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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 07:09:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 07:18:42
Hello,
EVE is a wonderful, challenging game. Yet there is one thing that is starting to p' me off. It is people, who pay too much because of scammers.
I am currently selling some missiles for about 30 ISK each and it is now the second time that someone paid 37,000.00 ISK instead, resulting each time in a payment of millions of ISK for a handful of standard missiles!
Am I complaining about getting rich? No. What I am complaining about is of involuntary scamming of people.
Some people like to set up sell orders with prices of a thousand times higher than the average price and some people choose to buy from them. I can only imagine these players play this game while being drunk or that perhaps the window moves and others to use it against them.
I could live a happy and ignorant live if the payment went to the person who set up the over-prized sell order. However, the game engine rather takes the amounts from the best, lowest offer, but pays the full height of the selected price rather than for what I am asking.
Why is this? Does this have to be this way?
It makes me part of the scam, when I want to be an honest and fair trader. If the system chooses to take from my stock then it shall take it for the price I am asking and not for what the system thinks it needs to give me. I do not want to take part in scamming and the system shall not decide how much I get. And neither do I want people's charity.
The first guy who I told about his over-payment asked for a refund and I gave him his money back. Now another guy paid me about 22 million for a handful of missiles ...
I see this happening on a regular basis, and for much smaller amounts, which I do not bother about or else I would be refunding ISK about every hour. I consider this to be a bug in the transaction system.
Who else has this problem?
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 07:24:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: RaTTuS
I don't consider it a bug as it does stop RMT via he market that way, and I have repaid over payments a few times - it also teaches people how to use the market properly ...
It is a bug when the system decides to take it of my stock.
Only because I get paid too much does not mean it is not a bug. People would feel different about it if they would get less than they are asking for. The amount by which it is wrong (plus or minus) only makes it a pleasant bug. Still, I do not want to support scamming and bugs like this is one of the reasons why people flood local with scam contracts.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 08:31:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 08:35:23
Originally by: Ambo
never mind...
Sure, if you pay me too much then I will not mind, but it really is not a fair deal for everyone else who is trading with me.
Training a skill like Margin Trading or Accounting has little meaning with this kind of system, that is when the amount of profit becomes unpredictable. With only those two over-payments have I made more money then my entire stock is worth.
This is just wrong and unrealistic, and needs to be fixed.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 09:18:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 09:22:46
Originally by: Future Mutant
So shut up already, take the isk, and feel warm and fuzzy about your role in preventing scammers from benefiting from their actions.
Why don't you shut up? The system is not the one who gets to make the decision. And if EVE is a futuristic space simulation then how come my trading computer is about as dumb as you? Do people not deserve a trading computer on board their ships and stations, which gives them the best price? The troll is you. Or you are one of those scammers who exploit the game this way.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 09:46:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 09:56:20
Originally by: Fekka
Your trading computer can and will show you the best price. You still have to choose to buy at that price. That's just the human factor. You can't prevent people from beeing dumb.
You could prevent it with a better trading computer and at the same time make trading a little bit more challenging when only the price decides.
In fact it is the prices that decides whose stock the items are being taken off, but it was not me who set up the over-priced order. So if you want it to be fair then it is the one who sets up over-priced order who deserves the money. And there is no self-righteousness involved here. It is only a bug.
Do you not see that this invites scams? It allows me to set up two orders, where one has a competitive price and the other is a total scam, but in both cases do I make a profit. Unless of course everyone starts doing it and speculates on that one transaction that is going to pay off the entire other order. In short, it is complete nonsense and because it is a bug that works in some people's favour have many of you not yet made up their mind about it.
When was the last time you walked out of a super market and paid for a pack of carrots the price of a small car? And why would you not ask for a refund? I think EVE is a game too good to support this kind of stupidity.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 09:48:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Midas Man
I can only assume you paid too much for something and are annoyed that you didnt get you isk back
No, I happen to be an honest person - something you are not familiar with.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 10:27:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 10:28:17
Originally by: Fekka
"Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." Some wise man said that a long time ago and it pretty much concludes the whole thread.
