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Dawts
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.29 21:12:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Dawts on 29/07/2009 21:17:12 Edited by: Dawts on 29/07/2009 21:15:33
Originally by: Sader Rykane Your point? Where did I say 1 month and two weeks of purely LEARNING skills?
If you backpedal too fast you're going to step on your toes.
Edit: before you even ask what I'm talking about.
Originally by: Sader Rykane Cybernetics +2 Implants all types Every single learning book All Int / Memory Based support skills. (Engeneering, Electronic, Mechanic, Hull or Shield skills)
and for the next 1 month and 2 weeks I told them to train all these skills to around IV and don't undock.
Is taken from your OP. e2: snype.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.29 23:12:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 29/07/2009 23:14:12
Originally by: Dawts Edited by: Dawts on 29/07/2009 21:17:12 Edited by: Dawts on 29/07/2009 21:15:33
Originally by: Sader Rykane Your point? Where did I say 1 month and two weeks of purely LEARNING skills?
If you backpedal too fast you're going to step on your toes.
Edit: before you even ask what I'm talking about.
Originally by: Sader Rykane Cybernetics +2 Implants all types Every single learning book All Int / Memory Based support skills. (Engeneering, Electronic, Mechanic, Hull or Shield skills)
and for the next 1 month and 2 weeks I told them to train all these skills to around IV and don't undock.
Is taken from your OP. e2: snype.
I'm talking about skills falling under the "LEARNING" tree, how did you miss that?
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Maximize Efficiency, Minimizing Waste.
I have no idea what you mean with that last sentence.
Also, learning skills to 4/4 take less than a week or two'ish.
Taken from the post previous the the one you quoted.
Reading comprehension is key, put a little more practice in before you attempt to be clever.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.07.30 00:34:00 -
[213]
I can't believe I haven't posted in this thread yet. I'm sure this has been covered before, but OP is full of crap.
I've made my first only pvp kills in my first three weeks in the game. That was while training learning/support skills - I've only flown a Rifter for the first few months of playing and I had a blast.
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Evthron Macyntire
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Posted - 2009.07.30 05:09:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Evthron Macyntire on 30/07/2009 05:10:00 Get your friends in cheap frigs and you can sit in a larger more dangerous ship. Go to lowsec and have him attack you, tell him to ask for help in local, claiming you can't hit him, but he can't kill you solo.
1. Wait for people to show up 2. ???? 3. Profit!
Yes it does work. Yes you won't see unarmed untanked golems or w/e warping in to die, mostly frigs and cruisers. A kill is a kill. A newbie will be happy to see someone die at his hands, maybe even ransom.
Although, a great way to turn people off a game is to tell them not to play it for 6 weeks. But I guess it is working for you, 3 out of 7? Yea... ------------------------------ Sigs like this. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 10:14:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
*dodge
You move goalposts so fast you should set up a company to buil football fields.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 11:07:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sader Rykane
*dodge
You move goalposts so fast you should set up a company to buil football fields.
Dodge? I haven't changed positions at all and that's evidenced by every single post I've made.
That being said, I did embrace one person who had a good idea about running two trial accounts, one that trains and one that is used to gain isk etc. |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 11:10:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Evthron Macyntire Edited by: Evthron Macyntire on 30/07/2009 05:10:00 Get your friends in cheap frigs and you can sit in a larger more dangerous ship. Go to lowsec and have him attack you, tell him to ask for help in local, claiming you can't hit him, but he can't kill you solo.
1. Wait for people to show up 2. ???? 3. Profit!
Yes it does work. Yes you won't see unarmed untanked golems or w/e warping in to die, mostly frigs and cruisers. A kill is a kill. A newbie will be happy to see someone die at his hands, maybe even ransom.
Although, a great way to turn people off a game is to tell them not to play it for 6 weeks. But I guess it is working for you, 3 out of 7? Yea...
7 Accounts were training.
4 out of 7 have finished the month and two weeks training.
3 out of those 4 have one year subscriptions. The 4th pays monthly.
The final 3 out of 7 are still training. |
Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.07.30 11:55:00 -
[218]
I feel neglected Both Malcanis and Evthron got a reply but I got ignored
Or are you just trying to ignore any disconfirming comments?
