not because I want to stop AFK-cloaking but because I want to kill them! I logon and see a red in my system I want to hunt it down and kill it but today I can't do that because only the cloaker gets to decide when they engage (which will generally be at the point of lowest risk to them). For sure make it so that scanning down a cloaked ship is a slow and painful activity, and of course a smart cloaked pilot will switch safespots from time to time in order to restart the scanning cycle, but it would add a lot of risk to just going AFK and leaving your ship in space.
Of course this is all fairly irrelevant. From the comments posted earlier from CSM it looks like CCP can't do anything to change cloaking without assigning significant development resource that they don't want to take away from other projects. Which is a shame because irrespective of the whole null bear / ganker debate I think we are missing a potentially fun additional game mechanic in the ability to actively hunt cloaked ships. |
|
AFK Cloaker
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:37:00 -
[141] - Quote
. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
219
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:42:00 -
[142] - Quote
REMOVE LOCAL! EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6928
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:43:00 -
[143] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space It is the behaviour or everyone who has ever complained about AFK cloakers.
Christa Larne wrote:What is unbalanced is that for the cloaked ship there is very little risk to offset the potential reward of getting kills. You can park at a safespot, aligned to something under cloak, and you know 100% that there is no risk to your ship and character. There is also no reward for doing that, so that's pretty balanced as far as risk-vs-reward is concernedGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
410
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:44:00 -
[144] - Quote
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:REMOVE LOCAL!
yes clearly local is the reason you're not getting any ratter kills, it can't be your overconfidence because you're obviously the best pvper ever eh |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
410
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:45:00 -
[145] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space It is the behaviour or everyone who has ever complained about AFK cloakers.
i.e. renters and fair-weather carebears who scream at a wall about something that is not a problem eh |
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:50:00 -
[146] - Quote
whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year.... |
Americe Zane
Symbol Of Chaos
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 08:51:00 -
[147] - Quote
Christa Larne wrote:In my opinion the issue here is risk versus reward. Many posters have talked about miners being too risk averse to mine with a hostile in system - I guess I can relate to that and I agree that is their choice. They know what the risks are and the rewards and can make their own informed choice.
What is unbalanced is that for the cloaked ship there is very little risk to offset the potential reward of getting kills. You can park at a safespot, aligned to something under cloak, and you know 100% that there is no risk to your ship and character. I don't really care what mechanic is used but we need to introduce some element of risk to leaving a ship cloaked in a system. Whether it be fuel, or some sort of anti-cloak probing module, I don't really care but there needs to be some element of risk.
Personally I would prefer to see some sort of cloak scanning device. Not because I want to stop AFK-cloaking but because I want to kill them! I logon and see a red in my system I want to hunt it down and kill it but today I can't do that because only the cloaker gets to decide when they engage (which will generally be at the point of lowest risk to them). For sure make it so that scanning down a cloaked ship is a slow and painful activity, and of course a smart cloaked pilot will switch safespots from time to time in order to restart the scanning cycle, but it would add a lot of risk to just going AFK and leaving your ship in space.
Of course this is all fairly irrelevant. From the comments posted earlier from CSM it looks like CCP can't do anything to change cloaking without assigning significant development resource that they don't want to take away from other projects. Which is a shame because irrespective of the whole null bear / ganker debate I think we are missing a potentially fun additional game mechanic in the ability to actively hunt cloaked ships.
What is the point of a cloaked ship if it can be scanned down?
There are downsides to flying a cloaky ship. A SB can be popped very easily, for example. Sure, its safe to be in a safe spot cloaked. But what are the rewards? You have to take chances to find someone. You have to uncloak to launch probes or the possibility of landing on something that will uncloak you.
There is always a risk of being attacked in 0.0. If you cant fend off a single ship, maybe bringing a friend will help.
It seems most of the angst has to do with someone being AFK, though. I dont see how that is a legit problem. |
RAP ACTION HERO
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 09:06:00 -
[148] - Quote
but i heard some they are going to do a afk cloaking thing to the goons in deklein. |
Lexar Mundi
EVE Pilots for the Ethical Treatment of Asteroids
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 09:16:00 -
[149] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved. Bombing runs make this impractical. You can camp a system with a fleet and no one knows you are there. Then make a per-aligned bombing run that takes 3 seconds to execute and warp off to freedom with a completely accurate assessment of the enemy force. Makes Stealth Bomber Ganking 99% Risk Free.
Sounds like Wormhole Space, doesn't it lmao.
Nul sec shouldn't have local, afk cloakers wouldnt have a reason to sit there unless they plan on decloaking and blow something up.
You know how you combat a afk cloaked ship... go about your business and when he decloaks kill the SOB.
~edit~ if you have a problem with someone afk in a cloak ship and you want him to be found... what about low sec where people AFK in stations... you want them to get ejected if the are away too long? |
Elena Melkan
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 09:39:00 -
[150] - Quote
Lexar Mundi wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved. Bombing runs make this impractical. You can camp a system with a fleet and no one knows you are there. Then make a per-aligned bombing run that takes 3 seconds to execute and warp off to freedom with a completely accurate assessment of the enemy force. Makes Stealth Bomber Ganking 99% Risk Free. Sounds like Wormhole Space, doesn't it lmao. Yes, with couple of exceptions...