Spare me your wisdom. If you want to give me something just donate half of your ISK to me. Thanks.
Until then do I see EVE as a game to have fun with. And I get no fun from receiving huge sums of money from people who did not intend to give them to me, who are glad when they receive a refund and would otherwise have thought of me as some greedy arse. I just do not have the time to go after each one of them, to check if each transaction has actually transferred the right amount of money. If I do not care about it now then I will not get any money back once a bug charges me too much or rewards me with too little.
See it this way. If others are allowed to act stupid and to pay too much, then why does the system reward me when I could set up under-priced orders and still walk away with a huge profit? Under-priced orders are stupid, too.
And what about buy orders? Do they give me less when I try to sell to an under-priced buy order? No, the game does pick the best available price! So stop pretending as if this would be some miracle payment system when it is a bug.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 11:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Midas Man
wrong again, if i right click an item hit sell. typ 0.01 and hit sell. I will sell my product to the highest buy order which could be 1,000,000,000 isk, guess how much i will recieve.... 0.01isk which is exactly what i asked for, no bug no faulty UI just random stupidity from me.
That is not same. I might as well hit "trash item" and I would not count it as a bug.
You just make up one reason after another to cash in. Fine, be a trader with no morals. I choose to be different.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 11:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Fekka
You have a problem with people giving you money and want half my ISK? You really have some issues, Mr...
No, you have issues. I am still waiting for half of your ISK and am only willing to take it from you, because I think you are special and worth making an exception.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 11:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Breaker77
... If you are feeling guilty because some people are not the brightest, then perhaps EVE isn't for you.
Oh, some sure are not the brightest, but I do not think that these are consequently the same who pay too much.
You have now compared it, or at least tried to, with real world money. Tell me, when you go in a shop and are being charged too much do you then not deserve a refund? Markets will give you a refund for when an item was mislabelled, however, they do not charge you extra when the price goes up. Human errors are made all the time, and bugs are human errors, too.
If you like to be a pirate and rob traders then, well, that is your way. I could understand your point of view, but if I want to be an honest trader then why should I not complain about this?
Make your profit the way you want, but do not tell me what to think of this. I think it is a bug and further do I find it immoral to profit from it.
I have yet to see a good argument why this is the right kind of trade. If people are supposed to learn how to use the market then a simple message would be sufficient. It does not need to take millions of ISK of them. And if it is meant to stop scams then why does it cost the wrong people's money or why do they not just get the best price like with buy orders?
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 12:01:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:04:08
Another example of this is:
Go and set up a buy order, which pays 10 ISK per item at station A. And further, at the same time there are several sell orders open that sell the item for less. Let us say 8 and 9 ISK at station B and C.
What happens is that you buy from all sell orders with an item price of 10 ISK regardless of what the sellers are asking. The system lets you not simply set up a buy order while the item is for sale and in reach, and, it does not let you buy the items for the price they are being advertised. Instead, it assumes that you want to buy them for 10 ISK as well are willing to travel to station B and C. It does not assume that you would rather want to buy them for the price their are being offered for or to only set up a buy order for 10 ISK per item at station A.
If you want to set up a buy order for 10 ISK you first need to buy all the cheaper items of the market, one order after another, before you can set up the buy order.
The way it works, and that it works this way, can be in nobody's interest.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 12:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:24:14
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It's designed to mimic a stock market in Rl. But it just so happens to stop laundering through the market.
Does it?
What if I tell you to set up a sell order, and I set up one as well, but far over-priced? I would buy from my own sell order, the item will be taken from your order and you receive the money. There you go. I have given you a huge amount of money.
You only need to have the best order for a short time. Depending on the item could this work with a 99.9% guarantee.
You think it prevents laundering? I think it is a bug.
Besides, CCP probably logs all transactions and for long enough so that no laundering will ever work. So do not think there is a way that any transaction could ever go unnoticed. If they want to they can and will find it. All accounts have transaction logs and journals, and who knows what else CCP has that we only do not see!