Quote: I've made my first only pvp kills in my first three weeks in the game. That was while training learning/support skills - I've only flown a Rifter for the first few months of playing and I had a blast.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:41:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Estel Arador I feel neglected Both Malcanis and Evthron got a reply but I got ignored
Or are you just trying to ignore any disconfirming comments?
Quote: I've made my first only pvp kills in my first three weeks in the game. That was while training learning/support skills - I've only flown a Rifter for the first few months of playing and I had a blast.
I didn't reply simply because its not something that can be disputed. What can I say? No you're a liar?
Fact is all the success stories posted really don't change my post because the people who would be posting stories about how Eve DIDNT work out for them in the beginning are not here, because they QUIT.
Basicly when it comes down to it, the argument for playing Eve is if they cant have fun in the first couple weeks then they need to just quit.
I am trying, and succeeding btw, to prevent this at all costs because I do not want anymore people I know to quit. All I'm highlighting is that the reason I have to go to this extent is the flawed introduction system.
Simply put, their obviously going to be success stories or you people wouldn't be hear to post them, that doesn't mean the system is good.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.07.30 15:08:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Sader Rykane I didn't reply simply because its not something that can be disputed. What can I say? No you're a liar?
You could say "I was wrong when I said this:
Originally by: Sader Rykane I think its sad that whenever I invite a friend to play Eve I have to explain to them that the game is absolutely terribly boring for the first 2 months. That you will effectively do nothing, make zero isk and you wont be able to do much of anything.
"
Originally by: Sader Rykane Fact is all the success stories posted really don't change my post because the people who would be posting stories about how Eve DIDNT work out for them in the beginning are not here, because they QUIT.
Same applies to the people who got bored and quit because they were spending their first couple of months sitting docked at a station.
Originally by: Sader Rykane Basicly when it comes down to it, the argument for playing Eve is if they cant have fun in the first couple weeks then they need to just quit.
You shouldn't do anything you don't enjoy doing.
Originally by: Sader Rykane All I'm highlighting is that the reason I have to go to this extent is the flawed introduction system.
Some people think this "flawed introduction system" is great, and wouldn't be playing EVE if it had any other system.
Originally by: Sader Rykane Simply put, their [sic]obviously going to be success stories or you people wouldn't be hear [sic] to post them, that doesn't mean the system is good.
And that you don't like the system does not mean it is flawed.
You're discounting all "success stories" because people who have quit aren't posting. That's a fallacy. Of course the people who have quit aren't posting, but that doesn't mean that the comments from those people who still play aren't valid. This appeal to some 'silent majority' is nonsense, since noone (that includes you) knows exactly how large that group would be. How do you distinguish between the silent people who tried the game and just didn't like it from the silent people who tried the game, kinda liked it, but quit because of the 'learning grind'?
Then there's the inconvenient fact (for you) that for six years now, EVE has been gaining players at a higher rate than it's been losing them.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:25:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Sader Rykane I didn't reply simply because its not something that can be disputed. What can I say? No you're a liar?
You could say "I was wrong when I said this:
Originally by: Sader Rykane I think its sad that whenever I invite a friend to play Eve I have to explain to them that the game is absolutely terribly boring for the first 2 months. That you will effectively do nothing, make zero isk and you wont be able to do much of anything.
It's basicly your opinion vs mine in this regard so I'm not going to argue this point.
Quote:
Same applies to the people who got bored and quit because they were spending their first couple of months sitting docked at a station.
None of them have quit, this is a fact. You people say they are going to quit, none of them have so why do you keep saying it?
It is your OPINION that this will force them to quit. It is MY opinion that this is what needs to be done to get them to stay. Currently I am right because they are all still here, in the future that may change but CURRENTLY all the players I have invited since then have not quit.
In the past ALL players I invited, as well as ALL the players I started with a few years ago have quit. I did not "help" any of these players in the way I've helped this new group.
Please dispute the facts:
The group of 5 or so friends I started eve with: I did not help these people as I helped this newer group (I didn't have any isk back then).
Result: QUIT
All the players I invited (back in january / feb) QUIT: I did not give them more than 10-15 mil isk and let them loose in all their newbie gloory to find their way in Eve providing info ever now and then:
Result: QUIT
Group of 7 players I've been speed training since March with the system outline in this thread:
Result: NONE have quit.
