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Shanija
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Posted - 2009.07.05 11:57:00 -
[91]
Hi InAkTiV! I definitely agree that it's your prerogative whether you use this tactic or not for as long as CCP says it's not an exploit. Personally, I don't think that it's good to use it because I think it violates the spirit of the faction war mechanics and can lead to people getting unhappy and leaving FW. I still call on CCP to publicly declare this an exploit and prevent people doing it in future, then change the mechanics so that it's impossible to.
& obviously, as I am sure you are aware there is a big difference between five ships camping a gate with faction navy DPS and double webs on each of them and two logistics alts at a safe mindlessly tanking the navy. Otherwise you wouldn't do what you're doing, right?
Originally by: Nocts How difficult is it to solo kill the Navy Ships? Do they drop tags?
I'm not sure - sorry!
Originally by: benitez so u are unable to take aggro from 1 char to another.which would be strange as every other mmo works this way.
Hi! Thank-you for your response. Aggro in EVE in general does not work this way. I don't know of any other situation where NPC ships will follow your ship through warp. In most of EVE, NPC ships very rarely detarget the ship they initially have targeted, and do not in general follow aggro rules like most MMOs have.
The trick involved here is that the navy spawns will warp after your ships if you move them away, but seem to hang around where they are as long as they have a hostile target to shoot. In this case, that lets you move the ships to a safe spot to keep your main camp clear.
I am also a little confused as to why you think EVE should be like every other MMO in the first place, but then say that I'm trying to make EVE like WoW and that's bad. That seems a little contradictory!
Originally by: Lt Mooncat fw is just a place for new players to lose their ships before quitting. It is working as intended.
haha
Originally by: Furb Killer The difference would be that all people on that gate would then have a navy spawn attacking them, instead of two invulnerable logistics somewhere in a deep safe spot.
Yes, pretty much. If that's not enough, then it should be fine for CCP to ban The Non-Exploit, right? Then instead we could be having a conversation about how the FW navy needs a buff instead of one about safespot ECCM logistics ship tactics.
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InAkTiV
Caldari Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:15:00 -
[92]
I am sorry, i just don't see the problem in you can get the npc to attack only one guy, if you make a tanker for it..
I mean it is the same as you do in a mission, you want to get the npc's to aggro your tanker, and to be honest, I see eve as a very team oriented game, and the people who have the means to think about setups, setting up the perfect team, then why should they not have an advantage ??
But it is a matter of opinion, and "your" FW is maybe not "My" idea of FW..
To me this looks more like a cry out, as some people don't know how to counter it, and you will have to put in some time to counter it, or think of setups. Yes true noobs or carebears can join FW, and true maybe some will leave because they think it is to hard, but then maybe they should not join FW ?? Or they should join FW when they want to pvp, and jump out when they wanna just be safe and do missions or mine..
And that is MY opinion
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:21:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 05/07/2009 12:22:30
Quote: Or they should join FW when they want to pvp, and jump out when they wanna just be safe and do missions or mine..
So this together with using alts is what you think FW should promote? FW is pvp with a low entrance barrier. So many targets, but also space protected at least partly by npcs. And all npcs being somewhere in a deep safe doing random stuff isnt what i call protection. (And NO i dont want it risk free).
Quote: I see eve as a very team oriented game, and the people who have the means to think about setups, setting up the perfect team, then why should they not have an advantage ??
Serious every trained monkey can copy strategies and setups from forums. And the smarter trained monkeys can also find out how to setup two logistics ships to tank npcs.
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X Gallentius
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:26:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Shanija
I don't think it is or ever has been "easily countered,"....
Quit FW and then run your missions and/or go buy and sell stuff at market hub. Then come back when you're done.
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InAkTiV
Caldari Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:31:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 05/07/2009 12:22:30
Quote: Or they should join FW when they want to pvp, and jump out when they wanna just be safe and do missions or mine..
So this together with using alts is what you think FW should promote? FW is pvp with a low entrance barrier. So many targets, but also space protected at least partly by npcs. And all npcs being somewhere in a deep safe doing random stuff isnt what i call protection. (And NO i dont want it risk free).
Quote: I see eve as a very team oriented game, and the people who have the means to think about setups, setting up the perfect team, then why should they not have an advantage ??
Serious every trained monkey can copy strategies and setups from forums. And the smarter trained monkeys can also find out how to setup two logistics ships to tank npcs.
Well then i think you should do it, if you think it is that easy mate And i think you should train your monkey then, so you can counter the setup, and stop whining about it on the forum. Or simply just stay out of 0,5 systmes if you don't have an idea to how to counter it..
And you can promote whatever you want, you are not protected!!! FW Police are a helping hand, that is all... |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:39:00 -
[96]
So if they are a helping hand, how about making them actually help? And no keeping 2 logistics (or in 0.5/0.6/maybe also higher one passive tanked drake/nighthawk/vulture) busy is not what i call helping.
