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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 12:47:00 -
[1]
Changing this bonus to also apply to remote reps would be a great way to boost these ships IMO.
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Khornne
Caldari Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.07.04 12:52:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Malcanis Changing this bonus to also apply to remote reps would be a great way to boost these ships IMO.
lol, you aren't serious. Are you?
-- Khornne's Teamspeak Server Service |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.07.04 13:10:00 -
[3]
Interesting idea tbh, but taking into account those ships are pretty much always the ones with same ammount of turret slots as they have high slots, giving such bonus would make the whole thing rather self countering. That's without any balancing problems that might arise that I really don't have the foresight to predict.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.04 13:14:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Vrabac Interesting idea tbh, but taking into account those ships are pretty much always the ones with same ammount of turret slots as they have high slots, giving such bonus would make the whole thing rather self countering. That's without any balancing problems that might arise that I really don't have the foresight to predict.
hmm.... imagine a horde of hypes with 6 turrets and 2 RR's boosted by such bonus.
shivers? yes I had them too. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 13:28:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vrabac Interesting idea tbh, but taking into account those ships are pretty much always the ones with same ammount of turret slots as they have high slots, giving such bonus would make the whole thing rather self countering. That's without any balancing problems that might arise that I really don't have the foresight to predict.
Well the Myrmidon does spring to mind as a counter-example, but given that what you say is generally true, how could there be balancing problems?
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2009.07.04 13:56:00 -
[6]
As a concept, i like the idea. It would even out the solo-gang relation between active and buffer tanks.
As others have mentioned though, there are other balancing factors that need to be considered, in terms of the ships.
Looking at several of the ships with repping bonuses they still do fairly well. The so called "Minmatar issue" comes to mind when people have a habit of not weighing in all aspects of the ship and just some of the more prominent features. Such comparisons tend to make Minmatar ships look bad while they in reality fare very well overall.
Minmatar tend to have their extra slots, mobility and fitting options as balancing factors and Gallente (who also have several notable ships with repping bonuses) tend to have their sizable drone bays without much penalty in slots. That means many of the ships with repping bonuses are not useless outside of an active tank (as they usually have slots and fitting to consider options). The bonus provide another option. Even though i can understand that it may be annoying to have bonuses you don't fully utilize at all times; that apply to alot of ships with bonuses that are not streamlined.
Capacitor bonuses on Laser ships. Kinetic bonuses on Missile ships and the combination of tank and range bonuses etc. Many of these are commonly adressed issues. Hammering them out would be nice indeed, but albeit annoying, they are balancing factors for each ship that need to be taken into consideration with any prospect changes.
In summary, i like the idea - but tread lightly.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.07.04 13:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Grimpak
hmm.... imagine a horde of hypes with 6 turrets and 2 RR's boosted by such bonus.
shivers? yes I had them too.
You do realize that it has about the same tank as Abaddons in the same setup?
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.07.04 14:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Malcanis Changing this bonus to also apply to remote reps would be a great way to boost these ships IMO.
... and then we'd never need to use a Logistics ship again. |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.07.04 14:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Vrabac Interesting idea tbh, but taking into account those ships are pretty much always the ones with same ammount of turret slots as they have high slots, giving such bonus would make the whole thing rather self countering. That's without any balancing problems that might arise that I really don't have the foresight to predict.
Well the Myrmidon does spring to mind as a counter-example, but given that what you say is generally true, how could there be balancing problems?
I meant it's a radical change and might make things overpowered if not thought of carefully.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.07.04 14:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Noisrevbus Minmatar tend to have their extra slots, mobility and fitting options as balancing factors
Extra slots? All Minmatar get is extra highs at the cost of extra mids/lows and DPS, which is bad tradeoff (see Dominix/Scorpion as proof that highs are the least valuable slots). The only semi-common case of extra slots is Amarr.
Fitting options? They have autocannons and that's it. Anyone can fit gimped guns to get your "options", just minmatar do it often because the higher tier guns are totally not worth it if they are not simply worse. Worst capacitors, low powergrids on anything remotely fast and low CPU overall.
Mobility? In battleship class? Any race HAC/CS is more mobile, usurping the territory of speed at cost of DPS.
None sane ever disputed the pros of minmatar cruiser class hulls. Just that BSs are subpar, projectiles have low DPS (or crippling stats with T2 high damage lol-ammo, which is pretty much useless for BSs) and artillery is too much prenerfed.
I agree that hyperion gets good base stats as compensation for lousy reping bonus, but slightly better speed, scan resolution and capacitor amount means nothing given the environment it operates in. Besides, resist bonus is almost the same for local repper and vastly better for everything else.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 14:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Malcanis Changing this bonus to also apply to remote reps would be a great way to boost these ships IMO.