Quote:
You shouldn't do anything you don't enjoy doing.
Sorry, thats not an option. I'll do everything in my power to make the Eve learning curve as smooth as possible for my friends if it keeps them playing for years to come.
Quote:
Some people think this "flawed introduction system" is great, and wouldn't be playing EVE if it had any other system.
Ok.
Quote:
And that you don't like the system does not mean it is flawed.
We could go back and forth on this point forever.
Quote:
You're discounting all "success stories" because people who have quit aren't posting. That's a fallacy. Of course the people who have quit aren't posting, but that doesn't mean that the comments from those people who still play aren't valid. This appeal to some 'silent majority' is nonsense, since noone (that includes you) knows exactly how large that group would be.
My silent majority are the group of people I started the game with and the two players I invited in January and Febuary.
Quote: Then there's the inconvenient fact (for you) that for six years now, EVE has been gaining players at a higher rate than it's been losing them.
It's always been gaining players at a higher rate then its losing them. Once again, that doesn't mean the system is perfect.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 18:45:00 -
[222]
This guy is worse than Pottsey.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 19:13:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Malcanis This guy is worse than Pottsey.
I've countered every point you've made and all you've done is either ignore my points or toss insults.
Why bother posting if you're not even trying to discuss anything?
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Juric Vecker
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Posted - 2009.07.30 19:30:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Juric Vecker on 30/07/2009 19:31:14 Those players that quit but you invited - were they the same 5 people that are currently playing?
If so, your points can be argued, if not they cant. How can we argue why one of your friends (apple) quit and the other (orange) still plays.
Its apple and oranges
Eve online is a sandbox game, do whatever you want to do. If you want to sit in the station and skill up for a month, go ahead. if you dont, there is plenty of things you can do.
Both sides can agree to that statement. No side is right, but then again, no side is wrong.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 20:27:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Sader Rykane Edited by: Sader Rykane on 30/07/2009 19:24:17 Edited by: Sader Rykane on 30/07/2009 19:21:42
Originally by: Malcanis This guy is worse than Pottsey.
I've countered every point you've made and all you've done is... ignore my points
lol
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.07.30 21:28:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 30/07/2009 21:28:18 Thank you Sader Rykane for your point-by-point reply to my post.
I'm a bit disappointed though that you won't defend your claim that new players can't accomplish anything in the first few months. You now say that that claim, which forms the basis for your recommendations to CCP, doesn't need to be backed up because it is 'your opinion against mine'. Certainly if you're suggesting major changes to the New Player Experience (NPE) you have something to back it up?
Yes, yes, I know. You have your friends. That's a very small sample size though and you ignore the fact that CCP has completely reworked the NPE between the first two groups which quit and the third group which is still playing. Might that have had any effect?
I'm also disappointed that your point-by-point reply skipped a major point I made (or at least tried to make). How do you distinguish between the people who tried the game and just didn't like it from the people who tried the game, kinda liked it, but quit because of the 'learning grind'?
FREE! jumpclone service: Forum thread|Podlog |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 22:46:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Juric Vecker Edited by: Juric Vecker on 30/07/2009 19:31:14 Those players that quit but you invited - were they the same 5 people that are currently playing?
If so, your points can be argued, if not they cant. How can we argue why one of your friends (apple) quit and the other (orange) still plays.
Its apple and oranges
Eve online is a sandbox game, do whatever you want to do. If you want to sit in the station and skill up for a month, go ahead. if you dont, there is plenty of things you can do.
Both sides can agree to that statement. No side is right, but then again, no side is wrong.
Quote: Please dispute the facts:
The group of 5 or so friends I started eve with: I did not help these people as I helped this newer group (I didn't have any isk back then).
Result: QUIT
All the players I invited (back in january / feb) QUIT: I did not give them more than 10-15 mil isk and let them loose in all their newbie gloory to find their way in Eve providing info ever now and then:
Result: QUIT
Group of 7 players I've been speed training since March with the system outline in this thread:
Result: NONE have quit.
From a previous post.
Click for gallery! |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 22:48:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sader Rykane Edited by: Sader Rykane on 30/07/2009 19:24:17 Edited by: Sader Rykane on 30/07/2009 19:21:42
Originally by: Malcanis This guy is worse than Pottsey.