To enter certain Wormhole, you need to scan down entrances to it. The entrances will change their places eventually. Also entrance may collapse, if you take too many ships through it. I could imagine this makes co-ordinated bomber fleet assaults to Wormhole space more difficult.
To enter a certain nullsec system, you simply need to take a gate. It will always be there at the same place and you can take as many ships through it as you want and it won't collapse.
See the slight difference in nullsec and wormhole space? |
|
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 10:00:00 -
[151] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:"didn't cut it in nullsec"
Sorry but wormhole alliances aren't the ones who run screaming and crying back to their pos because an AFK player is in the same system, then spread their tears all over the forums begging CCP to protect them from players who aren't even there and can't do a damned thing. yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space
Exhale have succeeded in the eve-online endgame that is not being a bunch of pussies who run to their pos and sob when a single unknown jumps into one of their systems. I am truly astonished at the amount of players who live in nullsec who can't handle a single player loitering around in their little system. The fact you even know they're there at all is a massive help, yet thats not good enough for you and you still cry for more security (via decloaking timers, ability to probe out cloaked ships, or whatever other stupid, stupid ideas you whiners come up with) |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 10:30:00 -
[152] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Roime wrote:Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution. That's because it's a pretty bad solution. Either it wouldn't restrict cloaking for long enough to appease those who are afraid of local, or it will be so restricting that it breaks cloaking. The reason local keeps coming up is because that's where the supposed problem of AFK cloaking resides: people are getting their panties in a twist due to having their perfect free intel tool subverted. They want to be able to be able to use local to determine who is a threat and who isn't. The presence of AFK cloaking makes this less reliable. The core issue is that, at the end of the day, AFK cloakers aren't doing anything. The residents of the system are the ones who choose to be disrupted; who choose not to try to not control their space; who cannot conceive of any way to protect themselves; and generally to stick their heads in the sand and complain about their own choices. It's a psychological warfare tool that subverts intel and provides the single counter to the source of intel that local provides. The two are inextricably linked. Want to fix one? Then you have to adjust the other.
Afk cloaking indeed isn't a problem. But I can see people being somewhat rightly frustrated by dedicated semi-afk cloaking. Have you ever been on a receiving end of such a thing? Guy sits in system 23.5/7, once every few hours checks scan and if the stars are right, drops ten stealth bombers on you. He can asses the situation pretty well and hence he is not risking much by hotdropping. But it can get really frustrating if you try defending against that, you basically have to have a fleet formed during enemy peak hours doing nothing but sitting on a pos/station/next system gate being alert all the time, doing nothing but waiting for the distress call of the bait ship. Not fun. In the end, the most efficient way is just to relocate to a different system, and let all the hard work you did on getting military/mining indexes up go void.
That isn't much of problem in current political situation in null, where alliancies typically control an entire region and are allowed to rat everywhere. But if CCP actually introduced treties, build-in renter options or some such, and start-up alliances would only have a handful of systems to their disposal, a small dedicated group could shut up fleding null enterprises with minimal effort.
Not saying it is good or bad (HTFU still applies), it is just how it is right now. It is also why some people are calling for some active means to combat cloaky cyno ships, however difficult/time consuming those means may be. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 11:41:00 -
[153] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
the answer is simple,,, remove local see this post >>>CLICK ME<<<
|
Degren
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
333
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 11:47:00 -
[154] - Quote
Well I'm off to work.
My six cloaky alts all have cynos/fuel equipped in enemy space.
Occasionally I'll use a remote access android app to dscan, send up an alert and then pop said cyno.
I'm just super satisfied everytime a ratting nightmare or tengu dies to a swarm. They should have stayed aligned.
Cloak tank best tank.
Cyno dps best dps. :) |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 11:49:00 -
[155] - Quote
Degren wrote:Well I'm off to work.
My six cloaky alts all have cynos/fuel equipped in enemy space.
Occasionally I'll use a remote access android app to dscan, send up an alert and then pop said cyno.
I'm just super satisfied everytime a ratting nightmare or tengu dies to a swarm. They should have stayed aligned.
don't you mean,, well i'm clocking off work, i might remote in later to check on things. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
598
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 12:09:00 -
[156] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. You can be present in local and not be a threat, and you can be absent from local and still be a threat.
If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine. The point is, if you're not blue you're immediately perceived as a threat. If you're absent from local then there is no afk cloaking whine because you are not in the system and cannot be a threat to anyone there perceived or not. If you're not there, you can't do anything to anyone in that system.
Quote: It means cloaking your ship actually cloaks your ship, and that this is a double-blind (or, not entirelyGǪ one-and-three-quarters-blind maybe) state. If you want to find a target for your bombing run, you have to manually warp around (and risk being uncloaked) or use probes (and be spotted on dscan). Yes, you can still use dscan to look for people, but there's a limit to what you can do with that information and what it actually includes.
OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local.
Quote: It increases the stakes on both sides of the fence: people can no longer tell whether a cloaker is in the system (AFK or not GÇö it doesn't matter), but a cloaker can also no longer tell that there are any targets in the systemGǪ or whether they have backup. It provides buffs and nerfs to both sides: the psychological warfare of just being there is gone GÇö you have to actually prove that you're active for it to work, but baiting any such potential attackers is also much easier.
