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Menalle
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Posted - 2003.06.22 12:33:00 -
[1]
This was taken from on of the forums of the biomass cartel (FoA, Da-Dragons and M3G4).
It's no wonder their corp members are revolting.
This thread is to clear everything up about how things are and how they are going to be. This isn't up for debate because its a must and if people cain't see that they should go back to school. As the CEO - its my job to set things straight. Often - too many times, people question when things shouldn't be questions. All this does is harm the corp - and there is a time and place for everything.
Unity From now on the entire cartel will be working in unity. That means we will mine togeather in every way. We may be hauling what they mine and they may be hauling what we mine. This is happening so all the corps remain productive. This also means we got to be organize and move as a team and move along the belts togeather. This means a senior of Da-Dragons may be telling the other allies where to go and they may be telling us where to go. Therefor, if a senior tells you something - follow it. Tank, Sinister, Smoked, Sara, and myself all know what needs to be done. Its your job to trust their judgement. This basically means that you do not intervene in their conversations. If you question their judgement you question it up to their face. It is that simple. When a leader calls a front to attack, nobody should question if thats ok since the flank needs to act quickly and if members are second guesing - you screwed the unity you screwed the mission. Also I relize we are new to becomming warlike and building & fighting. So I going to say how things are and how they will be.
Loot From piret NPCs during mining, piret hunts, and war- you can not take the loot. You can not look at what's in there and you should not approach it. Why? Because if people move towards the loot - and more enemies jump in - we just lost something more valueable. During mining, only haulers may pick up the loot. If we are fighting other players - that loot may not be pick up till a senior officer says. It is that simple - this is for your own protection. It also ensures that nothing is taken and some arn't getting a fare share. Again, its the senior officer will - they may be loot and we may need to leave it. Because in war, its the abilitiy to move your troops effectivly without loosing any that creates the victor. The only way this happens if the troops give obedence to the senior officers.
Iteams From now on - the corp will pay for your skills. This means the corp provides for all your needs. It also means there is no reason for you to sell iteams. Specially with loot, do not sell iteams unless instructed to do so. Thoes iteams serv us better if we can equipt them and fire them. Rare iteams should never be sold. The more the corp has, the better we can do. If we need thoes iteams in the future - it is just going to cast us a lot more money. Also, iteams should not be un-used. Often, people want to keep valueable rares even though it may not serv them. If your not using the iteams - give it back to the corp to be re-distributed. That is how ships are and why not iteams. After all ships are iteams.
That is all, and again - this is how it should and will be. The corp acts independently sometimes and that will stop.
Like someone else said, communism does not work.
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Aloysia Leyshon
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Posted - 2003.06.22 12:46:00 -
[2]
Ok, so basically the corp provides you with everything you need. You hand over everything you own to the corp. The corp then distributes that to whomever it see fits in terms of need. That my friend is communisme, and yet you write in the bottom that it does not work?
The state, here corp, is all. The individuals are nothing in it aside from workhorses that can enrich the bosses. Sure they recive ships, modules but their personal freedom is also taken. You must do what any senior says, do not think or act by yourself. Follow orders and be a good citizen, here corp member.
Before you write "communisme does not work" you need to learn what it is. Let see how long it takes before you New Soviet Union collapses.
Edit: This post is mostly directed at thoe that originally made the post in the Biomass Cartel forum, not so much the poster here. It does not seem to be his/her oppinion.
Edited by: Aloysia Leyshon on 22/06/2003 12:47:48 ------------------------------------------------ "Your little princess is my little ****" |
Menalle
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Posted - 2003.06.22 13:16:00 -
[3]
ok, lets forget about the communism part. Don't want to go there.
But whats screwed up about their manegment style is that they (the ceo's and favorites) don't hold up their end of the bargin. All they care about is their own reputations at the expence of their lower ranking corp members. FoA's downfall is an example of the people getting tired of working for these brats. |
Singular
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Posted - 2003.06.22 13:35:00 -
[4]
Lol, this will work until these players figure out they are actually working for some 16 year old kid in his mom's basement, not having fun.
Im Yo Huckleberreh |
Elithiomel
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Posted - 2003.06.22 14:20:00 -
[5]
I'd have thought the only people who would sign up with or stay with a corp/cartel like this would be the naive and the stupid. --------------------------------------------- Engineers motto; If it doesn't fit, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway. |
Darodem
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Posted - 2003.06.22 14:36:00 -
[6]
Quote: would be the naive and the stupid
Welcome to the human race my brother :)
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Benedic
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Posted - 2003.06.22 16:05:00 -
[7]
I read that first post and all I could think was "what a bunch of facist little *****es!". If someone talked to me like that in RL not only would they get their jaw broken but will have their head smashed into the nearest wall repetedly. I bet there are no Aussies in them Corps, cause if there was the so called "senior's" would be told to f--k off quick smart, it wouldnt be put up with. Honestly, if any of the people in them corps are reading this, please dont put up with crap like that. Life is to short to put up with the idiots who seem to be running them Corps and quite frankly I'm suprised you would be giving them little tyrents the light of day. There is plenty of better corps out there, and some of them are pirate ones as well. Hell join m0o if you want, even them I hear are nothing lke that and are out to have a bit of fun, not feed the the ego's of a bunch of teenagers.