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InAkTiV
Caldari Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:51:00 -
[97]
Ok, do me a favor, set up a drake, go into 0,6 space. and try and tank 7 FW police spawns mate.
Let me know how it goes |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:53:00 -
[98]
There you probably need nighthawk, pretty sure in 0.5 drake will do.
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Shanija
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Posted - 2009.07.05 12:58:00 -
[99]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Shanija
I don't think it is or ever has been "easily countered,"....
Quit FW and then run your missions and/or go buy and sell stuff at market hub. Then come back when you're done.
My comment was referring to the FW navy.
Either way, leaving FW every time anyone in your corp wants to do anything other than FW is not practical. Alts should also not be required to enjoy the game.
I'd like to ask you to please stop trying to derail the thread, because I don't think you're offering these suggestions in good faith.
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X Gallentius
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:26:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Shanija My comment was referring to the FW navy.
Your comments have been about the FW Navy not adequately protecting you to your standards. If you or your corp is getting ganked while doing non-FW stuff then it is only prudent to quit FW while doing them. Most good corps do exactly that.
Problem solved - and easily done.
BTW, is this the only restriction placed on FW versus any other war dec?
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Shanija
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Posted - 2009.07.05 14:24:00 -
[101]
Hi X Gallentius. I'm just posting to say that I'm not going to respond to your post. As I requested in my last post, please stop trying to derail the thread.
Thank-you!
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.07.05 14:27:00 -
[102]
He isnt de-railing. What he is saying is directly relevant to the topic.
You are making a non-existent issue out of game mechanics to further you own agenda- you dont want to be ganked.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:00:00 -
[103]
Originally by: RedSplat He isnt de-railing. What he is saying is directly relevant to the topic.
You are making a non-existent issue out of game mechanics to further you own agenda- you dont want to be ganked.
This.
Also this thread is beyond silly, with 2 vocal whiners trying to change the way the game works to their liking. Most like it just the way it is... Also, these kinds of feature/ change requests actually have their own forum, use it. --- WOLFY is recruiting!
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Shanija
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:14:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Shanija on 05/07/2009 15:18:00
Originally by: RedSplat You are making a non-existent issue out of game mechanics to further you own agenda- you dont want to be ganked.
Hello again, welcome back!
My agenda is making FW enjoyable for everyone - well, except for people who want to camp in highsec ganking unsuspecting enemy targets. Those people will just have to go back to camping in lowsec ganking unsuspecting enemy targets.
Obviously, I do not want to be ganked. That's not my motive behind saying this exploit should be stopped, though. My motive is that I think it's bad for faction warfare and against the spirit of the mechanics.
Faction warfare is meant to be faction warfare, not gatecamps in highsec, and the exploit is an exploit by any meaningful sense of the term, unless you seriously want to argue the devs intended you to park two ECCM-fitted alt Guardians at a safespot to almost entirely disable the faction navy.
ETA:
Quote: This.
Also this thread is beyond silly, with 2 vocal whiners trying to change the way the game works to their liking. Most like it just the way it is... Also, these kinds of feature/ change requests actually have their own forum, use it.
I'm not going to be responding to any more posts in this vein. If the thread upsets you to the extent that you find yourself stooping to personal attacks, please don't read it.
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Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:25:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Shanija
Faction warfare is meant to be faction warfare, not gatecamps in highsec, and the exploit is an exploit by any meaningful sense of the term, unless you seriously want to argue the devs intended you to park two ECCM-fitted alt Guardians at a safespot to almost entirely disable the faction navy.
You know what? By not making the navy more powerful than they currently are, I'm pretty sure the devs actually *had* something like this in the mind from the get-go... Shocking, ainnit?
Quote:
I'm not going to be responding to any more posts in this vein. If the thread upsets you to the extent that you find yourself stooping to personal attacks, please don't read it.
Sorry, you got to stop posting in it then. I find these "whine"/ "nerf" threads extremely dangerous to the well-being of the game I love... Thus I cannot just sit in the sidelines and let you continue this folly without opposition. --- WOLFY is recruiting!
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Tosi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:02:00 -
[106]
I WANT MY AUTOPILOT BACK --- BM facts. -Bad Messenger doesn't actually write on forums, the words assemble themselves out of fear. -When God said "Let there be light" Bad Messenger said "Say please."
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Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:50:00 -
[107]
NERF RR GANGS --- WOLFY is recruiting!
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:20:00 -
[108]
No one is forcing you to stay in 0.5
:christ:
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:45:00 -
[109]
Quote: You know what? By not making the navy more powerful than they currently are, I'm pretty sure the devs actually *had* something like this in the mind from the get-go... Shocking, ainnit?
And obviously devs also planned to make large artillery pointless.