The psychological factor having an unknown neut/red in local is replaced (on both sides) by the psychological factor of inherently being unable to determine whether anyone is watching or notGǪ
Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
doombreed52
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 14:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
Can we reset SMA now and take thier tech moons? |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 14:15:00 -
[158] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:I love AFK Cloaking tear threads. Nullbears are as terrible as hisec bears.
I love how the second I even think about shooting a rat Im deamed "a carebear". I'd like to PvP, PvP costs money, Im skilled in such a way that lets me shoot stuff....there must be something I can do to make the ISK I need to get blown up in glorious PvP fire...
Also Im not raging cuz I lost my ship to a hotdrop, Im angry because my ISK making ability was shut down for 3 days by a single guy that was (maybe?) not at his computer for more than a few hours a day. For all of you crying "Set up a defense, problem solved" let me direct you to this excellent post:
Wild Rho wrote:Zoe Athame wrote:Obligatory "Zero people have ever died to an AFK player." That''s either missing the point or ignoring the actual problem. The AFK cloaker can sit in a system all day but only needs to be actively used by the player when they (and possibly their friends) are ready to take action. If they're bored or there are no targets they can leave the character sitting there and go do something more interesting until an opportunity presents itself. On the other hand the defenders have no idea when the cloaker is active or genuinely afk. Their only response is to remain docked and do nothing or to actively form a gang to protect whatever activity is going on. This sounds reasonable at first but what this means is several things are stacked against the defenders: - Several defenders are forced to stop what they are doing to baby sit others and (if they have an organised defence) there is then a realistic chance that nothing will happen. The attacker only requires a single character and can be active when they feel like it. Also maintaining this type of defence constantly is neither engaging or fun. - An attack is only likely to occur if the attackers know they have enough of an advantage to win, the defenders can never preempt this or counter attack. - The attackers will always have the advantage of knowing what they are engaging in advance, the defenders have no information at all until the attack is launched. - The attackers have the advantage of mobility since their goal is typically combat orientated and they can move elsewhere. Defender goals are usually around resource collection of some form which is mostly static, so the option to move around is limited. None of this is really the fault of either side, it's just the inevitable outcome of Eves mechanics that hand out information to the players at no cost or effort.
So the defender cannot even make an educated as to enemy strength, if the enemy is stronger they attack, if they are weaker the waste hours of others people's time and never attack at all. Let me iterate my point, cloaking a ship effectively removes a player from interacting with other players Sure, sitting in a station does the same thing, but the station is meant to be a point of safety and rest, and a player can always dock in said station and see whether or not the player is there. Its a small interaction, but one nonetheless that exists. Why are so many so opposed to having more interaction. Remove local or don't remove local, I dont really care, Ive lived in WHs and I enjoyed not using local. Make cloakers not show up in local, fine. But give us a way to interact with said cloaker, whether it be an anti-cloak ewar ship, or specialized probes, ANYTHING, but IMO more player interaction=more fun. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6935
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 14:18:00 -
[159] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine. Close, but not quite. If you're an unknown in local, people assume you're a threat, regardless of whether you are one or notGǪ and thus we have the endless AFK cloaking whines. That's kind of my point: people assume a connection between the data and its meaning that isn't really there. Making the mechanics enforce a much sharper disconnect between the two might snap people out of that flawed perception.
Quote:OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local. Nah, it's a more of a double-blind system. The comms system can't pick you up; you can't use the comms system. It comes with both benefits and detriments. I think the original suggestion (now lost in the depth of the forum archives) also suggested a spool-up time on cynos to make them mutually detrimental as well, since that's the thing people are really worried about.
Quote:Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you. The importance really lies in hose five words: GÇ£if they're paying attentionGÇ¥. I have no problems with intel being used in various ways (and it being subverted) GÇö I have a problem with it being done automatically for you. At that point, it's no longer intel GÇö it's an automated alarm system. If that attacking cloaker fleet leaves a trail of bread-crumbs behind for the eagle-eyed to spot, then that's excellent! That means you both sides have to exercise some situational awareness and stealth to gain an advantage over the other side. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
knulla
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 14:21:00 -
[160] - Quote
Make all local in eve like WH local. |
|
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 18:28:00 -
[161] - Quote
Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic
Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away.
|
baltec1
1182
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 18:31:00 -
[162] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away.
Or have ships on standby for such an event. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
822
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 18:33:00 -
[163] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Eso Es wrote:Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away. Or have ships on standby for such an event. So, it's about a blob of covert ships jumping through a covops BS bridge? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 20:52:00 -
[164] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:baltec1 wrote:Eso Es wrote:Emuar wrote:whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic Cyno jammers don't stop covert cynos. I feel like Im repeating myself here (because I definately am), its not one afk ship thats the problem, its the threat they represent that is, and its a threat that has NO counter other than dock up and hope it goes away. Or have ships on standby for such an event. So, it's about a blob of covert ships jumping through a covops BS bridge?
Its about the 1 guy that has the ability to project this threat and the defenders have no course of action other than to camp the entries to their system 24/7 with insta locking ships to prevent entry of said cloaker. Make cloaking more interactive (specialized probes and/or detection ships), as a compensation to the ganker, remove cloaked pilots from local. I'd be 100% satisfied with this as both the defenders and the attackers have the means and opportunity to achieve their goals. |
Dawn Flare
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 10:50:00 -
[165] - Quote
As I have already mentioned about hiding cloakers from local... That turns cloaks into EZ-mode logoff traps. Logoff traps that still let you see whats on grid to boot, so you know when your prey is in range to strike. |
Plentath
Sudden Buggery
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 11:55:00 -
[166] - Quote
I live in a WH.