... and then we'd never need to use a Logistics ship again.
You mean like the way we never used long range HACs again after the first sniper BS fit was developed?
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Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.04 15:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Malcanis You mean like the way we never used long range HACs again after the first sniper BS fit was developed?
Never expected such an ignorant comment from vp tbh, ever. -------------------------
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.07.04 15:41:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Malcanis Changing this bonus to also apply to remote reps would be a great way to boost these ships IMO.
... and then we'd never need to use a Logistics ship again.
You mean like the way we never used long range HACs again after the first sniper BS fit was developed?
The only bonus Logistics get is for remote repping. They are rather useless in combat otherwise. In fact, if a fleet is relying on Logistics, the simple act of popping them could likely cripple the fleet.
If remote repping were boosted on combat ships, no one would use Logistics anymore. They'd have a proper tank, possibly DPS as well, and remote repping to boot.
There are soldiers, and there are field medics. |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.07.04 16:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon The only bonus Logistics get is for remote repping. They are rather useless in combat otherwise. In fact, if a fleet is relying on Logistics, the simple act of popping them could likely cripple the fleet.
If remote repping were boosted on combat ships, no one would use Logistics anymore. They'd have a proper tank, possibly DPS as well, and remote repping to boot.
There are soldiers, and there are field medics.
Not to mention they'd be DD proof and harder to jam
I still dont get how its easier to fit a module that repairs someone else (660 PG) than it is to fit a module that repairs myself (2300 PG) and the one that helps me out does less too!
Can i put on the remote armor repair module and turn it around?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 16:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Malcanis Changing this bonus to also apply to remote reps would be a great way to boost these ships IMO.
... and then we'd never need to use a Logistics ship again.
You mean like the way we never used long range HACs again after the first sniper BS fit was developed?
The only bonus Logistics get is for remote repping. They are rather useless in combat otherwise. In fact, if a fleet is relying on Logistics, the simple act of popping them could likely cripple the fleet.
If remote repping were boosted on combat ships, no one would use Logistics anymore. They'd have a proper tank, possibly DPS as well, and remote repping to boot.
There are soldiers, and there are field medics.
I think you kind of missed my point. Incidentally, battleships can already remote rep. Assuming that 2 battleships and 2 battlecruisers were able to rep a maximum of 37.5% more effectively - with no range or cap bonuses, with slower targetting speed, with less agility, with less speed - would that obselete the Logistics Class?
I submit that it would not, any more than the Apoc, with it's drone bay, greatly superior weapon and targetting range, DPS and tank obsoletes the Zealot even though the Zealot exists purely as a long range laser platform.
Battleships remote-rep already; Logistics ships are still very welcome. Letting 2 currently very under-represented BS participate wont make Logistics pilots remotely useless. Saying that "no-one would use Logistics any more" is nonsensical.
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Edarti
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Posted - 2009.07.04 17:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Azuse
Originally by: Malcanis You mean like the way we never used long range HACs again after the first sniper BS fit was developed?
Never expected such an ignorant comment from vp tbh, ever.
Failure to detect sarcasm.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 17:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Azuse
Originally by: Malcanis You mean like the way we never used long range HACs again after the first sniper BS fit was developed?
Never expected such an ignorant comment from vp tbh, ever.
EvE is full of surprises.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.04 18:04:00 -
[18]
Eos. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.04 22:24:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Rastigan on 04/07/2009 22:25:04 Edited by: Rastigan on 04/07/2009 22:24:49 The main thing ships with the 7.5% repper bonus have to complain about is that it reps roughly (like 1-3% more) the same as a ship with a 5% resist bonus, of course with out the added benefit higher resists which would mean more buffer tank, more remote repping effectiveness or passive shield regen(for shield tankers).
I really dont know what would be the best way to fix it, raise the repper bonus to 8-10% ? lower the repper bonus to 5% and add a -5% cap usage bonus per level.
One day the Hyperion will serve a purpose....
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Kazang
Gallente Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2009.07.05 00:33:00 -
[20]
Logistics EOS would be sexy (with a proper drone bay *shakes fist at ccp*), but apart from that i dont think its a good idea really. I can't think how it would be very usefull for the other rep bonused ships, myrm would be like a baby EOS but thats about the only thing i can think of. But the ships other than that (hyperion, astarte, brutix, etc) i cant see getting any benefit from the extra bonus.
Kazang
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.07.05 00:55:00 -
[21]
The idea is solid, the trouble is implementing it without taking over the role of logistics ships.
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