The difference between FW and normal wardec is that in FW the high secs are kinda protected. You want to remove that protection, so why not just do normal wardecs and leave FW. Then we can have FW where npcs actually do something usefull
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Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:48:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: You know what? By not making the navy more powerful than they currently are, I'm pretty sure the devs actually *had* something like this in the mind from the get-go... Shocking, ainnit?
And obviously devs also planned to make large artillery pointless.
The difference between FW and normal wardec is that in FW the high secs are kinda protected. You want to remove that protection, so why not just do normal wardecs and leave FW. Then we can have FW where npcs actually do something usefull
I don't want to remove anything. You are whining to remove the war completely from hisec. Luckily CCP disagrees. --- WOLFY is recruiting!
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.05 20:07:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 05/07/2009 20:07:25 And you want to have sharded servers for eve. Luckily CCP disagrees.
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InAkTiV
Caldari Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.05 21:50:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Furb Killer So if they are a helping hand, how about making them actually help? And no keeping 2 logistics (or in 0.5/0.6/maybe also higher one passive tanked drake/nighthawk/vulture) busy is not what i call helping.
First you say, 0,5/0,6 or even higher, then you go to say maybe only 0,6 if a NH, then to maybe a Drake can do it in 0,5..
How can you complain about something you don't have a clue about Furb ?
Take a NH and tank 7 FW police spawns in 0,6 Furb Killer, try it our for yourself, instead of just whining about something you have no idea about.
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InAkTiV
Caldari Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.05 21:56:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: You know what? By not making the navy more powerful than they currently are, I'm pretty sure the devs actually *had* something like this in the mind from the get-go... Shocking, ainnit?
And obviously devs also planned to make large artillery pointless.
The difference between FW and normal wardec is that in FW the high secs are kinda protected. You want to remove that protection, so why not just do normal wardecs and leave FW. Then we can have FW where npcs actually do something usefull
Ohh and hey you said it yourself here, i wanna let you read it again, and maybe you can figure it out for yourself ?? You do seem to know what FW is about, and yes you are kinda protected in High sec. Not so much in 0,5 as in 0,6 tho..
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Tosi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:41:00 -
[114]
I WANT TO MAKE MISSIONS IN DODIXIE --- BM facts. -Bad Messenger doesn't actually write on forums, the words assemble themselves out of fear. -When God said "Let there be light" Bad Messenger said "Say please."
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Shacz
Dancing Fortune
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:52:00 -
[115]
Yes, you are only kinda protected in highsec. That is the way it was intended, with the navy response in low security highsec being slow and weak enough to allow hit-and-run attacks against the overly complacent. The navy can also be tanked by specialized setups, although this is still risky as the opposing side can show up at your tanking safespot and disrupt it.
However, this particular strategy is extremely clever in its method of protecting the navy tankers. So much so that I am sure that it wasn't considered by CCP in its implementation of faction navy defense. A FW force that wants to break up a camp that uses this does not have the option of going after the navy tankers; they are simply unscannable and unreachable. The fight might as well take place in lowsec, for all the help that the navy provides. The cost for the invaders to set this up? Two alts left AFK with their remote reps and ECCM running.
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X Gallentius
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.07.06 04:06:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Shacz stuff....
At worst, they shut down one lousy system out of 100's available for carebear activities.
Adapt. Please.
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Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.07.06 05:18:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Shacz A FW force that wants to break up a camp that uses this does not have the option of going after the navy tankers; they are simply unscannable and unreachable. The fight might as well take place in lowsec, for all the help that the navy provides. The cost for the invaders to set this up? Two alts left AFK with their remote reps and ECCM running.
AFAIK this is a lie. At least in higher security high-sec space the navy tankers cannot be made unscannable. --- WOLFY is recruiting!
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Shacz
Dancing Fortune
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Posted - 2009.07.06 06:51:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Raimo AFAIK this is a lie. At least in higher security high-sec space the navy tankers cannot be made unscannable.
It is quite true for 0.5 systems. Two Guardians using high slots for remote cap and rep and low slots for armor hardeners can tank the navy indefinitely. With their two mid slots, they can use an ECCM and a projected ECCM to both get a signal strength of around 76.5 - with a signature radius of only 70m.
They might be able to get it to work in a 0.6 system by adding more unscannable Guardians, but even in one "lousy" 0.5 system the damage that can be caused is considerable. Consider Litiura, a 0.5 system which is the only highsec link between Empire space and Black Rise plus half of Lonetrek. It has a convenient link to lowsec, so it's easy accessible. A well-prepared camp there can rack up a lot of unsuspecting kills.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 07:13:00 -
[119]
Quote: the navy response in low security highsec being slow and weak enough to allow hit-and-run attacks against the overly comp
And that is exactly what we dont want to change. However raimo prefers to go emo above reading what others write.
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2009.07.06 09:37:00 -
[120]
lol @ bull**** mechanics
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