When I get the idea there is an AFK cloaker in system I take precautions. You can never be sure one way or the other whether you're going to get jumped or not.
I am yet to die to one.
Yet apparently, a guy AFK cloaking in nullsec is a cause for OMG LOCKDOWN ALL THE THINGS!! ZOMG!! OH NO!!
Pathetic.
If a guy's name in a list terrifies you then you should really consider going back to highsec, minimising the window, and carrying on with your thing.
I support cloaking devices removing you from local. That way, when you see the name popup in local, you can take all the same precautions that you would otherwise and you know he's at the keys / kill-able. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:03:00 -
[167] - Quote
Plentath wrote:I live in a WH.
When I get the idea there is an AFK cloaker in system I take precautions. You can never be sure one way or the other whether you're going to get jumped or not.
I am yet to die to one.
Yet apparently, a guy AFK cloaking in nullsec is a cause for OMG LOCKDOWN ALL THE THINGS!! ZOMG!! OH NO!!
Pathetic.
there's these things called "cynos," maybe you've heard of them?
Plentath wrote:I support cloaking devices removing you from local. That way, when you see the name popup in local, you can take all the same precautions that you would otherwise and you know he's at the keys / kill-able.
that's a bad idea and you should feel bad eh |
Kalpel
KBM
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:12:00 -
[168] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
I know how you feel and I agree with you, but It is what it is for a reason and that reason is hot drops. Now if people would not rat in systems with a cloaker than most of if not all cloakers wouldn't cloak, but they get easy kills and stop you from ratting and this is why they do what they do.......
Best thing to do is set them up like we use to do with haulers that look like a nice juicy kill, but the hauler was rigged with point, web and a battleship like tank LOL! ahhh the good ol days hehehe You failed to target nothing!-áGëívGëí online |
Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M Persona Non Gratis
64
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:23:00 -
[169] - Quote
so while afk cloakers are mostly boring and sometimes a mild annoyance to live with it would be nice if there was something you could do to hunt them.
Perhaps something like an EMP pulse module you could discharge for a period in a system that would give them a chance of showing up when you are probing or something?
It shouldn't be over powered: It should show up on d-scan or even the overview so that the cloaky would still know that they were being searched for and have chance to take evasive action - just like if you are safed up you can see probes on the d-scan and know that you need to change your strategy.
It also wouldn't preclude most cloaky activity either - the use of a special module (and you could even have it so the EMP (or whatever) module and the probes have to be on separate ships) would mean that it would only be used specifically when cloaked ships were a threat |
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:28:00 -
[170] - Quote
Remove local from null sec. That way u're not gonna worry anymore about afk cloaked pilots |
|
Rocinantae
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:28:00 -
[171] - Quote
How about having the ability to detect cloaked ships based on sig radius of the cloaked ship. Having cloaking enlarge that sig radius like with micro-warp drives. Then give the ships that are supposed to fit cloaks a bonus to sig radius. They would still have to move around but would be harder to get a drop on using probes. You could also have sig radius grow steadily as a ship is in system unless it warps which would take the ships sig back to its base +/- bonuses. Then if someone afks they're easy picking for a dedicated covops. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace n Quiet
133
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:32:00 -
[172] - Quote
AFK Cloaker = Someone who is AWAY FROM KEYBOARD. Hardly a threat if they aren't even at their computer are they? Please can people stop using this term now? |
Hicksimus
Slaxtopia Reverberation Project
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:33:00 -
[173] - Quote
Plentath wrote:I live in a WH.
So have I and there are some things I'd like to remind you of. You don't have to deal with the griefing done by bored players because those bored players are much too lazy to scan most of the time. All of your sites are scanned down, I scan mine down and use my cov ops to make long bookmarks making me even safer(sometimes I even bubble the warp in). AFK cloakers in W-space are not scary because 1)there aren't many and 2)they aren't going to light a cyno for their main and all of his capital/blops buddies who are also bored.
Sure, there are a couple of wormhole griefers, but w-space and deep null are the safest places in EvE.
Between the relatively low price of PLEX and the wormhole/nullsec PvE isk opportunities many players can lock down 5 or 6 systems with these alts all month without their wallets being bothered. Thankfully many of them choose not to or much of nullsec and lowsec would be empty.
Edit: Also, it's a completely risk free on/off switch for pvp since they don't have to be in the corp they light the cyno for you have no idea who's doing it. Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money |
Republic Citizen
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:48:00 -
[174] - Quote
2 topicstarter: Adapt or die. Never publish your kills/losses, it's nothing more than a useful information for your enemies.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
752
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:49:00 -
[175] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote: Sure, there are a couple of wormhole griefers, but w-space and deep null are the safest places in EvE.
Suddenly, a wild K162 appears! Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
FluffyDice
StarFckers Inc.