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 12:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
You know you can always just give back the difference ?
Meanwhile, they're getting their missile they indicated they were willing to pay millions for....
And I do give back the difference. Next time you better read more carefully.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 12:37:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:44:58
Originally by: LaVista Vista
You think an intended feature is a bug?
You think a bug is an intended feature?
Then tell me, in whose interest are these transactions made when my customers are being treated like drunken idiots and I have no way to predict and calculate my profits?
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 12:49:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:55:16
Originally by: Lord Fitz
They're in your interest. There's no way to tell who you are buying off on the market until after the fact. Customer loyalty is thus worthless. Many of your customers will be drunken idiots, and many of the rest will just be full-time idiots.
No, I have no interest to profit from a mistake someone makes. As I said, I do not bother with the small amounts, but I do care when it sticks out. As such do I call this a bug. If it was not for this "intended feature" then we would not be arguing about it. People would pay exactly the price an item is being offered for and there would be no reason for a debate, a refund or whatever. In one word, it would be just.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 13:17:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 13:19:24
Originally by: flakeys
...
You are a pirate in disguise!! I tell you something, and to help you to become a real outlaw: Give me all your ISK. Once we laugh as a consequence of your mistake of giving all your money to me, and I promise you will get a receipt to prove of having made the biggest mistake in your life and so you can blame yourself, will you be so broke that you start robbing others. 
In the meantime, let others discuss the injustice of this system.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 13:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 14:02:35
Originally by: Midas Man
What is not the same????
Because with buy orders it picks the best price for you automatically and with sell orders it does not.
Just to repeat myself, this is not about buying from the wrong seller or the wrong sell order. I do not care if someone gets it wrong to pick the best price. It would be nice if the system would be smarter, but that is just on the side.
The point is that the item is taken of the best-priced stock, while the price comes from the stock the buyer selected. If a buyer selects the order with a too high price then the buyer should also get the item from the stock he or she selected.
Most orders are not scams, yet this feature gives more credit to the owner of the best-priced order then he or she deserves.
And to call this a fix to prevent scams, while the item is taken from someone else and the ridiculous high price is still being paid cannot be a fix. It should never be paid in this case and if the item is taken of the best-priced stock then the buyer should only pay the best-price, too. If not then the average price. You do not stop money laundry by transferring the money to some other account. People are being made part of the scam or just need to give it back anyway!
For some this is difficult to understand as they only see a plus in their wallet, and others may not dare to ask for a refund ashamed of their mistake. But I do hope that some of you understand this small and rather subtle misbehaviour.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 14:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: flakeys
Ow and , do people still roleplay , damn that's cute.
I am not role playing nor is justice an element of role playing. It may surprise you, but justice is universal! There have been other minor bugs in the market system in the past. For example were some taxes taken off ones account before the transaction and not after as it should be. In a few cases did this make a difference. So, it may just be another one of those odd misbehaviours which need to be straighten out.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:01:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 15:01:16
Originally by: lacretia
After this many posts I am still just trying to figure out what the op is complaining about...
An example:
Seller A is offering 100 items for 10 ISK.
Seller B is offering the same items for 11 ISK and holds 200 of them.
Seller A is has the better price ...
You want to buy 10 items and select to buy from seller B - why does not matter. What matters is that both, seller A and seller B, are in range and both are valid suppliers.
What happens is this:
- You pay 110 ISK for 10 items.
- Seller A loses 10 items, has now 90, and receives 110 ISK.
- Seller B still has 200 items left.
What it means is that seller A not only beats seller B in the competition, because he offers a lower price. He gets rid of his stock, too, while seller B is not selling anything. Instead is seller A getting the money for which seller B is offering his stock.
Not only can seller B not sell his stock, but seller A gets to sell the item for the price of seller B.
To the buyer does this make little difference. I believe both sellers need to be at the same station and that the buyer now does not need to go searching for his 10 items.