Peace Out!
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Avatar
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Posted - 2003.06.22 16:08:00 -
[8]
i think its more about cooperation. When we mine collectively we do it because we WANT the corp to succeed, not because some 'senior office' 7 years my junior, is telling us to.
Edited by: Avatar on 22/06/2003 16:08:32
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Sara Summer
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Posted - 2003.06.22 17:41:00 -
[9]
Experimenting what is the best thing to do to have a good gestion in the corporation isnt a bad way. Communist have the advantage of putthing all the ressources to make what the corp need... at the price of the individual. And the capitaliste isnt much better the peopel are working for themself and only for them.. making the corp near useless... trying to have a good balance between this 2 forms of gouvernement will be the best thing to do. ------------------------------------------
Power is strength, Knowledge is power |
Karma
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Posted - 2003.06.22 18:15:00 -
[10]
... I was struck by how very joyless it must be to be in that corp...
exercise your brain a little and think 'that might be fun to try out' about something .. anything.. and get your head chewed out by your 'superiors' :P
... well, it also has a positive thing.. it reaffirms my conviction to stay a freelancer ;)
... and last but not least: "Like someone else said, communism does not work."
don't look now, but your ignorance is showing.
don't try to seem smart by using a quote you (obviously) don't even understand the basics of.
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Setec
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Posted - 2003.06.22 18:22:00 -
[11]
I resent the fact that you're saying this is "an example of how pirate corps run." Really it's an example of how crappy corps run, pirate or not. I'm the CEO of a pirate corp and I allow all our members to have an unlimited amount of personal freedom and possession. The corp account is only used for paying factory rent and such. Everyone's expected to put what they don't need in the corp hangar and allowed to take whatever they do need from it. Money is split between those who helped earn it in proportion to the time they spent helping. There are no formal titles or divisions and very few rules. So far nobody has voiced any complaints about how things work. ___________________________________________
Space Invaders website: http://www.si-corp.net |
Menalle
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Posted - 2003.06.22 19:00:00 -
[12]
You're right Setec. The title of the topic sould have been... How a crapy corp is run. Just happens that these guys are pirates. Sorry about that, but I would not doubt that most pirate corps tend to have leadership like that.
Edited by: Menalle on 22/06/2003 19:06:19 |
Axor Thormgrost
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Posted - 2003.06.22 19:23:00 -
[13]
I have to say though that there is Two Problems they are trying to Address....
1. That the Corps cannot make money unless the Members work together.
2. In Battle....you CANNOT 2nd Guess your Commander...to do so is death and every military man here will tell you that. If the Lt. says Charge that Implacement by god you do it. If you dont, you and your whole Division may die for not doing it.
Everyone, try not to criticize without thinking about what he said.... You do have to work together and you do have to have some sort of Heirarchy in any big group. A Military like Corp may be the Only one that Will really work Long term if they get very large at all.
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Scrapyard Jack
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Posted - 2003.06.22 19:27:00 -
[14]
ehehehe!
Some corps are great to be in!
Scrapyard Jack loves his corp! Scrapyard Jack loves his CEO! Scrapyard Jack IS his CEO!
ehehehe Scrapyard Jack only made a corporation for the purdy multi-layered corporation hangar!
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Hasek
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Posted - 2003.06.22 20:01:00 -
[15]
scrapyard jack: plz gimme some of that waky weed ur growing in tht huge corp hanger u have all by yourself....
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Blaxx
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Posted - 2003.06.22 20:34:00 -
[16]
Well you know what the answer is...
Come join a REAL, and well run pirate corporation. Bandits Inc. is building itself into a small friendly corporation for sociable outlaws. We may break the law, but that doesn't mean we're bad people more an alternative set of lifestyle priorities!
Look foward to seeing you around, pop in for a glass of spiced wine if you're in the neighbourhood.
Edited by: Blaxx on 22/06/2003 20:35:06
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Scrapyard Jack
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Posted - 2003.06.22 21:52:00 -
[17]
ehehehe Hasek!
Only available in Curse region!
Bargain price for forum readers!
Tell Scrapyard Jack that Scrapyard Jack sent ya!
ehehehe!