194
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 12:49:00 -
[176] - Quote
I wouldn't have a problem with AFK cloaking if titan bridging wasn't a thing. Personally I just move to another system where the cloaker is not though if I want to do anything. |
Kast Agnet
The Nexus 7's ORPHANS OF EVE
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 13:09:00 -
[177] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
If they nerf afk pos sitting then you can take my afk cloaking. Until then keep an eye out
|
Elaine Threepwood
D00M. Northern Coalition.
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 13:11:00 -
[178] - Quote
Oh look its this thread again. |
Marcus Caspius
Vitriol Ventures Tribal Dragons
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 13:16:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ituhata Saken wrote:There are only 3 things that worry me about a cloaked ship in system. One is the possibility that this person may not always be afk. Two is that this person may have a point fitted. But third, and most importantly, is the fact this person may have a cyno fitted. Although it is very rare I have had the unfortunate circumstance of observing all 3 probabilities to be true.
Edit: Insert obligatory Schrodinger's Cat joke here.
That is the crux of the matter. I've tanked Stealth Bombers galore - not a problem... in fact if he's a douche you could even kill him, but there is no defence against Superior Hot Drops!
They have initiative, they have numbers, they have all the Intel.
|
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
97
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 14:21:00 -
[180] - Quote
Every time i see "Remove afk cloaking" thread i laugh. Another pledge for nerf. How many times in gaming history and in CCP history nerfing resulted in lost subscriptions. Nerfing something like cloaking even touching it will result in massive outrage.
You whine about afk cloakers then you whine about afk Titans and then you will whine about pvp. Stop being a loser and start learning how to counter it using in game tools instead of pledging to nerf something that you impotent to counter. There is already placed in game perfect tools for countering afk cloaking. If you cant do that may be High sec is your place or perhaps you fail as commander if you cant organize simple op to squeeze out afk cloakers.
Stop whining and start thinking. |
|
Djavue
Ghetto Booty Development
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 14:25:00 -
[181] - Quote
Literally the only people who complain about afk cloakers are botters in 0.0 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
861
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 14:27:00 -
[182] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:You whine about afk cloakers then you whine about afk Titans and then you will whine about pvp. Stop being a loser and start learning how to counter it using in game tools instead of pledging to nerf something that you impotent to counter. If you find an afk titan, please open a convo with DaBigRedBoat. Make sure you have a cyno ship and a supercapital-tackling ship available (preferably several of the latter). Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 15:48:00 -
[183] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Every time i see "Remove afk cloaking" thread i laugh. Another pledge for nerf. How many times in gaming history and in CCP history nerfing resulted in lost subscriptions. Nerfing something like cloaking even touching it will result in massive outrage.
You whine about afk cloakers then you whine about afk Titans and then you will whine about pvp. Stop being a loser and start learning how to counter it using in game tools instead of pledging to nerf something that you impotent to counter. There is already placed in game perfect tools for countering afk cloaking. If you cant do that may be High sec is your place or perhaps you fail as commander if you cant organize simple op to squeeze out afk cloakers.
Stop whining and start thinking.
And what tools do you propose to counter this exaclty? Seeing as how every suggestion so far has been either a) wrong or b) bad -I'd love to here a real one from someone who seems so adamant about there even being one.
Just so you don't repeat one of the fail suggestions that have been made already and look like just another forum flamer that has no real input to any discussions:
1) Install a Cyno Jammer *These don't block covert ops cynos
2) Bring a defensive squad to said ratting operation *How much is enough? The defender has no way to gauge enemy strength. 4 PvP battleships might be scary.. then again if the hotdropper has 15 dudes waiting to drop in maybe not.
3) Guard the entrance to your system *so you want me to dedicate a gate camp on multiple gates 24/7 with the hopes of catching a cloaked ship.. Wow that sounds REALLY BORING not to mention I can count the number of times I've caught a cloaky ship upon jumping into a system before he cloaked on one finger.
4) Suck it up and stop being a carebear *Ummm derp? Not all of us can PLEX for PvP ships.
So, If you have any meaningful suggestions other than to tell me to "stop whining and adapt" to a situation that, to me, seems completely unadaptable, please feel free to post again. If not, stay the hell out of my thread.
P.S. Im not asking for a nerf, Im asking for more interaction between players. I've already stated that I would be completely fine with cloaking removing you from local as a cookie to the cloakers and what theyre trying to accomplish, although later posters said that would present problems with logoff cloakers. |
Plentath
Sudden Buggery
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 17:32:00 -
[184] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Plentath wrote:I live in a WH.
When I get the idea there is an AFK cloaker in system I take precautions. You can never be sure one way or the other whether you're going to get jumped or not.
I am yet to die to one.
Yet apparently, a guy AFK cloaking in nullsec is a cause for OMG LOCKDOWN ALL THE THINGS!! ZOMG!! OH NO!!
Pathetic. there's these things called "cynos," maybe you've heard of them?
I dunno. I heard an aligned ship can warp faster than the aggressor can decloak, drop cyno, get help and tackle a ship.
When I rat in nullsec there's usually 2-5 in local with me, none of them blue.
I really don't see why I can do this and other people cower at a name in local with no blue plus sign.