I've countered every point you've made and all you've done is... ignore my points
I got nothin.
Click for gallery! |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:01:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 30/07/2009 23:02:21
Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 30/07/2009 21:28:18 Thank you Sader Rykane for your point-by-point reply to my post.
I'm a bit disappointed though that you won't defend your claim that new players can't accomplish anything in the first few months. You now say that that claim, which forms the basis for your recommendations to CCP, doesn't need to be backed up because it is 'your opinion against mine'. Certainly if you're suggesting major changes to the New Player Experience (NPE) you have something to back it up?
The NPE has been great for me, without it I wouldn't be able to pull off the accelerated training that I've been using on these guys. The ability to train at as much as 4400 SP/hour is wonderful for finishing off those learning skills and support skills. Not to mention the payoff for the learning skills is all the sooner because of this.
This is a great first step in my eyes, but without out getting more detailed: I'de like to see more.
However, I just realized that this actually brings up another valid counterpoint which I would put to myself. Maybe it's the NPE, and not just the training regimen I'm putting these guys through thats helping to retain this current group of players.
To that: I really have no answer.
Quote:
Yes, yes, I know. You have your friends. That's a very small sample size though and you ignore the fact that CCP has completely reworked the NPE between the first two groups which quit and the third group which is still playing. Might that have had any effect?
Bwhahaha I didn't even read this before typing what I wrote up there. And you know what? You could be right.
Quote:
I'm also disappointed that your point-by-point reply skipped a major point I made (or at least tried to make). How do you distinguish between the people who tried the game and just didn't like it from the people who tried the game, kinda liked it, but quit because of the 'learning grind'?
It's really not possible for me to know without looking at some sort of "exit poll" data. I think these MMO's tend to have a "why are you canceling?" question but I'm pretty sure trial accounts dont get asked those questions when they lapse.
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Juric Vecker
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:44:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Juric Vecker Edited by: Juric Vecker on 30/07/2009 19:31:14 Those players that quit but you invited - were they the same 5 people that are currently playing?
If so, your points can be argued, if not they cant. How can we argue why one of your friends (apple) quit and the other (orange) still plays.
Its apple and oranges
Eve online is a sandbox game, do whatever you want to do. If you want to sit in the station and skill up for a month, go ahead. if you dont, there is plenty of things you can do.
Both sides can agree to that statement. No side is right, but then again, no side is wrong.
Quote: Please dispute the facts:
The group of 5 or so friends I started eve with: I did not help these people as I helped this newer group (I didn't have any isk back then).
Result: QUIT
All the players I invited (back in january / feb) QUIT: I did not give them more than 10-15 mil isk and let them loose in all their newbie gloory to find their way in Eve providing info ever now and then:
Result: QUIT
Group of 7 players I've been speed training since March with the system outline in this thread:
Result: NONE have quit.
From a previous post.
This doesnt answer my question. You didnt say different or similar people. Your one friend isnt the same. One could have quit for RL issues, one could have quit because he was bored in station. this goes on and on and on. What I am trying to say is that you can not assume your 'friends' all left for the same reason. Even if you tell me that it was the same reason, I would argue that since its different people, you dont know for sure.
Its a Catch 22. You cant prove they quit for the same reason. I cant prove they didnt.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.31 01:03:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Juric Vecker
This doesnt answer my question. You didnt say different or similar people. Your one friend isnt the same. One could have quit for RL issues, one could have quit because he was bored in station. this goes on and on and on. What I am trying to say is that you can not assume your 'friends' all left for the same reason. Even if you tell me that it was the same reason, I would argue that since its different people, you dont know for sure.
Its a Catch 22. You cant prove they quit for the same reason. I cant prove they didnt.
Different people.
Why would I sit here and argue hypothetical with you? They quit because the game bored them.
Not sure what would be the purpose of bringing them up if I didn't know why they quit, I mean thats the basis for my entire thread. No I can't "Prove" to you 100% why they quit, some things you just gotta take peoples word for.
Hell, you can't prove to me that we're all not just figments of my overactive imagination, doesn't mean we need to toss out all the laws in the world.