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Madismaxis
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Posted - 2003.06.23 00:34:00 -
[18]
ummm lol
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Takeshi
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Posted - 2003.06.23 01:02:00 -
[19]
Boy am I glad I left Da-Dragons. Deaz, Sara, and Slim were turning psycho before, now they are flippin nuts. Whatever happened to all that crap you used to spout to us members? Like how we could do whatever we wanted to do? I can't wait to shoot the ones doing this down in battle... But I guess this is what happens when you have a kid in charge....
Edited by: Takeshi on 23/06/2003 01:03:09
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Sara Summer
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Posted - 2003.06.23 17:36:00 -
[20]
Hey Takeshi its saden me that you have a bad opinion of me... I'm still trying the best i can do for the members and what would be the best.
But like that some great philosoph said you need all king of people to make a world and you cant please everyone. Open your mind and look at other people instide of yourself.
Most people are thinking only for themself and that what make a group of humain an instable group. Still we are not mindless creature all people want to be himself and make us great.... but still being less careful of ourself would make a group more efficent.
Oh boy i think i will put away that herbs for some times :)
P.S. Hey its a game... if i doesnt work we just need to restart and having fun again. Don't take game seriously and you will see all the fun your missing ------------------------------------------
Power is strength, Knowledge is power |
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Vachir
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Posted - 2003.06.23 18:46:00 -
[21]
Slightly OT, but I think near pure capitalism is probably the best structure for pirate corps. It directly motivates indivuduals to perform well, while still providing means for group interaction as teamwork provides better individual gains in general.
This example is more of a corporate structure than a communist one. Employees work for the management, and get paid accordingly, though as this document was really lacking in terms of specifics, I'd guess that this organization does not have a very well established infrastructure, and may very well fall appart due to dissagreements between members and management.
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Ozium
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Posted - 2003.06.24 06:56:00 -
[22]
It's Da-Dragons, they spam our corp every night begging us to join them with the offer of teaching us how to be good fighters...
I guess the fact they keep losing ships to us is a hint that we are really desperate to learn how to own like them!
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Animal Mother
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Posted - 2003.06.24 14:18:00 -
[23]
Poor dumb bastards don't even know they're not free. This is a game about capitalism and freedom. If they choose to throw away their freedom then I say "HAHA!"
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Griskin Thor
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Posted - 2003.06.25 07:20:00 -
[24]
Unity: Only makes sense in a multi-corp mining operation to have designated miners, haulers, and supervisors. The supervisors would be expected to direct operations, and the miners and haulers would be expected to follow their instructions. Not much to argue here.
Loot: Pretty much definies what should be standard operating procedures for any corp in a warfare situation. Any organized combat force should either be ignoring loot until after the conflict is over or have indivuduals whose job it is to pick up such loot. Even in mining ops it makes much more sense for designated haulers to pick up whatever loot might pop up than to have miners breaking off their mining to pick it up.
Items: Again, this makes sense in a corp that is expecting to provide equipment to it's members. I'd be a bit ticked if I was trying to make sure all the combat pilots in my corp had the best loot-drop weapon upgrades and found out someone had sold half a dozen to buy himself some more mining drones. Also makes sense for such items to be kept in a corporate pool rather than in individual hangars, so that they can be put to use by online players instead of sitting unused in an offline hangar.
Where it all goes wrong is in the phrasing and implementation, I think. The ideas are sound, but the presentation sucks. The spelling errors alone (iteams? I thought they meant some sort of squad organization. I-Teams, like the A-Team only further down the alphabet) give one reason to doubt the competence of the leadership making these demands. There's no sense of professionalism or organizational ability here to inspire one to adhere to these dictates.
This kind of organization can work. Communal property, the corp using the profits of it's members to benfit everyone, it all works. The problem with it (the same problem that faces communist systems in the real world) is that it relies heavily on strong, competent and above all benevolent leadership.. not the sort you're likely to find running a pirate corp. Joining this sort of organization doesn't have to mean giving up all freedoms, or giving all your money to a corrupt CEO while you stay stuck in a Probe digging at rocks every minute you're in game. But the way this document is written certainly implies thats how it is in this corp.
Griskin Thor Chief Operations Officer >Lightwave Enterprises<
- "Oh yeah? Well, back in my day we had to mine omber with our teeth! And walk back to the station to sell it. Up the gravity well. Both ways!" |
Charlatan
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Posted - 2003.06.25 07:34:00 -
[25]
There is nothing inherently "communist" about corps pooling assets. For example, a company like Microsoft pools the value generated by its employees to do things like lease office space and put computer on every employee's desk. Managers in turn have to decide how much to pay employees for their work. And any intellectual property created during working hours is property of Microsoft and not its individual employees. It simply wouldn't be efficient if on your first day of work you had to buy your own computer, lease your own cubicle and pay the office manager for use of the printer. Nor would it make sense if, say, the FedEx guy had to pay for his own truck.