Is there a reason you're not cyno-jamming systems? The amount of ships you can get through from a covert cyno / BLOPS portal isn't impressive. |
Sid Hudgens
Totally not an NPC Corp
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 17:57:00 -
[185] - Quote
Nullbears need to HTFU. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
598
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 22:04:00 -
[186] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine. Close, but not quite. If you're an unknown in local, people assume you're a threat, regardless of whether you are one or notGǪ and thus we have the endless AFK cloaking whines. That's kind of my point: people assume a connection between the data and its meaning that isn't really there. Making the mechanics enforce a much sharper disconnect between the two might snap people out of that flawed perception. Quote:OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local. Nah, it's a more of a double-blind system. The comms system can't pick you up; you can't use the comms system. It comes with both benefits and detriments. I think the original suggestion (now lost in the depth of the forum archives) also suggested a spool-up time on cynos to make them mutually detrimental as well, since that's the thing people are really worried about. Quote:Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you. The importance really lies in hose five words: GÇ£if they're paying attentionGÇ¥. I have no problems with intel being used in various ways (and it being subverted) GÇö I have a problem with it being done automatically for you. At that point, it's no longer intel GÇö it's an automated alarm system. If that attacking cloaker fleet leaves a trail of bread-crumbs behind for the eagle-eyed to spot, then that's excellent! That means you both sides have to exercise some situational awareness and stealth to gain an advantage over the other side.
Having a hard time following you. *shrugs* Well just agree to disagree on this. But, I'll give the suggestion more thought, not that my opinion matters.
It's attractive to not be seen at all as a cloaky. On the other hand, noone should be seen in local automatically anyway. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Varesk
Mafia Redux Black Legion.
54
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 22:34:00 -
[187] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
TL;DR
WHHHAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAA A GUY THATS AFK AND CLOAKED IS STOPPING ME FROM RATTING.
hope that is close, didnt read OP. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 23:55:00 -
[188] - Quote
Djavue wrote:Literally the only people who complain about afk cloakers are botters in 0.0
now you know that's BS, there has been loads of threads about the problem. most of which people are pissed they can't find and kill said afk person who left his ship (in most cases a usless shite ship with no other modules fitted) floating in space. it's a tactic used during wars also. so it's not Literally only people who are botters in 0.0 |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 23:56:00 -
[189] - Quote
Varesk wrote:Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^ TL;DR WHHHAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAA A GUY THATS AFK AND CLOAKED IS STOPPING ME FROM RATTING. hope that is close, didnt read OP.
can't read more like, can i ask you a question man,, why respond to a thread you refuse to read or can't read ? |
snake pies
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 00:32:00 -
[190] - Quote
new inefficient combat probes to scan for cloaked ships, warping to it lands you 5km off
cloakers will mostly still get away by just being aligned and moving while afk cloaked, or to be even safer when actively moving in weird patterns through space
|
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Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 19:48:00 -
[191] - Quote
As an addendum, we have now had the same reds in both our home system and our neighbor for over 4 days. This has completely shut down all ISK making ventures in 2/3 of the systems our corp currently has access to... and there is not a godd*mn thing I can do about it other than b*tch on the forums. Is this a healthy mechanic for the game? That 1 player has the ability to sit with complete immunity in system for DAYS, and if at any time I decide to say f*ck it, Im running sites/mining etc in that system anyway, he can drop a covert cyno (which I cant see, and also cant block with cyno jammers), and move an unlimited number of hostiles 10km from my position in an instant? I think not. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
265
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 19:52:00 -
[192] - Quote
Yes it is a terrible mechanic and people have made some rather large constructive threads about it over the years CCP has NEVER asked for input about this mechanic and as such it will never get changed.
For good and bad we are stuck with it. End of story. |
Amon Kaates
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 21:53:00 -
[193] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:As an addendum, we have now had the same reds in both our home system and our neighbor for over 4 days. This has completely shut down all ISK making ventures in 2/3 of the systems our corp currently has access to... and there is not a godd*mn thing I can do about it other than b*tch on the forums. Is this a healthy mechanic for the game? That 1 player has the ability to sit with complete immunity in system for DAYS, and if at any time I decide to say f*ck it, Im running sites/mining etc in that system anyway, he can drop a covert cyno (which I cant see, and also cant block with cyno jammers), and move an unlimited number of hostiles 10km from my position in an instant? I think not.
You know, it's been a long time since I've done anything in low-sec, so I'll grant that I'm not entirely spun-up on the concerns of the nullspace community.
That being said, "back in my day", I rolled with a crew that always assumed a hostile force was on the other side of the gate. We always assumed that when we were out mining, complexing, or any other activity that you can't do while docked in a station, that we needed scouts and a small security team, even if that team's job was just to tie up the gankers and peel tacklers off. When cloakers were around, sure, we puckered up a little tighter, but we were always operating under the assumption that we'd come under attack at any time.
Maybe the expectations are different now, but in my opinion null-sec should never feel "safe" for operations. Ever. That's why I don't see AFK cloaking, or cloaking period, to be a problem.
As far as covert cynos go, I'm sure I'm not the only one to point this out, but how many ships are you really afraid of coming through? Are black ops drivers really that common that they can decimate what defense you can muster in your home system?
Sounds like you need to redesign your attitude on defense and alert posture, but again, that's just me and I haven't been in a lowsec corp in several years.
The anti-AFK cloakers are saying that CCP's been overlooking this issue for years. I didn't see this as a problem years ago, and I don't see it as one now. Seems like CCP and I are of a like mind on this.