So now seller A can have a laugh, because he gets rid of his stock and makes an extra profit.
Seller B most likely never gets wind of it.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Will it be my last? Wait and see~!
Will it be your last? Not if you want to make a point.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 15:54:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:01:29
Originally by: Paul Clavet
The reason why the buyer acts against his own interest DOES matter, because your implication that there might be reasons for his action other than his own clumsiness or ignorance suggests that there is ethical complexity to the issue that does not exist.
That is nonsense. There is no reason why only one seller shall profit from a mistake made by a buyer, which is likely the result of having too many offers.
If anyone deserves to profit of the mistake then it is the seller who got selected. Just like in real-life, when you walk into a shop and when you can get it cheaper from another shop, but just have not found that other shop. Does the shop you do not know about then get to make the deal? No.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Midas Man
What is nonesence is the fact many people have explained that the reason for this is RMT's can easily abuse it. Either you are a RMT and thats why you want this change or your a troll ignoring the answers you have been given and carring on adding nothing further apart from restating a point that has been well and truely refuted many times already this thread.
Oh, really? I have filed it now as a bug. I do not expect you to understand it. I want a more just system, because I get a lot of money this way into my account, which is rightfully not mine. Most I keep, because it is just a small amounts and the sum only piles up. Just sometimes does a larger payment stand out. If you should ever pay me too much and I notice it will you, too, get an e-mail in which I tell you about it. And you will get your money back.
All the best to you. 
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:52:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:55:18
Originally by: Paul Clavet
You also did not address the issues with your proposed solution and the issues it will cause. Most offensive is your ignorance of the effect this will have on the scammers that you so despise... Do you think that this will increase them, or decrease them?
Well, you are wrong. I did mention how to fix it. You only need to think it over. Do not think too much of people making mistakes and deserving to be punished for their mistakes. That is the greed in the people talking. It is not how the world works, really.
And regarding the "Wallstreet market and mine field"-analogy will I include CCP in my prayers tonight.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 19:17:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 19:25:51
Originally by: Zero Uptick
posting in a stealth begging thread
In fact, I do feel like a beggar. I feel like I am receiving charity or a tip.
I am surprised by how anyone can compare this to today's real-world trading, but it would explain the global financial crisis. If it is not your money then why care about who gets how much?
The best comparison I can come up with is that of an ancient fur market, and where people have no concept of maths beyond their ten fingers. Where the size and quality of a fur is being ignored for the sake of coming to a deal, and not to fight over each one, because the only sharp thing each one has is a knife and not so much a sharp mind.
What does not fit into this picture is the accuracy with which each of these transactions are being logged.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 19:49:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 19:53:15
Originally by: Daeva Vios
In fact (lol) you are receiving a tip for the services you provide.
You almost got me there! I shall see it as a tip if I do not want to see it as an intended feature ..., and keep my mouth shut about this bug, right?
(sarcasm)If you really want to get me to your side then you need to bribe me. Let us say half of all your ISK. You will get a receipt, too.(/sarcasm)
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.14 23:51:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 23:55:02
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
Stop. Feeding. Trolls. =P
Stop calling me or whoever a troll. Instead, use your remaining brain cells to explain to me what this feature's intention is. If it is intended to support your greediness then this thread proves that there is no need for that.
You need to give me a better explanation. We are still in Market Discussion and I am aware that I will find more competitors than buyers here. I do not think that it needs much persuasion to get the mass of buyers onto my side when I tell them that they could get a better price and that it would continue to be fair but only the traders wish to keep exploiting them.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.15 05:11:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Whitehound on 15/07/2009 05:13:51
Originally by: Breaker77
I alone have told you 3 times that it's to stop RMT through the market. Others have told you that as well.
Look, only because you tell me this a thousand times does not make it true. I have explained to you how it does not stop it and how it can be used to transfer large sums of money from one account to another. The fact that I and others do get huge sums from almost out of no where is proof enough to see that it does not stop these transfers. So why do you insist that this is its intention when I and others have proof of it not working as you say?