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Cyprus Black
Caldari 4 wing Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.07.31 04:18:00 -
[232]
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 31/07/2009 04:24:21 I didn't read much of this thread because of all the trolling, but I've got to agree with the OP. It does take far too long for new players to get into the game. Even longer without the hand holding.
This is CCPs major failing. Making the game so inhospitable for new players. I'll admit that I did not play EvE for my first months subscription either. I was bored as hell and always on the losing end of PvP situations. All I did was log in, start the next skill, and log out.
This was back when new characters started with 800,000 SP. I was horrified to learn they nerfed starting SP by 94% with the Apocrypha patch. It seems so counter intuitive for attracting new players/customers.
It doesn't really make much sense business wise. New players are new customers. More customers = more money. Last I checked CCP is in the business of making money, but their business model stinks. Why would anyone give their new customers such a hard time? ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 06:00:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Cyprus Black Edited by: Cyprus Black on 31/07/2009 04:24:21 I didn't read much of this thread because of all the trolling, but I've got to agree with the OP. It does take far too long for new players to get into the game. Even longer without the hand holding.
This is CCPs major failing. Making the game so inhospitable for new players. I'll admit that I did not play EvE for my first months subscription either. I was bored as hell and always on the losing end of PvP situations. All I did was log in, start the next skill, and log out.
This was back when new characters started with 800,000 SP. I was horrified to learn they nerfed starting SP by 94% with the Apocrypha patch. It seems so counter intuitive for attracting new players/customers.
It doesn't really make much sense business wise. New players are new customers. More customers = more money. Last I checked CCP is in the business of making money, but their business model stinks. Why would anyone give their new customers such a hard time?
You, like the OP, are making assertions which are contradicted by the observed facts:
"It does take far too long for new players to get into the game."
There is plenty of testimonial evidence by new and old players that you can 'get started' almost immediately, if you want to. The game doesn't force you to get started though. People come to EvE from other games where getting to max level is basically some kind of extended tutorial and the "real game" doesn't start until you hit level cap, and they assume that EvE somehow works the same way. For those people, yes "It does take far too long for new players to get into the game." Fortunately, even for them there is an answer.
"Last I checked CCP is in the business of making money, but their business model stinks."
Right, 5 years of constant expansion of subscriber numbers. Terrible business plan. Check
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 06:05:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Sader Rykane I have been proven wrong about my initial thesis so many times it's starting to get pathetic, so I'll misquote people now in the hope of somehow scoring a point against someone who doesn't really care about me, but just wants to stop me from misleading other players in to having less fun in the first few weeks of the game than they otherwise could. Also I cant seem to make a tasty salsa, what the hell am I doing wrong?
That's OK man, we all have our faults. It took me a while to get my salsa tasting good too. Try toasting a pinch of cumin seeds and mixing them in to the salsa a few minutes before you serve. It adds aroma and complexity to the chili heat. Oh yeah and dont skimp on the fresh coriander/cilantro.
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Lilith Krell
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Posted - 2009.07.31 09:04:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Lilith Krell on 31/07/2009 09:04:36
Originally by: Malcanis This guy is worse than Pottsey.
Agreed - it's like talking to a wall...
To the OP, why bother starting a 'disscussion' thread if all you are going to do is stand blindly by your own opinion and ignore the weight of evidence against you? If you are totally convinced that you are right and everyone who says otherwise is wrong - why bother?
What do you hope to gain? Do you really beleive that you are going to change peoples opinions on this subject when their OWN EXPERIENCE tells them differently? You can go round and around in circles as much as you like anylysing every word people post and countering it within the boundries of your argument and/or shift the boundries to suit your own opinion whilst silently discounting the dozens and dozens of people providing conflicting opinions.
Are you really so arrogant that you won't admit that on some level, in some way, there is the chance you could be going about this all wrong? That by hand holding your friends and simply giving them everything they need for the first few months that you are simply denying them part of the experience?
Maybe, just maybe, if they are of the right mind to play EVE in the first place, they wouldn't quit when they realise the steep learning curve required to play the game? If they are not of the right mind then no amount of 'doing it all for them' is going to make them stay...
Like I have said, and many many others, I believe that what you are doing, whilst probably driven by good intentions, is detrimental to you friends enjoyment of the game - it's like giving them a crossword with the first 10 clues filled in for them...fun? IMO, no.