Be glad they show up on local. I think I'd be a lot more paranoid if they didn't; then you'd really have to assume that someone could be parked cloaked within visual range of you at all times. You'd never be "safe". |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
410
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 22:27:00 -
[194] - Quote
YOU ALL GOT A BUFF TO SCANNING to hunt down the AFKers. There is no longer a limit on the amount of probes you can use, there is also no longer the ability to become unscannable.
What more do you want? EASY MODE?
They are AFK for christs sakes. |
Ian Isk
Sounds Legit
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 22:34:00 -
[195] - Quote
Amon Kaates wrote:[quote=Eso Es]in my opinion null-sec should never feel "safe" for operations. Ever. .
Except for cloakers, right? They should be completely safe, and literally impossible to get to in space, making it a no-risk activity.
Good job on being consistent. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
320
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 22:42:00 -
[196] - Quote
Cloaking in general needs an entire revamp. All ships shouldn't have the same ability to cloak without some sort of trade off. Apparently the mechanic was just a hack from when they added cloaking after you jump through a gate. They just gave us a button to turn that on or off. That's why the module has no cycle time and doesn't use cap. This is also why you can't probe them. What module in the game has this freedom?
The afk cloaking thing is annoying because there isn't anything you can do about it. And it's not if they are afk or not...they are there and they could just as easily be waiting to hot drop you. Several people do this. So you can spend all day trying to bait them, or do nothing and go elsewhere. But besides that, there isn't anything to do. That's why people find it so annoying - they can't take care of the threat in their system. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Bernie Nator
Talocan Hive Talocan United
281
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 22:48:00 -
[197] - Quote
Next you'll be telling me "REMOVE WORMHOLES FROM NULLSEC THEY MAKE LOCAL GO UP AND THERES BAD PEOPLE IN THERE". |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
410
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 22:49:00 -
[198] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Cloaking in general needs an entire revamp. All ships shouldn't have the same ability to cloak without some sort of trade off. Apparently the mechanic was just a hack from when they added cloaking after you jump through a gate. They just gave us a button to turn that on or off. That's why the module has no cycle time and doesn't use cap. This is also why you can't probe them. What module in the game has this freedom?
The afk cloaking thing is annoying because there isn't anything you can do about it. And it's not if they are afk or not...they are there and they could just as easily be waiting to hot drop you. Several people do this. So you can spend all day trying to bait them, or do nothing and go elsewhere. But besides that, there isn't anything to do. That's why people find it so annoying - they can't take care of the threat in their system.
They do have a trade off, you can't do anything while AFK, that sounds pretty limiting to me.
What system are you in? I can sit all day in it CLOAKED, but not AFK. will that make a difference to you? |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
349
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:04:00 -
[199] - Quote
ALL YOU NEED IS A TECH ii DESI THAT CAN PING A 30 KM RADIUS... EVERY THIRTY SECONDS...
BY PINGING A SHIP DOES NOT DECLOAK IT... WHAT PINGING A SHIP WILL DO IT HAVE IT SHOW UP ON OVERVIEW FOR 2 SECONDS... ENOUGH TIME TO TRY AND DECLOAK HIM...
ANY KIND OF NON COVERT OPS CLOAK SHOULD TAKE LIQUID OZONE TO OPERATE...
THE CYCLE TIME OF A TECH I CLOAK WILL BE 30 SECONDS AND TAKE 1 LO PER CYCLE
THE CYCLE TIME OF A TECH ii NON COVERT OPS CLOAK WILL BE 1:30 SECONDS AND TAKE 2 LO PER CYCLE...
P.S U LIKE CAPS LOCKS AS MUCH AS I DO... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:23:00 -
[200] - Quote
The null sec alliance I was in had this happen. It was one of the most annoying things ever since he was randomly active through the day. Would jump from one system, then back, etc, etc. I don't see it as a problem though.
As many people have said, local needs removed from null sec. Removing local would make null 100x more entertaining than it is now. |
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Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:24:00 -
[201] - Quote
Crying about cloaky ships is the exact same as crying about suicide ganking. |
Amon Kaates
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:28:00 -
[202] - Quote
Ian Isk wrote:Amon Kaates wrote:[quote=Eso Es]in my opinion null-sec should never feel "safe" for operations. Ever. . Except for cloakers, right? They should be completely safe, and literally impossible to get to in space, making it a no-risk activity. Good job on being consistent.
Thanks, I am being pretty consistent.
If you're running missions in low-sec, you're taking a risk. You shouldn't feel safe.
If you're mining in low-sec, you're taking a risk. You shouldn't feel safe.
If you're defending your sovereignty in a system you own, if you have assets out there for others to take, if you have any invested infrastructure in a lowsec system, if you are claiming an area and making money off of it, you are taking a risk. Isn't that the point? If you want to make that money, you have to take a risk?
How much money do AFK cloakers make?
Again, I'll grant that my own personal experience in low-sec is perhaps outdated, and perhaps the threat has fundamentally changed. But when it comes right down to it, I don't see the difference. AFK cloakers never impacted me, my corp, or how we worked in low-sec. We always assumed an attack would come from anywhere, at any time. That's just how it works.