You walk around with a frog on your nose and think that it is part of your face.
These transactions are what they are. They are inaccurate and false, because you have no explanation as to why you get this money.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.15 05:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Drab Cane
By letting the buyer buy at the price he selected, the market honors the buyer's free will. He must have wanted to pay that price, 'cause that's the price he selected.
Why does the market honour a buyer's free will when it comes to his money, but ignores it when it comes to the item?
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.15 08:36:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Whitehound on 15/07/2009 08:42:45
Originally by: CornerStoner
Stop comparing EVE markets to RL markets. ItĘs ridiculous, irrational and irritating.
Despite that you have said that you do not care about how much you pay, at which point nothing more needs to be said, allow me to ask you a question:
Why is it that a rookie ship cannot produce an occasional hit of 15000 points of damage?
I tell you why. Because we consider it to be physically impossible. Just like one cannot blow up a nuclear power plant only by shooting at it with a 9mm pistol. Yet we are only moving pixels across a screen.
Do not tell me that it is ridiculous, irrational and irritating to compare EVE's market to the real world. The rules of the real world we apply to EVE is what makes EVE fun. Only where it becomes a futuristic space simulation do we use science fiction to explain what cannot be explained.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 01:51:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 01:54:57
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
No, you're a troll. Many explanations have been given and you've ignored them. It's all very simple. The question has been asked many times previously, and CCP themselves have stated that it is implemented as they intended. You can read whatever meaning you wish upon that -- several good reasons have been given here. EVE is not about being fair or just, it is about being EVE.
CCP cannot explain it, which is why they say that it is intended. Why do you not ask them what the intention is? It would make it a lot easier. You could give me an explanation and would not have to explain it to yourself as "EVE being EVE". We pay money for this game and at least deserve an answer that makes sense.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 07:04:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 07:05:17
Why am I ignoring the explanations given here? I give an example to help you understand:
With the next extension puts CCP propellers on all ships.
With the explanations you have given me so far would you accept this. I.e., it is the same for everyone, because CCP tells you it is working as intended, and because this is EVE.
You posses the exact same attitude like people, who live in a country with a corrupt government, and where everyone pays bribes, because they have come to accept it as is and think that it is fair and just. And you have the courage to call me an idiot.
Now, either you take part in a discussion and come up with some good explanations or risk getting banned.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 12:00:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Akita T
Ok, ok, so your complaint is that the money goes to the broker with the 30 sell order instead of to the broker with a 27000 sell order ? Pfft. Nonsense. That's a good thing, for many different reasons.
Name the reasons and explain how it is just.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 13:06:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 13:12:18
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
One of them is the "free profit" which is really not something to complain about imho..
I am not complaining about getting some extra profit as I simply keep it and only return the sums that stand out. For the rest of your comment are you taking the thread off its topic. The market does have filtering options and my complaint is not about not being able to pay for an item. I also do not want to take a customer's liberty to pick the wrong price, even when I think it would be a nice feature if it could be avoided, it does not belong into the current discussion. It is only about the item being taken from the seller with the best price, but the price being the one price another seller is advertising his items with.
I give another example. Take these two scenarios:
1.) You have two sellers A & B with prices 10 & 11 ISK.
2.) You have three sellers A, B & C with prices 10, 11 & 1000 ISK.
Why is seller A making more profit in scenario 2.) than in scenario 1.) when he only needed to beat seller B and by 1 ISK?
Because of this do you find sell orders on the market with only a few items but an extremely high price. These items are not meant to be sold, and cannot be bought out, but only serve to confuse the buyers. This is an abuse. This has nothing to do with fair competition or having a buyer's interest in mind any more.
Now add two more scenario:
3.) You have one seller, seller A, with a price of 10 ISK.
4.) You have sellers A & B with prices 10.00 & 10.01 ISK.