So yes, it is well within the bounds of capitalism for the employees to contribute the fruits of their labor and for the corporation to compensate them as it sees fit. Outside of the machinations of CCP, there is no planned economy in eve and as such there is no such thing as a "communist" corporation. |
Ehxo
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Posted - 2003.06.25 08:10:00 -
[26]
This is obviously the post of somoeone that left the cartel in bad terms... names come to mind but I won't give any.
To make something clear, know that all the members that we currently have as a part of it were totally informed of those rules before hand and gladly accepted with a good team spirit.
The members that leave are usually the ones for which it doesn't click at all.
On a side note, FoA didn't fall... they merged.
Communism DO work very well providing that the members aren't greedy bastards themselves.
In opposition to other types of corp with a paycheck system and divisiona and ranks and such, we do treat everybody as equal, providing that they all have a good team spirit and show it. I find it much more pleasant to play in a corp that feels like a big gang of friends, rather than a real life corporation for which you have to work a steady shift to get a paycheck.
If you felt left alone, then perhaps "some" of the management did have something to work on, or perhaps that YOU had something to work on, or that this type of corp didn't match your gameplay.
Comunist corps aren't meant for solo players.
So before you start generalising about the whole cartel, maybe you should be the one growing up and realising that if it didn't please you in the first place, you just had to say so and leave, no harm done.
All the recruits I've been interviewing (yes, believe it or not, we do receive so much applications that we can't supply fast enough...) in the last few days are all eager to be part of this system, and they are all enjoying the "team play" aspect of this system.
Before you start saying that this type of corp is the "****ty" type and that it's bound to fail, think about the different types of gamers, and take a look at the number of members we have... which by the way, are all ACTIVE members, and not stupid alts or players that play once a week.
You'll see that a lot of people actually enjoy this type of corp very much, and it's not because they are brown noses...
And finally, to reply to Griskin Thor:
Our CEO's and all the senior members are far from corrupted and greedy. Actually, our CEO's always play with us and do as much crappy work (hauling ore and such in a mining op) as any other member, and they aren't using all the best gear for themselves, au contraire. They are the first ones to downgrade their ship or equipment if another member that needs more presents himself. Comunism doesn't work well in real life because you can't just "choose your people" like you can in a copr in eve. In real life, if a small part of the population doesn't want communism, you can't just kill them or throw them out of the country... same for corrupted government members... but in an ingame corp, we do thorough interviews first hand and make sure that the member will fit in, and will be happy in our corp/cartel. And if a member joined and doesn't like it eventually, or we see that he's a solo player that will never fit in this type of corp, well... it's the door and that's it, we still have plenty of willing members that enjoy being there for what the corp is.
Edit: and yes, I agree with you and Vyg when you say that it wasn't well written at all. There's a much better way to explain our ideals than how it was put on the board.
Edited by: Ehxo on 25/06/2003 08:58:54
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Vyg
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Posted - 2003.06.25 08:44:00 -
[27]
Griskin has it nailed about "presentation". He's wrong about his interpretation of the capability of our leadership but he's 100% on the mark that whoever wrote that manifesto blows donkey balls - across the board. They should hand over the pen to someone a bit more competetant w/ writing and someone possessing a degree of tact.
Edited by: Vyg on 25/06/2003 08:45:53 ----- 'I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.' - Jack Handey's Deep Thoughts |
DeaZ
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Posted - 2003.06.25 22:39:00 -
[28]
Heh, well first give me a break since I am native to deutch and not english. Second - the last line wasn't there... that was added. Third- this isn't our "policys" - it was a post to address a certain issue. And the supervisors arn't old or favor people, its just one person to lead. You cain't have everyone calling targets while your fighting. You have 1 person doing it. That is how it is.
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Korath
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Posted - 2003.06.26 08:09:00 -
[29]
Quote: This means a senior of Da-Dragons may be telling the other allies where to go and they may be telling us where to go.
It'll be a cold day in hell when someone from another corp starts ordering me around unles their in charge of a multi-corp military operation that I happen to be involved in. :)
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.06.26 09:03:00 -
[30]
A corp should be a mix of both,
Because without order there is chaos, and chaos only leads to destruction.
In certain situations they have to follow orders to cut losses, if you dont you end up loosing a container with 2k crokite because someone didnt followed the order to move away from it when theres a missle incomming.
But we musn't forget this is a game, and that people are playing a game to have fun. So they will soon leave when they arent having fun they seek...
Personal development, and having their own voice in important mathers DO mean alot.
If i would raise a corp i would have a mix of both...
1 hour in every 2 or 3 days for "war games", mining together as a corp some hours a day... with no obligation to join in it.
:) But im happy as it is. ;) __________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
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