I don't get threatened by people who aren't at their computers. |
Leisen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:31:00 -
[203] - Quote
Why is it terrible? Surely a pilot (and his crew?) could cloak up and take 5. For a day. Or a week. What does it matter? The real issue is local. |
Argaral
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:42:00 -
[204] - Quote
? if this has been suggested but with the new fueled modules, make cloaking fueled?
Long cycle time so you only get what? 2 hours out of it before resupply. Would eliminate a lot of afk cloakers, but would allow for genuine black ops gangs to maintain momentum as they are already setting up fuel networks for their cyno's. |
Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:52:00 -
[205] - Quote
Ian Isk wrote:Amon Kaates wrote:[quote=Eso Es]in my opinion null-sec should never feel "safe" for operations. Ever. . Except for cloakers, right? They should be completely safe, and literally impossible to get to in space, making it a no-risk activity. Good job on being consistent.
Well it sounds like OP is siting in his system for DAYS completely "save". The only thing he can't do is "save" mining/missions.
looks consistent to me |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
794
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 23:57:00 -
[206] - Quote
Vicky Somers wrote:Crying about cloaky ships is the exact same as crying about suicide ganking. No, cloaky whines are funnier.
At least the ones ganked lost something. |
Jiska Ensa
Unour Heavy Industries
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 00:35:00 -
[207] - Quote
Remove local. How many times do we have to say it. |
nate555
GODHC INTERSTELLAR FLEET Primal Force
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 00:38:00 -
[208] - Quote
If there is a afk cloaked you have pissed someone off. In that case **** them off more. Don't be a bear that doesn't want to fight. |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
310
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 00:39:00 -
[209] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^
or we could remove local, then you wouldn't know they were there ;P
... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
924
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 00:57:00 -
[210] - Quote
nate555 wrote:If there is a afk cloaked you have pissed someone off. In that case **** them off more. Don't be a bear that doesn't want to fight. Yeah afk cloakers really don't like to fight or do much of anything, really.
Funny how that works. There's one once cloaker been here for two weeks now. We're waiting for them to gank someone, but no dice. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
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nate555
GODHC INTERSTELLAR FLEET Primal Force
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 01:15:00 -
[211] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:nate555 wrote:If there is a afk cloaked you have pissed someone off. In that case **** them off more. Don't be a bear that doesn't want to fight. Yeah afk cloakers really don't like to fight or do much of anything, really. Funny how that works. There's one once cloaker been here for two weeks now. We're waiting for them to gank someone, but no dice. I mean the group resposible |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
924
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 01:17:00 -
[212] - Quote
nate555 wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:nate555 wrote:If there is a afk cloaked you have pissed someone off. In that case **** them off more. Don't be a bear that doesn't want to fight. Yeah afk cloakers really don't like to fight or do much of anything, really. Funny how that works. There's one once cloaker been here for two weeks now. We're waiting for them to gank someone, but no dice. I mean the group resposible Would love to fight an afk cloaker, but uh.
Bit hard to get at them... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eso Es
Li3's Electric Cucumber SpaceMonkey's Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 05:44:00 -
[213] - Quote
Seriously, Im getting trolled by my own alliance? Oh wait, Im part of the CFC now, nvm ^^
**Can we stop harping on the fact that I may not have properly named the title of this thread?**
Im sick of lame comments about how afk people cant blow you up. The guy has been in local for 4 days straight (almost 5 now), obviously he cant be at his computer all day everyday, but how am I to know when he is or when he isn't?
As I said in the opening post of this thread, I come from a WH corp, so I am more than comfortable with non-risk free ratting, but in a WH you can't get hotdropped and you have the ability to use dscan to detect incoming threats, as well as doing all the things mentioned in this thread such as having scouts posted at key locations etc. THERE IS NO WAY TO SCOUT/PREDICT/DEFEND a cov ops hotdrop. |
Argaral
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 05:55:00 -
[214] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Seriously, Im getting trolled by my own alliance? Oh wait, Im part of the CFC now, nvm ^^
**Can we stop harping on the fact that I may not have properly named the title of this thread?**
Im sick of lame comments about how afk people cant blow you up. The guy has been in local for 4 days straight (almost 5 now), obviously he cant be at his computer all day everyday, but how am I to know when he is or when he isn't?
As I said in the opening post of this thread, I come from a WH corp, so I am more than comfortable with non-risk free ratting, but in a WH you can't get hotdropped and you have the ability to use dscan to detect incoming threats, as well as doing all the things mentioned in this thread such as having scouts posted at key locations etc. THERE IS NO WAY TO SCOUT/PREDICT/DEFEND a cov ops hotdrop.
Actually there is, I've done it to Sniggewaffe previously. When you rat, keep a standing fleet. They may pop your ship, but believe me, if you're ratting in a hac or battleship, they won't pop it before other people in system land on grid. Those SB's pop very quickly when they can't cloak. If you're seriously whinging about a larger gang(more then 5) then sorry, they blobbed you and your alliance could not retaliate because of your own stupidity. I believe Nulli is experiencing this at the moment. If you win the isk war enough, they will move onto softer targets.
I'm all for a solution to AFK cloakers; as my fuel suggestion above. But jesus christ, harden the **** up. They're cloakers, they often fit **** tank, if they lose the element of surprise and you have even a friend or two, they're ****** if they don't gtfo. You make it out like you're being hot dropped by the old tracking titans. |
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