For the seller in scenario 3.) to profit like seller A in the first two scenarios would it require him to create an artificial competition, or to increase the price, which is the accepted practise (demand and offer). In scenario 4.) would seller A need to use a fake sell order, because he cannot increase his price, or else would lose in the competition.
No matter how I turn and twist it around do I not get a 100% fair and just competition, and one which is in the interest of the buyer. The concept of markets and trading is as old as civilization itself and is meant to be fair and just.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Midas Man
Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer.
No, not if a competitor beats your prices.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Mad Maulkin
and in your example with the sellers it wouyld not matter with or without seller c, as you tell it cause they'd allway buy from seller a even if they try to buy from seller b...
No, it does matter. I do get an extra profit. What you want is that it is just for some and one person at a time. What I want is that it is just for all and at all times. Justice is not bound to the seller who wins in the competition.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:36:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mad Maulkin
a store will not tell you "nonono they sell it cheaper across the street, you must go over there". A competitor with a cheaper price wont help you unless you choose to buy from them..
There is a difference. You see all the prices in front of you. There are no hidden prices and no one automatically tells you from where to get it cheaper. But you do get the item from the stock of the seller across the street and you pay him the money. You do not give your money to the shop you are in or to the broker from whom you ordered with.
My transaction log as seller then shows me from whom I am getting my money, how much I have been paid and the items I have transferred to the buyer's hangar. There is no man in the middle.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mad Maulkin
Yes it is!! the seller with the lowest offer wins the bid! he just gets paied what the buyer is willing to buy! its waht you have been saying the whole time!!!!
No, one cannot win or buy justice.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 15:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Midas Man
1) Yes One can win Justice in a court case.
and
2) Yes One can buy Justice in the corrupt country example you give above.
1) No, you win your right in a court, but you do not win justice.
2) Justice that can be bought is not justice, because it favours the one who has the most money.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 18:18:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 18:25:18
Originally by: Midas Man
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Hmm if the system works as intended dont this topic still belong in market discussion?
I wouldn't say so seeing as the op is suggesting changes to the current system
I am not suggesting immediate changes. I want to understand the intention of this "working as intended feature" and to point out the injustice it creates.
Market Discussions is not the right place any more, because no one could give a meaningful answer and it has turned out to be more of a bomb shell than a topic that can actually be discussed in MD. So the topic has moved on into the forum for the discussion of features and ideas. It is what I guess. The topic does not need to have a home to be discussed.
Regarding the RMTs (real money transfers) do I not care about CCP. This is an outside problem, one that is entirely CCP's problem and I am playing a game. I pay my subscription and have no business with ISK sellers. I dislike them a lot. They have ruined the local channel of some systems and now appear to have managed to corrupted the market system.
I do not believe that this "feature" is intended to stop large sums from getting transferred. They still can be transferred, and if an ISK seller would have wished for a feature to blur their transfers further then CCP would have given them just the feature they needed.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.18 09:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ozone71
This is how many markets work in the real world.
...
Sleep well.
Dear Ozone71, it is not how the world works. You do not get free candy and those who do not ask for more do not get more. This only works for children. Now do you want EVE do be a game for children or do you want the Real Thing(TM)?
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.18 16:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kapila Parthalan
Notice that he he is talking about the markets. Your candy analogy is completely different from the market system in either RL or EVE.
He is not talking about the markets. He patronizes me. I have explained the problem several times now and will not explain it on every page again. Read the thread again. Do not simplify the problem when it requires to see details. If reading and understanding makes you tired then it is not me who needs to take a nap. Either pay attention or do not care about it, but do not tell me what is wrong or right when it is all the same to you.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Seleucid Secundus
We have all explained that it is NOT a problem, MANY times on EVERY page. It is you who should re-read the thread again. Again, there is no problem as many people have told you, we have looked at all the "details". Everyone is tired from reading this because you just dont get it. You should pay attention to what people are saying.
Have you noticed that you havn't convinced anyone? Do you think thats because you're smarter than everyone else, or is it because we are all so ignorant and thick headed?
Who are you trying to fool?
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
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