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Suiki Brindle
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Posted - 2009.07.31 09:55:00 -
[236]
Abortions yes or no?
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.31 11:27:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Malcanis That's OK man, we all have our faults. It took me a while to get my salsa tasting good too. Try toasting a pinch of cumin seeds and mixing them in to the salsa a few minutes before you serve. It adds aroma and complexity to the chili heat. Oh yeah and dont skimp on the fresh coriander/cilantro.
As I said before, if all you're here for is to try to look clever and not even bother to answer or counter a single one of my arguments without a sarcastic quip. Why waste your time posting?
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.31 11:39:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 31/07/2009 11:41:33
Originally by: Lilith Krell Edited by: Lilith Krell on 31/07/2009 10:21:33
Originally by: Malcanis This guy is worse than Pottsey.
Agreed - it's like talking to a wall...
To the OP, why bother starting a 'disscussion' thread if all you are going to do is stand blindly by your own opinion and ignore the weight of evidence against you? If you are totally convinced that you are right and everyone who says otherwise is wrong - why bother?
I'll pose you the same question: If you think my position is set in stone, than why bother giving me your opinion?
Simply, put just because I don't change my decision after the first reply doesn't mean my opinion is set in stone. How many arguments have you been a part of that ended with complete black and white answers?
Quote:
What do you hope to gain? Do you really beleive that you are going to change peoples opinions on this subject when their OWN EXPERIENCE tells them differently? You can go round and around in circles as much as you like anylysing every word people post and countering it within the boundries of your argument and/or shift the boundries to suit your own opinion whilst silently discounting the dozens and dozens of people providing conflicting opinions.
Find these instances within this thread and quote them for me, both the argument and rebuttal. Show me how "unreasonable" I'm being.
Quote:
Are you really so arrogant that you won't admit that on some level, in some way, there is the chance you could be going about this all wrong?
Read my response to Estel on this very page of the thread.
Quote: That by holding your friend's hands and simply giving them everything they need for the first few months that you are simply denying them part of the experience?
Read my response to Estel and respond to the portion about the two player groups. I pose the question to you as well, if doing it "your way" failed in the past, why should I continue you do it?
Quote:
Maybe, just maybe, if they are of the right mind to play EVE in the first place, they wouldn't quit when they realize the steep learning curve required to play the game? If they are not of the right mind then no amount of 'doing it all for them' is going to make them stay...
In your opinion, however according to what I've seen: It's working.
Quote:
Like I have said, and many many others, I believe that what you are doing, whilst probably driven by good intentions, is detrimental to you friends enjoyment of the game - it's like giving them a crossword with the first 10 clues filled in for them...fun? IMO, no.
My friends (the ones who are playing) seem to be enjoying the game just fine.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.31 11:41:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Suiki Brindle Abortions yes or no?
Pro-Choice.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 11:49:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Malcanis That's OK man, we all have our faults. It took me a while to get my salsa tasting good too. Try toasting a pinch of cumin seeds and mixing them in to the salsa a few minutes before you serve. It adds aroma and complexity to the chili heat. Oh yeah and dont skimp on the fresh coriander/cilantro.
As I said before, if all you're here for is to try to look clever and not even bother to answer or counter a single one of my arguments without a sarcastic quip. Why waste your time posting?
I wasted my time in all my other posts, since you're not interested in a view that opposes your own. You just dismiss or ignore any opposing viewpoints and facts, or change the terms so you can evade them. You've been presented with plenty of evidence that your original statement, that it is not possible for a new player to do anything worthwhile for the first 6 weeks, is flat out incorrect. It is, as we have seen repeatedly and frequently shown in this thread, perfectly possible. All that is necessary for a new player to start having fantastic fun in EvE from the first day onwards... is to not treat it like other MMOs, is to not obsess over "min-maxing" a meaningless stat like Total SP, is to not, in short, follow your advice. All they have to do is play the game. Note that at no point has anyone claimed that it's impossbile for a new player to fail do anything fun or useful in those 6 weeks, only that to so fail is their choice. Or a choice that others have foolishly or maliciously advised because it means that they'll have a percent or two less SP - as if that truly matters more than actually enjoying the game.
So I thought maybe we could talk about salsa instead.
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